00:10hello and good evening I'm Melissa Idris welcome to the future is female this is the show where we
00:15find the extraordinary in every woman and I am delighted to introduce my guest today Karen
00:20Chand who is the managing director of the SDG Academy under the United Nations sustainable
00:26development solutions network now in this world Karen also spearheads efforts under the Mission
00:324.7 initiative which aims to transform k-12 education in the Asia-Pacific by making sustainable
00:39development a key feature of national curriculums and what that means we'll find out more so welcome
00:46to the show Karen it's good to have you here thank you Melissa it's my pleasure to be here so
00:51like
00:51many people I think when I hear education for sustainable development I think or I imagine
00:56lessons about climate change but I know it's so much more than that so maybe we can begin our
01:01conversation by you explaining what ESD is what that entails and why it's important today sure
01:09thank you so ESD is education for sustainable development and it goes beyond just the content
01:18or the knowledge part of it so it's not education in sustainable development or about sustainable
01:23development but it's education for sustainable development which means it is the type of
01:30education that can enable sustainable development to occur so the Mission 4.7 initiative is actually to
01:40advance target 7 of SDG 4 so SDG 4 is on quality education and target 7 is on education for
01:51sustainable
01:52development and this includes beyond just education on climate change but every single aspect of
02:02sustainable development that we find across the 17 SDGs so whether it's the the economic the social the
02:09environmental or the governance is this is a new initiative I mean are there elements of education for
02:16sustainable development already embedded in national school curriculums let's take Malaysia for example
02:22yeah so it is not a new initiative in fact it's something that has existed for I would say more
02:28than a decade
02:31because there have been elements of sustainable development already incorporated and if we look
02:39at the the the Malaysian education system the curriculum was last revised in 2017 okay and
02:46when that was done it was already after the SDGs had been adopted and there were changes that were made
02:54in the curriculum mostly in science and mostly to do with things like climate change and environmental destruction
03:01but it was never really packaged or or communicated as sustainable development it was just new content that was added
03:11um and to go along with that the content was added but some of the research that we did to
03:19determine the
03:20status of education for sustainable development in Malaysia actually revealed that even though content was added
03:27um a missing element was the capacity building of educators to be able to deliver that content
03:36um in the best way possible you're referring to the report that you put out on this so can you
03:42tell
03:42me a little bit about that you looked at the curriculum the the education uh curriculum and try to identify
03:49where the gaps were what was missing was that right yes that's correct so we looked at the public school
03:55curriculum across various subjects and we found that indeed there were a lot of elements of sustainable
04:01development that had already been incorporated and um like i said they were mostly in science
04:08but we saw many more opportunities for it to be included in fact um sustainable development can
04:15actually be included in in any subject that you can imagine whether it's math or even languages or history
04:22there's a lot of opportunity to to do that um but the this study that we did and the first
04:31report that we put out
04:33revealed that teachers were not really uh prepared enough or they felt that they were not uh capacity
04:41built to deliver it in the most effective way beyond what is just written as content in textbooks okay okay
04:50first of all i need to know how esd could look like in math and languages and history what what
04:57does that
04:58give me some examples of how it can be for more than just embedded in sciences sure so i think
05:04a very
05:04simple uh example i can think of is when we look at the environmental aspect okay so let's imagine a
05:10school
05:11school is located in a rural area um perhaps close to a river okay and um let's say in the
05:20science subject there is um content about pollution
05:25so they could actually look at something that's happening in their own backyard and maybe for science they could take
05:31samples of the water from the river in math they could look at how they can present the data of
05:39the findings
05:40in perhaps a graphical format in languages they could perhaps write a letter to the local authority
05:48to share the findings with them that could be a language aspect history of course they could look at
05:54you know how the the landscape had changed over time in their own location so this would make um not
06:01only science more interesting but the whole learning experience something that is very interesting but also
06:06something that is part of the learners lived reality what they see on a day-to-day basis and what
06:14i like
06:14about um esd also is that it's kind of rooted in the assumption that the world is changing yes right
06:20um and
06:21how important is it karen that that the esd the principles that underpin education for sustainable
06:28development is made explicit because you said in the beginning back in 2017 when we first had that
06:34it was kind of embedded but it wasn't really you know clearly spelt out that this is esd education for
06:39sustainable development how important is it that we we name it and label it and then integrate it across
06:45disciplines yeah this is really important and our first study actually revealed that one of the
06:50the barriers to it being adopted or practiced was because it wasn't made explicit in previous policies
06:57and how it is made explicit well globally um the unesco makes it explicit uh to all its member countries
07:06so there is a thing called esd 2030 and um all unesco member countries subscribe to that
07:13so this provided a very critical starting point um for malaysia so there is in fact a team already um
07:22within the ministry that has been pursuing this so when sdsn set up its office here in asia it was
07:29it made perfect sense to work with the the malaysian ministry of education uh which we did uh with great
07:36success and um we then like the the first research that we put out um uncovered opportunities for us
07:45to design an intervention which we did and the one that was really uh critical which was what we
07:52addressed was this teacher capacity building program so we designed it we we ran it we piloted it in several
07:59public schools across the country and then we documented the findings of that experience as well
08:05and um that gave us the the um the the foundation to propose um policy
08:16explicitness but you have you have the track record now right you have an um kind of evidence to present
08:21to the ministry so so what does that look like what what did the um interventions for teachers look
08:26like to build their capacity for esd yeah so again it was it's beyond just knowledge it's about how they
08:33can do things differently in their classrooms um it was about trying new uh pedagogical approaches
08:41those that are more action oriented more project based and also um incorporating that transdisciplinarity
08:49that we talked about how we can work across our work with our colleagues across disciplines to make
08:55learning much more holistic and more interesting um and after piloting this with all of that experience
09:04we brought the findings to the ministry and then worked again closely with our colleagues there to
09:10make it part of the new um national education plan that's 2026 to 2035 so now for the first time
09:19there is um a dedicated pillar on education for sustainable development in the transformation plan for
09:27the next 10 years fantastic with the um teachers training essentially was that um is there an ability
09:34to scale up some of the interventions that you designed is would it be possible to scale that at a
09:40national
09:40level yes so um after conducting our pilot we put out our second report and i would say the the
09:49bulk
09:49of that report is how do we now scale this yes so that it's not just a pilot um that
09:55happened in a
09:56pocket but rather it is now meant to be something that can inform national level transformation so it
10:03has to be scaled and the way we designed it is for it to be scaled um to include every
10:10single educator
10:11all 500 000 of them and every school in the country all 10 000 of them wow so esd is
10:18for
10:19every age level of k-12 education not just k-12 education but but actually uh across lifelong learning
10:28because i mean we're talking about educating educators as well we're talking about um capacity building
10:34school leaders we're talking about capacity building people who work in the the ministry machinery
10:41um in the governance system we are also talking about um education that also applies to professional
10:49development of even people in the corporate sector because uh education for sustainable development
10:54actually applies to to anybody yeah you can bring it it's just a transferable skill you can bring it
11:00um everywhere um in life and you know i think in the corporate setting as well with all the esg
11:06initiatives that you you really need to have this literacy embedded um what was the feedback when you
11:12did this um training with the teachers we built capacity was was it good did they feel like they were
11:18being
11:18empowered with this knowledge or um was that kind of more on their plate i think about some of the
11:24the
11:24workload that teachers have to carry nowadays um and i wonder whether we as society ask so much of our
11:32teachers without giving them enough support what was the feedback that you got yeah so first of all
11:39it's really true that they have a lot a lot on their plate um but having said that i think
11:45the part that
11:46really made them feel empowered is the one of the main messages of the training program is that um
11:54learning should be contextualized based on the needs of that particular school and the group of
11:59students that they are dealing with because they would be unique compared to every other school in
12:04the country so um traditionally they may have felt like they were just delivering a one-size-fits-all
12:12like top-down centralized curriculum correct so in this way they could make learning more personalized so
12:18they could feel like they had ownership and and agency in creating this transformation and i think
12:25that is something that's very energizing and very empowering i really love to hear that what was the
12:30um have you heard about feedback from parents um now that we have this you said we have a pillar
12:36now in
12:36the new education blueprint uh what has been some of the feedback that you've heard about whether or not
12:42parents and other stakeholders think that this is as important as as clearly it is those that we have
12:49spoken to all feel like it is um a very welcome transformation because if we look at the disparities
12:56between uh private schooling and public schooling in the country we find that in private schooling
13:03schools actually have a lot of autonomy to do things the way they see fit for their audience
13:08um in in public schools now with with esd this is becoming something that's transferred to them as well
13:17so it is something that actually would um elevate the quality of the education system to make it
13:24something that is much more future relevant um so definitely parents are supportive of it other
13:32stakeholders well if we look at um again if we look at the private sector it's also something that's
13:37very welcome because at the end of the day they will be the beneficiaries of this human capital
13:43that our education system produces it's a long game right you're building the citizens from today
13:49um with the so you've worked with um the government um ministry of education not just i think uh malaysia
13:56you also look at the region as well just based on your experience your observations what what has been
14:02some of the barriers i would say the biggest barriers to
14:07transforming education we talk a lot about education reform everyone has an opinion about it but
14:11this is essentially your your field of work what have you observed about why it is so difficult to
14:17transform our education system um i i like to look at barriers as as opportunities so when we conducted that
14:28second piece of work um we uncovered several um i'll call them enablers okay so the first one
14:37was that policy and direction and now that has been addressed because now it is explicit so that is a
14:45excellent starting point but when you have written policy you still need to implement it and that is usually
14:55where um much more work needs to be done and more support is required so to to complement the national
15:07education plan we have also with um like-minded colleagues uh including the ministry of education
15:14come up with an action plan of how to actually operationalize what is written in the national education plan
15:23um and this um action plan literally spells out not just the what you need to do but how how
15:30do you
15:30actually do it the implementation of it exactly how long will it take how much will it cost who will
15:36it involve um so this gives that very clear pathway um of what to do over the next 10 years
15:44and i think
15:45this having this um having this um as an enabler really addresses that um that barrier or that obstacle
15:53of implementation are we on track are we kind of are we following the plan that's been laid out for
15:58us
15:58well we are still at the starting point so we're at 2026 this is the starting point so we have
16:03to ensure
16:04that we that action plan is well communicated to to all schools and every stakeholder for that matter
16:11uh so that it is um executed as planned well you look at not just the region but now globally
16:19when
16:19you look at um other countries other communities that have embarked on this transformative education
16:25are is there anywhere that you're looking that's doing particularly interesting work well actually
16:30malaysia is one of the first movers that has um such a detailed plan explicit action plan in this in
16:39this area
16:40so um we're very excited about this we think that especially for the developing world this can be an
16:47excellent um example and model and uh we are very excited to to talk about it and to share
16:56malaysia's journey with other countries around the world so i i can only imagine that um education reform
17:03does take a long time uh we're talking you know years it is as i said a long game but
17:09you also have
17:11essentially a deadline for the sdgs you know you're thinking about the 2030 agenda we're just a few years
17:17away from that and you mentioned the esd 2030 as well under unesco how do you think we're doing are
17:24we
17:24are we on track to be meeting some of these um 2030 goals and what do you see i guess
17:30post that 2030
17:32deadline what what happens after 2031 yeah so 2030 is just four years away um esd 2030 is to advance
17:43target 4.7 and target 4.7 says to ensure all learners have been equipped with the knowledge and
17:52skills to enable sustainable development we know that we are far from that um along other targets
17:58of sdg4 which have to do with access to education countries are doing very well including malaysia
18:05but when it comes to 4.7 in particular we are not quite there yet so work has already commenced
18:12on
18:13um the post 2030 agenda for esd as well and um again every country is different so the approaches
18:22and the interventions taken has to be very contextualized um but we are looking to showcase
18:30examples like what's going on in malaysia and other countries and this will be um very valuable material or
18:37resource to enable other countries to also emulate um adapted of course to their own local that is such
18:45a good point because sometimes i think uh some of the i guess criticism even if i can call it
18:50that
18:51the argument is that esd sdgs or esds specifically education for sustainable developments often perceived
18:58to be quite western centric right it's um rooted in western ideologies how do you localize it to
19:07fit into a context that is culturally and societally suitable for societies like malaysia yeah that's
19:14an excellent question actually and it's something that um i actually feel very strongly about that it has
19:19to be localized in fact um there's a lot of um local cultural traditional um even religious knowledge
19:28that can be supportive of the principles of esd for instance well okay if you look at our indigenous
19:36communities for example the orang asli of peninsula malaysia they have a wealth of um ancestral and
19:44cultural traditions and knowledge um that have been passed down from generation to generation that
19:51actually value the land and the environment um and all of this can actually inform the the education
19:58education or rather complement this esd uh principles that are being kind of imposed perceived as imposed from
20:07the western world so it can be a process of of really co-creation of content because at the end
20:14of the day
20:15um the the goals are the same right we all want the same thing but there are many ways to
20:21get there and
20:21if you root it in something that that the learners can really relate to then it becomes um you know
20:31the
20:31the chance of success is that much higher compared to something that they just need to accept yes and
20:38and digest yes are you are you hearing that from young people nowadays i can i can imagine young people
20:44have a whole host of um anxieties about the future right there's climate change there's economic uncertainty
20:50there's conflict happening when you think about the principles of esd and the ability to adapt to a
20:57changing world are they optimistic that you're you know they're being given skills to cope with
21:03what is an ever-changing world they will be optimistic if they feel like these problems are something that
21:10they can help solve yeah um if it is something that they feel powerless about then it could be
21:17something that creates a lot of anxiety for them but um esd is essentially about building competencies in
21:26learners and um unesco has eight of these competencies like um problem solving critical thinking strategic
21:34thinking uh systems thinking and all of this really if you build these competencies in learners you are
21:42empowering them to actually see themselves as change agents who can make a difference who can actually
21:48do something about what's happening around them i also really like the fact that we should be seeing
21:55ourselves as global citizens so it's you know not just what is local but how do we affect things on
22:01a
22:01global stage isn't it yes that's absolutely right um and again these competencies um also involve
22:08things like collaboration so working in partnership with um people around you including around the world
22:15about um connecting with people around the world um about understanding different cultures and this
22:22is then so important for this area of peace which is now something that is very relevant
22:28to all of us um but it's something that learners can actually do something about so so in the time
22:35that we have left i'm curious to know about the sdg academy that you're you're now spearheading what
22:41what is the work what is the vision for this um and where are we at because you know sometimes
22:46um
22:48work in education reform can take a long time and how do you stop yourself from getting demotivated how do
22:54you
22:54keep your motivation up when the work the progress seems slow yeah so work in transforming education
23:01does indeed take a long time but um it's not it's not a question of sitting back and waiting for
23:09things
23:10to happen because there's a lot that needs to be done along the way and um a big part of
23:15this is actually
23:16not just um education of kids you know of of primary and secondary school students but it's also about
23:25um professional uh upskilling of adults yeah right and um this is where the sdg academy comes in so the
23:34sdg academy is sdsn's um education platform and uh one of its main activities is to provide
23:44capacity building uh professional development in essentially any aspect of sustainable development
23:52that you can think of and there are more than 50 courses from environmental issues to economic to
23:59social and they're all available online completely for free for anyone around the world who is interested
24:06in a particular topic oh wow and um this really uh provides that that opportunity for anyone to upskill
24:15themselves um which could be relevant to their own career development or it could be relevant to um
24:23something that they feel passionate about that they want to get involved in so this would give them that
24:28that um knowledge foundation to to help them take that leap what an amazing resource to have to have
24:35at your disposal thank you so much karen for coming on the show and telling us a little bit about
24:39the
24:39work that you've been doing and the important um work of embedding education in sustainable development
24:45for this country thank you thank you so much melissa that's all the time we have for you on this
24:50episode of the future is female i'm melissa adriess signing off for the evening thank you so much for
24:54watching good night
Comments