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The Pahang Peatland Restoration Project is one of the largest initiatives of its kind, and like many big conservation efforts, it brings together science, community needs, policy, and scrutiny. On this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale Melisa Idris speaks with Dr Jane Koh, project lead of the Pahang Peatland Restoration Project.
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00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to the Future is Female. This is the show where
00:16we find the extraordinary in every woman. Now, peatlands, well they don't often make headlines
00:23but they really should because they store vast amounts of carbon and are central to Malaysia's
00:29climate future. The Pahang Peatlands Restoration Project is one of the largest initiatives of its
00:36kind in the world. Like many big conservation projects, it brings together science, community needs,
00:43policy and scrutiny. We're joined today by its project lead, Dr Jane Koh, who will talk about
00:50what restoration really looks like on the ground, how communities are involved and what accountability
00:56and transparency mean for a project of this scale. So, welcome to the show Dr Jane. Thank you so much
01:02for joining me today. As I said earlier, peatlands don't often make it into mainstream conversations.
01:09I'm curious to know what drew you first to this work. How did you end up leading such a huge project?
01:18Peatland restoration by itself is something that indeed not many people would take it out. Peat swamp forest
01:31is wet, you may sink into the peatland and it's not as comfortable as a normal hill forest that you go hiking
01:43with. But as you say Mel, it stores a large amount of carbon in the forest as well as below the ground
01:53in the peat soil itself. And so what it means is it makes a good opportunity to conserve through carbon
02:02financing. Carbon financing. Carbon financing itself, carbon project is an interesting concept and that's
02:11what drew me into this space. It is not a silver bullet, but it does generate financing from buyer through
02:22scientific results, quantifying the emissions reduction or removal properly, use the methodology that
02:31is that is proven and tested. And the money that is generated can go into biodiversity, conservation
02:41and management, can go into community development. So it is very, very exciting indeed.
02:47Okay, so talk to me about the Pahang Peatland restoration project. I think what strikes me is the
02:54sheer size of it. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about what it is and what it hopes to achieve and
03:00where we are currently. Right. The Pahang Peatland restoration project, sometimes we call it by its
03:08acronym PPRP, is 97,000 hectare. 97,000 hectare, it means bigger than Singapore. Amazing. So can you imagine
03:20it is a contiguous forest with two river systems running through it. That is the size of Singapore.
03:28Right. The Pahang Peatland is surrounded by many communities as well. So around our project area,
03:42there are 11 communities, orang asli jakun communities that we work with closely. And where we are now,
03:52so it is a carbon project. So what it means is we have to design the project, we have to send it,
03:58we have to send it for validation to a standard body. In our case, the standards body is VERA. Right.
04:08So we are at the stage of validating the project with auditor's help. Right. So we are,
04:18we expect to start producing carbon credit, issuing carbon credit quarter one of next year.
04:25Wow. That's soon. That's very soon. Okay. So walk me through what the work is like on the ground. When
04:31you talk about Peatland's restoration, what does it entail on the ground? I've done a couple of
04:37interviews about this and it seems to me the science behind it is very complex. It's, it's, it's hard work.
04:44And it's also to be able to see the results takes a while. So talk to me about what, what restoration
04:52looks like on the ground, um, the different interventions that are needed. Right. So before
04:57I go into, uh, what we actually do on the ground, maybe let me touch a slight, slightly a little bit
05:04on the science side. Sure. What is Peatland? So Peatland is like a huge sponge. So it stores water,
05:11it regulates water. So when there is heavy rainfall, it doesn't wash from the surface right down to the
05:17river, it soak into the water, into the peat soil, right? And from there it release slowly into the
05:24water. So the two river system that is in our project area, the water is black. It's black water and
05:31it's absolutely beautiful because when the water is calm, there is this mirror effect. Very, very nice
05:40reflection. Yeah. So, um, so what is important for peatland is you have to keep the peatland wet. Okay.
05:49When the peatland is dry, um, there is lots of organic material inside there. When it is dry, this fine
06:00organic material, it becomes, uh, it catch fire easily. Yep. Yeah. So one of our key, uh, key, uh, tasks,
06:10firstly, is to prevent the draining of peatland. And secondly, to, to, to prevent and help suppress
06:18fire. Fire risk. Yeah. So when there is fire, all this fine material that is stored in the ground
06:24for thousands of years, it will, uh, release a CO2 into the air and that's where your climate, uh,
06:32change get worse. Yeah. So we have heard of peatland fires, uh, and the risk, um, okay. So re-wetting,
06:40long-term re-wetting is, uh, it's one of the interventions to restore peatlands. Um, and you also
06:47talked about the draining. So you want to also stop illegal drainage or you want to make sure that the
06:53area is wet, um, and hydrological monitoring comes into play as well. So when we think about,
07:01uh, restoration of peatlands, especially one of this scale, I mean, the sheer scale of it is so
07:07intimidating, I'm sure. Uh, walk me through what's needed. What are the challenges you face when dealing
07:13with a project of this size? Right. Yeah. So there are, uh, drains or canals inside this peach form
07:21forest because the peach, this peach form forest that we manage, it used to be a, uh, forest for
07:27timber production. So, uh, for timber production, they want to take out the logs. So some of, uh, some
07:34of them use canal to float it up. Yeah. We've seen the pictures of rivers and canals. Right. They're full
07:41of, um, logs, right? Yeah. Um, but in this, uh, in this case, you know, they have changed the method
07:48into a more sustainable, uh, way of logging on peatlands. So they don't do canals anymore.
07:54They do roads. Right. Logging roads. But even with logging roads, you still need to have, um, uh,
08:02drains at the site so that your roads are not flooded. I see. And it create the same effect.
08:09It still drain out the water and dry out the peatland. Right. So what we do is we actually block
08:16these canals and these ditches. We put, um, canal blocks inside the existing, uh, uh, canal network
08:24that we have in, uh, on the ground. Right. So far since 2024, we have since 2023, actually,
08:33we have done 256 canal blocks, uh, inside the forest reserve. Wow. And that helps with stopping the
08:41drainage. Stopping the drainage and rewetting it slowly. Okay. How, how long does it take before
08:46you get to see the effects of these types of interventions? Um, uh, some are quite, quite fast.
08:53As in, we actually see that logging roads with the canal blocks that we have blocked, uh, uh, last year,
09:01it become wetter now. Right. Sometimes it's flooded. Right. But we don't want people to go inside there.
09:07We don't want loggers to go inside there. So flood, so flooding of logging roads is okay. Okay.
09:13And we are very happy because when it's, when it is a healthy sign for a peatland forest. I see.
09:19So it's one of the signs to show that maybe it's working, that the restoration is working. Yeah. Okay.
09:24You know, this, this project is not only large, it's very technical, I'm sure. Um, and it involves
09:31many stakeholders. I can only think of how many stakeholders that are involved in, in, um, making
09:38sure a project like this runs smoothly. You being the lead, I'm sure comes with, um, many hats that
09:45you wear, but also a long list of tasks that you need to consider and think through. Talk to me a
09:51little bit about the realities of leading this type of a project, particularly, um, the collaboration
09:57that's needed with all the stakeholders and maybe some of the, um, the trade-offs that must,
10:03that need to be, um, considered. Oh, you hit, you hit the correct word there. Um,
10:09I am a political ecologist, trade-off, trade-off is what I say all the time. Okay.
10:14Okay. So when you manage a, uh, uh, landscape, uh, humanscape, right? Because we're talking about
10:22humanscape. Yeah. Social, spatial relationship between nature and human beings. Um, there is
10:29trade-off all the time, right? There is no single species in the nature that can be, uh, totally
10:37independent of other species and the surrounding, uh, same as human beings, right? So when we have,
10:44uh, uh, landscape with the community, right? When we want to do something, uh, uh, with the piece of
10:52land that they have been, uh, uh, living in since time immemorial, right? So there could be trade-off.
11:01For example, if we build canal blocks that may create a better fishing ground for them,
11:11because now the water is, is pooled, they can go fishing, but it, it may actually block the access.
11:17So these are the trade-off that we have with communities, right? Um, but one thing that I
11:23would like to stress is we, um, even though with this carbon project, the Orang Asli community,
11:30they still have the rights to use the forest, uh, for their subsistence needs, right? Okay. For their,
11:36uh, uh, so they have access to it. They have access. They can go in and fish and gather non-timber
11:42forest products for their livelihood. They are welcome to do that. People, sometimes people
11:48misunderstood. They thought, oh, if you have a project, you block off access. No, no, no, we don't.
11:53We welcome them and we work with them all the time. Yeah. So, so just on the issue of indigenous
11:59communities concerns, I think there were, um, some groups that had raised concerns about, uh,
12:04community involvement or the consultation. Talk to me a little bit about, um, how, um, PPRP
12:12works with local communities. How do you address those concerns, first of all? Um, and what,
12:18what efforts are being taken to make sure that the people who live in the forest and depend on the
12:24forest, um, and the ecosystem are genuinely part of the process? Right. Um, for that, I would like to
12:33talk a little bit about my team. Sure. Right. Uh, I have a very, very diverse team. So, uh, a team of
12:39about 70 people ranging from PhD holders to school dropouts. Okay. Right. So, um, and we have a dedicated
12:50community development team. Yeah. Half of my team, uh, of the 70 people, they are orang asli
12:58Jakun community, community members. They are from the community. They are community. Yeah. They are from the
13:04community. So that, that makes communication easier. Okay. Yeah. But they also, um, uh, it's, it's also a
13:12part of community development that we want to see. We want to have them as role model, uh, for, for the
13:19communities themselves. So with this team of, uh, 12 people, community development team, we go to the
13:27community all the time. Every week we are there. We talk to them. We ask for their concern. We
13:34have fun with them. Right. So last year we all get, so that wasn't last year. That was this year.
13:40Right. Oh, time flies. Time flies. We're at the end of 2025. Can you imagine? Yeah. So we, we, we had a
13:50festival. We called it Festival Ranok, right? Where, um, basically it's a cultural fair. We, we gather
13:58almost 3,000 orang asli Jakun, uh, community in, inside the village in, uh, uh, Kampong RPS Runchang, uh, uh,
14:09next to the forest. Um, uh, they are the front and the center. We help them to organize this, uh, this
14:18festival and the festivals. We invite other stakeholders. Just now you asked about stakeholders,
14:25right? Government, government, right? Other NGOs, right? To, uh, to participate as well. So they have
14:33the booth. For example, we have a booth for, um, the health department. So they offer health check
14:40during the festival. And then we have the national registration department, helping people to
14:46register IC and birth certification, right? And the, uh, Bomba was there as well to show, to, to,
14:54to tell people about fire prevention and things like that. So that was quite a, um, quite a successful
15:02festival, I must say. I'm very proud that we managed to achieve that. And, and it was very,
15:10very nice to see that we bring the community together and have fun. Yeah. But also creating
15:16that continuous, that, that channel for communication, right? Exactly. Um, I think the,
15:22the ability to have feedback and communication is what is key when consulting or including, uh,
15:29indigenous communities in, in projects like this. Yes, it is indeed. It is indeed. And, uh, the other,
15:36the other, uh, way that we do to enhance this, uh, communication with communities is we have this
15:44thing called Community Development Association. We, uh, we established it, uh, this year, middle of this
15:50year, and they call themselves Persatuan Ranok Kita, right? So, uh, yeah, they help us to organize event.
15:58So eventually this Persatuan, this, this association will be, um, will be our partner in helping us to, uh, use the, um, uh, benefit
16:15that we take from the carbon market, uh, to distribute it in an equitable manner, uh, to the communities surrounding.
16:23Oh, that there is, uh, almost circular way. Benefit sharing. Benefit sharing. Well, talk to me about that,
16:29because with carbon projects, um, you mentioned stakeholders earlier, and we talked about indigenous
16:35communities, maybe government forestry agencies. Um, then there's also, because this is a carbon project,
16:41there's also, um, private investors involved, right? Yes. Private funders. So, um, talk to me about
16:50what that is. I have been hearing a lot about carbon projects lately, and sometimes with controversy,
16:57how is your project approaching transparency when there is a real risk of conflict of interest
17:04with carbon projects? Right. Um, transparency, it is the key word actually, um, vera standards that we
17:14follow. The, uh, standards body, right? The standards, yeah. The one that's doing the validation. Yes.
17:21So, we have two standards that we follow, the vera, uh, verified carbon standard, VCS,
17:28and we also follow the climate, community, and biodiversity standard, CCB. Okay. Right. So, the key to these,
17:36um, uh, two standards, uh, firstly is the integrity of the, uh, emissions reduction, emissions remover that we
17:46produce, right? So, for a high quality carbon project, we have to make sure that every single, um,
17:55carbon credit that we produce is additional, is permanent, and it doesn't cause leakage of emission,
18:04uh, somewhere else. Okay. These three big principle of carbon crediting, uh, is, uh, very stringently
18:11followed by our, by our project. If not, we will not pass vera. Okay. Okay. Okay. What, why do you think
18:19carbon projects get so much controversy? What, why do you think there are, uh, critics of carbon
18:27projects? Particularly because you're a scientist, you're involved in, um, you know, this huge carbon
18:33project. Do you see, how do you see the debate that's playing out in the public discourse at the moment?
18:39The, the, the, in the public discourse, there are people who does not, uh, believe in carbon crediting,
18:45um, um, because I think one of the expectations of these critics, uh, they expect it to be a silver
18:55bullet. Oh. Carbon crediting never claimed itself to be the only solution. It is one of the many
19:05solutions. In fact, I just came from, um, uh, a movement called Outer Corp. There is the Corp conference
19:13of the parties of UNFCCC in Berlin, Brazil this year. It's too expensive to go there. So we have
19:20one movement here called the Outer Corp in Kuala Lumpur. Wonderful. And, um, that is carbon financing
19:28and other financing, other type of conservation financing is being talked about. Yeah. Carbon
19:35financing is but one channel. There are some other ways to get financing to, uh, to, to, to conserve nature
19:43and to mitigate climate change. Yeah. So when, when people, uh, when, you know, critics of carbon
19:49projects say, oh, this is a way to keep polluters from making those deep emissions cuts that they need
19:56to, that they, you know, they use carbon credits to offset some of their, um, emissions. How do you
20:02respond to that? Um, when you say it's not a silver bullet, I, I understand that theoretically, but in
20:08practice, um, there is this urgency or the need for climate action to be, to be ramped up, stepped
20:17up, um, and carbon credit projects are often used as avoidance projects. How do you respond to people
20:25who make that claim? The, um, uh, without carbon crediting, it is fine. Okay. Uh, climate change is,
20:37as you say in such a, uh, uh, urgent, uh, need. Yeah. We, we, we want to see more, right? Yeah. More climate action.
20:43Yeah. It's a crisis now. You need both the stick and the, and the carrot. The stick and the carrot.
20:50The stick and the carrot. Okay. Right. So you can tell the companies, thou shall not admit. Okay. Okay.
20:57Uh, why do they want to follow? Okay. So the government have to put some stick. One of the stick is carbon
21:09pricing, carbon tax that Malaysia is going to, uh, introduce next year. Um, and also, uh, emission trading
21:17system ETS. Yeah. Um, the carrot is a carbon credit thing. Right. So, um, for the companies, um, let me give an
21:31analogy. So you have a squeezy bottle of ketchup. Okay. Right. Efforts is very easy to pull out. The last
21:38drop is always the, the, the most difficult. Yeah. Hardest. Yeah. The hardest. Right. So, uh, companies,
21:45they cut their emissions. It's an easy flow catch up. The last one is so difficult. So this hard to
21:53abate emissions. That's where you, you know, you say, okay, it is too, too, too, too expensive for me to,
22:02to, to, to abate this emission. Let me do something else to help the climate. That's where
22:08they, you know, they use offset carbon offset. Yeah. What do you think of the, so, uh, in COP30,
22:15there was proposed the tropical forest facility fund. Oh, that is so exciting. Is it? Talk to me.
22:22How do you see that? I mean, I know there are critics along the way, there are concerns of deforestation
22:28and all of, and, and debt, um, and some countries are not willing to contribute as much as others.
22:34What do you think about it? Is this, is this a huge, um, opportunity or hope for us that we will get our
22:41act together and maybe protect some of our forests? Yeah. And yeah, it is definitely and, uh, uh, both
22:48opportunity and, and hope, right? Carbon project is actually not, not easy. Yeah. But, uh, just now I
22:55mentioned the three big principle, the additionality, the permanence and the leakage, right? So to prove
23:02that to, to, to, to monitor it, to monitor the results constantly is not an easy task. Not all the
23:10forest, not every single piece of forest in Malaysia is qualified for, for carbon project. Not to say
23:17qualify is, um, not every single piece of project may find carbon financing viable. I see. So that's where
23:26that's a very important distinction to make. Yes. That's right. So, so then you need some other financing.
23:32Okay. Right. So this tropical, uh, forest, uh, forever fun, right? Is something that, uh, quite exciting. I'm
23:41waiting to see how it, uh, the mechanism, uh, to implement it will be, right? In Malaysia,
23:48there is a similar thing. There is actually the Malaysia Forest Fund. Yes. Yes. So Malaysia is actually,
23:54uh, uh, playing its role quite well. Malaysia Forest Fund is also actively trying to get involvement from
24:02corporations, et cetera, to help, uh, the country preserve, uh, our green lungs, our forest. So, um, at the
24:10start of the conversation you were telling me that, you know, this has been quite a long, a work in
24:15progress. You've put in so much legwork. Now we're on the cusp of it beginning in quarter one of next
24:22year. When you look ahead, what are you most excited about? What, what would you look for maybe in the
24:30next five, 10 years to say this project is really taking off that peatland restoration in this scale
24:37and this size can work and can, um, succeed both in terms of achieving its, um, carbon, uh, carbon
24:47project, um, objectives, but also, um, be inclusive enough to fulfill community needs and not isolate or
24:55sideline communities. Right. There was the, all three aspects of it, the climate, community and
25:00biodiversity. Climate just now I mentioned that, you know, the logging road is now flooding. What I will be
25:06very exciting to see is when the tree regenerate and, you know, it turn the degraded forest back into a
25:14thriving, healthy, uh, peatland forest. Right. So that's one thing. Uh, the other one is a biodiversity aspect.
25:21Yeah. So in, in our landscape, there is, um, 29 rare threatened and endangered species, RTE we call them,
25:30and four of them are critically endangered. Yeah. And these are, this is the habitat that we want to,
25:37we want to protect for them. Yeah. So that's biodiversity. Right. Community is probably the most, uh,
25:44exciting. I encourage my, my team to think about this project as a multi-generational, uh, uh, project
25:53because it's 60 years. Yeah. It's a, it's a 60 years project in, um, uh, in the Orang Asli Jakun
26:02community. It's two to three generations. We can do a lot for, for, for, for the community in two to
26:09three generations. We can transform them. Well, amazing. Well, I wish you all the best of luck on
26:15this project. Dr. Jane, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing some of the insights,
26:20how exciting it is to be on the cusp of something so big and so monumental. Thank you so much for
26:25coming and telling us about it. Thank you, Melissa. Okay. That's all the time we have for you on this
26:29episode of the Futures Female. I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for
26:34watching and good night. Thank you.
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