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Last month Israel announced it was going to ban 37 aid organisations, including Doctors Without Borders, from operating in Gaza, the occupied West Bank, and occupied East Jerusalem beginning 1st March 2026. Where do things stand now, and will MSF be able to continue its crucial work in Gaza? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Simon Eccleshall, Head of Programs for Doctors Without Borders Australia, also known by its French acronym MSF.
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00:10Hello and good evening, I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of
00:18the day.
00:19Last month, Israel announced it was going to ban 37 aid organisations, including Doctors Without Borders,
00:26from operating in Gaza, the Occupied West Bank and Occupied East Jerusalem beginning March 1st.
00:33Now, joining us on the show today to tell us more about what's the latest with this situation,
00:38I have with me Simon Akashol, who is the Head of Programs for Doctors Without Borders Australia,
00:44also known by its French acronym MSF. Simon, welcome to the show. It's good of you to join me.
00:49Thank you so much. Talk to me about the latest ban, the Israel's ban on the 37 aid groups.
00:56It was supposed to be enforced March 1st, but we're a few days away after that.
01:01What's the latest situation with that now?
01:03Well, as you're aware, the politics and conflict has taken a bit of a turn in the region,
01:08and so there hasn't been a hard and fast deadline, as we were expecting,
01:13around the deregistration of those 37 international non-government organisations in Gaza.
01:20The reality on the ground is still that we work under incredibly limited access and frustrating conditions,
01:29and we expect that that will probably continue as we continue as humanitarians to negotiate for proper access
01:36and to continue to ask states all around the world to put pressure on Israel to allow these 37 NGOs
01:42to continue delivering life-saving assistance in Gaza, the West Bank, and in West Jerusalem.
01:49Right. So the Israeli authorities, they say the ban is linked to aid groups refusing to provide detailed personnel information
01:57about Palestinian staff.
01:59I'm quite curious, what kind of information were they requesting,
02:02and why did MSF decide not to comply with it?
02:08What were the risks you were concerned about?
02:10Yeah. Let's start by understanding that this request is historically,
02:16and if we look at other contexts around the world, it's pretty unreasonable.
02:19Humanitarian organisations work in close alignment with international humanitarian law.
02:24We're protected under the UN charters and the roles around providing that relief through unfettered access.
02:32So what the occupying power Israel has asked of us in Gaza, where we have an agreement with the Palestinian
02:40authorities
02:41to be able to continue to work in Gaza, the Israelis have asked us to provide the personal identifiable information
02:47for our staff that are working in Gaza.
02:51We normally don't provide that information anywhere we work, but we do make a big effort to cooperate with all
02:57parties in a conflict
02:59and to be able to reassure ourselves of their respect for our mandate and our role.
03:04What's been problematic in this context is that the Israelis have made this conditional,
03:11this sharing of personal identifiable information about our staff.
03:14They've made that conditional on our continued presence in Gaza.
03:19And so whilst we've cooperated for many months with the Israeli authorities on the whole process of registration
03:25and we've provided all of the other information required, this has become a sticking point.
03:31Thankfully, the latest news on this is that the Israeli High Court issued last Friday an injunction
03:37stopping the banning of the 37 NGOs.
03:41It's a temporary injunction and it's yet to be seen how the Israeli government will react to that injunction.
03:48But through a legal challenge supported by those 37 NGOs, we've been able to highlight the irregularity
03:58or the unreasonableness of that request by the Israeli government.
04:02So we have some hope from within Israel, this time from within the legal channels,
04:07that this debate might have a bit more of a robust conclusion and that there's still space to negotiate access.
04:15I can't imagine the difficulty it must have caused the organization to come to that decision.
04:24That's not an easy decision to make, I'm sure.
04:28But, you know, it being unfair, a situation to have been put into that in the first place.
04:34But talk to me a little bit about what that means.
04:37So right now you're operating in the territories that require the most support, the most help.
04:44But it's uncertain. You're on uncertain ground waiting for maybe the Supreme Court
04:50or maybe for tensions to ease in other parts of the region.
04:55Is it a very precarious situation? How do you plan for something like that?
04:58That's the sticking point. It's very hard to plan your next move.
05:02What we do know, though, as MSF, is that we will continue, we will try whatever way we can
05:10to continue to support Palestinian people in need in Gaza.
05:14The form that that might take may change and we'll have to look for what opportunities present,
05:20particularly around the supply of life-saving humanitarian assistance.
05:25Our own trucks, those of many NGOs, have been blocked for several months.
05:29We're looking at what other opportunities might be available for us
05:33to get those life-saving support, those needs, into Gaza, those items.
05:38We're looking at personnel.
05:40So we've been unable to get international staff issued new visas
05:44from the Israeli authorities to travel into Gaza.
05:48We have staff on the ground now who will leave when their visas expire
05:52or when they can no longer extend.
05:54But what it will mean is that we'll have to work more remotely
05:58in supporting the vast majority of our staff in Gaza.
06:02So we have, I think, 1,200 staff in Gaza.
06:06Over 1,000 of those are Palestinian staff.
06:08So the number of international staff was always a small part of our overall presence.
06:13It will become perhaps even more small or under more pressure
06:17if this deregistration issue continues.
06:20We are hopeful that there may be some sort of negotiated settlement
06:25where we're able to continue to work.
06:27What form, how we work may need to change.
06:30But we're optimistic that the needs are so huge
06:32that the needs and the wants of Palestinians are for MSF to continue.
06:37We provide a critical health service in Gaza.
06:41Currently, one in five hospital beds is supported by MSF.
06:45One in three child deliveries is supported by MSF.
06:48We're providing drinking water to over 100,000 people every day.
06:52If you took that out of the equation,
06:54it would be catastrophic for people in dire need.
06:58And we're appealing to the Israeli government
07:00and we're appealing to states all around the world
07:02to allow that assistance to continue and to scale up that assistance.
07:06What we have at the moment is not enough.
07:08We need to actually provide a lot more assistance in the coming months
07:13to ensure that people are able to survive
07:15in what is still a horrible humanitarian crisis.
07:19Yes, so talk to me about that.
07:20You mentioned limited access trucks, aid trucks being blocked.
07:24Are there areas of Gaza now that are completely inaccessible
07:28to medical and humanitarian teams?
07:32And are you concerned that should the deregistration go through,
07:36which parts of Gaza will be inaccessible?
07:40So inaccessibility to areas is perhaps less of a concern after the ceasefire.
07:45So what we saw with the adoption of the ceasefire
07:48was a significant increase in armed hostilities,
07:53particularly the aerial bombardments
07:54or the moving of people out of particular areas
07:57and the carpet bombing or blanket destruction of neighbourhoods
08:01that we've witnessed all throughout last year and the year before.
08:04With the ceasefire,
08:05we're still seeing casualties present at medical facilities every day.
08:09They're typically people with gunshot wounds
08:11who've approached what's called the yellow line or the yellow zone,
08:15which is the line that the Israeli Defence Force maintains
08:18as they are meant to be under the ceasefire,
08:22withdrawing from Gaza.
08:24The reality is that line is changing every day.
08:27We're seeing it expanding,
08:28and the uncertainty around that area is leading to more casualties.
08:34So people who may be trying to access their agricultural lands
08:37and were unaware that they are in a yellow zone
08:40are approaching the Israeli controlled areas and are being targeted.
08:45So it's that confusion around where is safe to go,
08:48where is not safe to go?
08:50How do I provide for my family if I'm a Palestinian
08:53and I can't farm my agricultural land?
08:56And we're seeing that playing out during the ceasefire
08:59in ways that add to the suffering of Palestinians and the complexity.
09:04Returning to the issue you raised about the trucks coming in,
09:08so we have seen under the ceasefire an increase
09:10in the number of trucks coming across at the border posts,
09:13but it's not our trucks.
09:15It's not the humanitarian sector trucks.
09:17Our trucks are still held on the Israeli side of the border
09:20as they have been for many, many months.
09:22MSF has 45 trucks still waiting to be cleared
09:25to bring in life-saving medical supplies.
09:29What is coming in are trucks that are serving the shops
09:33and the commercial operations,
09:35which are now starting to come back inside Gaza.
09:38It's great that there's some economic activity,
09:41but for MSF we're concerned that the types of goods coming in
09:44are not the right ones.
09:46For example, food.
09:47What we're seeing coming in is highly processed food
09:50that gets sold in shops.
09:52Rather than meat, vegetables, fruit that is needed
09:57for children who are suffering from malnutrition.
10:00And the food that's coming in is coming in for sale,
10:03not for humanitarian supplies,
10:05which are provided free of charge to those who are most needy.
10:08So there's some distortion in the figures.
10:11Israel could claim that there's a lot more items coming in,
10:14but when you look at what those items are
10:17and where the needs are,
10:19you get a very different picture
10:20of what the situation is on the ground in Gaza.
10:24I've spoken to several MSF representatives,
10:27many of whom who have been on the ground in Gaza providing services,
10:32and they spoke of many limitations and the need for creativity
10:37with all the shortages of humanitarian aid being allowed.
10:42Do you know what the situation is now?
10:44Is it getting better in terms of having some of the medical,
10:51the medicine and the tools needed to provide some of the,
10:55I can only assume, a backlog of injuries
10:58that need to be treated during the ceasefire?
11:01Sadly, no, we're not seeing an improvement in those items
11:05that relate to the work that MSF supports.
11:07So even the most basic medical supplies,
11:10dressings for wounds, scalpels for surgery,
11:14painkillers, antibiotics,
11:16those are part of those items that are not allowed in,
11:19be they humanitarian items
11:22or be they what the Israelis call dual-use items.
11:26Antibiotics is not allowed in?
11:28Antibiotics that we are requesting is stuck at the border.
11:31It's not allowed in.
11:32So what we find at the moment,
11:35and this has been one of the heartbreaking realities
11:38for MSF staff working in Gaza,
11:41is that we're performing surgery without painkillers.
11:43The people are not getting the right medications,
11:47including antibiotics,
11:48to be able to fight off infection.
11:49So those items which would be normally part
11:53of everyday medical care are not available.
11:57And as you mentioned also,
11:58the type of needs that people have
12:02are a mix of trauma-related injuries.
12:05So last year in particular,
12:07when the bombings were occurring,
12:09we saw a lot of burn injuries,
12:11we saw a lot of crushed bones.
12:13Now with the ceasefire, we're seeing less of that,
12:16but we're still seeing people present with gunshot wounds,
12:18again, as they're being targeted
12:20for being in the wrong area at the wrong time
12:22or indiscriminately shot at
12:24when going about their everyday lives.
12:27We're also seeing complications
12:29from people who've had chronic illness
12:30but been unable to seek and receive treatment
12:33for many, many years now.
12:34And there's also no pathway for those people
12:37to be able to go out,
12:38seek medical attention,
12:40and then come back in.
12:41No medical evacuations?
12:42Medical evacuations have been a slow trickle.
12:45There are thousands and thousands of people
12:47on the wait list.
12:48Many people may succumb to those illnesses
12:50before that backlog will be cleared.
12:53I've heard estimates of,
12:55at current rates,
12:56it would take 10 years to clear the backlog.
12:58So again, that's become an issue
13:01not because of a lack of capacity.
13:03There's incredible medical capacity in the region.
13:06MSF has got a rehabilitation hospital
13:08in Amman, Jordan that could take people.
13:10It's political will that's lacking.
13:13It's the lack of trust and support
13:16for humanitarian actors
13:18to be able to deliver that support
13:20in Gaza and outside of Gaza.
13:22And what we see very clearly in Gaza
13:25is still the weaponization of food,
13:28the weaponization of humanitarian aid,
13:30the restriction of access to medical care
13:32as a means of collective punishment
13:35for the Palestinian people.
13:37And these are the things we object to
13:39on the basis of international humanitarian law.
13:41These are the things we think states
13:43should be shouting out about more loudly
13:46at international fora
13:47and demanding a change, demanding action.
13:49Before we do get into the international forum,
13:54the international community
13:55and what they can do more of
13:57in terms of support,
13:59you talked about the yellow line a bit earlier.
14:02I'm curious to know more.
14:03I watched a video,
14:04that MSF footage from MSF staff on the ground
14:09to depict the yellow line.
14:11And it was so different from what I had imagined.
14:13I pictured clearly demarcated barricades
14:18and, you know, to show that
14:20this is where you can and cannot go.
14:22But actually, it's just a yellow box
14:24or a yellow stone,
14:27rock painted yellow.
14:28Exactly.
14:29Without kind of clear lines
14:31as to what is a no-go zone
14:33and what is not.
14:34Maybe you can tell us more
14:35about how this line affects civilians
14:38and the types of injuries
14:40that you're seeing,
14:41that you're treating on the ground.
14:42Sure.
14:43So, again,
14:44under the conditions of the ceasefire,
14:46the Israeli Defence Force
14:47was meant to progressively withdraw
14:49from the territory.
14:51And the yellow line was envisaged
14:52as a key border or barrier
14:56to be put in place
14:56during this phase of the ceasefire.
14:58It is, as you describe,
15:01concrete blocks,
15:02painted yellow,
15:03which, despite the intent
15:05to make it a fairly fixed line,
15:09what we're experiencing on the ground
15:11is that it moves.
15:13It's regularly adjusted by the IDF.
15:17It's been progressively expanding westward.
15:21So it started from, I think,
15:231.5 kilometres inside the eastern border
15:26of the Gaza Strip.
15:27And in various places,
15:29it's now being moved
15:30to accommodate what can only be anticipated
15:34are the strategic or security concerns
15:36of the Israelis.
15:38So pushing Gazans closer to the coast.
15:41Exactly.
15:42Pushing Gazans closer to the coast,
15:44reducing the amount of land
15:46that they have free access to,
15:48and importantly,
15:49blocking them from key agricultural land.
15:52Again, part of the recovery of Gaza,
15:54part of the ceasefire
15:56is to allow Gazans to return
15:58to their homelands
15:59and to be able to start engaging
16:01in livelihoods,
16:02farming, for example.
16:03And that's where some of the confusion
16:05has come in,
16:06that people thought they had access
16:07to those agricultural lands.
16:09They weren't aware, perhaps,
16:11that the yellow line,
16:13the boundary had changed.
16:14And when they're trying
16:15to reach those lands,
16:17they're being targeted by the IDF
16:19who suspect that they may be not civilians.
16:23They may be someone else.
16:25Again, it's a very confusing,
16:26a very opaque situation there
16:29that is very hard to ensure
16:32the safety of Palestinians
16:36or of our staff.
16:37So approaching the yellow line
16:38is really something
16:39that should be avoided at all costs.
16:42Again, that has for our staff
16:44been evidenced through
16:46the number of casualties
16:47we're seeing with gunshot wounds.
16:49So we're seeing women,
16:50children and men
16:51presenting at medical facilities
16:53with gunshot wounds
16:54as a result of them being
16:57in proximity to that yellow line.
17:01Since the ceasefire,
17:02or despite the ceasefire,
17:04I might say,
17:04UNICEF came up with a report
17:06that more than 100 children
17:08had been killed
17:08since early October.
17:11And I think that
17:13corroborates your testimony
17:16that there are shootings
17:17and injuries and fatalities
17:19still occurring regularly.
17:21How are the staff,
17:23how are your Palestinian staff operating?
17:25How have they been
17:27surviving through all of this
17:30personally and professionally?
17:32I understand you've lost a few staff.
17:34We have MSF
17:35throughout the course
17:36of this recent escalation
17:38in the conflict
17:38since October 7, 2023.
17:40MSF has lost 15 of our staff.
17:43Those staff were killed
17:44on the job
17:45when they were working
17:46in medical facilities,
17:47when they were on route,
17:48when they were being transported
17:51using ambulances, etc.
17:53So there's been
17:55a pattern of attacks
17:57on medical facilities
17:59and medical personnel
18:00beyond MSF staff,
18:02all medical personnel
18:03within Gaza.
18:04That is at an unprecedented level.
18:06We've never, ever before
18:08seen the level of casualties
18:10for aid workers
18:11and medical personnel
18:12in a humanitarian context
18:15that we've seen now in Gaza.
18:16and that relates directly
18:19to the targeting,
18:22the destruction of buildings
18:24that contain medical facilities,
18:27the buildings where we work
18:28that are normally protected
18:30under internationally humanitarian law.
18:32One of the things that MSF does
18:33wherever we work
18:34is share the coordinates
18:35of the places where we work
18:37with the parties to a conflict
18:39to ensure that they're clear
18:41on what is a hospital,
18:43what is a medical clinic.
18:44And what we've seen in Gaza
18:47is that despite providing
18:48those coordinates,
18:49that information
18:50to the armed actors
18:51that repeatedly
18:52over the last three years now,
18:55we've seen attacks
18:56on medical facilities
18:57and direct casualties
18:58as a result of that.
18:59So that is one of the challenges
19:02that we face.
19:03The psychological impacts
19:05that that has on our staff
19:07are dire.
19:07when you take away
19:10the only protections
19:12that they thought they had,
19:13that they would be protected
19:14by international humanitarian law,
19:17that working for an organisation
19:19like MSF
19:20would afford them some protection,
19:22that's been sadly eroded in Gaza.
19:25What we're seeing now
19:26is that staff are exhibiting
19:30the impacts
19:31of long-term psychological harm.
19:34We have children,
19:37parents,
19:37who are traumatised
19:38by what they've seen.
19:39And as a result
19:41of the destruction
19:41of the health system,
19:42we don't have anywhere near
19:44the amount of capacity
19:45to provide mental health services
19:46to Palestinians.
19:48It often goes as one
19:49of the hidden dimensions
19:52of a conflict
19:53is the mental health crisis.
19:55And what we're seeing
19:56through the limited number
19:58of interventions that we can do
19:59around mental health,
20:00psychosocial first aid
20:01and helping people
20:03who've dealt with incredible loss
20:05is that this is having
20:08a marked impact
20:08not only on the individuals
20:10but on Palestinian society.
20:12Which is why I really commend MSF
20:15for standing up
20:17and standing your ground
20:18and not providing
20:19the personal information
20:21of your Palestinian staff
20:22to the Israeli authorities
20:24despite facing
20:25the threat of deregistration.
20:28You mentioned the destruction
20:30of the health system in Gaza.
20:31Has there been an opportunity
20:32to rebuild what has been
20:35annihilated in the past
20:37several years?
20:38We don't see any
20:39large-scale rebuilding as yet.
20:41We are repurposing
20:42buildings that are functional
20:45where possible.
20:46We still are using
20:47field hospitals and tents
20:49to run a lot of the services.
20:52As you're aware,
20:53the absolutely widespread destruction
20:57of the built environment
20:58in Gaza
20:59has created
21:00a whole lot of hazards.
21:02And we see people today
21:04trying to live
21:06in a makeshift shelters
21:07built out of the rubble
21:09of the buildings
21:09they previously called home.
21:11In winter,
21:13when it's raining,
21:14with the spread of disease,
21:15without sanitation,
21:17without electricity.
21:17All of those things
21:19compact the impacts
21:21on people's health.
21:22They combine to create
21:24an absolutely horrific environment
21:26for people to try
21:27and survive in.
21:29So, no,
21:29those hospitals,
21:30where possible,
21:30we're trying to rebuild
21:33slowly capacity
21:34on the sites
21:35where the previous hospitals were
21:36to make sure
21:37that they're not repurposed
21:38for other uses.
21:40We're looking at
21:41trying to locate
21:41our services near
21:42where people want to go back,
21:44where they want to go back
21:45to their homes.
21:46We want to be located
21:47where people are going to be,
21:48not where the Israelis
21:49want us necessarily
21:51to locate
21:52for their own political
21:53or commercial interests.
21:55So, there is a challenge
21:56there around
21:58giving agency
21:59to Palestinians
22:00to be able
22:01to determine
22:03where our future services
22:05should be,
22:05where they will rebuild.
22:07That, as yet,
22:08is not really happening.
22:09The clearance of rubble
22:11will take a very long time
22:13and then disputes
22:14over the purpose
22:15and the use of that land
22:17will be another element
22:18under the ceasefire
22:19that will be challenging
22:20for Palestinians.
22:21You mentioned several times
22:23during our conversation
22:24the IHL,
22:26the International Humanitarian Law
22:28and the hope still
22:31that it will prevail.
22:33Is there still hope
22:35despite it being
22:38blatantly ignored
22:40and the weaponization
22:41of aid
22:42being thrown in our faces
22:44and on our screens
22:46these past few years?
22:48You have to hold on to hope
22:49when hope is all you've got left.
22:51And we're seeing that
22:52very much
22:53as an important part
22:54of how we communicate
22:55our mission
22:56to Palestinians.
22:58We're not giving up.
22:59We recognize
23:00that international humanitarian law
23:02has been devastated.
23:03devastated.
23:04It's been eroded
23:05substantially
23:06by what we've seen
23:07take place
23:07in Gaza
23:09and we're appealing
23:10to responsible states
23:12around the world,
23:13moderate states,
23:14to ensure that
23:15Gaza becomes
23:17a short-lived exception
23:18around international
23:20humanitarian law abuses,
23:22not the new norm.
23:24We want to further strengthen
23:26international humanitarian law.
23:27We want to protect
23:28the hard-fought negotiations
23:30over decades
23:31to create laws
23:33that ensure
23:34that atrocities
23:35don't happen
23:36in the future.
23:37It saddens
23:39all of us
23:40around the world
23:40to see
23:41what's happening
23:42in Gaza
23:42and we recognize
23:44that a lot
23:45can be prevented
23:46if states will
23:48and parties to a conflict
23:49will respect
23:50humanitarian laws.
23:51These are the foundations
23:52of humanity.
23:53These are the values
23:54and principles
23:55that we all share
23:56that transgress
23:58all our faiths,
23:59all of our beliefs
23:59and if we can't agree on that
24:02there's nothing really
24:03we can agree on.
24:05So we're holding on to it
24:06with great determination
24:07and we need states
24:09including the government
24:10of Malaysia
24:10to be one of those
24:11strong voices
24:12advocating
24:13for international
24:14humanitarian law.
24:15You're right.
24:15We can't give up hope for it.
24:17We have to tell the Palestinians
24:18we are not giving up hope.
24:20Would you have a message for us
24:21in the couple of minutes
24:22that we have left
24:22a message for our audience
24:24that you may want them to know
24:26regarding
24:26the situation
24:28Gaza
24:29the work that you're doing
24:30the need
24:31the urgent need
24:31to support
24:32the work?
24:34You've said it for me
24:36largely there
24:36but if I was to
24:38take that message
24:39away from you.
24:39If I was to rephrase that
24:40I think
24:41you know
24:41we have to
24:45create
24:46a feeling
24:47a mindset
24:48around Gaza
24:48that is based on hope
24:50that is based on
24:52the ability
24:54of people
24:54like your viewers
24:56to be able
24:57to make a difference
24:58at times
24:59where we witness
25:00the actions
25:01of states
25:02being outside
25:03of what we think
25:05should be the norm
25:06or what we think
25:06would be responsible action
25:08by a state
25:09the responsibility
25:10then falls to us
25:11that we have to let
25:13our concerns known
25:14we have to
25:15approach our leaders
25:16we have to inform
25:17our leaders
25:17that this is not good enough
25:19that we demand
25:20that there's
25:20greater action
25:21to protect humanity
25:23and to take
25:24the right decisions
25:26irrespective of
25:27what we see
25:28happening now
25:28with a broadening
25:30conflict in the Middle East
25:32we have to stand up
25:33and speak up about this
25:34and that's really
25:35who MSF is
25:36we're an organisation
25:37that is a medical
25:37humanitarian organisation
25:39but we were founded
25:40by doctors
25:41and journalists
25:42with a commitment
25:43to speak out
25:43that we weren't
25:44going to be quiet
25:45about witnessing
25:47humanitarian
25:48atrocities
25:49that we were going
25:49to do whatever we could
25:51to raise awareness
25:52and to demand
25:53that people take action
25:54and that's the conviction
25:55I want us all
25:56to take forward
25:56that it falls on us
25:58our generation
25:59to make a difference here
26:01to bear witness
26:02right yeah
26:02thank you so much
26:03for your time Simon
26:04it's been such a joy
26:05talking to you
26:05thank you
26:06thank you Melissa
26:07that's all the time
26:07we have for you
26:08on this episode
26:08of Consider This
26:09I'm Melissa Idris
26:10signing off for the evening
26:11thank you so much
26:12for watching
26:12good night
26:20I'm Melissa Idris
26:21I'm Melissa Idris
26:21I'm Melissa Idris
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