- 5 months ago
- #thefutureisfemale
On this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale Melisa Idris speaks with Nurul Ezzati Mohamed Nasir, Co-founder & CEO of the social enterprise TEMAN Malaysia about building alternatives to institutional care, and why Temanions may be the key to helping more Malaysians age with dignity at home.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to The Future is Female. This is the show where we
00:16find the extraordinary in every woman. I am delighted to introduce my guest today, Nurul
00:21Izati Muhammad Nasir, who is the co-founder and CEO of the social enterprise Teman Malaysia. Let's
00:28find out more about the work that she's doing. Izati, welcome to the show. Thank you so
00:31much for joining me. Thank you for the invite. I don't know much about Teman except when I first
00:38came across Teman, it was highlighted by Yayasan Hassanah, which has given you some funding.
00:45This is, I think, a huge vote of confidence into your work. So tell us, or introduce Teman
00:52to us and tell us a little bit about the work that you're doing with Teman and what it is
00:57that you're seeking to address. What gap are you seeking to address through it?
01:01Alright. So actually, Teman Malaysia provide social companionship, care companionship for
01:07elderly, where we match our caregivers, whom we call Temanians, to our elderly for them
01:14to do their daily activities, going to hospital appointments and also caring for them at home.
01:18Okay. I love the term Temanians. It's clever. So it's a combination of companion, teman and
01:27companion. Yeah, it's actually a play of words, something that we created ourselves. It's actually
01:32a combination of teman and companion. You're actually correct. Oh, that's great. Okay.
01:35So Temanians. So how does the model work? So the Temanians are your staff or the people
01:43that you've recruited. Okay. Explain how it works and what it is that you're trying to
01:47address. Alright. So our Temanians are actually our freelancers. So when our customers go on
01:56our platform, our website or our social media, they can contact us to say that they want to
02:02book a Temanian to help them in certain activities. So when we get their request, we will advertise
02:09the job to our Temanians, our freelancers. And then we will set a suitable Temanian
02:14for them. And then they will accompany the elderly to do whatever they like to do.
02:20How did you come up with this idea? Could you maybe explain a little bit about how you came
02:29up with the idea or the experience or moment, the pivotal moment that gave you the kind of
02:37courage and the impetus to begin the social enterprise?
02:41Alright. So Teman actually started from an incubator program called SIDLAB, Social Enterprise
02:47Education Laboratory. It is an initiative by Petronas and also Tata Consultancy Services.
02:53So I'm very grateful to them. The objective of that incubator program is actually to produce
02:59social enterprises that solve social problem. So during my time, the first cohort, our main
03:07objective is to help solve youth unemployment. So the program started in January 2020 actually,
03:13before COVID, just before COVID. So the timing.
03:18Yes, the timing. I was so happy going to the program and the place was nice and everything.
03:24But three months in, we have to go back to our homes. And then me and my friends at that
03:30time were given the care sector. So we were looking at women, children, elderly, so many
03:37parts. So when the lockdown happened, the most prominent issue that we see is the movement
03:44restriction order where the children actually cut off from getting into their parents.
03:49They're not able to assist their parents. So at the same time, a lot of people are retrenched
03:55from work as well. So they don't have any job to live by during that time. So when we come
04:03up with the idea, why don't we just couple the two problems together and then we just do a care
04:10companionship service for the people, the terminus, to help the elderly with their daily activities.
04:15So give me an example, maybe paint a picture for me, a day in the life of a temanian.
04:22What kind of activities are they doing? What kind of services? What kind of companionship
04:27or temanian services are they doing?
04:29Okay. So when we initially started, we are only looking at hospital appointments because that
04:35is like the most common problem that a lot of people are facing. Because one of my teammates
04:41at the time, he has to go back to Kedah just to bring his grandparents to hospital appointments
04:47because Atuk dengan Nenek nak cucu yang tu je bawa. Yeah. And then, so if he was working
04:55here in KL, so he has to take three days off for his annual leave. He has to spend one day
05:01to go back to Kedah, another day for the hospital appointments. You know how long hospital appointments
05:06in Malaysia can get. And then the third day just to go back to KL. So that is a very common
05:13problem that a lot of people are facing. Because people are getting more and more hospital appointments
05:21and you cannot only spend like two to three hours for hospital appointments.
05:27No, I completely hear you in terms of such a vital role of caregiving, right? But you think
05:33of how many adult children are the sandwich generation where they take care of their family,
05:41maybe young family. They're dealing with careers and they're also taking care of their aging
05:45parents. So the MUN is really seeking to fill this gap of within the care economy. Yes.
05:54Where you are, you need some caregivers to, so not quite caregivers, would you consider them
05:59caregivers? Yeah, yeah. We do provide caregivers as well. We started with a medical chaperone.
06:05But when these children, yeah, medical chaperone. So when these children already have a taste of
06:10our service and they say, if you can accompany my parents outside, can you maybe help them
06:16at home too? Yeah, like maybe just be their friend at home. Just make sure they are safe.
06:23Like sometimes my parents would cook and forget to turn off the stove and things like that.
06:27And also a lot of elderly are prone to fall. So by having someone over, if an accident were
06:35to happen, somebody is there with them. They're not alone. And also correct as you, like you
06:40said just now, a sandwich generation, it is a very common problem right now for the sandwich
06:45generation. But they struggle to juggle between their commitments, commitments to their parents,
06:53to their work, and also raising their own set of children. So that is the main problem that
06:59we would like to help to lift up the burden of the sandwich generation.
07:05How do you get, so I'm sure there are safeguards or guardrails put in place for your Temanians.
07:14So first of all, you want to make sure that they themselves are protected because you know,
07:20it's, it's kind of, there is an element of coming into somebody's life, somebody's home.
07:25So you want to make sure that they are protected, that your adult children clients are protected
07:29and your elderly clients are protected. All right. What, what, how do you make sure that they are?
07:34Yeah, so we somehow do the verification and validation of the Temanians first. We make sure
07:41that they are not just random people going into our clients' houses. And also we see that whether
07:47they have the capabilities to be a caregiver to our clients. So we would make an extensive
07:55recruitment process. Firstly, our, our form, recruitment form is very long. If they ever, if they ever
08:04complete the form, I know that they are patient enough to handle the elderly. And then we also
08:09look at their experiences, whether they have taken care of their own elderly previously, and also
08:15if they have worked in a health facility previously. And also most importantly, we would do a psychometric
08:22test to know that they are fit for this job and they're not like somebody that is like emotionally
08:29volatile.
08:30Wow. So, so there needs to be kind of some characteristics that you, are there, do you find a lot of people
08:38willing to be?
08:39Yeah, fortunately we do find quite a lot, but I would say not enough.
08:42Do you think that one of the reasons is because care work, particularly in Malaysia, is often
08:49undervalued and it's quite invisible, right? We don't see and value the work that goes into care.
08:56Yeah, one of the things that I see is that people are not seeing the carrier growth in the care economy.
09:02People see that if I were a caregiver, that's all I ever will be. So that is another thing that is also
09:08limiting why people are not getting into this segment.
09:13Yeah. Can I ask you what you see as how to change that, right? When we think about how to elevate
09:22caregiving as essential and skilled work, how do you see that playing out?
09:30One, I do feel a lot of women are already equipped with the caregiving skills. Because a lot of women
09:37out there become the informal caregivers for their family members.
09:41That's right. Yeah.
09:42It often falls, the burden falls on the woman or the eldest daughter.
09:45Yeah. And without anybody giving the job to them, they would volunteer themselves to do it.
09:50They would volunteer to resign to care for their children and then for their parents.
09:55And then when the time comes, the children are all grown up and then the parents have passed,
10:01they are still even more equipped with these skills. So that's how Taman is able to somehow
10:09provide an opportunity for them. Why don't you use the set of skills that you already have
10:15to become a caregiver and an income through it? It is something that is natural to a lot of people.
10:21So why not you just try it out? And it is not just for women, actually.
10:25Are there men also interested to become Tamanians? Yes. There are a lot of males and that is something
10:30that is also needed because when elderly are more sedentary, semi-dependent, they are not able to lift
10:39themselves up. Oh, you need to physically help them. Yeah. So by having a male Tamanian, it also helps our clients.
10:45Is that the other other enterprises that you know of that provide this service? You, for me,
10:51you are the first that I have heard. Is this area of the care economy one that that is well populated? Is this well served?
11:00No. If I were talking about the care economy for the elderly sector, there's not many that is providing
11:11similar services. They are nursing services. They are medical services. So medical services. Yeah. And also
11:18a fellow partner in also the recipient of Yasan Hassan award is also Jo Makcik. So Jo Makcik actually
11:27provided a medical shopperon where they provided a car that is easily maneuvered wheelchair. Oh,
11:36wheelchair accessible. Yeah. So it has the motorized lift. No, no. They just use a ramp. A ramp. Yeah.
11:41So they use a special car called N-Box. It is a Japanese car. It's a very cute car where the
11:49the drivers can only push the elderly using a wheelchair. So there's no transferring needed.
11:54You don't have to practically lift up the elderly. So it's very helpful. And also the services is
12:00usually handled by women. They are called Adinita. So our freelancers are called Temanis. Their
12:07freelancers are called Adinita. Oh, I love that there's a gender component to this because you're
12:12empowering women through employment opportunities as well. So a lot of people are afraid of getting
12:17like maybe male drivers for their parents. So Jo Makcik also provide that female drivers for their clients.
12:24Are you, is there enough policy support for care entrepreneurs, social enterprises like yourself?
12:34Sadly, no. So when we are going into the caregiving sector,
12:39how other sectors have some sort of validation or certification. Or like a professionalization of
12:46the social work that's been done. Yeah. So for the care sector, we don't have that.
12:50That's right. But me and my couple of professionals are in the caregiving association called Kendana.
12:58So we are trying to look into that. We are talking to a lot of people from the
13:04ministry as well to create some sort of a standardization certification for caregivers.
13:09So it will be as the same standard as how a nurse is treated or a medical doctor is certified by a
13:16board. So we are working into that. Okay. So apart from that, which I think is wonderful,
13:21and I have heard about the effort that's going into professionalizing social work and care work
13:29in the care economy. But when you think about your own social enterprise, how, what are some of the
13:35challenges, the structural challenges that Thaman faces in scaling this model? Because right now,
13:43are you Klang Valley based? Yeah, we're only based in Klang Valley. Is there an opportunity to scale
13:48this model nationwide? Oh my God. In terms of, in terms of customer, I'm sure I have a customer all
13:54over Malaysia. I'm sure there are demand with migration and parents living away from their children.
13:59Yeah. And we know from statistics that maybe one in three elderly, elderly persons live alone or live
14:08with their spouse or elderly spouse. So there's a growing population. Yeah, there's a growing
14:13population and growing need for this type of services. But what really limits us is about the
14:19certification and also the training path. Okay. So in order for us to verify that this set of people are
14:31certified to be a Thamanian, we have to go out there and certify them and provide them training. And if
14:37people were to see this as a viable career opportunity, we would need to give them training.
14:43So that is some of the limitation that we have because we are only able to monitor in terms of
14:50the safety and also the whereabouts in KL only. So by having a technology that is able to support
14:59like a nationwide services, that is the help that we need through funding and also partnerships,
15:05collaborations. I don't think we're that far behind. Because if I were to say to you, so if somebody
15:11were to say to me, maybe 10 years ago, that I would get into a stranger's car at 10pm at night to go
15:21home and have them send me home, I would say, you know, you're crazy. Yeah. But with all these e-hailing
15:27rides, we now do that. We get into a stranger's car and they take us to where we need to go.
15:31So, which is I think, you know, not far from having a Thamanian come to the house and take care of our
15:38parents when we are not able to. Can you maybe share with me what this, what you may have learned from
15:48your Thamanians? I'm curious to know what they're telling you about the work that they do, the access
15:54that they have with your elderly clients. What are they telling you about loneliness, about dignity,
16:02about the emotional needs of the elderly? Have you learned anything through your work?
16:06Yeah. There's a few stories that I've heard from clients and also from Thamanians as well.
16:14One of it is that this patient is actually schizophrenic, this elderly is schizophrenic.
16:21His whole family members left him and he was left with his sister. So his sister was the one that
16:28actually reached out to Thaman for us to do some activities with his, with her brother. So that his,
16:34her brother does not just sleep and watch TV and that's just his cycle every day, you know?
16:40Some meaningful engagement. Yeah, some meaningful engagement. Like maybe, maybe you can just go send your
16:46Thamanian to do like reading or do some painting. So when we first started, the elderly was very
16:54reclusive. He doesn't want to do, he doesn't want to talk much. He was just, sometimes he would just
17:00sit back and not say anything. But over the time, when our Thamanian pujo and say nice things, regardless of
17:09what his response are, the Thamanian would just continue doing what he's doing. And then it comes to a
17:15time where the elderly would see the Thamanian at the gate and he said to his sister,
17:22my best friend, my best friend is here. Oh, yeah. Oh, that makes me so happy. Yeah. So, so it actually shows an impact on how a social
17:31companionship, regardless of how open he is to the concept, he sees very, the importance of having someone over and his sister saw it. Yeah.
17:44Now, sometimes we think that these are small tasks, right? But they can be very meaningful to someone who, at the end of the day, this is a
17:53a companion. Yeah. So, it's more than just a one-off or a task given. Yeah. And also, Mel, if I can just share,
18:05there's a few cases where when our Thamanian is over for the service, the elderly are quite sick already.
18:17So, the family just need someone over to a company. And then, the time for them to go is when the Thamanian is
18:25there. So, as a service provider, I was so worried. Like, Pakcik ni meninggal. So, I was getting ready with my
18:34with my team. Like, what are we going to say to the children, right? But the children ended up thanking us
18:41because at least the parents, the parents did not pass away alone. Alone. Yeah. At least there's somebody
18:47there. Yeah. So, it is something that is very touching. Oh my God. This is why I don't want to talk about this
18:54talk. Please. I mean, you can't be very passionate about your work. So, the message that I really want to put out
18:59there is that having someone over is also a part of caring for your parents. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you
19:06completely. And I think that what Thamanian is doing is creating not just dignified work for your
19:14Thamanians. Correct. But the having someone there as a companion to someone who may be alone is
19:22wonderful. Yeah. And I commend you and I thank you for the work that you're doing. When I, when you
19:31think about how much you want to grow or how you want this business, this and social enterprise to
19:38succeed. Yeah. What does it look like? What keeps you up at night, if I may? When you, what worries you
19:47or challenges that you are concerned in terms of growing your scale? Yeah. Okay. So, there is only so much
19:57that we can do. There's only, with the, with the limited number of Thamanians we have, there is only so much
20:03that we can help our, our clients. And I know my own, my own friends, my own families, I've heard stories
20:13of, uh, uh, bila, bila, bila Thaman nak ada dekat, uh, Kuantan for example, like, because this is a very
20:20common problem for a lot of people. So, my, my daily, daily question to myself is, when I go, when are we
20:28going to, to other states? When are we going nationwide? And you know, Mel, this is not only a problem in
20:34Malaysia. This is a problem, a common problem within the Southeast Asia. So, if I were to say that, okay,
20:42we've done it here. What is stopping you from going outside? So, that is what I keep questioning
20:49myself. When are we going out there? Okay. Um, uh, when you want to make sure that your Thamanians
20:58are equipped because I, I think about the emotional components that comes into this work, right? Um,
21:05care work is essential. There is a logistical component to it. There's a service provider
21:11component to it. Yeah. But there's also an emotional connection, emotional component to it. Um,
21:17do you need to train your Thamanians how to deal with the emotional component? Um, luckily,
21:24we don't have to. It comes naturally. It comes naturally because, uh, like I said before,
21:30this is not a job that we handed out to people. They actually come to us. And a lot of times when I
21:35tell people what Thaman is doing, uh, people will say, oh, can I be one of your Thamanians? Uh,
21:41how am I, how am I able to help? So, that is something that comes naturally. Maybe the part that we
21:46have to train on is the, the physical part. Like maybe how to, uh, better, uh, maneuver a wheelchair,
21:54for example. How do you transfer patient from, uh, bed to wheelchair? Things like that. That we can train.
22:00But the passionate part, the emotional part, thankfully we, we are able to find those people. And I would
22:07say we found each other. Oh, that's lovely. What, what advice would you have for other people who want to start
22:15social enterprises, particularly addressing some of the social issues that you talked about? Um,
22:22knowing now what you learned all those years ago. Yeah. Do you have anything to share with them? Okay. Um,
22:31by getting help from Yaisan Hassanah, right? Um, a company as small as Thaman is being recognized by a body
22:39as big as Yaisan Hassanah. So, what I love about social enterprises is that you don't have to
22:45be baked to, to give an impact. So, you don't have to, like, maybe look for, for something that is far
22:52for you to do. But it's, it can just start as small as people within your community. Yeah. I remember,
22:58um, before I started Thaman, I was doing a small home bakery business with my sister.
23:04Uh, both of us are unemployed. I remember I was, I was still, uh, pregnant at that time. So, we were doing,
23:10uh, we were baking some goods at, at home. I would say, like, okay, uh, together we can, uh,
23:17bake, like, maybe 40 boxes in a day. But if we were to have a few other housewives around us,
23:24aren't we able to, to, to get a lot more? Yeah. More orders? Because I remember one time we got an order for,
23:31uh, a wedding, uh, dessert table. So, we were practically working the whole day. So,
23:36why don't we just get some housewives, uh, within our area? Then we can find the clients for them. So,
23:43without me realizing that is a social enterprise myself. Yes. Unexpectedly. Unexpectedly, right? So, um,
23:50it doesn't have to be baked as long as you are able to give an impact. And ultimately, you just have to start.
23:57Because, no matter how small, you don't know how much that is able to help those who are, who are
24:04benefiting from your service. Yeah. Izati, it's been such a joy and pleasure to talk to you today. Thank
24:10you for coming on the show and sharing your story and your work. Yeah. Thank you for giving me the
24:15opportunity to share about my small company too. You're most welcome. Yeah. That's all we have for you on
24:20this episode of The Future is Female. I'm Melissa Idris, signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for
24:25watching and good night.
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