- 8 hours ago
- #thefutureisfemale
What keeps someone fighting for environmental justice after more than 40 years? On this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale Melisa Idris speaks with Meena Raman, President of Sahabat Alam Malaysia. A fierce social justice and environmental advocate, Meena has become a prominent Global South voice in international climate negotiations through Sahabat Alam Malaysia and the Third World Network and Consumers Association Penang.
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00:10hello and good evening i'm melissa idris welcome to the future is female this is the show where we
00:16find the extraordinary in every woman i am so delighted to introduce my guest today a long time
00:22friend of estro awani mina rahman who is the president of sahabat alam malaysia mina is one
00:28of our country's fiercest and tireless environmental advocates and social justice advocates she has
00:36become a prominent global south voice in international climate negotiations through her
00:41association with sahabat alam malaysia and the third world network as well as the consumer
00:46association of kenang mina welcome to the show it's good to have you in the studio with me we only
00:51ever do our online conversations don't we yeah lovely to be here melissa okay so let's get to
00:57know you a little bit so you've spent some time decades in fact if i may say fighting for social
01:02and environmental issues talk to me mina about when you decided that this was going to be your
01:10calling because you're trained as a lawyer you're legally trained you could have very easily gone
01:14into corporate law why did you decide that this was what you wanted to dedicate your life to do
01:19i think you're right melissa i mean it is a calling my association actually was through the consumers
01:24association of pinning because as a young student um i don't know how many people know about ton haji
01:32sulaiman abdullah one of the prominent um public interest he used to be with cap he was at that time
01:40teaching in the faculty of law actually it was through the president of cap sm muhammad idris and there's
01:47also the famous martin core um who was is the uh cambridge trained economist who was working for cap
01:54so both of them actually did said that you know we have to go to the law schools or and
02:00uh knock on the
02:01doors and then you know try to get students excited about um the issues of society and so haji sulaiman
02:10was teaching there at that time and then he introduced us to a course called consumer
02:15and the law that that was followed up with um environment and the law and later on the faculty
02:22introduced what was called law and society so many of us were inspired by those courses we used to come
02:30to cap as we call it and then sabat ala malaysia as well exposed on the ground you know young
02:37lawyers
02:37as young lawyers um budding budding yeah i mean we we actually um were not so clear about what to
02:45do
02:45in life so you just study the law but i think it really made a difference in my own life
02:52and a few
02:53of us like chiyokling the a whom you know who is the executive director of third world network my
02:59course made as well by the way the former chief justice tanko maimun was also in our law class
03:05amazing yeah yeah and even the yeah yeah yeah and even the um current um minister of defense
03:12khalid nordin also from our class of 82 what a class of remarkable women i was i must be a
03:20fly on
03:21the wall that reunion mina so so has being uh being trained as a lawyer has that given you a
03:27different
03:28lens because sometimes when we think about um advocacy and activism law law doesn't necessarily
03:35come to mind so you take a different approach you look at how we can reform the law to protect
03:40better
03:40to better protect society and the environment absolutely i mean i think the first lesson was
03:46when we had local communities you know like fishing communities or farming communities look at our face
03:52and say you are lawyers can you help us and then like you know it blew my mind can we
03:57actually um
03:59help them and then we began to see this was like in the early 80s so you know we hear
04:05about development
04:06we thought that all development is good you know and then lawyers don't necessarily understand economics or
04:12how things work in society so we saw the other side of development i saw um farmers being displaced for
04:19making way for massive housing projects fishing communities being um displaced from the coast
04:25for making way for uh you know mega hotels indigenous peoples being thrown out of their lands because
04:33logging companies went in destroy the forest so there was another group of of of communities who were
04:40impacted but what what we saw were the adverse impact of environment and then when we of development
04:48sorry and then when we started looking and investigating and then one of our famous cases
04:52the first age the environmental case asian rare earth in bukit-mera it really opened my eyes because
04:59there was this big company mitsubishi chemicals of japan joint venture with a company in ipo this
05:06community you know there was a chinese new village 10 000 people living there just across the the road was
05:12this
05:12rare earth um company plant exposing people to radioactive waste you said it opened your eyes
05:20in what way what it opened my eyes because i began to see the impact of i mean how can
05:25you just have a
05:27a radioactive toxic waste um plant the plant is now closed because we took them to court and all that
05:33you know and then i saw children being exposed to high lead levels i saw mothers who were miscarrying babies
05:40higher than national average i saw children i mean i visited them in the hospital and they were
05:47suffering from leukemia so i where i saw all that and yeah so so that really really opened my eyes
05:54have you heard me now i've heard people describe you as malaysia's erin brokovich have you heard that
06:00someone well i think i probably coined it because yeah um because you know somebody was asking about this
06:07case and you know because it got international attention yes um we had uh lawyers from from japan
06:14because this was a japanese investment and they came japanese lawyers japanese parliamentarians because
06:20the issue was how can japan this technology was not allowed in japan they could come to malaysia
06:25how is what's not allowed in japan be allowed here so we had fantastic journalists who were putting this
06:31issue out we had lawyers from uh the u.s there's a for those lawyers public interest lawyers who are
06:40interested
06:40there's an alliance called environmental law alliance worldwide and they are scientific lawyers
06:46a legal group who help young lawyers you know with science and information reviewing environmental impact
06:53assessments because as you know you're fighting big corporations yes and big corporations have all the money in the world
06:59to
06:59hire experts and small people like us particularly with ngos is we don't have the big backup so
07:06these these uh these alliances actually opened up international links to um um you know activism around the world
07:16and so that was that was fascinating so but to explain uh this to people i said yeah this is
07:23like erin brokovich
07:24who went on the ground and who had to do this and no it's great it's a great um and
07:29immediately i think
07:30people understand the kind of david versus goliath exactly fight how long did that case take you i think
07:37people underestimate just how long a legal case can take out and how much endurance and resilience
07:42it requires especially if you're doing it for you know an ngo and you're fighting a public interest case
07:47yeah i think the point the point is this why do we do because we are passionate about it it's
07:52a kind of a calling
07:53and so when you when your eyes are open and then you know your your you begin to see things
07:58and so then
08:00what was really interesting was the fact that the people were fascinating they were really in the front lines
08:06i mean you had chakway teow sellers people making um little hawkers who were making little shoes
08:14because it was a thriving community the leader of this community was still around and they know he
08:20would be one of those who is a who's a pork seller you know all kinds of ordinary people and
08:26when they
08:27understood that they were being exposed to radiation contamination and they saw what was happening
08:34you would be amazed because in their community they would have an exhibition what is alpha what is
08:40beta what is gamma what does this they were they were fascinated they got educated they got educated
08:46and once they knew i mean there was no stopping them it was a vibrant community and so that really
08:53inspires us to keep at it you know so it took 10 years it took 10 years the power of
08:57the collective
08:58when communities come together you can really fight off the exactly the big baddies um coming back to
09:05something you said a bit earlier about you looking at how not all development is good or looking at the
09:12impact of development on ordinary people when someone says you know it's either economic development or
09:20environment versus economic progress right when we have that distinction what's your response this
09:25it often they say critics sometimes say oh environmental groups they always oppose
09:30progress they they only want you know um going back to what we were many many decades ago how do
09:38you
09:39how do you respond to that i think the these are people who have not read enough or know what's
09:45happening on the ground because right now the the everywhere people are talking about beyond gdp in the um in
09:52the un
09:52for instance because so many years of so-called economic you know the same kind of economic model
09:59you know you'll trickle down your developers worry about the environment later all of this has shown
10:05that there's rising inequality that you have 10 of the world having access to about um you know large
10:12amounts of wealth the large numbers of people who are poor and then these are in the front lines of
10:17a lot
10:18of this and even in this country you see that happening our fishing communities who are thrown
10:22out of you know their fishing areas farmers who are now exposed to climate change i mean you can talk
10:30about economics but if you don't build in sustainability if you don't build in that you know you can't always
10:38just go on this part like right now i must say the big fight over data centers uh-huh yeah
10:43so you see
10:44this is not just in this country alone you have huge movements even in the u.s yeah yeah all
10:50world
10:50over so communities are beginning to find that you know you have suddenly overnight you have um
10:56construction of a data center and then the the worry about the use of energy water so we're not thinking
11:02of sustainability so the issue really is yes it's important to have economic growth but what kind of
11:10economic growth okay so are we getting better at asking that question here in malaysia are we
11:15getting better asking the question yes development but at what cost i think more and more people are
11:20asking that question i think particularly the young oh um you know because i do meet a lot of
11:26climate activists or even if you look at the the struggles on the ground in relation to agroecology
11:32i mean this is something where if you see in penang for instance loads of people excited about
11:37farming in their communities schools who are interested in children working with soil with
11:42earthworms with you know the connection of what how the environment is in real life so it's not
11:49something far away it's here i think the you see the impacts already in terms of the heat wave the
11:56droughts the fires so people are beginning to say what can i do so you know it's not just about
12:01recycling
12:02and and reusing but it's much more about should i use public transport should i use private transport
12:08is that good is that bad so much more engagement in terms of understanding that you cannot just look
12:15at economics with a with a with a blinded uh you know look but you really need to see the
12:22overall so
12:23i think that what's clear if you look at the world over now this like i said people are talking
12:27about
12:27beyond gdp that growth that all costs somebody is paying the price and who is paying that price
12:34so we see it we see it everywhere yeah the last time i think the who was paying the price
12:39was
12:39slightly more opaque was more invisible exactly now we're seeing exactly the price what i admire
12:45about one of the things i admire about you mina is that you are in touch with people on the
12:50ground
12:50so the farmers the fisher folk the indigenous communities but you also have a seat at the table at the
12:55highest climate negotiations you are you know you spent years at u.n climate negotiations sitting in
13:02those rooms mina what has frustrated you the most about the way climate negotiations happen well i think
13:11you are right i work at many levels and one of the exciting things is that you're in a room
13:17where you
13:17see the united states at that time now they are out of the talks and you have the european union
13:22now and
13:22all the big players and then you have china on one side india on the other side um you have
13:27other
13:28developing countries and we are working with those developing countries okay um and and we actually
13:33assist in terms of the negotiating capacity looking at the issues not only from the lens of climate
13:41justice campaigners but also for the global south um you know the policy makers themselves are they um
13:47because most of the time some delegations who come who are very small and they don't know the history
13:53whereas we have been there for long what's the meaning of common but differentiated responsibility
13:57what is historical emissions um how do you look at climate finance i mean these are
14:03all um very exciting um you know areas to be in because climate change i believe is really an
14:11existential issue yes and working right at the level of policy and actually developing countries
14:17come to us and they ask us can you tell us what this is can you tell us what is
14:22that
14:22so you're working with with like-minded countries and then even in the negotiations in the run-up to the
14:28paris agreement we were working with at that time malaysia was in the like-minded developing countries
14:34if it was not for the like-minded developing countries which we helped form together with our
14:39malaysian negotiators we would not have had a paris agreement which is so balanced and then also
14:46there was a big fight to set up a new fund as an alternative to the world bank so we
14:51have the green
14:51climate fund which is now in songdo and then the latest fight was on the fund on loss and damage
14:57responding to loss and damage all of this was made possible for a lot of work together with developing
15:04countries and with civil society uh in those spaces both global north and south and also
15:11being relevant to your work and the ground here in malaysia right well do you think do you ever worry
15:18mina that um climate discussions have become too technical so you know when you talked about um
15:25carbon markets and and um you know green financing and the like does that does that become too
15:32technical and then we forget the people who are living through the consequences the people on the
15:37ground the fisher for the farmers and the ones the people that you speak to uh directly right yes i
15:42well if you are in those spaces and you remain in those spaces without being connected on the ground
15:47it can be a disconnect but we bring it back to the real life situation for instance at the moment
15:53we all
15:54know that our temperature temperature rising you know in the paris agreement we say we should pursue
16:00to limiting temperature rise to 1.5 degrees celsius compared to pre-industrial levels we are crossing
16:06we are crossing and then now you're feeling the you know the el nino has exacerbated it so we are
16:12feeling the heat literally we are feeling the the the drought and so for us adaptation is absolutely key
16:20and i have i am of the view and even loss and damage because adaptation you can adapt only so
16:26much
16:26yes and then you are in the realm of loss and damage like pakistan one third of the economy just
16:31wiped out because of of of the massive rains that happened when when we often use the term climate
16:39justice right maybe you can um tell us what that means what does climate justice mean for you and me
16:46for for malaysians not just malaysia that even even the global south right developing countries we were
16:51not the history we were not the historical emitters the ritual became rich because they had no bar on
17:00what they could do with fossil fuel so they just historically industrialized freehand and today we
17:06are told that you can't do the same thing you can't because the temperatures are rising the carbon dioxide
17:11is increasing but the impacts are being felt the historical emissions of the global north is responsible
17:18for much of the emissions today and what and that's the sea level rise the heat waves the droughts
17:25the impact and we're going to see this much much more so for ordinary malaysians what can we do so
17:30the first thing is our government needs to step up in terms of adaptation they're doing a lot on
17:36emission reductions and so they're a lot of focus do you disagree with that focus i disagree i mean
17:42mitigation is important we call it emissions reductions are important but more important
17:46important is actually um beginning to be prepared for your adaptation what about our farming communities
17:54are we resilient enough tomorrow if you have a and already but we don't have to go tomorrow even now
17:59today yeah today you look at the muda area and the and and are we responding enough are we prepared
18:06enough are we doing enough on agriculture and food security for our people and look at the um sea level
18:13rise you know once there is the sea level rise you will have lots of our coastal communities gone many
18:19of our penang island you know for for that matter even a lot of coastal communities what will happen to
18:26them we are not this is not being discussed enough the government is at the moment developing the national
18:32adaptation plan but we are not talking to people we are not on the ground talking to people we have
18:38not
18:38uh consulted with farmers fisher folk indigenous peoples so there's so much to do and then like i said the
18:46loss and damage um the um issue now the trillions of dollars that we need in terms of the energy
18:54transition and then you have to face adaptation the world bank has said that you know we will probably
19:00have about three trillion dollars that is needed trillion three trillion in terms of i can't even
19:06comprehend what how much exactly exactly with the energy with the with the um adaptation and then you
19:14know even to deal with loss and damage so it's huge amount of resources for developing countries like
19:18like us and not only us but you know we are luckier we have a bit more richer compare that
19:24to countries who
19:25are in debt who have no money even to um you know they have to service their debt a lot
19:31of
19:31african countries countries in um many parts of even asia the low-income country so in a way i think
19:38um
19:38until and unless our politicians in this country begin to really understand that is not enough to just look at
19:47your
19:47gdp and your um you know growth at all costs but you look at what costs who's not only the
19:55poor going to be paying the
19:55price your economy is going to pay the price because look at pakistan like i said one third of the
20:01economy wiped out overnight just because of massive intense rains so are we ready i don't think we are
20:08does that scare you me now how do you how do you working in this space not get discouraged not
20:15lose hope
20:16not because because working as a climate um for for working towards climate justice can feel sometimes
20:24like pushing a boulder uphill how do you stay in that space where you keep fighting i think we well
20:32first of all you you know your heart it has to be in the right place and then um secondly
20:39of course i
20:40think um it's the right thing to do okay um and but we also see a lot of of of
20:46of alternate not
20:47alternatives a lot of solutions on the ground right you know like in the case of indigenous peoples who
20:53are doing community forestry they are planting they are doing agroecology they have regenerated
21:01their territories they are defending and fighting for protection of their systems then you look at
21:07farmers who are doing the same you look at the fisher folk who are on the front line of mangrove
21:13regeneration wetlands protection you know there's a lot of ecosystem based approaches that many
21:19ngos in this country have been involved with over a long time and these are already solutions what we
21:26had said many years ago are now becoming the real kinds of solutions that governments can look at
21:31and so i do think that there's a fantastic role for for the solutions that we want to see and
21:37so
21:39um you know never lose hope because uh but i do want to say that you know at the end
21:46of the day
21:46after i only have so many years left i want to hope that you want to inspire a lot more
21:51young people
21:52you say you work with a lot of young climate activists right what are they teaching you about
21:58how they view um this fight this year they all come to us and say you know what can we
22:04do how can we do
22:06this better what ideas do you have thank you for inspiring us i mean that gives us a lot of
22:11um hope
22:12right but i do think that um this is really a frontline battle i mean this is a long well
22:19it's immediate
22:20we are seeing it now but i i one of the things that i always say is that you either
22:26part of the problem
22:27or part of the solution and if i go back to sleep with my heart very um happy that i'm
22:35part of that
22:36solution so it may not be immediate but we do see changes in people's lives for instance that asian
22:41rare earth community i talked about that community managed to kick the biggest um you know company out
22:47of this country and they were fascinating and then you know many indigenous communities who are defending
22:52their forests and so on fascinating you have battles that you lose you have cases that you win and then
22:59you do also have communities living the the the fights and so yeah it's a it's it's an exciting arena
23:07so so make sure not to take your eye off the wins right the the solutions that are happening the
23:14the
23:14cooperation that's happening i love that story about um like-minded countries working together smaller
23:20exactly exactly banding exactly and coming up with you know the paris agreement right so i i love that
23:27story do you have a message for our audience tonight just when we think about how we what what role
23:34we
23:34have to play in our fight against climate change in our fight to maybe make things a little bit fairer
23:40around the collect around climate justice um and you know what what role we can play when we feel tired
23:47and
23:47hopeless is there advice you would give that maybe not you know obvious to to everyone but you think
23:55okay this is what has kept me going and i'll want to share that well i mean your story your
24:01theme is about
24:02women right yeah in the front i think um one of the experiences that i have is that women really
24:09is not
24:10not just cliche but when the health of their children are impacted they move um you know your family your
24:18well-being of your family and so a lot of this is really connected to food your consumption you
24:25know you know i and uh when food prices go up what do you do now that you have the
24:31problem of the
24:32trades of hormones and energy prices are up and how do you thank god we are protected in a lot
24:38of
24:38ways but i think the point i'm making is that um health and activism uh are really the front line
24:46and environmental activism when they see the connection yeah like a lot of our families for
24:51instance um you have cancer on the rise and from the consumers association of penang we've always been
24:58talking about look at how food is being produced and you have a lot of chemicals there plastics is
25:04the other one microplastics everywhere so you find that everything's connected everything is connected
25:10so if that is the case then women can do tons your children your family and i don't want to
25:17stereotype to
25:17say women belong in the kitchen no that's not what i'm saying i'm saying that the passion in terms of
25:23all the communities that we work with the women were in the front when when when they're
25:27aware when they yeah we will fight we will fight because it's it's real so i do think that um
25:33that that seeing the connection and doing something about it i think is the doing that
25:39it's important like today if i have to choose between uh driving a car and using the lrt if i
25:46i should be
25:48doing using the lrt and then demanding you see also politicians you know they come once in five
25:55years we're all in election mood are they aware of the kind of issues that we are battling for
26:00in terms of what are they doing for us so we have to we have to be very active citizens
26:05in in
26:06in questioning so that we impact policy making we impact the politics and we bring the change that
26:12we want to we want to see definitely so i think we need to be active yeah mina you're such
26:19an inspiration
26:19thank you so much for coming here on the show and sharing your story with us it's been such a
26:24joy
26:24to talk to you today that's all the time we have for you on this episode of the future is
26:29female i'm
26:29melissa idris signing out for the evening thank you so much for watching and good night
26:34you
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