- 6 months ago
- #thefutureisfemale
Malaysia’s approach to stray management still heavily relies on catching and culling, over long-term solutions. However, many are now advocating for trap-neuter-release-manage as a humane and sustainable alternative. On this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale Melisa Idris speaks with Jean Liew, co-founder of TNRM Malaysia, about what it takes to build a stray-free Malaysia.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to The Future is Female.
00:15This is the show where we find the extraordinary in every woman.
00:19I'm delighted to introduce my guest today, Jean Liu, who is the co-founder of the NGO
00:23Trap, Neuter, Release and Manage, TNRM Malaysia.
00:28Welcome to the show, Jean. It's good of you to join me.
00:30Thanks for having me.
00:32You are a fellow animal lover, so I'm glad to welcome you to the show.
00:36I'm curious, though, to know a little bit more about you and your background
00:39and how you came to have this deep passion for advocating for stray animals.
00:47I think it's something innate. I literally was born with it. I didn't have a choice.
00:51So in terms of passion for animals, I think that it's nurture and nature, right?
00:56I mean, genetically, I was just born to have loved animals from childhood.
01:01I remember, you know, kids would probably want to watch cartoons.
01:05Of course, I watch cartoons too, but I like animal-themed ones.
01:08And I would literally, every night after dinner, like my dad wants to go to the supermarket or whatever,
01:14I was like, he'll bring me with him.
01:16And I'd be like, oh, I want to go get Nat Geo documentaries.
01:19And there were videocassettes back then.
01:22So, you know, just like spilt my age.
01:24But yes, so yeah, National Geographic, like magazines were my thing.
01:29And not like I even knew how to read it, but I just love looking at like photos of animals and things like that.
01:33So how did you put your passion into practice?
01:36So you've always loved animals.
01:38How did it lead to founding or establishing TNR?
01:42So, I mean, obviously, I love dogs and cats and horses.
01:47And I think especially growing up in Malaysia, the stray problem is so big here.
01:52You know, you see stray animals everywhere.
01:55And, you know, you can only have that many of your own pets, right?
01:59I can't take all of them in and give them the life I give my own pets.
02:02So eventually, how it all started, actually the first case that happened,
02:07my best friend knew that I was obsessed with animals and she found some puppies in her property.
02:13They were like renovating it to make it a restaurant or whatever.
02:16And from there, she called me and like, oh, can you like, you know, save these puppies?
02:20I was like, oh, okay, of course, let me go have a look.
02:23And then when I went to save the puppies, there were like four of them.
02:25I realized the mom was still around and, but she had already weaned them off.
02:29So, you know, weaning means, you know, they already don't need her milk anymore.
02:32They can eat solid food.
02:33So that's when I was feeding them and then I got them rehomed.
02:36Long story short, like took them home.
02:38But when I did, I felt bad for her.
02:39So I went back to look for her.
02:41And when I did, I realized that she had returned to a pack.
02:44She had a pack of like, there were six of them.
02:46Three males, three females actually.
02:48And when I saw it, I was just like, this is going to be a never ending issue.
02:52Of course, you know that at the back of your head if you think about it,
02:54but you don't really think about it until it's in front of your face.
02:57And I was like, okay, I need to do something bigger than just rescuing puppies as they come along
03:04or one kitten here, one dog here.
03:06Like it's not going to make an impact, you know, to the general problem, you know.
03:11So, yeah.
03:13And then from there, I went on to try to catch this mother dog.
03:19And I realized it was such an incredible, impossible feat to do alone and in open space.
03:24And this just brings me back to like how it all started.
03:27And it's just, we have come so far from then.
03:29Like now we are like such pros, you know.
03:31I'm curious to learn that what you've learned and observed and how you've expanded over this.
03:35But what became, what was, you know, started as passion and compassion and then became an NGO.
03:42So how did you decide to commit to starting this as a long-term mission?
03:47Yeah.
03:47So I thought I could do it on my own.
03:49And I realized, okay, I can't.
03:51So what I did was, I have one of my best friends.
03:55He also loves rescuing animals and all that.
03:58He's not my partner, actually.
03:59But yes, anyway, I digress.
04:02It's got a happy ending, though.
04:03Sorry.
04:05So we both like ran around like headless chickens trying to do it on our own.
04:09And then we realized, okay, this is kind of impossible.
04:12We still try to go back.
04:13And then just so happened he was at a vet, right?
04:15And at that time, there was, I think, a DBKL-SPCA collaboration kind of vet.
04:22But they did like cheaper neutering and all that.
04:24So he met these two guys who were doing what I wanted to do.
04:30Like I do TNR work.
04:32Just doing it individually.
04:33Yeah, but they were also kind of doing it on their own.
04:36And he was like, wait, these two guys.
04:38And that's how he kind of introduced us.
04:40And they had already unofficially started TNRM like for a year before that.
04:44Yeah.
04:45So Stuart and Stewie.
04:46So that's when I got like.
04:48Stuart and Stewie.
04:49Stuart and Stewie.
04:50I know.
04:50What are the chances?
04:52It was meant to be.
04:53Yeah, it was meant to be, right?
04:54So and then I connected with them because they had like a little Facebook page and there
05:01were like 80 followers or less or something.
05:03It was already like TNRM but it was not officially registered, nothing.
05:06It wasn't established as a foundation.
05:09And then I just like messaged them.
05:10They didn't reply me.
05:11I was like, reply me.
05:13And then they did.
05:14And then they came and long story short, the six dogs, it took us like six months to get
05:21them neutered, trapped, neutered, released.
05:23That was our first case.
05:26And I mean, when I joined them, since I joined them and we rehomed like, I think 18 puppies
05:31because of course we were so slow and they started breeding and we're like, okay, try
05:34to rehome, try to rehome.
05:36And then from there, I was like, at the end of the six months, they were like, would you
05:40like to join us officially?
05:42Yeah.
05:42And then I was like, actually, yes, you know.
05:44And but I have like kind of the admin kind of background.
05:47Like I was more, I've done corporate before and things like that.
05:50And they're kind of just chill, like wants a piano teacher and wants, so they're like,
05:54okay, why don't we make this official?
05:56I said, I suggested, let's make this official because no one's going to just keep banking
06:01money to steward's bank account for us.
06:03Only your friends would trust you and it's such a small amount.
06:06So let's make this official.
06:07So I got it registered officially, established it, went to ROS, sit in office, email the
06:13government, like get out.
06:14Yeah.
06:15So got all that done.
06:16We could officially open a proper bank account.
06:18And now we've like, I don't know, go check our Facebook.
06:20So that, so you formalize the structure, which is wonderful because then there is momentum
06:25to create more impact.
06:27Exactly.
06:28Exactly.
06:28Because that's the only way you can really make a difference.
06:30Talk to me a little bit about that.
06:31Walk me through what trap, neuter, release and manage, what that actually looks like
06:38in practice.
06:38Okay.
06:39So in a nutshell, trap stands for literally going out and trapping, catching the dogs in
06:44the most humane way that we have kind of also, I would say we should patent this, but yeah,
06:52we actually like through trial and error, we have discovered a very good way of doing it
06:56in the most humane way and effective as well.
06:58So we trap them and then we send them to the clinics, get them neutered, spayed, ear
07:03tips to indicate that they've been neutered.
07:06Okay.
07:07Because you can't tell when they're female, especially vaccinated as well.
07:11And you know, sometimes, of course we're supposed to send healthy animals, but sometimes they
07:15have underlying stuff that we don't know.
07:16So if they're already there, we do get them treated if they discover, okay, they have TBT
07:21or some diseases that they can't proceed to neuter straight away.
07:24So we get them treated as well.
07:26And then from there, we will, after seven days of post-operation recovery and boarding
07:31at the clinic, we will then get them to release, that's the R.
07:35They release them back to where they were caught and then manage, there are two meanings
07:39for that, manage in terms of managing the stray population as a whole.
07:43But also, we only work with regular feeders of the packs.
07:47We don't just, oh, I see a stray, call Jean.
07:50No, it doesn't work that way.
07:51It needs to be a pack of animals or animals that you've been feeding and bonding for a
07:55long time because you actually play a role as a feeder.
07:57For example, if you're a feeder, a community feeder, you need to be involved in the process
08:01of like luring the animal in because they trust you and we'll be like hiding.
08:04So you work with communities.
08:07You go in and you identify maybe a colony and then you work with communities.
08:10Yeah, community feeders.
08:11Feeders, okay.
08:12Yeah, so the feeders will get in touch with us and like I'm feeding this community pack
08:16of animals, that's when we go in and help them out.
08:18Was it just through word of mouth that word spread about the work that you're doing?
08:22How did you kind of build momentum in the beginning?
08:25I think a lot of it was, some of it is word of mouth.
08:29I mean, word of mouth was still one of the most powerful mediums out there.
08:32But a lot of it is social media.
08:35Oh.
08:35Yeah, so we had, like I said, it started with like 80 followers on Facebook.
08:40I think now we have like 15,000 or more, like definitely five figure, like a lot.
08:44So, and we started Instagram as well.
08:45What do you think is behind that?
08:47Why do you think people seek this out or want to follow this type of work?
08:52I think it's something that, I think everyone has kindness in them,
08:56but they just can't be bothered to do it on their, it's something difficult.
08:59If I ask you like, yeah, I want to help the animal, but it's difficult.
09:03Like you're not going to go out there and do it on your own.
09:04Which is why I find your story so inspiring because you've managed
09:09to do this on top of having a full-time job.
09:12So you're also the general manager of the luxury gym triad, right?
09:16So you're, for all of us, myself included, who said,
09:20I wish I could do something, but you know, I've got all this,
09:23I've got work, I've got family, I've got commitments.
09:26You've actually gone out and done it.
09:27You've done it while also.
09:29So I think that's really no excuse for us.
09:32It was not easy.
09:33And I think, I mean, back then when I first started it,
09:36I was kind of in a, I had a, I had the luxury of time in a way,
09:40in a sense that I worked for family business and I could just like sneak out
09:43and like do things like that.
09:44But yeah, I've done everything from literally crawling through rubbish chutes
09:48and done the hard physical work of catching the animals
09:51to now I've kind of gone into more, I'm more in charge of fundraising now.
09:57Now I send people out to do it.
09:58Well, the funding is also interesting.
10:01I do have to ask you because you think about,
10:04so you talked about trap, neuter, return and manage,
10:07but it's the in-between that costs money.
10:10The getting them treated and vaccinated and boarding for recovery.
10:14All of that requires effort and funds.
10:18Yes.
10:18Yeah, it does.
10:20So that's why now I, as much of effort you need to channel
10:24into actually catching the animals and sending them to clinic, blah, blah, blah.
10:28And communicating with the feeders, that's also a very tedious task.
10:32As you can tell, I'd rather deal with animals than people.
10:35But you also need to channel a lot of energy into getting funds
10:40because nothing comes for free.
10:43It's so difficult.
10:44And, you know, I've even, all of us actually have, you know,
10:47taken out from our pockets in the very beginning
10:49in like buying dog food, cat food, blah, blah, blah.
10:51But, you know, obviously for it to run successfully,
10:54we need like the whole community and the society to kind of contribute, right?
10:58So fundraisers, I always make it like a, you get something returned,
11:03you know, I get sponsors and then like they get goodie bags, blah, blah, blah,
11:07but 100% of profits and proceeds from that event,
11:09whether it's a fitness event, whether it's like a comedy show I've done before,
11:13or things like that.
11:14Yeah, yeah.
11:15That's a different way to raise money.
11:19I want to ask you about the people who are sceptical
11:22about trap, neuter, release and manage,
11:25who think that it takes a long time
11:28or the results might not be as effective.
11:31Because if you think about Malaysia's approach to stray animal management,
11:34it has always been catch and culling, right?
11:37It is that direct.
11:39I'm just wondering what you make of that, Jean.
11:41Why do you think this method persists?
11:45Well, first of all, we're not the first one in the world.
11:48We didn't like invent this method.
11:50We have adopted it from all the developed countries in the world,
11:53UK, Australia, blah, blah, blah, Hong Kong.
11:56They have all used this method
11:57and it's been proven very, very, very effective, right?
12:01Take away the humanity, cruelty aspect, which is obvious,
12:04which is why we are driven to do it,
12:06but not everyone's compassionate about animals.
12:08It is also very effective.
12:09If you want to remove strays from the streets,
12:12that's probably the best way you can do it
12:13because how it works are animals are territorial, right?
12:18So a lot of people ask us this question,
12:21like, why do you release them back?
12:22Why don't you just, like, you know, rehome them?
12:24Isn't it cruel to release them back?
12:26Well, first of all, that is their home.
12:28That's the life they know.
12:29And they would much rather be back to where they were caught
12:33and being fed and blah, blah, blah,
12:35than stuck in a shelter or, like, in a cage.
12:37Just, like, imagine doing COVID.
12:39Did you, like, being stuck?
12:40MCO, we're all complaining about MCO.
12:42We can't go out.
12:43This is the dog's life in a shelter.
12:44They're just stuck there forever, right?
12:46And in a cage sometimes.
12:48And it's not easy to get them rehomed.
12:50So, and even if they get rehomed,
12:53it's not guaranteed they're going to get to go home.
12:55Right.
12:55There are so many cruel and abusive owners out there as well.
12:59So, anyway, back to this.
13:01Release is so important because there's something called the vacuum effect.
13:04So, if you imagine group A is here, group B is here.
13:07If I remove group A and cull them.
13:10Right.
13:10Group B, overpopulate and they'll take over this territory
13:13and they'll populate anyway.
13:15Right.
13:15So, it's not effective.
13:16So, it's not, in the long run, it's not effective
13:18because eventually other strays will come in.
13:22Exactly.
13:22Unnutrified strays as well, right?
13:24So, what we do, though, if we do TNR, group A, B,
13:27we take them to the clinic, one week, boom, put them back.
13:30And now they can't breathe because they're all sterilized.
13:32They can't move in because they're like, uh-oh,
13:34because they will defend the territory.
13:35And then we go around and neuter these back as well.
13:37So, that's how it works.
13:39So, that's literally how it works.
13:41But it needs to be obviously done on a larger scale.
13:43Right.
13:44You know, and we are quite a small group of us that's doing it.
13:47And it's not easy to find people dedicated
13:49and willing to do this kind of work.
13:51I mean, we've just talked about that, right?
13:53So, it would be great if it could be done on a bigger scale
13:56with more resources.
13:57Then you'll see the effects more.
13:59But just in terms of numbers,
14:01a pair of unnutrified male and female dog,
14:04like, it's like a pyramid, right?
14:05Imagine one male, one female.
14:07And they don't have no sense.
14:08They're still going to mate with their own litter
14:11and things like that.
14:11They'll cross-peak.
14:12But if you leave them unnutrified,
14:13they can populate to, if I'm not wrong,
14:1665,000 animals in like six years.
14:19Like, it's like a whole pyramid.
14:21And cats is like 100 over 1,000.
14:23Oh my goodness.
14:24That's how effective it is.
14:25So, if you think it's ineffective,
14:27look at the numbers, Google it,
14:28chat, GPT it, whatever.
14:30You'll know, you'll realise that it's so effective
14:32even if you just neuter one animal.
14:34Do you ever come across resistance?
14:37So, I can understand the people who question
14:40why release it?
14:41Because maybe you might need to educate them more about that.
14:45But when you work with community feeders,
14:48and when you do this work,
14:50have you ever faced resistance from people who say,
14:54why do you need to neuter?
14:55Why this process?
14:58Hard yes.
14:59Okay, what's the counter-argument that they're providing?
15:01So, a lot of people,
15:03there's a few groups of thinking, right?
15:05Trains of thought.
15:07One will say, they humanise them.
15:10They think, oh, you should let them procreate.
15:12It's like, give them the freedom to basically make...
15:13How would you like to be neutered?
15:15Right, I've heard that before.
15:16Okay, it's like, okay, like,
15:18if you could communicate family planning to them,
15:20great, go ahead.
15:22You know, or like, you know, save sex.
15:24Go ahead.
15:25You know, but obviously not.
15:26They're animals.
15:27You can't humanise them to that extent.
15:29Okay, that's number one.
15:30There's also another train of thought where,
15:32this one can be quite controversial,
15:35whereby they think, oh, they're already pregnant.
15:37Like, again, it's like abortion, humanising them.
15:40Like, oh, abortion in human beings.
15:42This is a spay terminate space, isn't it?
15:44Yeah.
15:45A neuter terminate.
15:46Yeah, so it's like, we do abort, you know?
15:48And like, and we have spoken to qualified vets,
15:52and they say that it's just as safe.
15:54Of course, there'll be cases where, you know,
15:56there has been deaths in just plain neutering or in abortion,
16:00but it's not, I won't say it's any more higher risk.
16:03I think it really depends, but, I mean,
16:05we've heard from the vet, not like I would know,
16:07but we asked the vet's advice,
16:08and they said it's totally fine even up to the day,
16:09because it's just like having a C-section.
16:11Right.
16:11You know what I mean?
16:12It's not any more risky.
16:14But just like any surgery out there,
16:16even for humans, there's always a risk.
16:18Even if you do appendicitis, you could die, you know?
16:20But the chances are slim.
16:22But I'm not saying we have 100% success rate
16:24when, you know, no animals, you know, pass from surgery.
16:27Of course, there will be, but very, very, very minimal.
16:29Okay, all right.
16:30That's interesting.
16:31So you work closely as well with the vets in your community.
16:34Do you have like a panel of vets that you work with?
16:36We did.
16:37We do, sorry.
16:38But they come and go, I would say.
16:40That's why I said we did,
16:41because we were working quite closely with some of them,
16:43and then suddenly they realise,
16:45okay, like they want to focus more on private case,
16:48like personal pets, whatever.
16:50Or they, you know, the nature of our work is,
16:54it's not definite.
16:55So if I have a, yeah, if I have a case,
16:59let's say you're like, oh, okay, Jean, I've got this,
17:02you know, I'm feeding this group of stray cats.
17:05I can spend like five hours there and not get anything, right?
17:08But I could also spend one minute and get it straight away.
17:11You know, it's really, really volatile.
17:13You would never know.
17:14So the thing is, we need to work with vets who are okay
17:17with us coming in with no appointment
17:18and just like walk in anytime during our opening hours
17:21and we just put it in the, you know, our kennels or cages there set for us
17:25because they don't mix it with the pets
17:26because, you know, they might come in with diseases,
17:28they're not vaccinated, blah, blah, blah.
17:30So we need vets who are open to that, you know,
17:33who are very, like, who want to do some CSR.
17:36Right.
17:36Yeah.
17:36Who are willing to sacrifice, you know,
17:39infected animals coming in but in a separate area
17:41without appointment, you know,
17:44we can just board them there till they're ready to board.
17:45We had that and we had it quite good for a few years
17:48but then now that clinic has now like, so now we're looking,
17:51oh, we have other vets but we need more
17:53because also we have cases all over Klang Valley
17:57and Selangor and KL, so we can't just have one.
18:00Let's say it's in KLCC area, like we have to send everything just there.
18:03Even if you're in Puchong, if you're in Shalam, you know,
18:05so it's better we have more.
18:07You need a network for sure.
18:09We do.
18:09I mean, it sounds incredibly challenging,
18:12not just in terms of operationally and logistics
18:15but also emotionally because you're dealing a lot with uncertainty
18:18and I'm sure burnout is a real concern in this line of work, right?
18:23How do you make sure that you're staying emotionally afloat,
18:26particularly if you are confronted on a daily basis
18:30with some of the worst human behaviours, right?
18:33The neglect and the abuse and the cruelty.
18:35I think, yeah, I think the irony is like people who do this
18:39are animal lovers obviously, right?
18:41And I think it's really difficult to separate and compartmentalise
18:44like emotions and, you know, the work itself, right?
18:49So I think there's a point in time where you have to realise,
18:52okay, if I get emotional, I'm not going to be able to continue
18:54and I won't be able to help the animals which is my mission
18:57and if you're a true animal lover, you'll think about the bigger picture, right?
19:02And it's just like animal owners.
19:05Every time a pet passes away, you're like,
19:06oh, I don't want to have any more.
19:08But these are the people who deserve to have it
19:09because you treat animals so well, right?
19:11But I know it's hard, but you've got to just compartmentalise
19:14and like, of course, when I started, it was very difficult.
19:18Like, I was breaking down, like, oh, I cried at the bed and everything.
19:20But I realised, like, wait, snap out of it, Jean!
19:23Like, if you keep doing this, you can never achieve the goal.
19:27So you've got to be pretty strong.
19:28But don't get me wrong, I'm not that strong.
19:30I did burn out. I am burning out. I have burned out.
19:34So, and, you know, dealing with life itself, you know,
19:36it's already hard and you have to do this and get emotional, blah, blah.
19:39You have relationships, blah, blah, blah.
19:41You know, so it's just like a rollercoaster all the time.
19:44And as a woman, hormones.
19:46Do you mind if I ask you something personal?
19:48What surprised you most about yourself through this journey?
19:52Um, I think the resilience and also, like, the fact that...
19:59Actually, what surprised me most is the fact that all my childhood dreams
20:03and, like, things I wanted, I already have it.
20:06I don't realise it sometimes.
20:07So until you reflect, you're like, oh, wait, I've always wanted, like,
20:09an animal shelter and save animals and do the...
20:12Like, of course, when you're a kid, you don't know any better.
20:14You'll say, like, I want a zoo or whatever.
20:16And you're like, wait, I'm already doing it.
20:17I already have it.
20:18You know, it's like you don't realise until you reflect, like...
20:21And now it's, like, kind of sad that you're jaded at this age
20:24and you've done it and you're like, wait,
20:25you have to kind of just take a step back and realise, like,
20:27oh, my God, I've done it, you know?
20:29Yeah.
20:30But being burnt out as well, so you just got to realise also
20:33there's always a way to still continue your goals
20:37but without sacrificing, like, also your mental health, right?
20:42So that's why I went from catching, catching...
20:45Well, I did it for 10 years, like, going out there,
20:49whatever free time I had, going out there,
20:51going against my family's will because, you know,
20:53oh, it's so dangerous for you, you shouldn't...
20:55I just, like, went out anyway.
20:56Things like that, a lot of things.
20:57And then, like, your family saying this and then, like,
21:00dealing with people who are, like, telling you,
21:02oh, like, oh, no, I don't think you should nature.
21:04But you knew that was what you wanted.
21:05Exactly, right?
21:06And then doing that, really...
21:08But at the end of the day, now I go into fundraising,
21:11which is less stressful in the sense that...
21:13But equally as important.
21:14Oh, yes.
21:15But I would say not less stressful.
21:17It's still very stressful, but without the emotional stress.
21:20Okay.
21:21Like, I don't have to see, like, the animals all the time
21:23and things like that.
21:24So I think we're still doing the work,
21:28but like I said, fundraising is just as important.
21:30We can't do any of this without funds, obviously.
21:32So a lot of the work that you do has to do with,
21:36humane, stray animal management, right?
21:39But when you think, you brought it up just now,
21:41not everyone who are pet owners provide safe and loving homes
21:45for their companion animals.
21:48We've seen such a rise in cases of cruelty and neglect towards animals.
21:52And I just read something the other day.
21:54The Department of Actualty Service has received over 12,000 complaints
22:00involving animal abuse and neglect and welfare issues.
22:03And that's shocking to me.
22:04It is shocking.
22:05What do you think is behind this?
22:06Why suddenly is there such an uptick in our society of cruelty towards animals?
22:10I don't think it's a sudden rise.
22:13I think it's always been there.
22:14It's just now more made known to us.
22:16And I think with the power of social media, things like that,
22:19like, you know, you get caught, right?
22:21I think it's always been there.
22:23But definitely the root cause of it all is really just education
22:27and educating people to be,
22:30and just instilling compassion in people, right?
22:33I mean, I'm not even surprised because when I'm out there,
22:36I see, for example, you're out at the mamak or whatever
22:39and you like sit there eating and then there's this stray cat or dog.
22:43And if you see a child that's never been exposed before,
22:46they'll be like, oh.
22:48But you see the parents going like, shh, shh, shh.
22:50Of course the parents are going to be...
22:52Show it or kick it away.
22:52Exactly.
22:53So the kids are really thinking, oh, fear, I should be scared of this thing
22:56and I should do the same thing, like kick it or whatever.
23:00And I think that's why I said it's nature and nurture, right?
23:04Thankfully, thank God my parents are so, like,
23:07compassionate about animals too.
23:09I mean, my mum not so, but she was also a bit scared of animals,
23:11but she wouldn't kick it and all that.
23:13She would just, ah, I'm scared.
23:14But my dad is not like that.
23:15My grandparents, my grandma apparently loved animals too.
23:18So that's why I said it's innate,
23:21but it's also nurture, how I was brought up.
23:23They never did that in front of me, you know?
23:26And in fact, they're like, no, you should be kind to animals,
23:28be gentle with them, things like that.
23:30But I think that's, again, like nurturing your child.
23:34But education, just in terms of educating people why strays exist,
23:39it's not their fault.
23:39It all comes from irresponsible pet ownership.
23:42Again, it's the people's fault, right?
23:44So I think that, and of course, I don't think it's a rise.
23:48I think it's always been there.
23:50But like I said, social media.
23:51But also enforcement, that's another thing, right?
23:56Enforcement is another issue.
23:57So you said there's, what, 12,000 complaints or whatever,
23:59but is anything done about it?
24:01Done about it.
24:02So is there any enforcement?
24:03Is there anything that, you know,
24:05I know there are laws placed, but are they, first of all, harsh enough?
24:08And second of all, are they enforced?
24:11Do people just get away with it?
24:13That's exactly why it's all about it.
24:14So as someone who works within this, who has seen the worst,
24:17and sometimes the best as well, of what people can do for animals,
24:21what would you like policymakers to do if you had,
24:26say you had a direct line to the policymaker and say,
24:29hey, I want you to do this one thing today, implement this now today,
24:32what would it be to make life better for the animals out there?
24:36The first thing I would say is no more culling, catching and culling,
24:42you do TNR.
24:43So that's exactly what we need for the government forces or whatever
24:48to actually adopt this method as opposed to catching and culling,
24:52which is what they're still doing, right?
24:55Because, like I said, what we're doing is very effective,
24:58but also with just a small group of people doing it, right?
25:00If the people with the resources and everything they have right now,
25:04they're using it to catch already, but instead of killing,
25:07just get them new to it and get them back to the streets,
25:09that would be great.
25:11Have you seen anything that might indicate that this could be the direction
25:15that maybe state governments might want to take?
25:18Well, I wish I could say yes,
25:21but I just feel like there's now like coalitions being formed,
25:24everything from that copy dog that got abused, things like that.
25:27I think that's just more, I would say more, I guess,
25:33awareness about animal welfare and cruelty and things like that,
25:37but I don't think that it's still, yeah, there's protests and things like that,
25:40but it's not just about animal cruelty,
25:43it's about getting to the root cause of it, which is neutering.
25:47Because if there's no strays out there, there's nothing to be cruel to.
25:51I mean, of course your own pets, there's still people who do that.
25:52That is the crux of the matter, is to make sure that they're neutered.
25:56Yes, so that they don't populate and there's not so many out there,
26:00and honestly, the end goal would be to have a stray-free Malaysia.
26:05Like, if you go to a lot of countries, like, do you see strays around,
26:08like, even when you go on a holiday in Japan or whatever?
26:10You don't see a single stray, I don't think, you know?
26:12And whatever pets are out there, they're all treated well.
26:15I love that you said it's not the stray's fault that they're there.
26:20They're also, they're just living alongside us.
26:23Well, what does success look like for TNRM Malaysia in five years, let's just say?
26:29Oh, I just said it, stray-free Malaysia.
26:31Stray-free, so if we were to walk out, there'll be no stray animals.
26:36Yeah, because there are domesticated animals who deserve to be at home
26:40and, you know, treated well and, you know, things like that.
26:43So they're not wild animals.
26:45They shouldn't be out there, you know, let's put it this way.
26:47Like I said, it just all started when one e-response or pet owner
26:51dumped the animals on the street.
26:53Oh, I don't want to just open the door, let them run away
26:55or dump it on the highway and just drive off.
26:57And then they're not new to it and then a lot of people did that,
27:00they start populating and they became strays.
27:02They're not wild animals.
27:03They're not like wolves, you know, they don't belong in the wild.
27:05Well, Jean, I thank you so much for coming on the show
27:08but also for the work that you and your team do.
27:10Thank you so much.
27:12That's all the time we have for you on this episode of The Futures Female.
27:15I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
27:17Thank you so much for watching.
27:18Good night.
Be the first to comment