- 20 hours ago
- #thefutureisfemale
Awareness around sexual harassment has grown in recent years, but having conversations about it can still be difficult., and especially as many workplaces and institutions still struggle with accountability and support. On this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale Melisa Idris speaks with Jacqueline Surin, Specialist Facilitator, Trainer and Professional Coach, who runs the workshop ‘Making it Safe: Inspiring Strategies against Sexual Harassment’. For more info, visit https://bit.ly/4bMF4HW
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:08Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Igris. Welcome to The Future is Female. This is the show where
00:14we find the extraordinary in every woman. Awareness about sexual harassment has grown in recent years
00:19but I think the conversations about it can still be difficult especially as many workplaces and
00:26institutions still struggle with accountability and support. So the more conversations we have
00:32about it the better which is why I'm delighted to introduce my guest today Jacqueline Sirin who is
00:37specialist facilitator, trainer and professional coach. Jacqueline it's wonderful of you to join
00:43me today. Thank you so much for being here. Let's get to know you first a little bit. Tell me
00:48a bit
00:48about yourself and the work that you do especially in the area of sexual harassment awareness.
00:56Thanks Melissa for having me on the show. It's such a privilege and a pleasure to be here.
01:01I started paying attention to sexual harassment around 2020. I mean I in my own life experienced
01:10a lot of sexual harassment in the workplace and oftentimes it was really difficult because there
01:15wasn't a language for us to speak about it and definitely not necessarily a way to hold the
01:21people who were doing the harassment accountable. And when I was younger it was just that much harder
01:26right to assert boundaries, to feel a sense of security and independence that I was able to speak
01:32out against it. But in 2020 as we all know lockdown happened. We all had a lot of time but
01:37it was also
01:38that time when the all of the headlines were really horrendous. There was Harvey Weinstein,
01:43there was Jeffrey Epstein. There was the Me Too movement. Then there was the Me Too movement and
01:47that kind of like rekindled a lot of women's memories around having been harassed when they were much
01:53younger. And so I was at home a lot. I have nieces who are growing up and I got to
01:58thinking
01:59I don't want my nieces to be as unprepared as I was. 2020 was also the year that I turned
02:0750.
02:08And there's a great sense of freedom and liberation turning 50. It was the year when
02:13I decided, do you know what, I really don't care what other people think anymore.
02:18Getting older is wonderful. It is so liberating, gave me so much freedom and confidence.
02:23And I was like, if only I had that sense of liberation and confidence when I was much younger,
02:28where I didn't have to worry about what people thought of me, where I didn't have to worry about
02:33fawning or conceding to male wants and preferences and desires, where I could hold my own.
02:39Right. So it took me five decades to get to this place where I'm like, really,
02:45I can see sexual harassment from a mile away. And I like, bring it on.
02:49Great. Okay. Which is why I'm excited that you run a workshop called Making It Safe,
02:54Inspiring Strategies Against Sexual Harassment. So let's begin with, first of all,
03:00tell us about the workshop, but also tell us what does safe actually mean in this context?
03:05What does it mean to you in a practical sense?
03:08So when sexual harassment happens, there is a spectrum, right, in terms of the timeline of harassment.
03:14And a lot of times when it involves human resources department, we know that if it's reached HR,
03:23it is already really bad because women find it extremely difficult to speak out against harassment.
03:29The cost of speaking out is that they become the problem, right? And for that reason alone,
03:34it becomes dangerous for women to report it, to talk about it, right? So when I was thinking about how
03:40do
03:40we empower women, I wanted that empowerment to happen at the very, very early stages.
03:46When sexual harassment happens, as it's happening, what kind of resources do women have to be able
03:53to stand up to it and to push back? And a lot of times women don't have the skills or
03:58the resources
03:59to do that because what harassment does is that it puts us in a state of fear and shock. And
04:06when we go
04:06into fear and shock, our reptilian brain takes over and we freeze. And because we freeze,
04:13then we don't know how to respond. And freezing is a natural response. Freezing is evolutionary.
04:19It's what keeps us safe. But freezing, when you're being harassed, doesn't necessarily keep it safe
04:24for you or make it safe for you. And so then I thought about how we could like create a
04:28workshop
04:29that is like a fire drill. Do you know, like when we have a fire, we want to know what
04:33to do,
04:34right? Because we know our brains will freeze when there's a fire, right? We're all going to panic
04:38and then we won't know what to do. And we won't know which are the exits to use. And so
04:42I thought,
04:43what if we could have a workshop that provides a fire drill for women so that when they are being
04:48harassed in that moment, when they're in a state of shock or fear or confusion, they would already have
04:55gone through this fire drill that will prepare them for what they can do in the moment. So my workshop
05:03really targets the in the moment, not when it's escalated, not after the fact, not when you're
05:09thinking of reporting it, none of those things. It's like really in the moment.
05:13Right. What you're saying really resonates because I don't know, I'm sure many people have had that
05:17experience where when you are experiencing sexual harassment, you freeze or you don't react the way
05:24you wish. Much later, you're thinking, I wish I said this. So I wish I put a stop to it
05:28or I wish
05:29I did something differently. So what you're training in your workshop is how do we react in that moment?
05:35Yes. Okay. And how do you react so that you can either push back or you can find a way
05:40to exit
05:42so that you make the situation safe for yourself? Tell me about the workshop, Jacqueline. When people
05:48come to the workshop, what do they bring with them? Do they bring, is it fear? Is it skepticism?
05:55And I'm wondering how difficult it must be to facilitate some of these conversations.
05:59Tell me your experience. So what's been really incredible is that when you speak to women,
06:05especially if you speak to them one-on-one, they are horrendous stories. And out of those stories,
06:12there's also a lot of courage and confidence and creativity. It's just that oftentimes we don't
06:19create the space for that courage and confidence and creativity to emerge. The way the workshop was
06:26designed was that I interviewed women. So it was a very bottom-up process. I interviewed several
06:31different women of different ages, different nationalities. And I said to them, when you
06:36were being sexually harassed, what kept you safe? What made it safe for you? And the women told me
06:41all of these incredible stories, big stories, small stories, stories that happened in the private sphere
06:47when they were out clubbing or stories where it was in the workplace, stories in the family. And out of
06:53these stories, they all had strategies of some kind. But the focus has never been on the capability of
07:01women to do these things. The story has always been either excusing bad male behavior. You know,
07:08this is just the way it is. Why are you making a fuss about it? Or the story is that
07:12it's not safe for
07:13you to report it or to talk about it. So the strategies then emerged from these women. And based on
07:20all of
07:20the interviews I did, I started to code the interviews for themes. And so there were these themes that
07:27emerged from these stories of confidence and creativity and courage. And the themes were
07:32number one, the first theme in the workshop is, how do you know when you're not safe? Oftentimes,
07:37it's a signal that women get, right? Like it's an alarm bell or a sense of discomfort. One woman has
07:43her stomach churning. Another woman said she gets really disassociated. She gets really confused.
07:48She's not sure what's going on. And these are all signals that let you know, hey, something's going
07:53on. Your boundaries are being violated. Your body is telling you, beware, even if your brain hasn't
08:01quite caught on yet, that something is happening. So that's the first theme that emerged from the
08:07women. Signals. Signals. So what lets you know? How do you know when you're not safe? And what do you
08:13do about it? So a lot of times women are told to dismiss it. A lot of times society says,
08:19that's just the way it is. If you want to hack it in this job, you have to put up
08:23with it, which is
08:24just pure nonsense. It's just pure nonsense, right? It allows men who do bad things to get away with
08:30doing bad things, right? And that is just pure nonsense. So it's first of all, it's just kind of
08:35like recognizing what are the signals. And for different women, it will be different signals,
08:40which let them know. And then what are you going to do about it? What helps you pay attention to
08:45the
08:45signals? And what stops you paying attention to those signals? So these are the prompts that I
08:50asked in the first thematic exploration in the workshop. Okay. Is your workshop only for women?
08:58Where do men come into play in this conversation? That's a great question. So when I first started
09:03developing this workshop, it was meant only for women. It's not like men do not get harassed,
09:10they do. And it's a very small minority of men who do get harassed. And unfortunately for men,
09:16when they are harassed, it's even harder for them, because there are fewer spaces where they can talk
09:21about it. And because if they do talk about it, then there'll be all kinds of expressions that get cast
09:27upon them. So I don't want to disregard the fact that men do get harassed, they do. But the majority
09:33of victims of harassment are women. And because of my own experiences, and because I have nieces
09:39whom I want to care and protect as they get older, my focus was on women. So the Making It
09:46Safe workshop
09:46is a women-only workshop. Only because when men enter a workshop, the dynamics changes.
09:53And women find it even harder to talk about the things that have happened to them. Because they're
09:59afraid of being dismissed, they're afraid of being made fun of, they're afraid of being
10:03judged in some way. So this workshop is only for women. And you're right to point out that,
10:09what about men? Because men are actually the ones who need to take on the responsibility for
10:13helping women be safer. It is a male problem, even though men often disassociate and say,
10:20oh, it's got nothing to do with me. I'm not the one who does these things. You know, I'm a
10:24good guy.
10:25Yeah. They may not be, some men may not see themselves as the perpetrators, but their behavior
10:31may continue to create some of these unsafe environments. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know,
10:36sexual violence and sexism exists across the spectrum. It's the small, small things that you do,
10:42laughing at an inappropriate joke, you know, making a sexist comment, or going silent,
10:46when your bloke friend has said something which is inappropriate, and then you don't speak up.
10:52All of those things contributes to an environment where it's possible for men to think that, hey,
10:57I can harass a woman, or I can assault a woman. It's like the witch in that door, right?
11:03Right. And so anyway, as I was developing Making It Safe, inspiring strategies against sexual harassment,
11:10there were requests for me to also consider men. And these are men who like really want to make a
11:16difference. And I am so proud to say that I have these men in my life, in the dance community
11:21that
11:21I belong to. They're just so incredible. And so what I did last year was that I ran a pilot
11:27workshop
11:27called How To Be Allies. Yeah, also called How Men Can Help, depending on who I'm promoting it to,
11:38right? And the idea behind it is, there's this Dutch saying, it's a proverb that says,
11:42what I'm doing right now, if I just work with women, is I'm mopping the floor while the tap is
11:48still running. Yes, that's true. You're not really addressing the rules of the problem.
11:53The rule of the problem is men's behaviour and men's attitude towards women, right? And men's sexism
11:59and misogyny. And of course, there's a place for making it safe. There's a very, very important
12:04place for making it safe. Because in the moment when sexual harassment is happening,
12:08it is a real threat to somebody's safety. And I want women to have the skills to immediately
12:13make it safe for themselves. But there's another part of it, which is, what are we going to do for
12:19the men who want to be allies? And so there's also how to be allies or how men can help.
12:26There's also
12:26that workshop, which includes both men and women. Okay, so can I come back to equipping women with the
12:35skills and the strategies to it when sexual harassment is happening when when they're
12:41experiencing that, I want to take zoom out a little bit. And sometimes we see sexual harassment as
12:48individual behaviour and individuals, individual bad behaviour and individual response to that bad
12:55behaviour. But how much of it is enabled by systems, Jacqueline? Because I think there's something to be said,
13:02let's take a workplace, for example, the hierarchy, the silence, the institutional protection,
13:08I think it's also comes into play. Can you talk to us a little bit about what
13:12you have learned over the years about how this is more than just individual problem? Absolutely.
13:19One of the main motivations for me starting work on this workshop is, I have a really keen memory of
13:27a
13:27time when I was in the newsroom. And there was a media officer from an environmental NGO. At that time,
13:35I was an
13:35environmental journalist. And he had harassed a colleague, before I went on a lawatan sambil belaja,
13:44a study tour with his organisation. And because she had alerted me, I raced it with the newsroom, and I
13:52made it clear that I
13:52would not stay in the same accommodation that the organisation had booked for him and for all the other
13:58media who were going on this trip. So my newsroom was alerted to the fact that he was somebody who
14:06harassed
14:06women. I left that newsroom, and subsequently, I found out that they hired him. And what's even more tragic
14:14is that he eventually assaulted a young intern. And there was a domestic inquiry, which he never turned
14:21up for. And he was, of course, sacked. So you asked me about the institutional obstacles to women reporting
14:29this. One is, they don't listen to women. When this case came up, where he eventually raped this young
14:39intern, and there was a domestic inquiry, my former mail editor said to me, oh, if only you had said
14:44something more about it. And I'm like, we spoke about it. I said to the office, please, if you want
14:52me to go on this assignment, you need to book separate accommodation for me. It's when women's
14:58voices are not heard, are not treated as equally valid or legitimate or important. That's one of it.
15:04And then another instance, again, unfortunately, in the same newsroom, although it's not just this
15:10particular newsroom, it happens across workplaces, right? There were many reports about a particular
15:17editor who was acting inappropriately, there was enough evidence. And then the managing editor says,
15:22you know what, let's not take any action because it will ruin his career. That's a classic example of
15:29what we call himpity. Oh, himpity. Yeah, so a preponderance for sympathy for the man and the impact
15:37you'll have on the man. And there's a lot of himpity that goes around. Yeah, so what happens to the
15:43woman is of less concern, less value than what happens to the man. Now, if the man wanted to save
15:51his
15:51career, he should just be acting appropriately and professionally. Not commit the harassment.
15:56And not be a harasser. Yeah, so those are some of the obstacles. And all of these are institutional,
16:01right? It's like you don't take us seriously. You will not act even when evidence is provided.
16:05That's quite funny because, as you said, when you started this, there were a lot of public
16:11conversations around harassment, particularly since the Me Too movement. But I think sometimes
16:17more awareness can create the illusion of progress. There is this illusion that we think there's
16:25progress in the space, but actually it's just, it's an illusion. Do you think that awareness has
16:33translated into cultural change over the years? I think yes and no. So I think what hashtag Me Too did
16:43for us was it allowed women to suddenly feel brave enough to speak about it openly. And in that outpouring,
16:52women were connected to each other across the globe. And they could see that actually there was a very
16:58clear pattern of male sexism and misogyny. So that part of it was really empowering, right?
17:05So many of us went to social media and gave our little story and put a Me Too hashtag to
17:11our stories
17:11on social media. And then if you look at it, there has been a huge backlash against women. So I
17:18think it's
17:18just the history of patriarchy, right? Every time there is a move towards equality, there's a move
17:26towards greater gender justice and fairness, there's going to be pushback. And that pushback is to be
17:33expected. I mean, why would men want to give up their dominance and privilege?
17:38Are you seeing that now? I mean, there's an entire anti-gender movement, isn't it, with the
17:43Andrew Tate's of the world? Absolutely. With Donald Trump in office. In the office,
17:51the highest office in the US. So can I ask you about that? Given that there is a backlash of
17:57this
17:58and the rise of misogynistic content online, what worries you about the messages that young women
18:07particularly are absorbing today in the media, in social media? Do you see that some of these
18:17narratives are infiltrating public discourse? I would think so, you know. Thankfully for me,
18:22I don't spend too much time on social media. Yes, it is successful sometimes.
18:26Yeah. I do read about the impact that it has on young people, not just young girls, right, but also
18:32young boys who now think that to be masculine means to dominate, to be masculine means to be a jerk,
18:39right? So there have been several documentaries, right, that we've watched, we've seen, I mean,
18:45they've been put out there that let us know the impact that it's having. So yes, I think that it
18:51has
18:51an impact. I think that a lot of young girls think that in order to be, you know, the perfect
18:58woman or the
18:59perfect girl, that they have to act in ways or behave in ways which kind of lessen their power
19:04and their ability to be big and large and strong in public spaces. You know, it's everything, right,
19:14from the way you dress, from whether you colour your hair as you get older, from whether you wear makeup
19:20or no makeup, you know, whether you're good enough. It's like we are never good enough, right? And again,
19:26that's one of the reasons why I want to bring women together. Because I think when we bring women
19:31together in a space, it can feel quite sacred in many ways, because suddenly we're recognising,
19:37hey, I am good enough. I matter. As a woman, society is going to tell me that I matter less
19:46than a man. But this workshop allows the space for women to kind of reconnect and, you know, rekindle
19:54that kind of sense of belief, that value, that, hey, I matter. I mean, some of us were lucky enough
20:00to grow up in households where that was part of our identity. There were some of the women I interviewed
20:06for designing this workshop. One grew up in a female-led household, and she said it was a given
20:13that as women, we were not lesser than anybody else. Oh, wow. How brilliant is that? And then she grows
20:20up
20:20to be this incredibly brave and strong woman who is able to hold the ground, who's able to put her
20:25foot down. Oh, it begins, everything begins at home. Okay, Jacqueline, talk to me about the workshop. So
20:31maybe you can tell us about the, you've got an upcoming workshop, right? That's right. It's coming up
20:37soon. So for people who may want to learn more about it, find out more about the workshop, where do
20:45they go?
20:45Anne, could you also maybe give us an example of some of the strategies that you teach? So if I'm
20:53curious about your workshop, and I think I might be able to get some knowledge from it, what is it
20:59that I would be learning about how I can react in those situations? Sure. So the workshop is happening
21:07on June 13. That's a Saturday, and it's a full day workshop. And it covers six themes. Like I said,
21:13the first is, first of all, just recognizing the signals and then paying attention to them.
21:17And then the second theme is what kinds of actions or behaviors make it safe for you? And what kind
21:22of actions or behaviors other people do or take that make it safe for you? And then there's values
21:28and beliefs and attitudes. That's the third theme. So what's some of the values that you hold,
21:33which either make it possible for you to be safe, and sometimes we are raised in ways where the values
21:38actually make it impossible for us to keep ourselves safe, right? And then there's stories.
21:44What stories have made it safe for you? What stories don't make it safe for you? And another theme is
21:50allies. Who has been an ally to you? When have you been an ally? And finally, the workshop ends on,
21:56what are some next steps you will take? You know, like, what are you inspired by? And what are some
22:01next
22:01steps you will take? And the way that I facilitate workshops is that I raise group intelligence. And what
22:07that means is I get participants to start paying attention to their own experiences and knowledge.
22:13And then I facilitate in the way that they can also start to pay better attention to each other's
22:18experiences. And by doing that, I create a star network of attention. And so that raises the
22:25intelligence. I make rooms and meetings smarter. And that's where the inspiration comes from. The
22:30inspiration comes from us gathering, and the inspiration comes from us having these hard and honest
22:36conversations with each other. And it becomes collective knowledge, isn't it? Your shared
22:41knowledge is so much easier to retain. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of strategies,
22:48I would say always just pay attention. Okay. And where can we find more information about it?
22:54The workshop is currently on Cloud Joy. So that's a ticketing platform. And if you just search,
23:01Making It Safe, Inspiring Strategies Against Sexual Harassment, you'll see that event pop up on Cloud Joy,
23:08where you can book a place on the workshop. All right, wonderful. Thank you so much for being
23:14here with me and having this conversation with me. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Pleasure.
23:18That's all the time we have for you on this episode of The Features Female. I'm Melissa Idris,
23:23signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching. Good night.
Comments