- 2 months ago
- #thefutureisfemale
They’re one of the most successful player–coach duos in women’s sport. Nicol David and Liz Irving rewrote squash history not just with titles and records but with a partnership built on trust, respect, and the mutual drive of two women at the top of their game. On this episode of #TheFutureIsFemale Melisa Idris speaks with former World Squash Champion Datuk Nicol David, founder of Nicol David Organisation, and Liz Irving, professional squash coach.
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00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to The Future is Female. This is the show where
00:15we find the extraordinary in every woman. I'm delighted to introduce my guests today. They are
00:21one of the most successful player coach duos in women's sport. Nicole David and Liz Irving
00:29rewrote squash history, not just with titles and records, but with a partnership built on trust,
00:36respect and mutual drive of two women at the top of their game. So I'm delighted to welcome
00:44Dato' Nicole David, a former world squash champion and founder of Nicole David organization, as well
00:50as Liz Irving, who is a professional squash coach. Welcome to the show, both of you. Thank you so
00:56much for joining me today. I have long wanted to speak to the both of you because many regard you
01:03both as really one of the most successful player coach duos in women's sport. So I wanted to talk
01:09about that. Was it, how rare or significant was it at the time? Maybe you can put it into context for me,
01:16for a woman to be coaching another woman at that highest elite sport level. Nicole, maybe you can
01:24start. Well, it's really rare. Um, for starters, I had a female coach even in my junior years when I
01:31started. So to have a female coach growing up and then my, in my professional career, having Liz to
01:39take me through, it's not very often you see that around and to be that successful as well. So I credit
01:46the, the fact that when you have a female coach, they understand women athletes better because
01:52they've been there before and the experience takes, takes over. So, and then just the bond that we have,
01:59uh, carried through. So you don't see that very often, uh, in, even in squash in particular at the
02:04time, there was none, hardly anyone. Really? And it was just us. And, um, and we, we showed the world
02:11that it's possible and we really made, made a good show. We did. We did. And I mean, look at that
02:18time, there were no female coaches. Yeah. I was the only coach traveling as a coach to a professional
02:24player. So I guess we didn't realize what we were doing at the time, but we kind of organically
02:30kind of grew into it. And the records, I guess, spoke that it was a great partnership. So, so at the
02:37time, there were very few women coaches. Why do you think that was? I think in those day or not,
02:43when I say in those days, it's not that long ago, but yeah, well, it's, yeah, it's getting on now. Oh,
02:48it's about 20 years ago. 20 years ago. Yes. I don't just don't think they were encouraged to be in
02:53that space. I think it was very much a space for men to be coaching in. Um, may I ask how you ended up in
03:02that space? You yourself a professional player? I was, I played professionally for nearly 20 years
03:07and I kind of fell into coaching. And then I was coaching at a big club in the Netherlands in
03:12Amsterdam called squash city, which is a fantastic club. And yeah, I just started coaching one of the
03:18top players in, in the country there. And she went on to be world champion. And at that time I started
03:23having an academy. And then this one came along and, um, came to train for a little bit and we just
03:30clicked and that's kind of how it, it started. Wonderful. So it was never planned. It just,
03:35I think, you know, we kind of found each other and we, we realized that we held the same values and,
03:41you know, and I knew her as a kid, as a, as I was a professional player. So yeah,
03:45it just seemed to be a really nice natural progression. And how long has that, did that
03:50relationship, working relationship last? 16 years. 16 years. So when I moved out of Malaysia,
03:57I was 18 and I went straight to Amsterdam to work with Liz that I was, and up till I,
04:02when I was, I retired. So yeah. Okay. So Liz is the last coach you ever had. Yes,
04:09basically. And the longest. And, um, I, I believe that it was just all about trust in the whole
04:16process. Yeah. From the beginning when I went there, knowing that I needed to really
04:22change and transform my game to match up with the best in the world. Um, and Liz in her side that
04:28she knew how to cope with that top players, like coming at you, the different styles, the techniques,
04:35the tactics that I had to really get ready for and the pressure as well that I was so excited and
04:41motivated to, to take it on. And when I was 18, I was just raring to go. I was just wanting to learn.
04:48And, uh, but it was tough because I had to break a lot of things down and relearn and, and I had to
04:55go two steps back to go forward, you know, but it was worth it because I could see it come to life.
05:01Every time I'm training with Liz, everything seems to work out well. And I know that I was on the right path.
05:06Right. So you mentioned a bit earlier, having a woman as a coach, um, maybe had,
05:13there was an understanding between the two of you that maybe a man might not have. Could you explain,
05:18um, maybe elaborate in what ways did that give you an advantage that having a woman coach will
05:27understand a woman athlete in ways that a man may not? Very simple days when I can just go on
05:34court and I'm just a bit grumpy and I'm not getting my shots right. I'm training and then Liz will just
05:40come up to me and go like, you know, is this the time of the month? Oh, you know, are you feeling
05:46okay? And I think just being a female, you understand women athletes straight away. And she just knows me
05:55the minute I step onto that club, like she knows how I am when I'm, I'm at my lowest. She knows exactly
06:02what to do and how to handle the situation or give me some time to speak to me. And when you,
06:10when you have that perception and that empathy and, and her way of coaching is always nurturing
06:16and encouraging, she's, she's there for you, you know, and that's the, and that's where the female
06:23aspect probably has a bit more empathy, empathy, I think, I think that comes in the mix. I'm not
06:31disregarding men, but it's just more like that we know each other. She's been there on the tour before.
06:37She knows what it's like to be a female athlete on tour competing at the very top. So she's sharing
06:45her experiences with me and I just off, um, uh, here and follow her, her steps along the way.
06:51She has a, you have a lived reality of it. That's right. That's right. And I, you know,
06:55I guess when I was playing, we were just trying to find our way, you know, we didn't have people
06:59guiding us. And so I guess that, you know, that makes you, I guess, quite good in being able to take
07:06that role on as a coach and a mentor and understand the struggles, you know, that, and certainly,
07:12you know, young women heading off overseas on their own, arriving in a foreign country.
07:18And so young, 18 years old is really young. And that, that actually speaks quite, um, speaks volumes
07:25because you were 18, is it when you met? And that was a 16 year working. So you would have grown up
07:32in under Liz's kind of, um, coaching, right? Yes. She started out a bit like a daughter,
07:39and then, you know, the, the relationship grew into this, you know, being very equal with each
07:44other and a real coach mentor relationship. Talk to me about that. How the relationship,
07:50the roles evolved, because I'm sure many people think, oh, you know, um, coach player relationship
07:56is obey and there's a lot of direction. In the 16 years that you were working together and as your
08:03career progressed and as your skills and ability became better, did there, was there any kind of
08:10evolution in the relationship? I think there was evolution in my coaching, which improved our
08:16relationship because here you've got an athlete that is just amazing. Her skill level, her mental
08:24state, everything was, she's like a formula one car. Wow. So, you know, you're dealing with someone that's the
08:31highest. So that's a lot of responsibility. And, you know, some days we'd train together and I'd just
08:36come off the court and think, wow, I really, I learned something there. So it got, I think that
08:41was where the changeover happened. I started to see this athlete evolve with these amazing skill set
08:48and improving as a player, being more than one times world champion, two times, three times, four times.
08:54And that's when you start to really go on to a whole other level as a coach and a player. It's not so
09:00much I'm having to coach her, teach her how to swing the racket and do all these things. It's,
09:05you know, this evolution of change, I guess, and growth. What makes Nicole such a good player? What
09:14makes her a once in a generation squash player? I think one of the strengths, one of the biggest
09:21strengths for Nicole is even though she'd won five world titles, she still listened and trusted me as a
09:28coach. I mean, she could have thought at that point, well, I know more than you now, but it,
09:33that was never the case. So this trust was really immense. And also her ability to focus under pressure,
09:42being able to, um, I guess, what, um, you know, prepare for matches, follow a game plan.
09:50You know, it's easy to give a player a game plan, but a lot of them stray off it and they struggle to
09:56get back to it. But we'd set game plans. She'd play the game plan. She'd come off the court,
10:00she'd win. And we'd be like, wow, you followed the game plan. It was great.
10:04But you're supposed to. I don't, sometimes when this says that, and I go like, well,
10:09I'm supposed to, so if I don't follow them, I'll lose. Right. So, so, and, and this is no,
10:15nobody follows the game plan or nobody actually continues to keep on training in the program
10:21because, so I just kept to it because I knew that if I kept to what Liz told me, I would follow,
10:27I'll be on track and I'll be winning and I'll be progressing. So I just kept trusting the process
10:33and be, and worked as hard as I can to get there. Trusting the process. Absolutely. So,
10:38so that was the evolution of your working relationship. Talk to me about when you decided
10:43to retire, um, and how that, so the shift that had to happen, um, when you decided to retire, Nicole.
10:51So actually the moment that I really realized that I had to retire was when Liz asked me this question.
11:02After the US Open in 2017, I lost to a player from Hong Kong in the second round. And when I came
11:09out, I was gutted and I, and I didn't know what I was going to do. And I was just feeling lost. But
11:15Liz asked me this question, like, you know, you don't seem like yourself anymore. And is it really,
11:21do you still want to keep playing squash? And I was like, yeah, of course I'll play for another five
11:25years. Absolutely. You know, why are you asking me this question? She's like, no, just think about it.
11:31Um, just be a bit honest with yourself and just take your time and think about it. And when I went
11:36back to the hotel and I really took that question, I just like waterworks all over the place because
11:44I knew it was time. And I, so I gave myself like two years that I only had two years left to push
11:50myself because mentally and physically, I mean, physically, I could keep going, but mentally,
11:55I just took so much out of me to be at number one for nine consecutive years. And, and you just
12:02don't have that edge anymore to win. Is that part of elite sportsmanship where you have seasons of,
12:09you know, real motivation and other seasons, you find yourself needing to remind yourself why you're in
12:15the love for the sport? There are seasons, but because I didn't have a season, I didn't have an injury.
12:20You have a break. I didn't have a break. I just, from 18 years old, I trained all to, I, and I don't
12:26think I took any breaks for that whole time. So it was for 13 years. 13 years without a break.
12:33Like really just pushing, pushing, pushing until that point of like being in 2014. Goodness.
12:39When I just, no, it was like 12, 13 years. And I just went, it's kind of, something kind of broke.
12:44And then Liz sort of just brought it up. I was pushing myself and not finding something to grab
12:49onto. And she just wanted to ask me that question to really go into it deeper. And then I just took
12:56that two years to let go of squash and slowly open my mind to possibilities after. And that's where
13:02the foundation and everything came about to be open to learning something new, to be exploring what's to
13:09come. And that's when I could let go of squash and be happy to retire.
13:14Yeah. I mean, what a wonderfully compassionate, but insightful comment. You don't seem like yourself.
13:20What was it that you saw? I saw a champion that was feeling defeated,
13:30you know, and finding it really hard to find that magic that she had before, you know, but to have that
13:37magic for nine years, world number one uninterrupted took so much mentally to do that. And then once
13:46you start to lose that, it's very hard, you know, because other things start happening in your life
13:51and maybe a little doubt, and then you're still working. And so I think it's just about having that
13:56space to, you know, look for other answers, have the time to decide, is it now time? Is it not?
14:06And I don't think it really crossed your mind to stop, you know, and it was like, well, it's worth
14:11thinking about because... Was that what happened to you? Did someone, when you made the decision
14:16to retire yourself, did someone come up to you and say, Liz, you don't seem like yourself? Well,
14:22no, I have my problem. I had to retire for injury. So, but yeah, and in those days, there just wasn't
14:30the support, I guess, to be able to get over a few major injuries. So for me, it was a natural
14:35progression to then move into coaching. And it was the best. I mean, I think I enjoyed my coaching
14:41life much more than my professional playing life. So, you know, that was a really good transition for
14:47me at the time. Okay. And your next chapter, Nicole, so transitioning from world champion squash,
14:54professional squash, squash player to the foundation. So talk to me a little about a bit about that,
14:58because you are now foregrounding the thought that sports should be a mental health intervention,
15:07that we should build, build this into our mental health response. Talk to me a little bit about that.
15:12Yes. So initially, when I wanted to have my foundation and with my co-founder and CEO,
15:18Mariana, we both wanted to see a positive future for children and the next generation. And I wanted
15:24to give back to all that I've learned from my squash and the values that sports has to offer to children.
15:32So that's where the Nicole David organization came about. And when you have sport in your life,
15:36you build the fundamentals for children to be confident, to be more disciplined, to have
15:46like teamwork, community, all these things just by playing sport. So our foundation now has three
15:53pillars. One is an after-school program, which is called Little Legends. And we have a squash training
15:59and English classes. And we have 150 kids in that program. We have a family pillar where we support the
16:06mothers of the children and we give mental health workshops and financial literacy workshops. And
16:14that's where we have about 75 mothers in the program. And then our very important program this year,
16:21we launched an outreach program and it's called Positive Place. So we combine positive psychology and
16:27physical activity. And we go into schools and we do a four-week intervention. So you have more kids.
16:34This is the most important one. We have more kids moving, not just using sport, but physical activity,
16:40fundamentals, whether it's running, it's jumping, just playing games, having fun with friends. And we
16:47want to tap onto the kids that don't play any sport in school. We want to tap on the 80% that are just not
16:54moving. They're on their devices or they're just too busy with maybe studying. But sport really helps them to
17:01become academically better. Because they are more alert. They can focus better. They can time manage.
17:08That's quite shocking, 80%. Isn't that a shocking figure? What do you think it is? Is it cultural? Is it a lack
17:15of understanding what sports can bring? Or do we just dismiss this as, or we prioritise academic excellence?
17:22The priority is academic excellence. But in the process, we don't correlate sport or movement to
17:29successful athletes, successful students. Because if I didn't have sport in my life, I wouldn't be a good
17:36student. I'll be so lazy. I'll be watching TV. Discipline, right? Talk to discipline, yeah.
17:40Yeah. And being active. So if you're active, your brain functions better. And then you're more alert.
17:47So I think that is kind of missing. And we really want to cultivate that. Hence why we are doing the
17:53Sports and Mental Health Summit, where we want to bring all different parties, different sectors
17:57to come together and know that we can use sport and physical activity as a tool to combat mental health.
18:04And now more than ever, with the rise of the crisis of mental health issues, not just in the youth
18:11level, but all around, we need the nation to be more active. And this is like our real call to bring
18:18this to the forefront. And hence why we are having this summit to make it known. I like that. I also like
18:25that it goes beyond sport and it includes movement, right? So any kind of healthy activity, move your body,
18:33get outside, maybe get some fresh air. One of the things that I came across when I was doing some
18:40research for our conversation was the gender participation gap in sports. And I didn't realize
18:47how many girls drop out of sports or have, you know, any kind of game, outdoor games at adolescence.
18:57So United Nations report, slightly older, found that at puberty, a girl's confidence drops two times
19:03than that of boys and 50% of girls drop out of sports. Liz, is that something that you've observed
19:11as well? Absolutely. I think that's in every country. And I don't know where that comes from. I don't know.
19:18But I think that, you know, if these girls or children get active in their early years and make
19:26that a priority, they become healthier adults in the long run, don't they? It's just a natural
19:32progression. So I guess it's trying to get the habits in there early and building that resilience
19:38and the confidence for, you know, certainly young girls to continue with sport and create an environment.
19:46If they're not comfortable in one environment, find an environment where they can feel okay to be
19:52doing sport, certainly in those puberty years. And so there's something that's happening there,
19:58isn't there? Yes. And I don't know what it is, but maybe it's to do environmentally,
20:02that they're not happy in that class or that maybe they're disrupted by other things. Well,
20:08let's find a way. How can we create those environments for girls that are not comfortable there?
20:12So you have a two-part issue. Definitely.
20:14And that could be something that schools could even do, you know, environments for those
20:19that aren't happy in that. Find an environment that can.
20:24That's right. Because I do, I absolutely agree. I think it's, it changes the course of somebody's
20:31life if they drop out of sports at that pivotal, crucial time of development, right? Nicole,
20:37did you see the gender participation gap as well? For sure. Like I, you know, I'm the 20% of the
20:45sporty girl that is always playing all the sports and, but funny enough, when you go into the schools,
20:54which our program is going into schools, we see that, you know, like if you give them access to
21:00playing sport or just, just doing movement or playing games, they realize that they can do it
21:06because they really, I think just in general, we feel that if you want to be active, you have to play
21:11a sport. Yeah. But it's not true. You can just run. You can just have fun with your friends in,
21:16in school, playing like dodgeball. That's what we bring in, like captain ball and just fun things that
21:21they go, Hey, this is fun. Now we got so much feedback and girls in particular, they need to
21:27do this so that they have a better self-perception of themselves. And we've done surveys with all our
21:33kids and actually the self-perception has gone up. The activity rate has gone up and we've already
21:39covered over 900 children in the last six months and for it with like about almost 28 schools, maybe 30
21:47schools now. What do you think that is that when you play sport, your self-perception, your self-confidence
21:54grows? What, what is that correlation? Do you, would you, you know, hypothesize what that could be? I just say it's a
22:01sense of personal achievement. Yeah. If you can do it, you feel good. Yeah. So you think, well, I, I like to feel
22:06good, so I want to keep doing it. You know, it's, it's very simple. Yeah, but no one use it so much, you know,
22:13it's just, it's right there. It's just a matter of giving them that access and that ability that,
22:18okay, why don't you try it? And they go, oh, I can do it. And that is just like knowing that they are
22:24already able to do something. Why not do more? And that's the first step. If they don't get that
22:29exposure, then they just be like, oh, I'm not an athlete. You know, my friend is an athlete. I'm not
22:34one, but I can be active now. Maybe there's identifying and also, um, it doesn't always have to be about
22:40being competitive. Yeah. There's also a lot that don't want to be competitive, but they want to
22:44have fun playing sports. So sometimes I guess they get funneled into that, um, way of having
22:52to be competitive when they don't want to. So then it becomes too much. So they drop out. So
22:56I guess it's just maybe having sort of identification of saying, you know, if the kid doesn't want to be
23:02competitive, it's fine. Let's put them somewhere where they can have fun and not be competitive.
23:06Yeah. Yeah. Listen to the kids, right? That's it. Yeah. What it is that they want. Yeah.
23:11So how are you enjoying this, this new chapter of your life? What, what made you passionate about
23:16wanting to address, um, children and movement and sports and mental health?
23:21Well, I believe that, uh, sport is such a strong tool to be used for mental health and
23:28you don't have to even think about it. The moment you're moving and you're doing something,
23:32you're already feeling better. They're happier in our foundation. The kids are happy when we do the,
23:39the activities in school, they're all happy. And that's the difference. You're getting happier
23:45kids. And that's what we want to change that mindset of, I, I can do something and move and
23:52that alone helps mental health. So why don't we just do it more? So that's my...
23:57So in the couple of minutes that we have left, I want to ask the both of you for anyone watching
24:01today, what would you want the next generation, especially women and young women, girls who may
24:08not see themselves in sport, who may not envision or do not have a life that is filled with boom.
24:14What do they, what would you like them to take away from your story, your passion?
24:19Um, I would like just women or girls out there or anyone to just start something with a friend or
24:27with their family. Because if you do something with a community that or someone that you are with,
24:34then you're having fun together or you're learning something together. And when that happens,
24:39you're also accountable with each other. So, so if someone is not feeling, is feeling down,
24:44you have like a partner too. Like a buddy. Like a buddy. Yeah, training buddy. Yeah. And also for kids,
24:50if you bring, if parents want to bring their kids to a new sport, bring their friend along so that they
24:56are doing it together and the friends are also like sharing that special time together. So I think it needs
25:02to be done as a whole so it becomes more fun. Yeah. Not so serious because when you do a sport on your own,
25:08everything is focused on you. If you do a mistake, it's all on you. And then that's when the pool,
25:13the dropout comes out. And so, so I think doing a sport, an activity together, walking in the park,
25:20dancing, having a good time. That's, that's all I want. Yeah. That's great. Liz. I tend to agree. I just
25:26think, yeah, absolutely. Spot on. Bring a friend together. Do it together, right? Have fun. That's it.
25:31Even young adults. Even if you're 30 to 50 and you haven't been to a gym or you haven't, get started.
25:38Get a training buddy. Get one of your friends. Let's go along. Yeah. Wonderful. Both of you, thank you so
25:43much for being here, sharing your message and also sharing your story. The lovely friendship
25:48this has been over so many years. Thank you for being here with me today. Thanks. Thank you. Thank
25:53you so much. That's all the time we have for you on this episode of The Future is Female. I'm
25:57Melissa Idris signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching. Good night.
26:03Love you.
26:12Bye, place to go.
26:17Bye.
26:23Bye.
26:28Bye forward to this episode of thegebobos,
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