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- #thefutureisfemale
20th June is World Refugee Day, which is dedicated to honoring the courage and resilience of people who have been forced to flee their home countries due to conflict or persecution. But often when we talk about refugees, we talk in terms of policy frameworks and public sentiment, far less often do we hear about their aspirations and talents. On this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale Melisa Idris speaks with Lim Yuet Kim, Co-Founder & CEO of PichaEats, which is a social enterprise that empowers refugees in Malaysia to generate income as food entrepreneurs.
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00:10hello and good evening i'm melissa idris welcome to the future is female this is the show where
00:16we find the extraordinary in every woman now 20th june is world refugee day which is a day
00:21dedicated to honoring the courage and resilience of people who have been forced to flee their homes
00:27due to conflict or persecution now i found that whenever we talk about refugees more often than
00:33not we talk about them in terms of policy framework and public sentiment about them far less often do
00:40we hear about their aspirations about their talents and their contributions which is why i'm delighted
00:46to introduce my guest today lim yuat kim who is co-founder and ceo of picture eats which is a
00:54social enterprise that empowers refugees in malaysia to generate income as food entrepreneurs
01:00kim welcome to the show thank you so much for joining me thank you so much for having me shall
01:04we start with uh you telling us a little bit about picture eats um i will confess that i am
01:10a long
01:11time customer of picture i remember when it was called the picture project yes okay there we go so
01:17let's start there yeah so we kind of rebranded to picture eats in 2019 but our story started in 2016
01:23or more so 2013 because myself and my two other co-founders suzanne and suilin were volunteering in a
01:31refugee learning center and we realized kids were dropping out of education at that point i was a
01:38musician before this and i was teaching music but it's quite heartbreaking to see you know students
01:44like them not having that um privilege or uh you know opportunity to further their education
01:53and so then we went and dig do a bit of digging and we realized that in malaysia uh at
01:59that point
01:59of time uh we are you know we are not part of the 19 uh i think 51 un refugee
02:05signatory and that means
02:07refugees are not allowed to work uh that means uh refugee kids are not allowed to go for formal
02:12education and healthcare is always a compromisation as well um and then we thought okay if this happens
02:19what can we do uh to make sure things are very sustainable for both ends and so we thought okay
02:25why not we think about a business model and we realized in the community a lot of them can actually
02:30cook then why not have them prepare the food and we deal with the logistics and operations to deliver
02:35those food to customers so a very small idea you know we worked it out and tested out in the
02:41university
02:41with our friends and forcing them to like please you know like get get the food from us and
02:47then we realized okay how to do better how to improve our packaging and everything and from there
02:53it became a for-profit business that we're doing today we call it a social enterprise with a driven
02:59uh driven by a social cause and yeah that's where picture eats is okay i am i want to learn
03:06more
03:06about what picture it is today versus so it's 10 years now i mean that's that's amazing in our 11th
03:13year
03:1311th year fantastic so but before that i i want to learn more about you and your co-founders so
03:19you
03:19said you were volunteering at a refugee learning yes um how did you first encounter refugee
03:25communities not a lot of people yeah are exposed to that or even know a refugee in their lives how
03:32did you come to work with them yeah i know them through my co-founder suzanne she was the courageous
03:38one she was the one who like who was like okay i have a project there's a volunteering opportunity
03:45and she has a project and an idea to do so is to visit a refugee learning center at a
03:50point of time
03:51and uh she went there she saw the needs and then she came back to the university uh to her
03:56friends
03:57and was like uh we need to do more and so they thought about something uh to go there and
04:04teach them
04:05weekly uh during their semester break oh sorry during their semester right yeah so uh from from from
04:12a teaching project then they we started doing more and more other fundraisings and and awareness and
04:19that's how we knew what i love about that story is that you decided to act on it so i
04:26think a lot of
04:26people maybe read or are aware and sympathize and empathize but don't do anything about it so when you
04:34said do more it's really heartwarming for me um so now let's talk about food
04:41so malaysia's favorite topic malaysia's favorite topic which is why i think you've managed to survive
04:4811 years right um how what what made you believe that food would be the vehicle for this type of
04:57inclusion for that it has managed to sustain itself economically or financially yeah for for more
05:03benefit first of all uh everyone in malaysia uh loves food and i think uh malaysia has become this
05:13melting pot of culture you know thailand korea japanese and all this like different even middle eastern
05:21today right like all this food that we we are so open to it to learn about the culture to
05:27learn about
05:28the tradition and the recipes uh of this food i think it is it it became a vehicle to speak
05:35to
05:35people to raise awareness about the people that is cooking behind i think that has given us a lot of
05:43opportunity to be at a dining table to talk about the refugee issue to talk about what we do and
05:50how
05:51everyone can also be that vehicle of change but the food was the the thing to to start to bring
05:57everyone together right you start somewhere and food is something we all have in common yes um who
06:03are the refugee chefs that you work with well we started off with a burmese chef and then after that
06:10we went into the homes of a syrian the home of a palestinian the home of an afghan iraqi and
06:17so we're
06:17pretty much like traveling the world without going out of malaysia yeah and and they offer their
06:23national cuisine yes as part of it yes and essentially you are the person who facilitates
06:29yes ordering and delivery and the logistics exactly they cook themselves the recipe is theirs the recipes
06:35are mostly yes uh but we have to also uh localize it a bit example like our malaysians love their
06:42sauces love uh they cannot we we cannot eat dry food and and all those things and uh so we
06:49had to
06:49localize a bit but then you you with us you get to taste like the food of a palestinian you
06:55know
06:55the makluba like you had yeah i was just talking about how i ordered the makluba pariah yeah like
07:03um the hummus and falafels from uh syrian and you could also learn about bolanis and mantus from an afghan
07:11you know so we've learned so much of this food since we started 10 years ago what were the some
07:17of the
07:17assumptions when you first started um and it was just an idea and you're testing it out yeah what
07:23were some of the assumptions that you had about the work that has turned out to be quite different
07:31um i think everyone who starts a business thought that you know bosses are are to just shake their legs
07:38and wait for money to come in but no you're going to be part of the operations you're going to
07:44be part
07:44of selling it to people you're going to be part of packing the food delivering the food you're you're
07:50end to end when you start um and i think it is very tough in the first few years but
07:57it is also tougher
07:58to maintain the business when you uh start up right so uh a lot of people always thought that okay
08:05i'm
08:05going to start a business i'm going to raise enough of money and i'm going to exit right and then
08:11that's
08:11where i'm going to earn my money i'm not all businesses are like this and especially a food
08:16and beverage business is harder yeah i think i think sometimes we underestimate the the the operations
08:23that go into i see f&b business and i think that's also another layer for you because you you
08:29you are for
08:30profit but you're also a social enterprise so impact must be a big consideration how do you how do you
08:37define that the financial success and sustainability is one thing but you also want to look at the
08:44impact that you are creating um the meaningful outcomes of your of your work yeah how do you
08:50measure it and has it changed from what you thought it was going to be it has changed like tremendously
08:56when we started off we worked with you know chefs from home and after that when we now we're still
09:02working with chefs from home but today we also work with refugee teens because we realized that if we
09:09want to really make a change we should start them from young too yeah and we realized there's so much
09:14potential in them that can drive the change that we want to see and so we started training refugee teens
09:21in different aspects in content creating in laptop skills in digital uh you know digital communications
09:29and all these things how they how they manage the operations it's it's amazing to see their resilience
09:35and will to do this yes there are a lot of work to go into training uh training them and
09:40but you when
09:41you see them blossom from uh i've always told one one boy that you don't belong in the storeroom stop
09:49staying in the storeroom you can belong at the desk you can work on laptop you just need training and
09:55someone to believe in you and we will be that person to believe in you but we're only doing
10:00fifty percent and the rest of the fifty percent has to come from you and so he he tried and
10:04in two
10:05years time he he's able to manage quite a fair bit on the laptop skill uh laptop but it's going
10:12to take
10:12some time but someone has to believe in them you know yeah i love that story um has it changed
10:19your
10:19perspective about what resilience really is and also you know there are i think um there's also
10:28the people behind the perception right there's often when we think about refugees we think about
10:34them as a a group not as individuals and we think of them as monolithic without the diversity of
10:40nationalities and backgrounds and heritage yeah but they are just like as as diverse as they come yeah
10:48what do you think malaysians most misunderstand about refugee communities i think first of all
10:54malaysians already misunderstand that we have a refugee camp right we don't have a refugee camp it existed
11:00when the vietnamese was were here 70s yeah but no more right second um our government and unhcr unhcr provides
11:09some form of um you know aid but we don't exactly provide refugees any financial aid or any form of
11:17aid that um you know help them in any way so i think that's that's the second misunderstanding the
11:23third misunderstanding um is that we think that refugee label you know is a race so everyone is labeled as
11:32refugee but no that like you say there are people different races and different people from different
11:38countries and and and practicing different culture coming from that that that that who are refugees
11:45because they have no choice right i think one big big big misunderstanding is people thinking that
11:51they're here for economic reasons but no they're here because the the country is in war is in conflict
11:59nobody wants them at some point and and they have to you know fend for their lives and nobody wants
12:06to
12:06leave their home nobody if if they are not forced to so that is the largest misunderstanding that a lot
12:12of
12:12people are refugees are here for economic reasons and you said also a bit earlier that they are not
12:18allowed to work yes yeah they don't get any financial aid or benefit from the state yeah they don't have
12:23access to education or healthcare and they're not allowed to work yes which is why pitchers so important
12:29yeah uh social enterprises like which is important which allows an avenue for some kind of income
12:35creation right yeah yeah yeah i mean it is is something better than nothing yeah absolutely have you
12:41seen the ways in which the inability to work has impacted or shaped a refugee family's um life for sure
12:49i've met with an afghan uh man just last two months ago and i went he invited me to his
12:58home i went to his
12:59home uh he wanted to prepare a meal but more so i i didn't know what was his goal in
13:04the beginning but
13:05after that i just realized he just needed someone to talk to because he couldn't he couldn't work more
13:12than what he is doing right now he's just he's doing part-time job he's trying to uh gain any
13:18form of
13:19income for for the family and he told me that it really takes away his dignity a lot and i
13:26can see a very
13:27very depressed guy who doesn't even know what tomorrow holds and he doesn't even know if you could
13:34provide or make sure that his family or his kids have a future and i think that takes a lot
13:40of
13:41takes takes away a lot of dignity uh from them so um when i can see when when a family
13:49gets to earn
13:51and and and and income it changes the vibe and ambience in the homes uh because i see them you
13:59know change after two to three years being with us but those that we can't uh help or assist it's
14:06it's just you can see a very depressing um human in front of you yeah what about the women do
14:15you do
14:15you see um what have refugee women with all their resilience taught you about the meaning of strength
14:23they're amazing you know we have like palestinian women and afghan women they want to fend for
14:30themselves especially those with like with a lot of kids and and they want to make sure that every one
14:36of them receive any form of education because they don't want them to end up the way that where they
14:42are
14:43right now right um so they will push they will they they will learn they are very very willing to
14:49learn
14:49very uh adaptable as well and they know that if if they are not the one fending or fighting for
14:56it
14:56no one no one is going to fight for them yeah so uh i've learned so much from the women
15:02that i've worked
15:03with uh i've i've known uh chef rania from from syria chef dahlia from palestine and all these people
15:09chef rosa from afghan afghanistan and all these people who have shown me how resilience is like
15:15in the past 10 years i have went through multiple breakdowns and multiple the valleys myself but when
15:21i think about these women who are not even giving up if when they don't even have the right identity
15:27or like the the privileges but they're not giving up i shouldn't give up so easily then and and now
15:34that
15:34the the the work now picture is you know more than a decade old and gone through the pandemic and
15:41lockdown are you confident that this this model is sustainable i mean were there moments where you
15:48thought oh maybe i'm not sure if this this model might work out for sure i i we've gone through
15:54so
15:54many phases where we thought maybe it's not working out even right now we're thinking about it every
15:59single day right like there's many ways to sustainability there's financial sustainability
16:04energy team uh you know operational sustainability and every single phase there's going to be
16:12something yeah right and and right now we're probably at uh you know cash cash flow or some some some
16:21issues going on right and i think what's most important as an entrepreneur is not to i'll be persistent
16:27about it uh not to give up uh or some people will say know when to give up but there's
16:33no right or
16:33wrong uh in this it's just um when there's a problem then you you you source all your ways to
16:40make sure
16:41that it's overcome but you also need to know when to call call it off okay can i ask you
16:47kim whether
16:48how much does public sentiment play a public sentiment about refugees or towards refugees play into the
16:56sustainability or the viability of your of your business of picture each um we've seen recent weeks
17:01that there has been a spike in hate speech and and renewed calls particularly around rohingya refugees
17:09i'm wondering what you thought about that what was your response when you saw that kind of
17:16hateful narratives gaining traction online well i i've just posted a video about it on my own
17:23uh instagram and i i felt very disheartened with how we comment about another human being um as i said
17:33refugees are just labeled right and and people always think like i don't don't put rohingya or
17:41palestine or or afghan you know like don't don't talk about like the different nationalities talk
17:48about how refugees are just human right and it's very disheartening to see how malaysians talk about
17:55another human being instead it's not about them you know rohingya it's not about palestinian and and
18:02where they come from and how they grow up it's just how we talk about humans like you and me
18:07like i see you
18:09and i i i i have all these judgmental um thoughts about you immediately and why is that so why
18:19why is
18:19that so right and i think a lot of people also need to learn how um refugees became refugees and
18:29the
18:29history and the the amount of years that they are not given certain privileges or rights that they're
18:38supposed to have and to become or or grow up to who they are today many people are actually amazing
18:47even from the rohingya community i've met i've met people who are truly amazing and yes they have
18:54resettled to other places and they've gone to do many amazing things right i've i've known a a guy
19:01core prince i think a lot of them know him i have met prince before yes he's now modeling in
19:08us oh
19:08that's amazing good for him right and he speaks very very well english and i've known some of his
19:16family members and and friends as well who who is amazing people very great heart but if we only if
19:24choose to see them as individuals that we can overcome this or else yeah we'll just put them in
19:31one group and we'll think like ah they are like this you think it's coming from a place of um
19:38not
19:38having enough information the ignorance of we have we have a lot of information okay if you go online
19:45chat gpt it's available it's available like are we being ignorant i think that's the question yes do you
19:53have you have you seen attitudes or public attitudes change over the past years past decade or so
19:59towards refugees i would say half half likes when we started of course a lot of people don't know who
20:05refugees are and after we came in and of course with other ngos raising awareness i think this the the
20:12understanding of who they are is there but whether do we accept them that's still a long way to go
20:19so i i think by i'm not sure me and my co-founder will always say in our lifetime uh
20:25hopefully we can
20:26still see people start accepting who refugees are why they're here and you know accepting they're just
20:32like you and me who wants a who wants a better future who wants to dream yeah a lot of
20:38them they
20:39don't dare to even dream i've worked with refugee teens who who would say what's the point of dreaming because
20:45tomorrow it'll be the same i i won't have the rights to work anyway so why should i work hard
20:52towards
20:52that that's heartbreaking yes so we need we need to do something about it yeah definitely hope we can
21:01so in the last minutes uh that we have i want to ask you what we can expect next from
21:06picture i noticed
21:08that there had the the business has grown to now include a catering element of it which is wonderful
21:14i've seen you cater some events yeah and i have to say it's delicious um what what do you see
21:20as
21:20maybe the next chapter for picture and yourself uh we've been doing this for 10 years uh we've been
21:27doing you know bento boxes meal uh catering to weddings and yeah events and functions and conferences
21:35i think the most exciting one is catering to weddings because uh today a lot of people are
21:41very aware about esg so they want their weddings to be like esg focus or like sustainability focus and
21:48i remember we were catering to one couple who had like vegetables on on the on on the table so
21:56that
21:56guests can take them back home instead of decos instead of the door gifts yeah instead of decos that
22:02you would throw them after that right so it was people a lot of people are thinking about
22:06sustainable uh ways to to do events and all so i i think that is the next phase of what
22:13we are
22:13doing even not just talking about uh working or partnering with refugees but more so how can we
22:20be sustainable in this supply chain as well definitely well if you've got an event coming up a wedding
22:27coming up why not make it one that has a meaningful and impactful positively thank you so much for
22:33being with me thank you so much i've had such a pleasure talking to you thanks you too that's all
22:38the time we have for you on this episode of the future is female i'm melissa idris signing
22:42out for the evening thank you so much for watching and good night
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