- 7 months ago
- #thefutureisfemale
With the next general election expected by 2027, civil society groups are launching Projek30%—a campaign calling on all political parties to field at least 30% women candidates, and to back it up with legislation. Malaysia ranks second last in ASEAN for women’s political empowerment. Can we fix that with law—or is the real barrier political will? On this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale Melisa Idris speaks with Maria Chin, Adviser of the NGO, Martabat PJ, and Gopal Papachan, Executive Director of EMPOWER.
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00:00Hello and good evening. Welcome to The Future is Female. This is the show where we find the
00:15extraordinary in every woman. Now with the next general election expected by 2027, civil society
00:23groups are launching Project 30%, a campaign that's calling on political parties to feel
00:29at least 30% of women candidates and to back it up with legislation. So Malaysia as we know ranks
00:38last in ASEAN for women's political empowerment. The question is can we fix this either through law
00:45or a change in political commitment or do we lack the political will for this? Joining me on the show
00:55to discuss this but I'm delighted to introduce my guest today Maria Chin who is the advisor of
00:59the NGO Martabat PJ and Gopal Papachand who is the executive director of the women's rights group
01:06Empower. Welcome to the show both of you. Thank you so much for being on the show. I want to start
01:12with a big picture about Project 30%. This campaign, why is it important? Why are you pushing for it
01:20now? Maria, if I may begin with you? Okay, sure. Thank you very much. I guess it's important at this
01:28juncture simply because this has been a long-standing issue. We need more voices and particularly the election
01:37of PKR. I think that we need the critical mass in the parliament in order that women gender-sensitive
01:49issues get touched on and brought up as a national agenda. And we are not talking in this project 30% is not
01:59talking about no merits. We are talking about women who have the capacity, the skill, the knowledge
02:06to do it. And there has been a lot of training and we have plenty of women in line, standing in line to
02:13actually take up that leadership. But why do we want women in parliament? It is because we are talking about
02:21about almost 50% of the population needs, which is underrepresented, not talked about like sexual
02:30reproductive health and rights, about their low wages, about their job position, about informal sector.
02:4041% of our women are in the informal sector. And that is something that we have to worry about.
02:47We have to worry because these women are unprotected. There are no EPF, SOXO and all the statutory
02:56benefits. And it's about time that we actually look into their needs so that we can build an economy
03:03that is more resilient. For sure. Thank you, Maria. Gopal, this question of increasing women's
03:10representation in politics in office has been long standing. Maria mentioned that. What makes
03:18Project 30% different? Why are you pushing for it now in the lead up to GE 16?
03:25Well, again, thank you. Thank you for having us, Melissa. And thank you to Esther Awani in highlighting
03:32our project. Why now? I think because it's urgent. We are not heading in the right direction. As Maria said,
03:43women and girls make up 50% of the population. And women and girls are everywhere in sports, in culture,
03:50in science, in education, and so on. But in politics, where it matters, the power imbalance is quite dismal.
04:02Women make up 13.5% of parliamentarians. 12.2% of women are in state assemblies. Less than 20% are
04:13in local councils. Wow. And when you look at our commitment made to the 1995 Beijing conference of
04:21at least 30%, that was in 1995. This is 2025. It's 30 years down the road. So really, if not now, when?
04:30And it's not as if this is new. We are standing on the shoulders of civil society that have struggled to
04:35do this going forward. But many of them are tired and become exhausted. And what we did is basically
04:43folks, let's regroup. So last year, we pulled together a bunch of civil society from JAG, from Bursae,
04:51from CSO Platform for Reform, had a conference on the 23rd of November, and then launched that. So now,
04:58we are saying to the political parties, look, if the next election is G16, you know, 2027, 2028,
05:06you have time, start working at it now. Okay, it's not such a great push to have from 13.5% to at
05:14least 30%. That's a flaw, by the way. Yeah. So, so really, and then if you look at our, our global
05:21standing, our, our global position, you said about our position in ASEAN. It's dismal, isn't it?
05:26It's quite dismal. It's embarrassing. We're hosting the, we're hosting the ASEAN Summit.
05:31Exactly. And so, you know, in the, in the global context, we are 114 out of 146 nations. So we're in
05:40the bottom quartile. We are doing well in three out of the four measures. Okay. The three, the three
05:47measures we're doing well is education, health and economic participation. But in, in political
05:52participation, we are 134 out of 146 countries. Gosh. So we are 13 places from the bottom. I mean,
06:01if you say we are second last in ASEAN, we are 13 places from the bottom globally. So we have to do
06:08something now. It's urgent. Yeah. So I sense your urgency and what I, what I'm also getting from this
06:14campaign in terms of the frustration over the lack of progress is that you're pushing for a legislated
06:20quota. So it's no, no longer just getting the commitments from the political parties that
06:25cakap is not good enough anymore, right? You want kind of, uh, you want real legislative change.
06:30Talk to me a little bit about why you're going beyond voluntary commitments and pushing for
06:36a legislated quota. It seems like a big radical step, but is it really? Um, Gopal? Okay. Well,
06:44um, the answer is sort of like laying the way you, you crafted your question. It's 30 years down the
06:50road. We've had, we've had the opportunity given to the political parties to do something. They have
06:56tried. Okay. Uh, so the good and great, uh, late, uh, Badawi put in place some policies in 2004, put it
07:05into the ninth Malaysia plan, uh, and then had a 2009 plant in that kan wanita, uh, pushing for, uh, 30%
07:13in parliament, uh, both houses, and then in the state assemblies as well. So, but it was all based on,
07:19on voluntary, uh, you know, stepping up, uh, by the political parties and they haven't stepped up.
07:25They lack the political will, uh, to, to make that change. All right. Uh, so, uh, with the PH, uh,
07:32manifesto in 2020, 2017, they said they would, uh, you know, uh, push for that 30%. However,
07:39here we are with 13 and a half percent in, uh, in, um, you know, 2025. In fact, right after the
07:47election in 2018, it was close to 15%. So we dropped down a notch. And if we are, if we are heading in
07:54that direction, it's the wrong direction to be heading in. So we need legislation and it's not new.
08:00More than 60 countries around the world have done this. Six zero. Six zero. More than 60 countries
08:07around the world have done this. Okay. Let me give you some examples. Mexico put in a parity law in
08:142014. By 2018, they were between 40 to 50% in both houses. Costa Rica, all right, is 19 places in the
08:25global gender gap index. They have got something like 40 to 50% also. South Africa does not have
08:32the law, but has a voluntary, uh, uh, mechanism, but they drove it and they pushed it. They are 18 places
08:39in the global gender gap index. Let me bring it to, to our neighborhood, Timor Leste. Timor Leste,
08:46a brand new country, put in a 30% law and they have 33.6% women in their parliament. Wow. So yeah,
08:54I mean, these countries are similarly tiered development to Malaysia, middle income countries.
09:00It can be done for them. Why not for us? Maria, can I ask you why, uh, uh, the two thirds gender rule
09:08instead of a 30% quota? I mean, is there a reason why the, the idea is to have a max cap instead of a
09:18straightforward 30% minimum flow? I think, um, well, I'm not sure whether we are capping at two
09:26thirds. Okay. So, so any gender, right? So for instance, it will be a cap of two thirds for any
09:31gender. So it's equal on both sides. At least, uh, I think we want at least 30%. Yeah, at least.
09:39Why is because of the critical mass that we are talking about. And, um, we've been talking about
09:45political will for the past 30 years. So I think that, you know, um, this is actually setting the
09:52structure, the procedure, and also the commitment, uh, of, uh, legislators to say that, you know,
09:59it's not about political will now, you just have to do it. Okay. Yeah. And, and I think that legislation
10:06will make it happen because if you look at the countries that Gopal was, is talking about,
10:11they do have legislation and it kind of speed up the, the matter. Yeah. And we are talking about
10:18women who have the capabilities, who are able to actually bring, um, policies, uh, laws into the
10:28parliament and will give a better perspective. Okay. Well, if I may use a kind of a recent example,
10:35you mentioned the PKR elections earlier, um, neural is us recent win as PKR number two. I want to use
10:42that as maybe, uh, an example of putting into context what we're discussing today. Her recent
10:48win was met with Napa baby accusations. It was met with, uh, concerns over creating this political
10:55dynasty. I think some people said, well, you know, she should really wait her turn after her father
10:59steps down. All of that discourse, Maria, what did it reveal to you about how Malaysia, the public,
11:08views women in politics? I guess, um, Nuru Ziza's, uh, example actually reflects the general public is
11:18that women need to wait, wait your turn, wait your turn. Yeah. Um, but you know, if you look at the
11:26education system now, yeah, the participation of women is much higher. Yeah. We have already progressed,
11:33but the, the country has not progressed together with the women. We have progressed
11:38very well in the primary school, secondary school, tertiary. Um, if you look at some of the, um,
11:45even male dominated, um, uh, jobs and all that women are there. So we have the, uh, the women who will
11:54be able to take over. So it's no longer waiting. It is actually giving women the opportunity. I'm not
12:02saying that the men cannot do, but I think that, um, the women's perspective is lacking in the
12:09legislation. Um, that's why we take like domestic violence. Yeah. We talk about more than 10 years.
12:17Laws related to rape, eight years. Um, sexual harassment, a whole 20 years before we got the
12:24sexual harassment act. So if the women are not there, you know, at the right place to push for this
12:31laws, it won't happen. Um, and we'll be, and we cannot be waiting for another 30 years. And if the
12:38global, um, statistic is correct, we have to wait for another 300 years. So enough of waiting, we just
12:47have to say that, you know, you have to just do it. Yeah. And try it. If, um, it's not successful,
12:52you can always vote them out. Well, the reason I ask is sometimes there is, um, a dichotomy or a
12:59tension between what we say we want. We want more women in politics. We want more women representation.
13:06And then when women actually run, we don't support it or we pull them down and we tear them down.
13:12And I want to ask you about this sometimes contradictory public discourse with the support
13:19for gender equality. Gopal, how do you make sense of what's happening? Do we want women to run for
13:26office, but only the right kind of women, the women who meet our checklist of ideals in our head?
13:33Sure. Sure. I mean, I think that whole, um, that whole discourse is necessary. See, because, uh, we can't
13:40be talking at both ends of our, of our mouth, right? Wanting women. And then on the other hand, when women of
13:46our substance and capability actually come up, we then sort of, uh, you know, uh, you know,
13:52after all kinds of negative chatter and even dog whistles. Um, so really it, it underlines a deep
13:59patriarchal, uh, vein in our society. And that discussion is necessary to make that vein, um, transparent,
14:09open, uh, so we can talk about, uh, what, uh, society regards as gender stereotypes and, and how it
14:18has kind of sort of damaged or, or put, uh, challenges and unnecessary challenges and hurdles
14:24in front of women and girls to progress as equal citizens in this country. So really, uh, I mean,
14:30if you look at, um, you know, labor force participation rate, women, uh, are at 52%, men are at 86%.
14:38All the things that Maria said about education, right? Women outnumber them in universities or even
14:43in secondary schools, uh, where are they going? If their labor force participation rate is only at 52%.
14:49So really we are undercutting our own selves, uh, with respect to the potential women have
14:56in the economy as, as productive citizens, right? Um, women check out of the, of the labor force
15:03because, you know, they want to care for their families and the families, you know, need child
15:07support. Child support is not available in affordable and competent places. So how is this
15:12going to happen? Uh, and, and the gender stereotyping always, uh, you know, puts the load on women to
15:19take care of the child, not only take care of the child, take care of the parents, take care of aging
15:23parents, et cetera. So women basically effectively reproduce a masculinized economy for free.
15:31Wow. All that unpaid labor. Yes. Okay. And, and, and here we are asking for at least 30%. And,
15:40you know, uh, you know, the, the, the sort of like fangs come out. Yeah. What makes men think that,
15:46you know, if they are 50%, they're entitled to 80% of the seats. Why isn't that a conversation?
15:52Okay. Yeah. Some of the political parties have responded to that saying, hey, there is no demand
16:00for women candidates. Voters aren't voting them in. How do we make sense of this supply versus demand
16:08argument if Malaysian voters are ready to support more women candidates?
16:14I wouldn't buy that. But have you heard political parties say that? Yes, of course.
16:19They always field women in the unwinnable seats as a token candidate. Yeah. If they are not given
16:25the opportunity, of course, you don't have many to choose from, right? So, uh, I feel that, you know,
16:31um, there has to be some kind of assessment of the candidates regardless of gender so that everyone has
16:39an equal opportunity. But at the present moment, who makes the decision within the party? Um,
16:46I'm afraid it's mainly the men who are actually sitting up there, uh, making decisions on who to
16:53actually be more capable and usually they are the men. So I think that, um, if you were to put women
17:05and it can actually start from local council right up to the top, um, when you have those kind of
17:14opportunities, women will show everyone that we can actually do it. See, uh, if you look at the women
17:23in parliament, they are not low performers. Yeah. Yeah. They are pretty good so far. Of course,
17:29you can, um, comment on some of the policies and all that, but they are vocal and they are dedicated.
17:36And, but they are not enough. We went backwards. 2018, we had 32 women there. Now we are 20 women.
17:45So we are going backwards instead of going forward in terms of the number of women MPs
17:50in parliament. And that's why it takes so long for, we, we have actually, um, we meaning the civil
17:57society has drafted a gender equality act, but where is it now? Yeah. Yeah. So it's five years,
18:04six years down the road. And does that mean we have to wait for another 10 years before the
18:09gender equality act actually happens? And there isn't that so that many MPs supporting gender
18:17equality act for the women. Oh, why, why is this not a bipartisan gender neutral, um, issue to support?
18:27I guess it's, um, the fear that, you know, um, of losing the power. Okay. Okay. And I think that
18:36that is a misconception that gender equality means, uh, you know, more women coming in to, uh, take, uh,
18:43over the places, but it's not, it is actually for everybody. And it's not just about women and giving
18:49only women. And, and therefore there is also this, uh, misperception that if we give, uh, a gender
18:57equality is all about women and it's bias and, uh, and, and things like that. But it's not, we are
19:04talking about men and women to be given a fair opportunity, a fair opportunity in jobs, in the
19:12digital economy, in the welfare, in the health, even, uh, now we are aging, uh, society and all that.
19:21We, we need to give, um, everyone an opportunity to grow. Wow. Yeah. And, and somebody has to say
19:28all these things. And I think that if we look at the gender equality act, it is actually putting into
19:34place, yeah, what is fair and what is good opportunity, fair opportunity for everyone so that it's not for,
19:43men or women is for the country. Yeah. For the country to actually grow together. So are you
19:50also seeing, because I know Empower has started talking to, uh, political parties. Are you also
19:55seeing this, um, if I may call it pushback or, uh, or misconception that gender equality means
20:03that they're going to lose more power? What are you hearing from them? Are they open to the, the issues
20:10that you bring forth of the, even project 30? I mean, great question. And, and we have started,
20:15um, you know, walking the talk with the political parties. It's a bit difficult to get appointments,
20:20uh, but we've met, uh, four political parties so far. Okay. And all the, uh, soundbites that they give
20:25us has been encouraging, actually. Okay. They, um, they do not, uh, push back on, uh, project 30,
20:32peratus. Uh, they buy into it. Um, the women, you know, uh, buy into it from the get go. Yeah.
20:39Uh, even before we, uh, you don't even have to sell it to them. Uh, they, they express a concern
20:46about male hegemony within the political party and about candidate selection. Okay. Um, so, uh,
20:54so we learned a bunch, uh, one, they're sympathetic with the, uh, with the, uh, project 30. Secondly,
21:02it's about leadership. Really, uh, the parties that have made progress with the 30% and with women,
21:10have leadership that have realized that, you know, they have women that are equal citizens that have
21:17a right to, uh, to stand as much as, uh, as men and are capable and so, uh, foster them. You know,
21:24I would, I would sort of point, uh, to, you know, parties like DAP that have actually made 30% a policy
21:31statement for the next election. PSM has also, uh, you know, come out and supported the campaign.
21:38You know, they are a candidate for IA Kuning, although lost was Bhavani, a woman, right? So, um,
21:45so other parties can step up with respect to exercising that leadership. The women within
21:51their organizations are looking to them for that kind of leadership. Okay. Um, and, and, you know,
21:58you have to ask yourself, you know, um, why, why is civil society talking about this and not the,
22:03the, the, the political parties, all right? Uh, and when we talk to, uh, the women within the
22:10political parties, they said they need our help. Okay. They need an outside force.
22:14They need outside force. They need civil society to beat the drum as it were, uh, to bring this
22:20conversation to, uh, to the head and, and do away with myths like, uh, there is no demand, uh, for,
22:26for women on the, on the ground. That is a myth. I agree. That is a myth, uh, created by the male
22:31stereotype within the, the male dominated, uh, political party, right? And, and many of the women in the,
22:38in the political parties are not visible. They're not visible because a lot of them, uh, are ensconced
22:45within the women's wings. Okay. If you note political parties here do not have a men's wing,
22:53they have a women's wing. Okay. So they only start an afterthought. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, so,
23:00so, you know, you need to ask the question, you know, why is there a women's wing? The, the, uh,
23:05the political parties that do not have a women's wing treat women as if they have equal place on
23:11the table. Muda, PSM, they don't have a women's wing. All right. So, you know, the, the acting
23:18president of Muda is a woman. Okay. So, so really, um, you know, I'm not saying do away with the women's
23:25wing, but, you know, what could start out as a forum for sisterhood, uh, could, could basically
23:32become, you know, um, hard walls from which, yeah, they don't see the rest of the party and the rest
23:38of the party don't see them. It becomes a silo. Yeah. Okay. Well, in the couple of minutes that we
23:42have left, I do want to ask the both of you what your takeaway message is. This is such an important
23:46campaign. I think in the lead up to G16, uh, what would you like political parties and also the voting
23:53public to understand and remember about why this campaign is important? Maria, if I may begin with you.
23:59Um, I think that, um, having the legislation and, um, you know, lobbying the political parties are very
24:06important, but one thing that is much more important is the childcare, you know, um, because if you want
24:14women to go out to work or even get involved in the informal sector and all that, uh, you need to
24:21provide childcare and I mean you meaning the government. Yeah. It, it has to be a government
24:27responsibility, whether it's a community-based childcare where they can actually leave their
24:32children there or, or babies or at the workplace that you need it because, uh, otherwise women will
24:39be stuck, stuck in a house to do the childcare because childcare is very expensive. So if it's, uh,
24:46subsidized or at least it's affordable, I think that more women will actually enter into the workforce
24:53and the political, uh, arena because if you, in fact, um, I, um, I spoke to most of the political
25:01parties, yeah, the women's wing, uh, and they feel that they have a big challenge joining the
25:07political party meetings because it always happened at night and at night is where they have to send
25:14their children to, to sleep, feed them, um, you know, take care of everyone before they could actually
25:23join. And by the time they finish all that, they are, the meeting is already halfway. So they are,
25:30they are not in the decision-making process when you actually, although you, you, um, most of the
25:37political parties say that that's the right time to have the meeting, but you are excluding,
25:41you are excluding, uh, people who can actually give you good ideas, uh, and, and the people who are
25:49being excluded are usually the women. Yeah. So I think that childcare is something that we need to look
25:55at. Um, the other one is really to support women, uh, when there is, um, abuse. We also need to
26:05think about this because, um, um, if you look at, um, the COVID and, uh, and so forth, we have such a high,
26:15um, report on the domestic violence and that is something that actually, um, become a barrier for
26:22some of the women coming out, yeah, to work and also to even be part of the political process. So, um,
26:31basic support, these are actually basic support for women. It's very necessary.
26:36Okay. Thank you, Maria. Gopal, same question to you.
26:38Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So GE 16 is just around the corner. 20, 27, 20, 28. I think we just need
26:46to get cracking. Yeah. Uh, we want to draft the law and we want to, uh, insert that memorandum into
26:52the cabinet and into key stakeholders in, in, uh, in the governing class here for discussion and then for
26:57them to take it up. And then we're also going to be talking to the political parties rather. Uh,
27:04but we want civil society to also get behind us. Uh, we want, uh, civil society organizations and the
27:10public to get behind us. So really, uh, you know, your voice matters. If, uh, if you want to know more
27:17about the campaign, go to empowermalaysia.org, right? Um, and, and you'll find out about project
27:2330. It's really, Melissa is about gender equality. It's about civil and political human rights of
27:31nearly 50% of the population in this country. We cannot call ourselves a democracy if we deny
27:37them those opportunities. So really we are talking about power, rebalancing power in the halls of power
27:43in Malaysia. And, and, uh, we are going to, uh, you know, work pretty hard to get there.
27:49And I think we will. Both of you. Thank you so much for being on the show with me. I appreciate
27:53your time. Thank you. Thank you very much. That's all we have for you on this episode of
27:57The Future is Female. I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching.
28:02Good night.
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