- 1 week ago
- #considerthis
The safety of children on roads is more than just car seats and child restraint systems; it’s about culture, law, and shared responsibility. On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with road safety educator Dr Jchanet Tan, co-founder of the NGO, Child Passenger Safety Malaysia, and founder of the Global Road Safety Alliance.
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00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to The Future is Female. This is the
00:15show where we find the extraordinary in every woman. I am very delighted to introduce my guest
00:22today, Dr. Shanette Tan, who is the co-founder of the NGO Child Passenger Safety Malaysia,
00:27as well as the social enterprise called the Global Road Safety Alliance. Shanette, welcome to the show.
00:35Thank you so much for being here with me. I have really wanted to talk to you for many years and
00:40I think the stars have aligned and you are here now on the show. Could you maybe begin our conversation
00:47today with telling our audience a little bit about your journey, your advocacy journey. What first
00:55opened your eyes to the issue of child passenger safety and what made you want to say to yourself,
01:01this is a fight I want to lead? Okay, as with all advocacy, it usually starts with us ourselves.
01:10So I grew up kind of overseas. I also work overseas. So automatically when I have my children,
01:17so I thought, okay, so these are the things that first time mothers should buy. And one of the items
01:22overseas is that you need to have a child restrain system. So, but then I realised, eh, these are not
01:29readily available here. And then when I came back, I lugged my seat back from overseas. I started using
01:36it and I find that the more I use it, everybody looks at me, find that I'm this weird alien having
01:43this big bulky armour along. Then I find that, hmm, I really need to do something about it. Because
01:51during my weekend meetups with other mothers, I find that a lot of people actually don't know much
01:58about safety. And to me, I find it like amazing. How can nobody knows about this? Okay. And one fateful day,
02:06when a friend of mine had her child involved in a crash, that became a pivot point where I said that,
02:14you know what, this is something that we, it's either it's going to be us or it's not going to be
02:20nobody. So together with two other mothers, we founded Child Passenger Safety Malaysia.
02:25So you decided to take some action, do something yourself, spread the word about Child Passenger Safety.
02:31Actually, you are right. Maybe when we talk about Child Passenger Safety, what does that mean? Because
02:35you use the term Child Restraint System. And I'm assuming that means child seat, a car seat. Okay.
02:42So talk to me about what road safety means for children particularly.
02:49Okay. So let me start with that first. Usually people will call it a car seat. Okay. But the proper
02:54term is called a Child Restraint System. Okay. Because doing the advocacy when we're doing education,
03:01I realize that when I tell parents, put the car seat on the car seat, then they'll look at me.
03:05Car seat on the car seat. Okay. So that's why Child Restraint System is a proper word. Of course,
03:12sometimes we call it safety seat. Sometimes we call it child seat. Sometimes we call it baby seat.
03:16All right. So Child Restraint System is a proper word. Now, what is road safety to me is that the awareness
03:23that we actually share the road with others. Not only are we drivers, sometimes we also share the road
03:30with cyclists. We share the road with motorcyclists, pedestrians. So that road safety encompasses everything
03:39about safety in and around the road. I love that. Awareness that we share the road with others.
03:45So that talks about all the kind of other risks and situations that we should be mindful of.
03:51It's a little bit about being conscious because in Malaysia, we are actually very lucky, very fortunate.
03:59We don't have a lot of natural disaster. Okay. And because of that, a lot of us parents feel that,
04:06you know, we're in a very safe country. There's a lot of things that we don't need to worry about,
04:09including being on the road. So we are very lackadaisical when we're on the road. We don't buckle up.
04:16The time when we do buckle up is, oh, there's a police on the block in front. So we go put on
04:22the seatbelt. Absolutely. Okay. Talk to me a little bit about that situation in Malaysia,
04:27lucky as we are for all the other ways. But what do the numbers tell us? What do the patterns and
04:34trends tell us about children's road safety in particular, if you don't mind me asking?
04:39Patterns in Malaysia, you mean? Yeah. I mean, how safe are our children on the road?
04:45Unsafe. Unsafe. Okay. Our latest data, according to our statistics department,
04:53we rank actually third among all ASEAN countries in terms of road crashes. Yes. Wow. And then our highest,
05:05at one point, on the 28th of September, we rank about 1,700 crashes a day. That's incredible. Yes.
05:15That was one of our highest 1,000, not 170, it's 1,700 crashes a day. Okay. Though then many people say,
05:24oh, it's just crashes, no death. But I believe that all of us could be a little bit safer because
05:32injuries do happen as we see the result one at the toll. Yes. Unfortunate. And then even yesterday,
05:39there was another crash that happened. Oh, right. For teenagers. So all of these, yes,
05:44I did see the viral vid dash cam for that. So these crashes, some of them are definitely preventable,
05:51deaths definitely preventable. I want to talk about the current laws that are in place for
05:58for child restraint systems. Yeah. Okay. Talk to me a little bit about that because I recall in
06:062020, we passed a law about making child restraint mandatory. Yeah, mandatory. Has that been
06:15sufficient? Has that been in use? Has that been effective? Okay. The law has been passed in 2019.
06:21Okay. Supposed to be enforced on the 1st of January 2020. However, at that time, we were talking about
06:27six months of awareness and education campaign before we make it mandatory. Okay. And of course,
06:33we all know COVID-19. Sorry, before I get into that, could you maybe explain what the law was? Because
06:39I was surprised to know that I didn't realize child restraint system laws meant that a car seat must be
06:48used up to the age of 12. Yes. Okay. Tell me more about that. So our regulation states that any
06:55children below the age of 12, below the weight of 36 kilograms or 145 cm needs to be in a proof
07:05crash-tested child restraint system. And they are supposed to be seated at the back. So that is our law.
07:13I would say one of the best in the world so far, because a lot of countries have it up to eight
07:19years old. So when we wrote ours, we actually like, we are the top. Let's not talk about enforcement,
07:26but in terms of enacting a written law, we are kind of like one of the best. Why do you think that
07:35it was written that way? Why keep children in a car seat until the age of 12?
07:41Why? It's because our body structure of a child, although they may be big in size, they are actually
07:49not as strong. Ossification is not as strong. They cannot protect our internal organs. So a child
07:55needs to be properly restrained. Yes. Then some parents will argue, I'm also very short and then the
08:01seatbelt actually don't quite fit. So why is it safe for me but not safe for the child? Simply because a
08:07child's bone is actually very soft. They are still growing. So you see that they actually break
08:12internally. They don't crack outwards. Yes. So a lot of times when a child gets injured, they are
08:18actually bleeding internally. Whereas for us, we see a broken bone, it kind of like punctures out.
08:23Yeah. So that's the difference why 12. In certain countries, they even have seats for a child up to 16.
08:31Because that's when they are full grown adult size, in terms of the length, in terms of the ossification,
08:39for them to be an armour to protect your internal organs. Wow. So I understand that you received the
08:47International Instructor of the Year Award from the National Passenger Safety Board in the US.
08:53And that was for your contribution to the passage of child passenger safety regulations here Malaysia.
09:00Talk to me a little bit about your involvement. How do you go about teaching people about this?
09:06How do I go to teaching people? It's all about meeting parents where they are. A lot of other
09:13countries, they start with top-down, as in the legislation is passed through the cabinet,
09:18and then after the law is passed, rolls down to the public, right? Right. For us here in Malaysia,
09:23it started with three of us parents doing community events. We're meeting where parents are. Right.
09:29So it is kind of an overflow. We call it an outreach program. So that is the difference. And then when
09:38we receive sufficient enough support and we push it through, which I would say, quite an amazing
09:45feat in a very short time. Wow. So you mentioned just now, law enacted 2019,
09:52it was supposed to be enforced in 2020, COVID hit. Where do you think we are at now?
09:58Where do you think we are at now? Very good. Okay. Our real seatbelt law has been there since 2009.
10:07Our usage today is not even 70% yet. So where do you think we are with child seats?
10:19The last record that Myros gave was about 30%. For child seats? Yes, usage. However, I believe if you
10:27do include outskirts and rural areas, we are actually way lower than that. Okay. And what do you think
10:35are some of the common reasons or common barriers that prevent families from using child
10:45restraint systems? A very common one, it will never happen to me. I'm a very safe driver.
10:51Okay. Okay. So the thinking of I'm a safe driver when my children are in the car, I will make sure that
10:57I'm safe. I won't speed. I won't, I'll be extra careful. So my children don't really need a car seat.
11:03I think one of the, the many times whenever we do education, a lot, that was the first phrase that
11:09said, Hey, I'm a safe driver. I drive very slow. I usually just drive my kids to school,
11:15short distances, across the street, you know, less than five kilometers, less than 10 minutes away.
11:21That is the usual response that we get. However, studies have also shown crashes are higher
11:29when you're closest to home or to your destination, because that's when you relax. Oh, I've arrived.
11:36And then you kind of like not as alert anymore. Wow. It's, it's all behavioral. It's all behavioral.
11:43A lot of times we feel that, oh, we are almost home. We're safe. And a lot of times when we're
11:49almost home, we kind of open the belt before we arrive. That's one. Another one, I would think
11:54is a lot of cultural because most of our families here are large. Okay. We, we not only have one or two
12:02children. Sometimes we have our in-laws, we have our brothers, our sisters, our father, our mother,
12:08our in-laws that join us. So many of times, if you have a seat in the car, you'll find that you
12:13cannot ferry as much people. You're right. Okay. So that is also a deterrent. However, what people fail
12:19to realize is unbelted kids or unbelted passengers are also projectiles in the car. That means they might
12:29cause you to have injuries during a road accident. So actually, that's a really good point. So when
12:38families are big and our cars are smaller, as we've seen in, in Malaysia as well, what kind of
12:47support or solutions are needed to make sure that child restraint systems are in use, rear seatbelts are
12:54in use. What do you think is needed to get over some of those cultural and socio-economic barriers?
13:04I would say it's an honest challenge because a lot of families really can't afford to have two or three
13:10cars. Okay. Even though the wife and the husband will drive, sometimes they have the kids, not just
13:16one, maybe three or four, and then they have the in-laws that they need to ferry. So it's difficult for them
13:21to have two or three cars to go out altogether. Parking may be an issue. Another issue is a good
13:29crash-tested seat, sometimes maybe above budget. Because if I have three kids, even though it's only
13:35at RM300, that means I will need to buy three that's RM900. Higher than a lot of what we can afford.
13:43And also, it will have to change as your children grow, right? Because you need to get bigger and
13:48more different. But then what I also noticed in other countries is there needs to be a will to want
13:57to have change. And many, many places have also said that education needs to go hand in hand with
14:04enforcement. Why we are reluctant is because there is no enforcement. Enforcement will say we don't enforce
14:11because there's no education. Yeah, it's two ways. They blame the other. Yes, I said to me, the chicken
14:18and the egg, you need to have both. And if we value life enough, we would use safety protection while we
14:28travel. It's the same like what I tell my other parents when I do my education. Would you allow your
14:35child to cook unattended in the kitchen? Would you allow your child to use a knife or a scissors?
14:42If you won't, why would you allow your child to ride unrestrained in the car? Because if you use
14:49the stove at home, only a slight burn. If you use a knife or a scissors, only a side cut, you won't die.
14:56But if the child ride unbelted in the car, injury is high, death is even higher. So it's a lot about
15:08how much you love your kid. Well, okay, so let's talk about these education campaigns. I think
15:15especially any education campaign to do with children, sometimes it can slip into maybe guilt or fear.
15:23How do you communicate the urgency of this issue without it kind of alienating or shaming parents? And
15:30often I have also asked this question to advocates of keeping children, you know, the forgotten baby
15:38syndrome. So I've also spoken to some, it's a very delicate issue. So not shaming, not putting in fear.
15:45Blaming, we're also not shaming them. But we want you to know that crashes are real.
15:53Accidents are real as well. And how to prevent yourself from being in that situation is to do
16:00preventive measures. That's why we always say prevention is better than cure, right?
16:03Then a lot of parents will say, I have five kids, so what am I going to do?
16:07The honest truth is sometimes if you really love them, take turns because that's what other parents
16:16in other countries do. Sometimes parents will say, oh, it's easy for you to say, but if all the kids
16:23want to go for dinner, how can I take turns? Should I not bring them out? Then I say, perhaps write in,
16:29grab share, write share. I'm not really sure how we got to do it.
16:33Yeah. Yeah. Well, what about that? I mean, when we think about ride share platforms,
16:39is that also realistic to expect the ride share platforms to provide car seats in the car?
16:47Overseas, they do provide. In Malaysia, it's not enforced, it's not required.
16:54So public transport, they're considered public transport, isn't it?
16:57Yes. But then it's also the impact of understanding that in ride share,
17:05if you order a four-passenger car, you only get to seat four. You can't squeeze in ten.
17:10But in our own cars, you might squeeze in ten little kids inside. If you go to any school,
17:17you probably will see ten little kids inside of a seven-seater car.
17:20Correct. So when you mentioned other countries, the practice in other countries, when you look
17:26at other countries who have successfully implemented this or changed behaviour, changed the culture,
17:33essentially, what is it that they're doing? Have you studied how we can effectively change behaviour
17:41around child passenger safety? You got to be cruel to be kind.
17:47I was like, is that the enforcement talking? Yes, you have to be cruel to be kind. Because
17:52if you really want things to change, you have to put your foot down and say that this is what
17:56we're going to do. I'm going to give you six months, you got to figure it out. Right.
17:59Because when at that time, 2019, when we decided we want to do it, there was a lot of backlash.
18:05However, when we did our outreach programme, we did receive a lot of positive comments. We have
18:10grandparents coming to say, I want to fetch my grandchildren safely. How do I go about? I can't
18:16afford a safety seat, but how can I ferry them safely? So these are the things we want to impart.
18:22Let's start by one step at a time. If you can't use safety seats, can we use the seat belts? Right.
18:27Okay. If you can't use, you have five kids and you only have three seat belts, can we decide who we're
18:33going to belt first? Like weigh out the odds, you know, to give them the higher chance of survival.
18:39Let's start with that. Right. So it's a step at a time. How are we going to protect the most
18:45vulnerable ones? Right. What do you say to parents who think that the kids are safer on their laps in
18:51the front seat compared to in the back and unrestrained or in the back with, you know, moving around?
18:59Something as simple as, let's say you're riding in a car, riding at 60 kilometres per hour. If you step on
19:09the brakes, you will go at the speed of 60 kilometres per hour forward. And your weight,
19:17let's say you're at 50 kilos, that is the weight that you are when you hit the dashboard.
19:22So if you have a child sitting on your lap. Yes. So imagine even your child, let's say if only
19:29five kilos and you're going at 50 kilometres an hour, that is what 250? You're transferring all
19:36that weight onto the child. That child is 250 kilos. Oh, wow. Yes. Can you hold a 250 kilogram
19:45baby? A lot of people can't. It's something that's simple. Even when your husband or your boyfriend
19:50breaks, you'll go forward, right? You know that they are breaking and you still cannot stop yourself
19:55from going forward. So what about your child in your lap? There's going to be a hamburger in between
19:59you and the airbag. And we have had cases where the child actually dies because he was crashed in
20:07between you and the airbag. The airbag impact is really very big. Before I move on, I want to ask you,
20:162017 wasn't it when you first started this movement or this advocacy? Officially, we registered
20:22ourselves in 2017. But we started in 2015. So 2015, goodness. So that's a good 10 years of doing
20:31advocacy work. Have you seen signs that the message is landing, that there are changes happening? Is there
20:40a shift happening? Oh, there is. When we first started, our Facebook group only had less than 500
20:46members. Right now, today, we have close to 300,000 members with almost more than half of them
20:52uses a safety seat. At that time, we were starting a real-facing-only seat for babies, newborns, and then
20:59it went up to two to four years old. Today, we have parents asking us to buy boosters. So we did see
21:05like six to seven-year-old sometimes still uses boosters. So it is a change, very slowly but surely.
21:12So we have seen. I also love that your advocacy has evolved or expanded bigger. So you are also
21:19founder of the Global Road Safety Alliance. Talk to me about why it's important to expand it to
21:25include all road users. Oh, because our kids have grown. They are no longer babies.
21:3010 years later, they are now driving the cars. No, not yet driving but then they are starting to use
21:37the bicycle. Some of them are riding the motorbikes and then they are riding in the cars. They are no
21:42longer in safety seats but right now they are using seat belts. So we have expanded not only just about
21:48child, we are also expanded to all road users. So we talk about pedestrians, we talk about drivers,
21:54cyclists, motorcyclists, yeah. Wonderful. And talk to me a little bit about some of the risks that we
22:00as road users need to be mindful of. And I think about the most vulnerable road users, right? The
22:09pedestrians, the cyclists, the two-wheelers. Yes. I think one of the things that we need to realise is
22:17visibility. A lot of times people feel that the bus can see me, the car can see me, the motorbike can see me.
22:30Actually, they may not be able to see you. Sometimes the truck drivers will feel that I'm so big,
22:37the motorcycle and the car may be able to see me. However, they fail to realise, yes, you're very big.
22:45However, the motorbike is so far away, they may not know where you want to go. There are a few instances
22:53where the truck was trying to turn right and then like motorcycle got caught in between and stuff like
22:59that. So it's about visibility, it's also about tolerance, especially running a red light. Tolerance,
23:05talk to me about that. Tolerance! Ah, very simple. If you stop at the red light and you start honking,
23:12people will honk you okay if you don't move. So we are not very tolerant in that sense. We are tak sabah.
23:18Tak sabah. Okay, in that case, can I ask you then, I mean, maybe to our viewers at home in the couple
23:24minutes that we have left. What is your message to the viewers today in terms of tolerance on the road,
23:31in terms of making everyone's journey a little bit safer and to end on the, on how you said,
23:37the awareness that we share the road with others. So whether we're parents, whether we're grandparents
23:43and relatives or simply fellow road users, what is it that we need to keep in mind if we want to
23:51make sure that we all get to where we're going safely? Safer. Purely put, we want to get from
23:57point A to point B safer, right? Yeah. A message that I want to share to all is that we need to be
24:04conscious that we might be very safe drivers, riders. However, others may not be as safe as us.
24:13And for us to be that is always prevention better than cure. Something as simple as wearing your proper
24:18helmet, buckling up in your seat belts, as well as using a safety seat. We have education programs
24:26where we teach you how to buckle your seat belt properly to, yes, to optimize your safety. Wow.
24:34Yes. To buckle the seat, like, like on the airplane where they have the, how to use your seat belt. Yes.
24:41Wow. It actually makes a difference. If you have it buckled properly and placed in the right position,
24:48even including the distance from you between the dashboard or you with your steering wheel,
24:54it may make a difference in terms of the severity of your injuries. Yes. So if you know that you're
25:01sharing your road with others, maybe a little bit more patience, not running the red light, not staying
25:06too close. And something that I teach parents to be a little bit mindful is when you want to go on the
25:14green light, maybe count one, two, three before you go, because sometimes you will see one
25:19sole motorbike running across. Yes. Okay. So just, just be extra vigilant in any case.
25:26Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing some of these tips, brilliant insights,
25:31and also a reminder to all of us to be safer on the roads. Thank you so much. Thank you for having
25:37me. You're most welcome. That's all we have for you on this episode of The Future is Female.
25:41I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening. Thanks so much for watching and good night.
25:58I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
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