- 2 days ago
- #thefutureisfemale
Often when we talk about care for cognitive decline and dementia, the focus is often very medical. Is using art and creative engagement as an intervention missing from that conversation today? On this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale Melisa Idris speaks with Professor Dr Rozainee Khairudin, Director of Taylor’s University’s Mental Health and Well-being Impact Lab. Dr Rozainee is currently the Head of the Psychology Department, where her primary research interests focus on mindset and cognitive decline.
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00:10Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to The Future is Female. This is the show where
00:16we find the extraordinary in every woman. I am so delighted to introduce my guest today. She is
00:22Professor Dr. Rozaini Khairuddin, who is the Director of Taylor University's Mental Health
00:28and Wellbeing Impact Lab, where she's also the University's Head of the Psychology Department.
00:36Her primary research interests focus on mindset and cognitive decline. That's going to be the
00:43topic of our conversation today. Professor Rozaini, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining
00:47me. I have long been so interested in the way our mind works. I think your research interest is
00:57fantastic. But I'm quite curious to know if you've always been in the field of psychology
01:03and when did you start honing in or focusing on cognitive decline in particular?
01:11Thank you, Melissa. Thank you for having me on your show. Well, to answer your question, there are two
01:18two-folds, I would say, to my journey. One professional, the other personal. From a professional standpoint,
01:28as you mentioned, cognitive psychology, it is my specialisation, my field. And if you compare from
01:37other areas in psychology, cognitive psychology, cognitive psychology is still less widely understood,
01:48especially here in Malaysia. So I'm glad when you said, you know, you've been interested to know about
01:54how people's minds work. And it's exactly that. Because I wanted to say, you know, what is cognitive
02:02psychology really? So it's an area that focuses on how people think, basically, and how people remember,
02:16make decisions, process information, how these mental processes ultimately shape our behaviour.
02:26So this curiosity naturally profoundly shaped my interest in studying the mechanisms behind how or why
02:43people behave as they do. So yeah, Melissa, that's how I...
02:48You said it was twofold. You said there was one that was professional and there was one that's personal.
02:52Yeah. Personal level, on a personal level, my interest in cognitive decline and dementia particularly is
03:03really close to my heart. My late grandmother and mother both experienced cognitive deterioration.
03:14My grandmother, she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, while my mother,
03:21she sadly experienced cognitive impairment following a stroke. Witnessing their journeys
03:33first hand also shaped my commitment and my motivation to better understand cognitive decline and dementia.
03:44not just from a scientific perspective, but also human one.
03:53Which is wonderful because you bring your yourself to it, right? It's more than just a job. It's now a
04:01passion and a calling.
04:03I'm so sorry to hear about your family but I am so proud that you've used that adversity or that
04:10tragedy in the family to have to make social impact.
04:15Tell us or introduce us to ArtsProud because that's a wonderful initiative. Talk to us the audience about what you
04:23are doing with that project and what you hope to achieve through it.
04:27Thanks. Thanks. A very, very interesting question and I am more than happy to share what ArtsProud is.
04:35ArtsProud to begin with is a social enterprise. It was co-founded by Jeff Liang. Now he's a dance and
04:46performance maker and his wife, Penny, is a vocalist.
04:52And what they envision to do is very simple but yet very, very powerful. To re-imagine elder care with
05:08creativity.
05:08So Jeff and Penny, using their profession, they design arts-based activities like singing, movement, performance to engage older adults,
05:26especially those who are experiencing loneliness and social isolation.
05:34Because that's part of what also exacerbates cognitive decline, right?
05:40Absolutely, yes. Because, you know, when you say ageing, you naturally will try to relate it to cognitive decline.
05:52I would like to make a point between the normal ageing, cognitive decline in that manner and also the abnormal
06:02cognitive impairment.
06:03So that's a, it's actually two different things because we age, you can't control that.
06:10So there's a normal ageing in terms of cognitive functions. But of course, for example, Alzheimer's disease, yeah, that's abnormal.
06:18Thank you for making that distinction. I do think it goes both ways that we sometimes we lump it into,
06:26you know, all ageing cognitive decline is Alzheimer's, for instance.
06:33But, and vice versa, you think that, oh, it's hard to get, sometimes if I understand correctly, Alzheimer's disease is
06:41often underreported or underdiagnosed or late diagnosis because people think, oh, this is just normal part of ageing as well.
06:49So you said elder care with creativity. So talk to me a little bit about that. Why is that a
06:58novel or unique approach? Because most of the times when I think about elder care or care of someone with
07:06dementia or cognitive decline, it's often a medical perspective.
07:12How do we treat this as a medical condition? But using art and creativity, performance seems like a new and
07:22novel approach.
07:24Yes, absolutely. Correct. And I would 100% agree with your statement in the sense that every time we talk
07:34about dementia, Alzheimer's disease being the most common type of dementia,
07:39we would relate it to clinical care, we would relate it to clinical care, which I agree and you cannot
07:44put aside the importance of medical care. That's definitely something that we can't avoid.
07:55Right. And also, you know, when we talk about Alzheimer's disease, for example, we relate it to diagnosis, medication and
08:05clinical care.
08:05But seldom people talk about other things, right? And that is exactly what my collaboration with Jeff and Penny from
08:16Artsprout to try to not shift, but to let people know that, yes, medication is very, very important.
08:29We would like to complement that with a scientific evidence-based data to show that simple, daily, everyday routine can
08:43also help brain health.
08:45Oh, what do you mean? Tell me more.
08:47For example, it's from their professional, Jeff and Penny, he's a dancer, she's a vocalist, but as simple as singing,
08:56music, right? Simple as singing, simple movement of dancing.
09:01So that's what we're trying to do, the art-based, not only that, also the social engagement.
09:06Because you can't sing and perform by yourself.
09:09Absolutely.
09:10You need an audience.
09:10Exactly.
09:12You need an audience and when you dance, yeah, you dance with, you can dance by yourself, but most of
09:18the time you will have a partner or you dance, you know, in the group.
09:22So that kind of indirect social engagement also helps.
09:27So what, well, I try to make or to, what's the word, to advocate is that what we can complement
09:39with clinical care is also simple, daily, lifestyle-based.
09:45In this context, art-based, like singing, movement, dancing, performance and all that.
09:51So this is exactly what we're trying to prove.
09:54We're not saying that there haven't been evidence yet, but no strong scientific evidence.
10:00Oh, so there is a gap in the literature about this, I see.
10:03There is a gap.
10:04And this is a big project for us that we want to promote.
10:12And as I said, the researchers, I lead some researchers at Taylor's University to provide a rigorous scientific methods to
10:24test its effectiveness of, you know, doing everyday lifestyle-based, in this case, the art-based.
10:33I love that.
10:34What are you hoping to achieve with this research?
10:38Let's say the research goes well.
10:40You have data and evidence that backs the fact that creativity can be part of the supplement, the complementary of
10:51dementia care.
10:53What are you hoping changes in the way we as a society approaches dementia care?
10:59What I hope is gradually people can accept.
11:06Not only that, at a national level or rather, you know, policymakers will start looking at probably to supplement, to
11:17complement the medical care, the conventional idea of relating dementia care,
11:23to more of an approach that is more holistic, involving behavioural lifestyle-based as well.
11:33And that could change the whole setting of people, you know, the care for people experiencing or suffering from brain
11:44damage or brain, you know, cognitive decline.
11:46Because sometimes, once you leave the hospital, you're pretty much left on your own in terms of dementia care, right?
11:54But this could also be part of the community.
11:58It can be expanded to not just the onus of the caretaker themselves.
12:05Exactly, yes.
12:06And also, if I can add to that, people who suffer cognitive decline, I mean, you know, definitely they suffer
12:21their emotional well-being as well.
12:24But we often forget the carers, the people who are taking care of them.
12:30And way back in, I can't remember the year, but about six to seven years ago, I did do a
12:37research that are on dementia patients as well as their caretakers.
12:42And what we found is that to care for such people, they, of course, the impact is on the mental
12:54health for the caretakers.
12:58And the caretakers suffer chronic stress, high level of anxiety, and of course, depression.
13:07And this also, we have to be sensitive.
13:10We, as a community, have to be sensitive of that too.
13:13And if we can provide, you know, daily, easily done activities daily, change the lifestyle, that could benefit not only
13:26the patients, the carers themselves.
13:28Carers as well.
13:29Because then since it's, you know, it's enjoyable.
13:33So, since we're on the topic of those who are caretakers or taking care of people with cognitive decline or
13:41dementia, can you talk to me about the gender dimension of it?
13:46It's my experience is that it's always the women who are entrusted with elder care, particularly if someone is going
13:54through neuro changes.
13:58How do you, how, you're, based on your work, has that been an observation that you have made as well?
14:03I probably say that's a little bit of a bias there.
14:07And we say kind of heuristic because that's what you often see in media, for example, carer.
14:14And for me, it's no one to blame because women are seen as natural, you know, people who nurture people,
14:27take care of people.
14:29And also, I think because of their socialization and also lived experiences, give them a little of an advantage of
14:39being more empathetic.
14:42They are more patient and also more attentive.
14:47I guess the bias is there.
14:50But we have to be cautious if we say, you know, women are more of the carer.
14:56I think men can be a great deal of a good carer themselves.
15:01Definitely, I agree with you.
15:03There really is no kind of limitation to who can provide that care.
15:08When we think about how art and creativity and performance can benefit someone who is going through that situation and
15:17going through the journey of decline,
15:20talk to me about the cultural setting.
15:24Is this something that's suited for our specific Malaysian context?
15:31And because we are quite multicultural in that context, how does art and performance fit into maybe someone who is
15:41of our society,
15:43which is a bit more sopan?
15:47How do you see it?
15:48Well, probably, you know, at least in my opinion, being Malaysian, being a Malaysian, actually we are so rich in
16:00our culture.
16:01And then when we say dance, it doesn't mean a certain type of dance.
16:09Dance is actually a movement.
16:10And if you, I mean, to suit our culture, a simple joget or a simple tarian Melayu or even the
16:21Indian, you know, that classical dance,
16:25Chinese opera, everything is actually a movement.
16:30What's happening is that what's happening to the brain, what's processing, basically, is the movement itself.
16:39So the coordination and, you know, how it processes information.
16:46And, you know, for cognitive psychologists, we also have the idea of modularity,
16:53where by different parts of the brain is processing different things.
16:58So would it be that the area that is involved in creativity and self-expression, is that separate from areas
17:07that are affected by maybe more?
17:11According to this theory.
17:12Wonderful.
17:12But it can support the damaged part in a way, right?
17:18In a way, it can support.
17:19And also the idea of neuroplasticity.
17:21I'm sure you've heard of it.
17:23The idea of neuroplasticity views the brain as literally as a plastic.
17:30So if like some parts of the brain, okay, has been damaged due to stroke or whatever.
17:36And so this kind of movements and singing, listening to music, so that the other part of the brain that
17:45is, you know, still intact
17:47and could also support and help to, like a plastic, to kind of mould or, you know, correct itself in
17:57such a way.
17:57The brain is a remarkable thing.
17:59It is a remarkable thing.
18:01Oh, goodness.
18:01And it has been my interest to study.
18:03Oh, my goodness.
18:04Even, you know, at my stage, there is still a lot to study about the brain.
18:08It's such a mysterious thing.
18:11Amazing.
18:11It's an amazing muscle.
18:14Based on your research, what's the feedback been?
18:17Have you, has that, what are you observing about how seniors are reacting to the performance and the art that's
18:26now part of their lives?
18:27They love it.
18:28They love it.
18:29And it doesn't matter what ethnicity you are.
18:32As I said, you know, you asked me earlier, you know, what about our society?
18:37Each of our, we are so rich, doesn't matter who you are, but we are so rich with our culture.
18:43And they really enjoyed it.
18:44And I can see it's something that is, even if somebody is so reserved, but, you know, slowly they get
18:51to be engaged in what they're doing.
18:54And simple movement.
18:57And I guess with, you know, with nice music and everything, to answer your question, I see a remarkable result.
19:09And we have analysed some preliminary results.
19:12And I'm happy to share that it's shown quite positive results.
19:16It's joy, isn't it?
19:18It's joy in the movement and the music and in the, I guess, there's an element of joy that really
19:25does change your brain chemistry somehow.
19:29Absolutely.
19:29Do you think that sometimes these novel approaches of using art and creativity as part of dementia care, is that
19:39seen as, if I may use, quote-unquote, like soft approach, like an alternative approach?
19:46Have you come across that perception in your work?
19:50I don't know whether this really answers your question or not, but I've been in this business, I mean, take
19:56away the time that I was doing my studies, like more than 30 years.
20:00But, not cognitive psychology specifically, but psychology, I've always viewed it as, you know, when you look at carrot and
20:09stick?
20:10So, I've always viewed it as, whether people agree with me or not, those other psychologists, but I've always viewed
20:17it more towards the carrot side, the soft.
20:21But, it doesn't mean that we're not serious and firm about it.
20:30But, rather than using the word soft, I would say, I would replace that with a word of a more
20:40human-based, a more human-centered kind of interventions in the context of elderly care and, of course, the dementia,
20:50cognitive decline, you know, care setting.
20:54So, yeah, I would say, not softer, but more human-based.
20:58Well, the hope is that more and more people expand their perception of what elder care is, dementia care is,
21:07right, beyond just the physical and clinical care.
21:12What are your hopes, Rosaini, if I may ask you, when you, you know, think about what you want Malaysia's
21:22social safety net to look like for elders and for people going through dementia and cognitive decline,
21:31what would you like us, or policymakers, to prioritize in terms of the people, not just the people going through
21:41dementia, but also the caretakers and everyone, young and old, who may think about their cognitive health and want to
21:50preserve it as much as possible?
21:52Yeah, what I would like to say is that, yes, we're not putting aside medical.
22:00So, I want to make it clear that medical is, is, this is a must.
22:05Yes.
22:05We can't, you know, avoid that.
22:06Not putting that to the side, yes.
22:09But, using psychology, in this case, more of creative way, arts-based, is, is really a holistic approach.
22:19And, you know, when, when people suffer from cognitive impairment, it's not just, for example, memory changes, but it's not
22:31just that.
22:32What change is their identity, their connectedness, their relationships, right?
22:38So, all this change together with, you know, the physical changing of brain, brain, you know, brain structure and all
22:50that.
22:51But, what I hope people will realise is that, it doesn't mean they lose everything.
22:58So, basically, what I want to say is that, as memory changes, right, but the brain is still seeking meaning
23:09and connection.
23:10So, what we can, what can we do?
23:13We can, well, through psychology, through art-based, what we can do is we can help these older people, okay,
23:24as they suffer that, but still continue to live with dignity, with purpose and hope.
23:32That's my hope.
23:33Yeah, that's wonderful.
23:35If you don't mind me asking a more personal question, because you have personal experience being a caretaker yourself, and
23:42coupled with your professional experience being a cognitive health researcher,
23:48do you have any, I guess the word would be advice, or I get words of encouragement for anyone who
23:55may be in that situation, who may find themselves a caretaker at the moment?
24:01Do you have anything you'd like to say to our audience?
24:03What I would like to say to everyone is that, no doubt it takes patience, but sometimes we mix up
24:13between the burden and the resilience.
24:17But with good social support, community engagement, and taking care, as a carer, your own mental health is, to me,
24:30the most important thing.
24:32And we can, you know, try to make life better for the patient and for ourselves.
24:37Definitely.
24:37And, you know, it's part of the community, right?
24:40It's all our responsibility to support each other.
24:43Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing some of your work with me.
24:47I appreciate your time.
24:48Thank you so much, and it has been an honour.
24:50Thank you so much.
24:51That's all the time we have for you on this episode of The Future's Female.
24:54I'm Melissa Idris, signing off for the evening.
24:56Thank you so much for watching, and good night.
25:13Thank you so much.
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