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- #thefutureisfemale
What does zero waste really ask of us as individuals living in a system built on convenience and disposability? On this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale Melisa Idris speaks with Khor Sue Yee, Co-founder & Director of Zero Waste Malaysia, which is a NGO which promotes zero-waste living education.
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00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Adres. Welcome to The Future is Female. This is the show where
00:16we find the extraordinary in every woman. I'm delighted to introduce my guest today,
00:20Ko Suyi, who is the co-founder and director of Zero Waste Malaysia, which is an NGO
00:27which promotes zero-waste living education. Suyi, welcome to the show. It's good of you to join me.
00:34I'm curious to know a little bit about you and how you came to start Zero Waste Malaysia. So if I
00:40understand correctly, it started out as a Facebook group, right? But now it's a full-fledged NGO. So
00:46tell me a bit about your journey to starting this. Okay, thank you Melissa and thank you so much for
00:52the invitations. So yeah, you are right. Zero Waste Malaysia, we started as a Facebook group back in
00:592016. Yeah, so it was just an idea where both of the co-founders of Zero Waste Malaysia, we were
01:09like connected on Instagram because both of us actually share about our Zero Waste journey
01:15on our social media and we both connected and we were like, alright, let's start something that is a bit
01:25more higher level. Let's start from bringing this awareness to the community level. So we started to
01:32activate some sort of community events like Zero Waste Pasamalam. So we just gather our community saying that,
01:40oh, this Saturday, we are going to SS2 Pasamalam. Let's bring our own mangkuk tingkat to tapau our food.
01:47Yeah, so just trying to activate those community awareness step by step. And where we reached to the point in
01:582018, we realised that let's make it a bit more formalised. So we officially registered as an NGO, Pertubuhan, Sisa Sifah
02:09Malaysia, in 2018. Sisa Sifah Malaysia is the formal name of the NGO.
02:18Yeah, Pertubuhan, Sisa Sifah Malaysia, bracket, Zero Waste Malaysia.
02:23Okay, so that's the official name, the registered name. You said that, I love how organic it started,
02:30how organically it started with you meeting a like-minded person and deciding to do something
02:35about it in your community. How did you personally realise that this was something that was important
02:42to you, that you wanted to make this essentially your purpose, your life's work?
02:49I think this will bring back to right after my graduations, I got this opportunity to work in Beijing, China.
02:57So that was quite a very interesting experience for me to work overseas by my own. And before I went to China,
03:09I also watched a lot of video, motivational video, because mid-life crisis, thinking of,
03:16oh my god, right after graduation, I have to enter the corporate life, it's so scary, blah blah blah.
03:20So I went on watching a lot of TED Talk video, and there was one TED Talk presentation that really
03:27sparked my mind is Lauren Singer. So she was sharing about her Zero Waste journey for more than four years.
03:36So the amount of trash that she produced can fit into a small mason jar, maybe about the cup of this,
03:43size of this cup. Yeah, so it was very fascinating for me to see that, oh, okay,
03:49I thought I was doing already very good by recycling my trash, by making sure my trash
03:56is in the trash bin. But the more that I study, the more I realise that there is no away when
04:03we throw trash away. It must end up somewhere. Yeah, so when I was getting the opportunities
04:10to work in China, I was like, okay, let me start a new lifestyle. Let me start from everything
04:16from scratch because I got the full freedom. Yeah, so I get to do most of the things by
04:22myself. And that's how I started the whole journey.
04:26What was the environment like in China? Was it easy to live a zero waste lifestyle there?
04:34I think Malaysia is much more easy. Okay, tell me, tell me about the differences you've noticed.
04:41The notice is that because in Malaysia, we have this, all of this pasapagi, pasatani. So it's
04:50actually much more flexible and people are very, very friendly and very, very accommodate
04:55to your request. Like, we use our mangkot tingkat or we use our container to just buy
05:01soya milk or coconut. They are all like very welcome to just, oh, taruk sini? Okay.
05:07Bring your own Tupperware, right? Yeah, okay. But when I was overseas, I realised that people
05:12would question like, why? Because things are quite fast-paced there. Yeah, so there are,
05:21of course, there are a lot of customers. So they will feel like, why don't you just use
05:26our own packaging? Because you can just eat and then you can just throw away. So a lot
05:31of my colleagues back then was asking, why do you need to do that? It's just, you just
05:37eat and you just throw, you don't need to wash. Then I was like, oh, I just explained to
05:43them nicely that, oh, because I realised that the dustbin outside of, outside our office
05:48is always overflowing. So I feel like, eh, maybe I can do my part. Yeah. So I think
05:54one, one of the grateful thing is I realised that a few of my colleagues actually started
06:00to bring their own container as well. I love that. I love that. It really is a movement.
06:05So you said you started this, it initially started it 2016. 2016. Yeah. So it's been about
06:12a decade now, right? Yeah, 10 years. Can I ask you what you've observed, what's changed
06:18in terms of how Malaysians talk about zero waste, the awareness for where our waste goes,
06:26but also policy-wise, are we addressing it better than we did 10 years ago?
06:32Hmm. This is a very interesting question. Okay. Okay. So before, okay, before and after. Okay.
06:43Uh, I feel, I feel definitely the awareness is increasing, but it's not as, uh, not as quick
06:51as we want it to be. Yeah. Because I think human habit or human behaviour, uh, it's just, it's
06:58just, uh, it's just difficult. Yeah. Without, uh, policy intervention, et cetera, et cetera.
07:03But I feel like, uh, the zero waste community is, uh, actually improving. Like a lot of people
07:08are getting, uh, more and more awareness and wanted to really do more. Yeah. We really wanted
07:13to, uh, take a step on how they can do beyond just segregating waste. Yeah. So there are also
07:20more and more, uh, like we would say, uh, resources or even, uh, businesses actually started
07:26to offering like refill solution as well. So for example, uh, if you go to, uh, some
07:33of the pharmacies, uh, you get to actually refill your own, uh, dishwashing detergent or even
07:38laundry detergent using your own container. So, or sometimes if you visit some of the supermarket,
07:44you also will see the vending machines that provide you opportunities to bring your own, uh,
07:49container to refill as well. Right. So I think, uh, in terms of business, uh, model, they are
07:55more and more, uh, slowly, uh, not that effective, but there are more and more businesses that
08:01we can see, including brand owners are started to look into how they can provide alternative
08:06solutions for the zero waste community. Yeah. Maybe I should zoom out a bit, see if you would
08:12allow me. I don't know how much, how accurately we understand zero waste. Maybe you can explain
08:21to us what, what is this ethos of living zero waste? And what is it that you think most members
08:29of the public misunderstand about, about what zero waste actually means? Okay. So zero waste
08:35lifestyle is basically a lifestyle where, uh, you create zero trash. Oh no, it's impossible.
08:41Okay. So when people talk about, uh, zero waste, right, they feel very stressed about the word,
08:48the term zero zero. Yeah. Yeah. It's an absolute, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, we would
08:53like to always emphasize that zero waste is, it's a goal. There's no one in this world can reach
09:01zero, zero, zero, zero waste. Okay. It's a goal. It's a goal. Yeah. So it's a goal. So it's about a
09:07lifestyle on how we can rethink our consumption habits, how we can actually, uh, focus us more on if refuse,
09:16reduce, reuse, recycle, rot, because these are the five R principles that we, uh, advocate the most
09:23because, uh, back in primary or secondary school time, we learned about the three R's. Yeah. Reduce,
09:30reuse, recycle. But for zero waste Malaysia, we like to advocate, uh, these five R principles that
09:37actually, uh, presented by B. Johnson, who is the author of Zero Waste Home. So we focus more on, uh, waste
09:44prevention. Okay. So could you, could you just say again the five R's again? The first R is refuse.
09:49So basically is to refuse what you do not need. Or we could say we, uh, can we refuse single use
09:57plastics? Plastics. Yeah. Like single use plastic straw, for example. Yeah. And second R is reduce,
10:03to reduce our consumption habit, uh, to reduce what we cut, what we, uh, what we cannot, uh, reuse. We, uh,
10:11what, uh, to reduce, reduce our consumption. Yeah. So what we can't refuse, we should reduce.
10:17Reduce. Okay. Good. Yeah. So what we can refuse, we choose to reduce. And reuse is to reuse whatever
10:23we already have. So for example, um, uh, if let's say we, we, we wanted to actually bring our own, uh,
10:32reusable water bottle, but maybe check at home first, do we already have a reusable water bottle, uh,
10:38before we buy something new. Buy a new one. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Because buying something new,
10:43it means that, uh, the new, uh, that it is also required new resources as well. Yeah. So this is,
10:49uh, the third R we use. Then the fourth R is, uh, recycle. So recycle is applicable. Uh, we encourage
10:56recycle, uh, uh, that things that you cannot refuse, reduce or reuse. Yeah. So recycle, um,
11:04uh, unfortunately, unfortunately, as you is Malaysia, we encourage all of our community
11:12to recycle less. Hmm. I know this is a fraud topic because I think recycling has, uh, nuances
11:20to recycling. But before we get into recycling, because I think we spent some time on that,
11:24what was the fifth R again, Sui? The fifth R is rot. Yes. So rot means, uh, to compose our organic waste.
11:31Yeah. All right. Okay. So those are the five R's. Now let's talk about recycling because I think the
11:37first three are great, um, in terms of how we can, um, incorporate zero waste living into our current
11:45lives. But let's talk about recycling because I think, um, the idea of recycling is a lot more nuanced.
11:52There's a, there are many commonplace plastics that cannot be recycled. So talk to me about recycling.
12:00All right. Uh, maybe also to provide a little bit more context is, uh, back in 2022, we actually, uh,
12:10conducted a survey. So we conducted a survey to about 7,600 plus survey respondents. So we collect, uh,
12:21their awareness about recycling. We wanted to learn about how Malaysia citizen, uh, actually feel about
12:28recycling and, uh, are they actually, uh, educated enough to know about recyclability of items. Right.
12:36Yeah. So, uh, among all of these numbers, right, they are actually more, uh, more than 50% of them
12:43has the misconception about recyclability of certain items. So which referring to like, uh, maybe people
12:50like me, uh, I'm not sure about if this item is recyclable or not. Yeah. I feel the same way because
12:57there are times when I'm not sure which parts of plastics can be recycled. And even sometimes to
13:05the basics, I'm holding something which I want to throw into the different bins, but I'm not sure
13:10which bin it goes to because maybe the cap is plastic and then the, the cup is paper. Which one
13:17do I talk to me about that? Uh, what did you find from that survey? Yeah. So from, from the survey,
13:22there are more than 50% of the survey respondents actually answer, answer the recyclability of the
13:27products incorrectly. So for example, uh, one of the common, uh, misconceptions that we mentioned just
13:34now is coffee paper cup. Yeah. So coffee paper cup, I always like to use the example, uh, what if
13:40you put a newspaper inside a bucket of water, it will become, uh, like very smudgy, right? Yeah. But
13:48what if you put a coffee paper cup in the bucket of water? It's, it's not going to smudge because it
13:53has a layer of plastic. Yeah. So that makes it, uh, not recyclable. So that makes it, uh, we have to, uh,
14:01put it in the general bin. Oh yeah. At least for Malaysia context. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So,
14:07uh, so there are a lot of misconception about recyclability and also why we encourage to recycle
14:13less is also because there are more and more products that actually made, uh, in mixed, uh,
14:19material packaging. Yeah. And also when we talk about global data, right? Global plastic recycling rate
14:25is only 9%. So, which means when we try to segregate our recyclables, even though we recycle it very
14:33nicely, but maybe it doesn't mean it doesn't indicate the real actual recycling rate. Yeah. So of course we,
14:42when we encourage recycle less, right? It doesn't mean that we, we are, we are not asking you to
14:46segregate at all. I was just going to ask you, is it a controversial position for, uh, a sustainable
14:53living, um, movement to say recycle less? We still have to recycle, but we recycle less. Recycle less
15:01means are we able to practice refuse, reduce, reuse first? Yeah. Then the last resort is recycle. And
15:07when we want to recycle, we need to do it right. So how we can do it right as a consumer is we need to
15:12make sure that, eh, can we make sure our recyclables, uh, including like recyclable plastic, aluminium,
15:20paper, they are all clean and dry. Yeah. So when we talk about, uh, plastic takeaway container,
15:25for instance, because in Malaysia, we are very grateful that we are food nation, right? So we have
15:31nasi lemak, roti canai, all the, uh, the, the curry things. But when it comes to, uh, package in a
15:37container, right? The container tends to be very oily afterwards. Yeah. So it's very important
15:42for us to make sure our recyclables are clean and dry. Ah, because we should wash it first. Yes,
15:48because or else it will contaminate the rest of the recyclables in the bin. Yeah. So what would
15:55be the consequences is, uh, it doesn't mean that it's not recyclable at all, but it actually means
16:02that more effort from the downstream management. So for example, uh, when we talk about our waste worker,
16:09the, what are we expecting them to do? Yeah. Are we, are we expecting them to clean and dry? Because
16:17when they receive, it's a full of contaminated recyclables, suppose it can bring, uh, profit,
16:26a cost, uh, profit for them, but because of the contamination, it brings down the profit.
16:31Yeah. Yeah. So usually a lot of waste workers or our downstream management or our collectors,
16:37they don't really like contaminated consumer, uh, recyclable, uh, materials. Yeah. So that's why
16:44as a consumer, as a conscious consumer, what we can do and what we need to do it right is to make
16:49sure our recyclables are clean and dry. That's such an important point to make because I think
16:55sometimes myself included when I purchase food in takeaway containers, right? I think, ah, this is
17:01recyclable. So even after I finish eating, I throw it away without washing, I recycle it without washing.
17:07I think, oh, it's, I've done my bit for the environment. When in actuality, it's not enough.
17:16It's not good enough. It doesn't actually help because it's dirty. It's contaminated. I haven't
17:22actually done what I need to do to make it recyclable. Um, can I ask you, so you, what you think,
17:29um, in terms of policy, right, we'll talk about, um, human behaviour in a bit, but in Malaysia,
17:35are there policies that you think undermine our efforts to live towards zero waste,
17:44the reduction efforts in Malaysia? Are there ways that we could be doing better to maybe reduce,
17:52uh, refuse, reduce, reuse? Uh, yeah, actually in Malaysia, we do have, uh, uh, a few roadmaps that
17:59we referring to plastic as well. Yeah. Such as, uh, plastic sustainability roadmap. And also recently,
18:06this year, our minister also have this new anti-littering law as well, uh, to enforce, like, if let's say,
18:14you litter, uh, then you will need to, uh, most probably you'll get fined, plus you will need to
18:21contribute community services for around 12 hours. You should go around and pick up more later.
18:28Okay. I see. Yeah. So if you, if you get caught, uh, litter, then you will, you will have that punishment.
18:33What about things that don't just focus on human behaviour? I'm wondering, because a lot of the
18:38onus is on the consumer, but what about the producers? Surely we could, um, intervene,
18:45or the government could intervene or put policies in place where it shifts the responsibility to
18:50the producer that uses plastics in such a way. Yeah. I think this is a very good point, right?
18:56So when it comes to the previous, uh, plastic sustainability roadmap, uh, one of the interventions
19:02is the EPR, which refers to extended producer responsibility. Yeah. So this is something that,
19:10uh, uh, Malaysia has been doing it voluntarily. Okay. So of course, uh, what we hope is to make
19:17it mandatory. So what this means is that, uh, each of the producers would need to take responsibility
19:24on the, uh, lifecycle of their, uh, uh, their, their, their items or even their packaging and also take
19:30responsibility of what's after, uh, uh, the, the packaging to make sure that the collection is
19:36there. Yeah. So I think that also will, uh, indirectly putting pressures on making sure that
19:42when as a producer or as a brand owner, how can we make sure our product, including our product
19:48packaging, when we design it, how do we design in a way that it's easily, uh, recyclable? It's also, uh,
19:56uh, not introducing like mixed material, et cetera, et cetera. But of course, ultimately it's something
20:03what we hope to see in the future is, uh, also, uh, are we able to also look into refill and reuse model
20:10as well? Oh, yes. I've seen that around. Is that been taken up a lot by people? Uh, it's not that a lot,
20:17but we do see it increasing, increasing. Yeah. In your work, so when you go out and you educate
20:24people about making the right choices in their lives, um, around waste and consumption,
20:32how do you, I'm sure you've heard people say, well, you know, the problem is so big.
20:37What difference would what I do, um, make to the larger problem? And that brings me to the
20:43example you use about your colleagues going, eh, why would you bring your own Tupperware?
20:48It's the convenience side of human behaviour. We want the convenience, right? How do you talk to
20:54people? What do you say to people when they say, the problem is so big, I'm just one person and I'm
21:00unlikely to make a difference? I think, uh, that is one of the purpose why we started Zero Waste Malaysia,
21:07because, uh, when, when I was doing, uh, doing it alone last time, uh, I felt lonely as well. So that's
21:16also one of the reasons why I share my journey on Instagram, on social media, and that's how I
21:21connected with like-minded people and we form a community and we encourage and motivate each other.
21:27So when it comes to, uh, when, uh, like for example, our participants or even the public when asking that,
21:35I don't think, I don't think like one person can do a lot of things, but, uh, we will actually share
21:40with them that there are more and more people actually doing this together. So the most important
21:45part is, uh, we can't change other persons, but what we can change is we can lead by an example. So
21:52slowly you are able to, we are able to inspire the people around us. So one of the example that I
21:58felt very, uh, grateful about, uh, because I just visited, uh, one of our friends a few days ago. So, uh,
22:06in back few years back, Zero Waste Malaysia actually organized a online campaign. So it's called 30
22:14Day Zero Waste Challenge. Yeah. So 30 Day Zero Waste Challenge campaign is all about, uh, encourage the
22:19communities to come and just try, just try one month of living a Zero Waste lifestyle. So every day
22:26throughout this 30 days, you will receive a mission. So for example, day one is about, uh, bring our own
22:32bottle. Day two is about, oh, can you try to bring, uh, your own mangkut tingkat to tapau your food?
22:38Yeah. So day to day, uh, daily, you will have a daily mission. So one of the participants actually
22:43participated this 30 Day Zero Waste Challenge, and now she's actually a, uh, a business owner of a
22:50Zero Waste, uh, business. Yeah. So she run a, a mobile van and she drive to different neighborhoods
22:57to provide a refillable services. For example, oh, this Taman SJ, blah, blah, blah. They want to engage
23:05this van to go to their neighborhood, uh, and then they will go. And then all of the neighborhood
23:10communities will come with their own containers and to tapau their, uh, refillable washing
23:15detergents, laundry detergents. That's such impact. She's making a difference. Yeah.
23:21That's really encouraging. I can imagine that maybe in the, um, sustainable sustainability advocacy
23:28space, sometimes it's, it can be burnout is real because you don't really see, um, change happening
23:35all that quickly. It's very incremental, but stories like these are so important. Yeah.
23:40So it's like a few days ago, I visited her businesses at one of the Taman and I keep
23:46seeing people like coming with their own container and together with her, there's another event that
23:52actually provide knife sharpening services. Yeah. So nowadays it's so hard, right? Like when,
23:58when things get very easy, for example, disposable, right? You just buy a new one.
24:03Yes. Like, like you go to the nearest, uh, uh, uh, like convenience store to buy it. Yeah. But I
24:09actually seeing like family bringing 15 knife to Sharpen. Yeah. And bringing their own like
24:15container just to refill. It's, it's very encouraging. I really love that. Um, for our audience today,
24:22Suyi, can I ask you what everyday behaviors do you think matter the most that you think we can do,
24:30um, that have impact that we don't realize? I think, uh, the most easiest one is the, uh, to really look
24:39into maybe spend five seconds to go to our trash bin to see what is, what are we producing.
24:47Ah, because from there, you know, your behavior. Oh, so look at our, our, our rubbish bin at home. Yes.
24:54And see what we're throwing away. Yeah. And, and just try to, uh, review, do a review like, okay,
25:01this tissue paper, what did I use for it? Oh, because I, after I finished my lunch, I use tissue paper.
25:06Eh, actually, since I'm at home, maybe I can just use water. Yeah. Ah, so try to study, study what we
25:14have been producing. Our own habits. Yes. Correct. Because everyone will have different, uh, behavior
25:20and different, uh, case by case. Yeah. So try to examine your trash bin. Try to be friend with your
25:27trash bin. What do we actually show inside? What do we actually contribute? And next time, what could we,
25:33uh, what could we do better to avoid that thing ended up in the trash bin? That is such great advice, Sue.
25:40Thank you so much. And thank you for educating us a little bit about this. I feel very encouraged to go
25:45back and look at my rubbish bin. Thank you so much. Hope that's helpful. Thank you for your time. That's all
25:51the time we have for you on this episode of The Futures Female. I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
25:56Thank you so much for watching and good night. Thank you.
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