- 2 days ago
- #thefutureisfemale
What if the future of food lies in what we usually throw away? A food technologist working at the forefront of food innovation is working on transforming underused ingredients and by-products into viable food solutions, to enhance the nutritional value of everyday meals. On this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale Melisa Idris speaks with Professor Ts Dr Chong Li Choo, Director of Taylor’s University’s Food Security and Nutrition Impact Lab.
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00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to The Future is Female.
00:15This is the show where we find the extraordinary in every woman.
00:19Now the festive season like Hari Raya and Ramadan is always time of abundance
00:25where tables are filled and homes are open and friends and family gather together, especially to eat.
00:35However, alongside all of that abundance is another problem, a quieter problem.
00:41Food waste on a significant scale.
00:44So today on The Future is Female, we'll take a closer look at food choices and food waste
00:51and the role each of us can play in building more mindful and sustainable habits.
00:57So joining me to discuss this further, I'm delighted to introduce my guest today,
01:02Professor Dr Cheung Lee Chu, who is the director of Taylor's University's Food Security and Nutrition Impact Lab.
01:11Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me here today.
01:15What a great topic to be interested in and to have studied as your academic field.
01:21How did you come about that? Maybe you can begin our conversation today by telling me a bit about yourself,
01:27but also what sparked your interest in studying food security and nutrition and sustainability.
01:35Hi Melissa, thank you for having me.
01:39I'm a food technologist and throughout the years working in the university,
01:44I focused very much on healthy food product development and innovations,
01:49focusing also on food sustainability.
01:54My story starts with a very simple food that everyone knows, which is instant noodles.
02:04Back then as a secondary school student, about 30 years ago, I enjoy eating instant noodles.
02:15But I was told that this is not a healthy option.
02:18So this sparked my questions, why a food which is convenient and widely accepted,
02:26but they feel to deliver nutrition's needs.
02:30So this is my story begin where I venture into healthy food products development.
02:35And I remember after STPM, I have to choose my degree program.
02:45Food technology definitely is my first choice.
02:49I love that, by the way, and I also love instant noodles.
02:52And also have heard that repeated advice that, oh, don't eat so much because it's not nutritious,
03:01it's not good for you.
03:03When you introduce yourself as a food technologist and people say, what's that?
03:09How do you describe what that work is?
03:12Yes.
03:12Yeah.
03:13I think the same questions also from my parents.
03:17That time when I decided to study food technology and not pharmacy, which they wish.
03:24And yeah, of course, now they are proud of what I'm doing.
03:29I would say food technology is something that we apply technology using food science knowledge
03:36and to develop the food which is, you know, not just nutritious balance,
03:42but also nice to eat, yummy to eat, you know.
03:46So yeah, this is what a food technologist can do.
03:49So I noticed you have a book there. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
03:53Oh, okay. This is Going Bananas. A lesson in sustainability.
03:59So I would say this book very meaningful to me and also make who I am today.
04:06Okay. Maybe a little bit of story again. Yeah. When I'm studying my postgraduate study
04:12because of the passions in product innovation, I choose to continue in this field.
04:17So I think back then, food product innovation or development is not something mainstream in food research.
04:26Yeah. Beside all the lab tests I'm doing, I have to stay in kitchen, do a lot of food formulation.
04:34Yeah. So people, sometimes people look at it, it's like, oh, okay, this is masak-masak.
04:39Like chef. Yes, yes. So I did questions. So how are these going to make impact?
04:47I start to doubt, you know, what I'm doing is right.
04:50Not until I get the opportunity to work on this project, The Going Bananas.
04:55It's a collaboration between the university and also Pharma Penang, if not mistaken.
05:02So we have to reach out to the community in Kampong Police Balik Pulau Penang.
05:07So working with a group of farmers. So with the title, we know that this is about bananas.
05:13Okay. It's a type of banana which is underutilized. We call pisang awak.
05:18Oh, I've never heard of pisang awak.
05:20Yeah. So it's more to a green bananas or planting meant for cooking.
05:25Yeah. So what we are doing is, this is a multidisciplinary project where we work with the tissue culture team
05:34and myself on the banana fruits itself and also arts team where we turn the banana sudor stamp or trunk
05:44into craft paper.
05:46So my end is, we turn these underutilized fruits into healthy ingredients which can apply in various food product development.
05:55And then of course the cell tissue is how to help the farmer to increase the yield of this type
06:02of crop.
06:03So it's really a meaningful project. And when I see how the farmer can move beyond just farming and making
06:12some value from what is underutilized,
06:16it's from Malaysia and then make their life better. So this boost my confidence in the area.
06:22I thought that, oh yeah, you know, food innovation is not just about research. It's making, changing people's lives.
06:30Yeah. It's the impact of it, right?
06:32Correct.
06:33Because that's why you spend so much time searching and in the lab and, you know, testing all the different
06:39things.
06:40Yeah.
06:40So that there is an impact. That's a really wonderful way to, I've never had pisang awak.
06:46So can you give me an example of how that product is now being used in different food sources?
06:53Okay. Pisang awak is more to a plantain, meaning that cooking bananas, meaning that they are very high in starches.
07:00Not like the eating bananas, they're ripe and then they're sweetened, but this is less sugar.
07:05So they are very high in resistant starch, something that, you know, our guts are not easy to digest
07:11and then they will help us to create a micro flora system so that they have a good micro room
07:17inside our stomach.
07:19And it keeps us fuller longer.
07:21Yes, of course. Yeah. So with that, basically we have invented a few products like the high fiber noodles.
07:27We have some crackers from it, cakes, etc.
07:31So you have high fiber noodles from pisang awak?
07:36Yes.
07:37I would have never guessed you could make noodles out of bananas.
07:42Yeah. So this is where the challenge of creating this kind of healthy food products, I would say.
07:48Because, yeah, when it's high fiber, it's not like just using, what is it, the wheat flour.
07:54Yeah. So it will be very easy to break. The mouthfeel is not there.
07:59So this is where we use our expertise, the knowing the ingredient science, knowing the cooking, the science of cooking,
08:08to make this happen.
08:10Something that people will still like it. At the same time, they bring in the nutrients or something good to
08:15our body.
08:16Is that very difficult, trying to make food delicious, food commercially viable at the same time?
08:28I just wonder what the trade-offs are.
08:32If you ask me, is it easy? The answer is no. It's just that you need a lot of R
08:41&D, the R&D side and how to select the right ingredients and how to adjust, I would say the
08:48balance.
08:49A lot of times when we say we develop healthy food, our so-called baker challenge is we want to
08:56put everything into a food system.
08:59Like noodles, you want to make it high fiber, high nutrients, you know, everything.
09:04All the good things in one product.
09:06Yeah. So when we want a perfect product, it might not work.
09:09So my approach is always say, let's make graduate improvement.
09:14We make a high fiber noodles, you know, this is good already because compared to only carbs, they provide fiber.
09:21So at the same time, slowly we can improve it further, enhance it 45 with some minerals, vitamins or even
09:29something that good for kids.
09:32You know, so yeah, maybe something that we can do step by step to make healthy food delicious.
09:39Okay. Yeah. Because if you want to put everything into one product, it's the unicorn of a product, right?
09:47Not to say cannot, but it will be challenging because food is so subjective when it comes to taste, you
09:53know, the texture that everybody doesn't have the same, you know, preference.
09:58So yeah, no need to like make everyone like your products, but a certain group of people who are looking
10:07at these nutrition needs.
10:09Right. Yeah.
10:10Why is it important, do you think, that there is continuous food innovation, particularly in addressing nutrition or even as
10:20your wonderful example of the pisang awa, using or utilizing underutilized products?
10:29Why is that important that we have continuous food innovation?
10:35This is something that we have to do. I would say that it's not that you want to do or
10:40not to do, but you have to do.
10:42Because now generation is different. What they are eating is different from previous.
10:47But if we are not innovating it, we might not able to tap on to what the new generation like,
10:55especially the kids or the children.
10:57So this is what I always concern. We tend to tell the kids what to eat, what not to eat.
11:02But have we actually create a food environment, a healthy food environment that they have a lot of choices which
11:10accessible, easily accessible.
11:12I know that this noodles is good because they are high in fiber. I know that this biscuit is good
11:17because they have better carotene.
11:20You know, something that children can choose. So that's why we cannot, I'm not so sure whether this thinking is
11:28good that to say that we can make, we should not ban nuggets.
11:32Okay. Which is something people say, no, nuggets might not be something a good choice for kids.
11:38But how if we able to create a nuggets which contains all the nutrients the kids need, but this is
11:45a food that the kids will like it because they are familiar.
11:50And this is something that they are creating for. So is it a responsibility as a food product developer to
11:56do this part?
11:58Wow. Okay. I have heard of the calls to, you know, not have nuggets in schools or wherever where children
12:08are, don't feed children nuggets because they think it's processed food.
12:11Yes, correct. It's not nutritionally packed. So is that happening in the industry? Based on your observation, are you noticing
12:20a lot of food innovation, particularly by product developers?
12:25Yes. The good thing is we see the positive move from the food industry. Yeah. Maybe from the past, we
12:34always have a negative perception that processed food is no good, which this is true.
12:39I have to say. But with technology coming in, you know, with a new ingredients being introduced, you know, to
12:46the industry, we can do better. So just now back to your questions. It's about nutrition.
12:53Yeah. Nutrition. Nutrition. Right. So I think we will be able to do that, especially using local ingredients like healthy
13:01ingredients. I do see companies start to use those high protein ingredients like Okara. Not sure you're aware of that.
13:10What is Okara? Okara is a byproducts from a tofu making, you know, the residue. So soybean based. So after
13:20they press out the soy milk, you know, they do the tofu or this, then they have the residue, which
13:27we call Okara, which is very high in protein.
13:31So in our project, one of our project, Nourish You, the impact projects, we have used it to turn into
13:39nuggets. So yeah, something that not just the kids like, we make the kids to try to make the nuggets
13:48themselves.
13:48So, you know, and at the same time, because it's only protein, I say, let's try. Why not we try
13:54some vegetables to be incorporated. So we put in vegetables inside a little bit here and there. So and then
14:01when the kids make it, they see that oh, there's vegetables is made by them, they start to like it.
14:06So I would say is we can do that through incorporate ingredients, healthy ingredients inside.
14:14Right. But in terms of the processing part, something that we need to further improve. Deep frying, high oil absorption
14:22during the deep frying process definitely is no good because obesity is an issue nowadays. So this is something that
14:29we need to control. Is there any technology can come in instead of using deep frying method, we can have
14:35others method where the fried, you know, products have less oil.
14:39Right. Right. Yeah. Okay, so so so many things to unpack there. But first, I'm curious to learn more about
14:46Nourish You. Tell me a little bit about this project, this initiative that you're working on. It sounds wonderful if
14:52we're making healthier nuggets and getting children to be involved in making them.
14:57Yeah. Yeah. Nourish You is one of our flagship project. When I curated initiated, when we start the Taylor's Food
15:09Security and Nutrition Impact.
15:11Yeah. So again, the ideas come from a very simple question that we ask every day. Sudah makan?
15:20Yeah. Like Chinese Hawken said, ciak bao bui. So it's a very Malaysian way that we have conversations, start the
15:27conversation, greeting people to show our cares, you know.
15:32But are we actually really care what people are eating, especially our children? Yeah. So I know that we already
15:41have nutrition program in Malaysia like RMT, the Rancangan Makanan Tampahan.
15:46We do have all this good program, but it's only applied in school time. The kids get to have one
15:52meal, very good meal that day.
15:54Yeah. But how about lunch and dinner? The rest of the day. Yeah. I'm thinking how about children from underprivileged
16:02family? What are they eating during lunch, during dinner?
16:06You know. So sometimes the decision is not made by them. It's by the parents, the caregiver, even the school
16:15or what is nearby, they can assess.
16:17So we cannot say blame the children like, you know, you are not eating healthy. But the parents, the caregiver,
16:25basically is the whole ecosystem need to make some changes.
16:30This is what I think. But we cannot put the blame on parents, caregiver or even the school because they
16:37have their own constraint.
16:38We know as a mother of two, we are busy with work. I really have no time to really cook
16:44in the kitchen every day for the kids. So I have to outsource, buy from outside.
16:52Yeah. Sometimes we feel guilty. And yeah, it's about convenience, it's about accessibility and also it's about cost.
17:00Because school candy, not to say that they don't want to prepare good food for kids or for the children,
17:06but there are limitations. It's a small business.
17:09So we are thinking if this part is something that can be bridged the gap, then it will be better.
17:17So under Norwich U, what we are doing is on one side, we're working with the food bank, our very
17:24good partner, Food Aid Foundation.
17:26So to use surplus food to come up with nutrients, then ready-to-eat meal.
17:34So with that, the food or the meal for the children are more affordable and at the same time, they
17:41are practical.
17:42Yeah. So the cost is reduced.
17:45And surplus food doesn't mean, surplus ingredient doesn't mean that it's no good, just that, no, they are excess, not
17:53being used.
17:53So instead of, like you mentioned about food waste, you know, why we want to throw away all these still
18:00edibles, ingredients, food, turn it into something more meaningful and feed those, we say, people who need this, this one.
18:08So on the other hand, what we, the Norwich U doing is definitely on the nutrition literacy, literacy workshop.
18:17Yeah.
18:17And not just for the kids, what we are focusing on is also those people who are preparing the food
18:24for the children, like the parents, like the school teacher, the tapika teachers who need to prepare the food and
18:31even the school.
18:33Nutrition literacy is so important, I think because it, it really helps you make better choices in whatever constraints that
18:43you're operating under.
18:45What have you found to be the things that you need to teach people the most?
18:49I, I wonder what levels of literacy are you, are you observing?
18:55Knowing the constraints all the parents are facing and also, you know, the school are facing, so what we are,
19:03propose to them or teach them is not about creating something very new or even complicated.
19:10Okay, make something simple, I would say, leverage on what we can assess, what we can do.
19:16For an example, we tell the parents, you know, when, or even the, the caterer, when you prepare soup for
19:24the kids, let's add in corncob, you know, the jagung, you know.
19:28Oh, yeah, yeah.
19:29So, why? Because that one actually can help to boost up some of the minerals like potassium, magnesium, you know,
19:36some fiber, some antioxidant for the kids.
19:39Why not?
19:40And when you want to cook curry, instead of using all the spices only, let's use pumpkin.
19:47You know, the color are similar and they are high in fiber, a lot of nutrients inside and the kids
19:53will enjoy it because it's something that they are familiar.
19:56You are not creating aliens for them.
19:59So, I think these are working, I would say this work for parents, for caretakers because they say, oh, okay,
20:07not that hard, yeah, can do, can do.
20:09Yeah, I say, yes, it can do.
20:10We just need here and there a bit to add on to what we are preparing.
20:16And I think I'm happy to see when some of the school, you know, some of the PPR parents come
20:23to us asking for recipe.
20:25Oh, wow.
20:26Yeah, meaning what? Meaning that they are open for this.
20:30This is something manageable to them.
20:32They are willing to do.
20:33Well, I think there is a real desire to want to feed our kids better.
20:37Yes.
20:37But we don't have the knowledge to do that.
20:40Well, I hope you put out a cookbook of recipes for this in the works.
20:45I'm very happy to hear that.
20:47One more thing that you mentioned a bit earlier that I'm quite curious about because you talked about food environment.
20:53And for those of us who don't think about what that is, what is the food environment?
20:58And because you are in this industry and you think a lot about food innovation, what are you hoping Malaysia's
21:06food environment is?
21:07Is there anything that you see and you think, oh, we really should change this or make it better in
21:13a way?
21:15I would say more to a healthy food environment.
21:19Malaysia is already doing it.
21:23We have nutrition program.
21:25We have all these healthy meal guidelines.
21:28We do have that.
21:30The challenge is very much on the implementation and consistency.
21:35So I would say we haven't built the healthy eating or healthy meal environment because the affordability, the accessibility, you
21:45know, is not there yet.
21:47Imagine you have to ask a busy people to eat healthy, but healthy food is not accessible or it's very
21:55expensive for a certain group of people.
21:57So at the end, they will go back to what they are familiar, what is convenience.
22:02Instant noodles.
22:04Yeah.
22:05Yes.
22:06So if we can make all these healthy food more accessible, managing the cost as well, definitely.
22:14And, you know, make people can have it anytime, anywhere.
22:19So I think this will work, especially for children.
22:23I always focus and say, what makes children like to eat junk food?
22:27Is it what the information exposed to them?
22:31So that's why for kids, repeated exposure to healthy food is important.
22:36You know, when you tell them that this is good, they see the advertisement, what is being advertised is healthy
22:42food instead of, you know, something junk food.
22:45And over time, the food that is exposed to them, they are familiar, it will be their preference choice.
22:53Yeah.
22:53So it's how we build the ecosystem, the surrounding with healthy food.
22:59That's a really good point about what we are exposed to, especially advertising and the like.
23:04Yes.
23:04So can I just ask for your advice, so your takeaway message for our viewers tonight, you know, if this
23:11issue resonates with them, they're passionate about this, particularly around changing eating habits, which is notoriously difficult if you want
23:20to eat healthier or eat more nutritious food.
23:25Do you have any advice for our audience today about what you have just, what you have observed works in
23:33changing behavior or how we can make better, more nutritious food choices?
23:39I think when, again, like I just now did mention, we no need to eat a perfect food that, you
23:46know, contains everything inside one food.
23:50Enjoy food, I would say, eat everything, but moderately is definitely one thing that we can do.
23:56And choose the food which is, you know, you enjoy eating, at the same time is suitable for you.
24:02When we say suitable, that meaning that you no need to force yourself to eat something that you don't like.
24:08Yeah.
24:08If that, people will tell you, Peter God is good, you know.
24:11Yeah.
24:12But if you really don't like Peter, you can go for something sweet.
24:17Some people don't like it, right?
24:19Yeah.
24:19There are lots of options out there, the healthy options out there.
24:23You can choose those less sugars, you know, so that less, if you cannot take sugar, then you can go
24:31for those zero sugar.
24:33There's a lot of, I would say, the alternative out there for you to choose.
24:37And secondly, I would say, go for balance.
24:41Go for customisation, balance in terms of nutrition, the taste, and of course, the cost.
24:49Yeah.
24:50Not to say that healthy food must be expensive food.
24:53That should not be.
24:55Yeah.
24:56And also, customisation, meaning like what I explained just now, follow what your body needs.
25:01And at the same time, smartly choose what you want.
25:05Definitely.
25:05Yeah.
25:06Thank you so much for being on the show and highlighting this very important issue for us,
25:11especially during this time when we are making, we should be making better food choices.
25:16Thank you so much for your time.
25:17That's all time we have for you on this episode of The Future is Female.
25:21I'm Melissa Idris, signing off for the evening.
25:24Thank you so much for watching and good night.
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