- 2 months ago
- #thefutureisfemale
What can fishermen and other local communities can teach researchers about the ecosystems they live and work in? On this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale, Melisa Idris speaks with Dr Serina Rahman, an environmental anthropologist and lecturer at the National University of Singapore, about the richness of local knowledge and why it is so often overlooked by science and institutions.
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NewsTranscript
00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to The Future is Female.
00:14This is the show where we find the extraordinary in every woman.
00:18And I am very delighted to introduce my guest today, conservationist and advocate for coastal
00:22communities, Dr. Serena Rahman, who is a lecturer and researcher in environmental anthropology
00:30and ethnography at National University of Singapore. Welcome to the show. It's good
00:35of you to join me. We've had a couple of interviews but always online so I'm delighted to be able
00:40to spend some time speaking to you in person. I've been following your work for a while now
00:44and you've been working with rural fishing communities for many years, for about 18 years
00:50or so. So maybe to begin our conversation, you can tell us about the work that you do
00:54at NUS. And I want to take you back 18 years to when you first started working with this
01:00community. Talk to me a little bit about what you initially wanted to study when you began
01:06working with them. To be honest, when I went, I was bumming. And so I just went there to teach
01:14children about seagrass and mangroves, right? So that was the thing I did. I was with the
01:19Malaysian Nature Society. I was going from Teoman to Perhentian to Redang, I can't remember
01:25now, and teaching local communities about how valuable the habitats were because a lot
01:31of people don't realise how important it is to everybody else, right? So I stumbled on
01:37this place. I was actually invited to go there to speak to the community and I heard about the
01:41seagrass area. And so I went there in 2008. I saw the seagrass and I was like, whoa, seagrass
01:47was so beautiful. Actually, I went in 2007 to see the grass. And you know, my name is
01:52Serena. So Serena is similar to the family name for dugongs, sirenia. Dugongs eat seagrass.
02:00And so because of my size, my friends always say that dugong found her home. I fell in love
02:04with the seagrass.
02:05So there was an affinity.
02:06Yeah. So like the grass is just, I cannot, like, you know, my friends are like, shut up
02:11about the grass. But really, it is so beautiful to be out there on the seagrass.
02:16So you went out there to first study seagrass?
02:19No, I was invited to speak to the community. But you know, there was also a seagrass trip.
02:24And MNS was running, we had a KPA, Club Pecinta Alam. Yeah, so we had the National Club Pecinta
02:32Alam camp in the space. And so I was asked to come down because I think at the time I
02:36was head of marine group or something. This is way back in history, man. And then, so we
02:41had this thing working with MNS Education. They had like all the KPA students come.
02:46So I was handling the seagrass part. So we take kids out, we talk about the grass, we
02:50talk about the marine stuff. And I'm sorry, but seagrass is just so beautiful.
02:56Can you tell, I may just interrupt you and take you off tangent a little bit. Let's talk
03:00a little bit about seagrass. Why, and you clearly have a particular affinity to it. Talk
03:07to me about why we should care about seagrass. What is it? Explain what it is.
03:11Tell me this to us and how it is part of the ecosystem.
03:13Right. So seagrass is a habitat that's always overlooked because essentially it's grass
03:17that lives at sea, right? So nobody cares. Everybody's obsessed with corals, but to be
03:21blunt, corals are dying because it's bleaching, it's too hot, they can't survive. Seagrass
03:26is a lot more resilient. But seagrass is also really important for things like carbon sequestration,
03:31which is what everybody's up in the air about. It garners many more times the carbon
03:37than a tropical rainforest, right? So, I mean, cough medicine, but I think it's about 30
03:43over times that it can sequester carbon because it traps the carbon within the seagrass net
03:51of roots as well as the soil. So it's really important in that sense, but it is also important
03:57for the habitat that it creates, right? So baby fish are there. Species lay their eggs there.
04:03Fishermen for artisanal fisheries to survive. These seagrass habitats need to be there.
04:09If we're thinking just about human benefits, seagrass will reduce the impact of big waves
04:14or tsunamis. So in a nutshell, it is very important to all of us.
04:19Where does seagrass grow?
04:21At sea?
04:22But where? Actually, it's not the entire bottom of the sea is stuffed with seagrass.
04:28So in Australia, where the water is really clear, they have seagrass up to 40 metres.
04:33For us, it's, I mean, our water is like te tarik lah, but, you know, ours is shallower.
04:39But we do have seagrass, for the fishermen to tell me, it goes down to about 12 metres.
04:43Do you mind you can get it? 16 Siputengi Islands, 20. We'll see seagrass as long as the light
04:49can come to it.
04:50And you say it's beautiful.
04:51It is amazing. There's so much weird stuff in there. I mean, look, where we are, I'm
04:57in the Tabrao Strait, Johor Strait. So you have development on the Singapore side. You
05:01have ports and other development on our side. But in the seagrass, you have things that I
05:07thought only existed in Ambon. I mean, I'd go all the way to Indonesia to look for sea
05:12moss. It's this fish that's like a moss. Anyway, we have it in our waters. We have, I've done
05:19work with a fisherman. So we've documented 21 endangered species in our waterway. And
05:25this is a waterway that is blocked by the causeway. So it's essentially only half of
05:29a waterway. But in our side, 21 endangered species.
05:33Wow.
05:34And that's on top of the fishery species. A friend of mine at UMT just came out with a
05:38book on just general fish species. I forgot to check how many species are in there, but
05:43it's huge. And he discovered so many new species. And they were a bunch of scientists with
05:48the collaboration. So there were Japanese scientists as well. They discovered so many
05:53new species that were not documented there. I mean, I don't do that sort of work. But
05:57I document what I do fish landing surveys. So we see what fish comes up. And sometimes
06:02scientists come, they come at once. And I'm there every day, right? So I have all this
06:06fish data. And so it's amazing what we have in there.
06:10Has it changed from 2008? Tell me about that.
06:15Because development has increased tremendously. And there's so many developments. Everybody
06:19always fixates on Forest City because of all of the drama. But we have, you know, we have
06:24reclamation forest, big oil and gas storage. We've got property developments all along the
06:29street, like Sunway, Dangah, Sumayu. All of that affects it because it's a fluid waterway.
06:35So anything that's happening in one part will affect the rest. Everything that's happening
06:39in Sungai Pulai, all of the development in there, at the port, for example, that affects
06:44it. And of course, the Singapore side, Singapore doesn't stop building. So all of that affects
06:50it. What scientists and people usually fixate on is the intertidal seagrass meadow. So this
06:55is the one which, at the lowest tides, you walk out there and you can see the grass. Because
07:01it's kind of on a sandbank and then the water goes down. What they build, they build around
07:07this because they can see it. And now they're like, oh, we want to save the seagrass, right?
07:11So all the plans that they have for this area is to save this seagrass. What people don't
07:17realise is that there's a whole bunch of subtitle seagrass underneath that you'll never see because
07:23the water is never going to go out that much. And that is the one that is keeping the intertidal
07:28grass alive whenever there's development. They're going to reclaim on that subtitle seagrass,
07:34whether it's on the Singapore side, whether it's on the Malaysian side, the port or whatever.
07:39And when that goes, I don't know if the intertidal will survive. Yeah. So, I mean, fishermen and
07:48me, based on what I know beyond the fishermen, I don't know if in 10, 15, 20 years, we'll
07:53still have it. The area has been designated environmentally sensitive level one. But, you
08:01know, that's local planning. When you have already all of these committed developments,
08:05you can't cancel them. And it is, you know, I mean, it's a waterway that is used for so
08:12many things. We can't control what Singapore does. You have to think about the economic needs,
08:18right? So, this is the issue. So, a researcher like yourself, and you have described yourself
08:25as an accidental scholar activist. I hate that term. I'm just a teacher. Why do you hate that
08:33term? It sounds so like, I'm here to save the planet. No. Okay. I teach. I'm honoured to be
08:45able to learn from the fishermen because everything I know about the strait comes from them. I have
08:51a PhD but that doesn't mean anything. It just means I know how to speak and write academically.
08:57But everything I know about the strait, the biological content, the way the water moves,
09:02the habits of the species, that's local knowledge. And I'm just honoured to be able to sit there and
09:08annoy them for 18 years and get them to share all of this with me. Okay. So, talk to me
09:12about local
09:12knowledge and how it interacts with academia, with scientific knowledge. This is clearly something
09:22you're passionate about. Talk to me about it. Yeah. So, you know, the people who know the most
09:26about natural habitats and ecosystems are the peoples who are out there 24-7. So, people like fishermen,
09:33farmers, native people, indigenous people, their whole lives, their identity, their livelihoods,
09:40their past, their present, their future, depends on these natural habitats. They are in there. They
09:46see what's going on. They've known about climate change impacts long before we, as scientists,
09:53have ever written a paper on it. They just don't use the terminology that we use. They maybe don't
09:58speak in English. And just because of that, they don't get any credit for it, right? Do you want to
10:03know the
10:04best source of information on how the changes in the climate have affected everything? Talk to a
10:10fisherman. But a lot of people who are scientists do one of two things. They disparage this knowledge
10:16is inferior to academic science and they will not use it because they feel it is not valid. It cannot
10:24be
10:25sort of certified in any way that the people who are speaking to them are not educated.
10:30But I think the best education is nature, right? Sitting there and feeling it with all of your senses
10:36and being able to read it and notice the generations of practice have changed. Because now they tell me
10:44the wind, it used to be like one way for two weeks. Now it changes three times in a day.
10:50And they're not
10:51wrong because I go out to sea with them. And these storms come out of nowhere. You leave the jetty,
10:56it's hot. By the time you get out there and you're sitting there just for a little while,
11:00and then there's a storm. Now you're like, where did this come from? And you can't smell it anymore.
11:04You know, the fishermen can smell a storm coming before you can see the clouds.
11:07Wow. They tell me these things. You think a scientist can do that? No.
11:11So yeah, so these are the nuances that only someone who has spent their whole lives
11:17in water, around water, would be able to identify. How would a scientist be different or
11:24approach that differently? So a scientist would come down. And the other way they might tackle
11:27things is they'll ask the fishermen for information so that they know where their species is. They know
11:32what's changed. They know, oh, where's the grass? Has it, you know, seasonality grass grows retreats.
11:37Or if they're looking for a certain animal species, they ask the locals where it is, right? But they will
11:43never acknowledge it. They will do their study. They publish their paper. They'll discover a new species,
11:49get it named, appear on that, Joe. But they never recognize the people who told them where it is,
11:56who have seen the species long before they were born. But, you know, don't get it academically
12:00recognized. Doesn't mean that you've discovered it didn't exist before then. You know, these are the
12:06people who say, oh, at this time, oh, the wind is this way. So perhaps the algae is moving this
12:12way.
12:12So you'll find it over there. A scientist doesn't know this. They live in a lab. They come down once
12:18in
12:18three months and they tap this knowledge. They take the knowledge. They use it to their benefit.
12:24Maybe they get a, what do you call it? They get a paper out of it. They get publicity. Some
12:29of them use
12:29it to create things and then they get the, whatever, trademark and make money out of it. They get to
12:36name
12:36it because they discovered it. No recognition to the local community. We actually have laws in
12:41Malaysia under NRE, which says, and I can't remember the number because it's a number, but the law states
12:48that you cannot extract natural resources or knowledge about natural resources without
12:55recognizing the source, without compensating, whether it's in cash or credit or whatever.
13:01Many scientists choose to ignore this. But that's written into the law? It is. I have spoken to people
13:06NRE and I should by now remember the law now because I don't, but yes, I have on, you know,
13:13good faith that there is this thing. That's actually really, it's really important.
13:17And I need to like, yeah. So this is because we have indigenous communities, right? So we have
13:22Sabah Sarawak, we have our, um, peninsula communities and it's been recognized in law that these people and
13:30the resources are essentially abused. To me, I call it knowledge colonialism. We always talk about
13:36parachute science, but when we talk about parachute science in the industry, we always talk about
13:41Western scientists coming in and not giving local scientists a chance. To be honest, local scientists
13:46are pulling this with local communities. They're elitist, they're condescending, they're disparaging,
13:53and then they come to a space and they say, only I know about this place. So it's difficult.
13:58Serena, can I then ask you whether intent matters? Because I have heard when, you know, talking to
14:04either indigenous communities or coastal communities where they approach, the approach is more extractive
14:11as opposed to conservation or conservation. So scientists come down with the idea of conservation
14:19and studying nature, whereas local fishermen, for example, use nature and the ecosystems as a more
14:25for their livelihood. It's more, it's more about extraction. Does that, um, butt heads in a way,
14:32does that jive with each other, the collaboration when the intent is slightly different?
14:36I think, yeah. So the issue with, with communities is they need to survive. The reason why we can do
14:41science
14:42is because we're comfortable, we have a job, we have a salary. We don't live there amongst them, right?
14:46Okay. So this I learned the hard way because when I tell the fishermen, ah, you brought up an eagle
14:53ray.
14:54They're like, yeah, we need this. Like, you know, what am I going to feed my children? I'm like, okay.
14:59And so we started a sustainable fisheries program where they catch the thing by mistake. They don't do
15:04it intentionally. Like they don't want it. Um, they take a photo. It just, it just happened last night.
15:08One of the fishermen called me, um, and he caught like a really big shovel nose ray, which is IUCN
15:13critically endangered. Um, and they will tell me location, weight, length, gender. Um, yeah.
15:21And then take videos and photos and release. I give them a token amount so they have money,
15:26you know, but that's my money, right? I'm supposed to, when I have time, do like a crowd funding so
15:32that we can do this properly. Um, and also talk to people to do tagging or something. So they know
15:37that,
15:38that this leads to something. The fishermen that I work with already know,
15:41because we've been doing this for a while. They know that this information is important,
15:45but you have to convey this to the fishermen in a way that they can understand. If you tell them,
15:50stop catching this, right? They're like, then what am I going to feed my children?
15:54I have no other source. We have salaries. We can say that scientists don't always go to a place
16:00with conservation in mind. Sometimes scientists go to a place with a view to, I need to do this research
16:05paper because KPI, I need to get published. I want a grant. And you need grant money to get promoted,
16:14right? So intentions are not always so clear.
16:17Yeah. The fishermen may not be altruistic.
16:19Yeah. So fishermen also understand sometimes if you explain it, either that or they're tired of me
16:24telling them for 18 years, um, that, you know, if they protect this, there will be other species.
16:28In the past, we had these traditions. When, in this place where I am, right?
16:33So the older people will say, dulu, dulu, if they catch the crab with the eggs, they won't take it.
16:39They will release it. Oh.
16:41But this was at a time when, when I first came out in 2007, they were catching crabs, tons,
16:47hundreds of kilos. Abundance. Abundance.
16:50They could fish off the front of their house and get grouper this big. But now, over COVID,
16:56it came to a point where the fishermen go out for one morning and they come out with three crabs.
17:02Now it's coming back. Fisheries has done some crab releases. Um, so there is good numbers,
17:08but it's not stable like before. So of course, they're desperate. Our costs have gone up. Economy
17:14is difficult. Um, and if there is an opportunity, they'll go and catch it because they don't know when
17:21the next season will dry out. We had a patch where two, three years, we had no prawns,
17:25no prawns at all. Chinese New Year came and left. People were like, we want prawns.
17:29Well, there's no prawns. We can't do anything. And then suddenly there was like hundreds of kilos.
17:33And we're like, what's going on? So the seasonality has changed. The weather has changed.
17:37So because they're like, we don't know when it's going to come back, they will catch more than what
17:43they should. But this is because not that they want to abandon tradition, but they also have to survive,
17:50right? So in the past, they would let it go. They would know. They have beliefs that
17:55if you're going after the prawns and then you see a crocodile, you must stop, right? They have
18:00beliefs where if you're out catching prawns and you fight tomorrow, the prawns will disappear. And
18:05it's happened. I've seen it. So they have all these things and it prevents them from overfishing.
18:10So these traditions exist, right? So maybe the older, older, older people knew,
18:16if we come up with these stories, people will be afraid and it worked. But now because money is so
18:22tight, you have to abandon the story. You said you learnt it the hard way?
18:28Yeah, because I was like, ah, save this. And then I got scolded. So yeah. So then, you know, I
18:33also,
18:34I mean, I sit with a fisherman. I lived amongst them for very long, right? I still do. But I
18:38mean,
18:38we moved out to the town, but I'm at the jetty whenever I can. And you know, they're always like
18:44teaching me, yeah, this is important, but then how? May I ask? So I read a paper that you
18:51published in a journal and about this, the uncomfortable side of this work. I just wanted
18:56to ask you to explain a little bit about the danger that even the most well-intentioned
19:00researcher can end up imposing their own agenda on it. If I may quote you, you said,
19:06throughout it all, I questioned the wisdom of my providing people with a near impossible vision
19:10of surmounting entrenched power structures and the contravention of conservative cultural and
19:17gender norms. Talk to me a little bit about that, about you coming in as a researcher,
19:23even though you live with them for a really long time, but you have different backgrounds,
19:27different upbringings and a different mindset. So talk to me about that tension when you live within
19:32a community. Yeah. So this is like conservative Malay village, right? And I'm so not. I mean,
19:39I wear berms and slippers. Um, no turung. Um, and like, hang out with the fishermen. This is not stuff
19:48that's done. Um, and so I went there not as a researcher. I went there just to teach kids, right?
19:54But it was seen as slightly inappropriate. I mean, I was invited by a group and then I sort of
20:01stayed
20:01because I was just floating that way. Um, and I was having fun, right? And the place opened up,
20:08I could rent it. So I stayed there and people are like, who's this girl from the city? She's got
20:13her own
20:13car. She comes here and she stays, hangs out with fishermen. So this goes against all the gender norms.
20:19On top of that, I'm at sea. I'm jumping into the water. I have a dive tank. Um, my, now
20:25my husband,
20:26his grandfather, the first time he saw me with a tank, he was like, Oh, girls dive too. I'm like,
20:31yeah. So it's, you know, this kind of thing, just that there's a female at sea doing this kind of
20:36stuff
20:36where we are. There's very few women that go fishing, right? Um, and those that do go with the
20:41husbands, they don't do it alone. They don't get in the water. So fishermen are very good on the water,
20:46but they've got a lot of pantangs about the water. Here I am jumping off the boat into the water
20:51and
20:51they're like, Oh my God, she's gone. You know? Um, and so it's, it's a shock to them. And then
20:57I'm
20:57female. So that makes it even worse. Like the fishermen will talk to me. I mean, they, they used to
21:02having me around. They joke with me. Now they're all like my uncles, right? But I, I am the example
21:07that
21:08they do not want their children to be. Their daughters cannot be anything like me. I work in the sun,
21:14and then, you know, like not, like not attractive to be married off. I don't have children, you know,
21:20this kind of thing. So it's, it breaks every gender norm and expectation that they have.
21:25Um, they think it's, I think they think it's cool initially. It's funny because I used to buy
21:30petrol for them, like by the tanks, ah, and I can carry it. So I'm strong. I jump off and
21:34off the,
21:35the truck, the truck. Um, my husband very naughtily told me, go pick up the engine and put it over
21:41there.
21:41And I, I could carry it. I was younger lah. And they were like, ah, you know, it's carrying an
21:45engine. I'm like, yeah, why? I thought I would break it or something, right? They're just stunned
21:49that I can carry it because this thing is these men, they take care of their women so much,
21:54cannot carry this, cannot do that. And I'm just like wild and free. So these are the gender norms
22:00that, you know, the women don't go out for runs. And I did, um, I mean, properly attired, but you're
22:06not
22:06on your own. It took me a very long time to realize they don't even go out on their own.
22:10They were
22:11always have their husband, like grocery shopping or, um, a child or a sister on the motorbike,
22:16even when they're like going house to house and gossiping, right? They don't do it alone.
22:20I go out to eat alone. I buy things alone. I'm married now, but I do everything alone to a
22:27point
22:27where I was sitting at the warong eating and this boy came and he was like, kak, um, I've seen
22:33you here
22:33for three days on your own. Are you okay? I'm hungry. And you know, so it's that every time they
22:38see me,
22:38they're like, oh, you're alone. And I'm like, yeah. Does that interfere with the research work?
22:43I don't talk to the women. They don't want to talk to you? I stay away for my sanity. Okay.
22:49Because also it's a different world, right? So then their questions are not questions that I want
22:53to answer. They're very interested in the more personal, incredibly personal that I don't need to
22:59share. But this is how they're more interested in that kind of thing than say, where's the fish
23:04going? You know, what's the weather like? So if there is a social gathering that I used to bother
23:08to go to, now I don't, um, I will sit with the fishermen because then I get more, I get
23:13more
23:13sea information. Right. So that was difficult. Okay. So, so I, time is jealous of us right now.
23:19So talk to me a little bit about that. So if there are, there's a next generation of young women
23:24who are interested in field research, the way you have, what advice do you have so that their work
23:33actually isn't, is, is helping and not interfering? I would say be careful because a lot of the things
23:41I did, I was very lucky my whole life doing this kind of work, um, to be in places where
23:47people were
23:48nice. In this world now, it's so dangerous and you could get murdered. Like I wouldn't recommend it.
23:54Now when I have students that go into the field, I'm like on them. If they don't message me in
23:58three
23:58days, I want to know where they are and whether they're safe. It's a different time. It's a different
24:02time. Um, and I was very lucky that I had people who were really genuinely concerned. I think today
24:09it's, it's a weirdly very different world. Then we have natural disasters. So if you are on the coastline,
24:13there's all kinds of risks. I would say be very careful. Right. Try not to go alone. Like
24:17I did just back up and move. You are like, uh, you only realize this like 10, 15 years later.
24:22Oh, the recklessness on you. When you're an adult. Yes. Um, so, so I would say be careful now.
24:28It's not the same as 15 years ago. Okay. But what else would you advise in terms of addressing that
24:34knowledge colonialism that you pointed out? Because I think that's also quite important.
24:37Yeah. So, so my thing is we are not here for an intervention. Must always, always realize that you
24:44know nothing compared to a local person who's been there all their life. Um, I teach my students,
24:50empathy is not just, you know, feeling sympathy for someone, but believing them when they tell you
24:56the situation is such and you're like, eh, but in the real world, it's not like this. In these people's
25:01worlds, this is their reality. And you have to accept that as a reality, even though it's not your
25:07reality. And you must recognize them and, and sort of respect that respect humility. Um, don't throw
25:15your education around because it means nothing. Um, and don't believe that you know all the answers.
25:22How would you like it? If someone came to your house and said, you're doing everything wrong,
25:26you must do it this way. But this is what a lot of people do. And I wouldn't want someone
25:31to tell me
25:31that. So we shouldn't do that to people. Um, we should recognize them when they share information
25:36with us. We should not steal the knowledge. We should not say, and there are NGOs, there are
25:41scientists who say, I'm the only one who knows everything here. We've been doing this research
25:45for years. Local community has too. You know, I'm putting together a website to, with MBIP, who's been
25:52very supportive of us. That's our local council at Skandaputri. So this website will showcase all of the
25:57knowledge of the fishermen that I've collected for the last 18 years, just to show that the local
26:02people have as much scientific knowledge. It's called traditional science. Um, and it will be
26:07accessible to everyone because who reads our journal articles? I'm amazed you read it. Like why? You know,
26:14so this is public knowledge that needs to be shared with people. All of our data, I want to put
26:20in a
26:20Johor state repository because why am I hoarding this? Right? I could die tomorrow, get hit by a bus,
26:26go and work. And it needs to be somewhere that everyone can access because this is local
26:31knowledge by the public, for the public. Everyone should benefit from it. And we need to recognize
26:39that people with no education in schools or certificates have as much if not more. I'm not
26:46saying that academic science is inferior. It is complementary. We have technologies, we have models,
26:52we can predict the future, but we really can't. Um, and, but we can't do that without the local
26:57knowledge. Okay. So it comes together. Wonderful. It's public good. It's the heritage,
27:02right? Yes. Yes, everything. Sayla, I've had such a good time talking to you. Thank you so much for
27:06coming on the show and sharing your work with us. No worries. Thanks for inviting me. That's all the time
27:09we have for you on this episode of The Futures Female. I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
27:14Thank you so much for watching. And good night.