- 9 months ago
- #considerthis
What is lost when we are not able to see the stars in the night sky? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Nurul Fatini Jaafar, Malaysia’s first ethno-astronomer and founder of Sahabat Langit Utara, which is a grassroots initiative promoting Astronomy For Development. Fatini discusses her research into Indigenous astronomical knowledge, her mission to educate against light pollution, and her advocacy for preserving the dark sky.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to The Future is Female. This is the show where we
00:16find the extraordinary in every woman. I am very delighted today to introduce you to my guest.
00:22She is Malaysia's first ethno-astronomer. Nurul Fatini Jaafar, who is the founder of Sahabat Langit Utara,
00:31which is a grassroots initiative promoting astronomy for development. We're going to learn
00:36a little bit more about what that means. First of all, Fatini, welcome to the show. It's good of
00:41you to join me. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much, Melissa. All the way from Penang.
00:45Yes, all the way from Penang. I'm excited. I'm pretty nervous too. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
00:52Thank you for the invitation. We've been waiting for a long time to speak to you.
00:56So why don't you begin with telling us a little bit about your love for astronomy? What drew you
01:04to astronomy? I don't know a lot of people who have a passion for this. So what sparked your interest?
01:09Okay. To be honest, I was grown up in Langkawi. Yeah. So Langkawi in the early 90s, having a dark sky.
01:20Oh. And then after 10 years in Langkawi, my father, my family moved to Bukit Kayu Hitam.
01:26Then there is another story of having a clear dark sky, you know, on the border. I mean like in the border of
01:32Malaysia and Thailand. And the weather in the north is actually dry. You know, there are seasons that
01:38we are having the dry season. It's actually between November and March. So that's where
01:43the dry season is. When the eastern coast is having heavy monsoon, but it's drier season
01:49in the north, in the western, in the west coast. So that is where I started having affairs
01:57with the night sky. That is a lovely way to describe it. Yeah. So I enjoy growing up in
02:04Langkawi. I enjoy the culture of people in Langkawi. That's where I, my, my, my late mother
02:10also, she enjoys culture so much. Yeah. So that's where I, I mean like, that's the interconnected,
02:17well, the interconnectedness between the night sky and also the culture. And that's what's
02:23lead me to ethnoastronomy. Okay. So when you talk about culture, I mean, astronomy is very,
02:29um, I think about astronomy in a very western lens. Um, so how did, how did you nurture your
02:38interest in ethnoastronomy? Because I'm just wondering, was it easy to find resources about
02:44us? Yes, yes. Okay. Uh, yes, there is no shortcut. Uh, I did my degree in physics in USM,
02:51University of Science Malaysia. And then from there, uh, they offered us that time with minor
02:57in astronomy. So I took up minor in astronomy. I graduated in 2012. Uh, but since 2010, uh, me and
03:04my friends, we are very active with, uh, USM Astronomy Club. So if there is like any celestial events,
03:11we usually will do, you know, we will organize celebration for it, you know? So yeah. So,
03:17and also, I mean, during that time where, uh, our supervisor that time, Dr. Chong Hon Yu,
03:23so he introduced us to astrotourism. So he said, if we want to see dark sky, then we need to go
03:30inland, you know? So we did, yeah. So what we did is that we like, like monthly, we are having trips to
03:38Royal Bloom, you know? Yeah. To Langkawi. So just to like, just to, to enjoy the night sky. I mean,
03:45like you are in Penang, you know, so you, you can't see much because of the light pollution.
03:50So we travel inland. Uh, and then, uh, upon I completed my BSc. So again, Dr. Chong, uh, said to me that, uh,
04:00he said, I don't see you as someone like, you know, working as an astronomer in the observatory or, you know,
04:07in the lab, like, you know, analyzing data. He's not seeing me as something, someone like that.
04:13So he printed few papers, few journals, few papers from journals, uh, on indigenous astronomy.
04:21So that was actually Aboriginal astronomy from Australia. Uh, so he printed that paper and he
04:27passed it to me. And then they cakap, you go and read this girl. She said, uh, he said. So I,
04:33that's where I started to know, like, oh, there is a field at no astronomy. So there is so much in the
04:39communities that I, I, I mean, like, since we were in school, we already have taught in science
04:45about, uh, the constellation. So we know there are constellations, Belantik, you know, uh, Bidok,
04:51if you still remember, Pari, you know, these are all the Malay constellations.
04:54So I always, uh, I always ask myself, I mean, like, who are the bearers of this constellation?
05:04You know, I mean, like, if there are Malays and then which group of Malays, you know, even though
05:09we are homogenously, we are Malays, but we have all these sub, sub groups of Malays, you know? So
05:15either this Malays coming from the north or coming from the south, or is it orang asli that they are
05:20saying as the Malays who, who have this knowledge, you know, because we are all interconnected, uh,
05:24interconnected, right? So, uh, that's why I challenged myself. So it just started from there. So, uh,
05:30I also active in academic, uh, back then. So I always, uh, join, you know, like conference or seminar
05:36talking about the Malay cultural heritage and all those. So whenever they come to discussion on
05:42navigation, especially, you know, talking about the Malay, you know, the Malay knowledge,
05:46English, apa semua. So, uh, they always said that, oh, Malay are very, you know, expert in navigation,
05:52expert in, you know, in seafaring. And then I asked them, uh, can you show me? I mean, like,
05:57can you prove to me? I mean, like, yes, I, I, I agree that the Malays are very good in navigating.
06:02I said, but then what knowledge system that they hold? Uh, and then, I mean, like,
06:09macam what constellation that they're referring to? And then no one can answer my question.
06:13Okay, so you sought to answer your own question. Yes, I have, uh, yeah,
06:18tak ada cara, tak ada cara lain, kan? So I challenge myself, then I need to take this. So that's
06:22how I take this field seriously. So that's where I go into researching, uh, and I started,
06:30oh, is it too long? No, no, no, I'm actually, I'm actually quite curious because I, I really,
06:35I'm, I'm so interested in this, um, this topic. I want to know how, how well preserved
06:43is this knowledge. Is that, are we at risk of losing this? Uh, yes, yes, uh, I can say that,
06:49yes, we are already actually losing it. Okay, I, I, I just let you know that, uh, for the first time,
06:56when I decided to do research in this at No Astrology, I mean, like, I don't know to which group I
07:01should channel this question to, you know? Yeah. So... Who do you go to for answers, right? Yes. Uh, so,
07:07okay, since I know that there is already Belante, Bido, and Pari Constellations, so the,
07:14the nearest community that I can go is actually back to my community, the Kedahan. But the issue
07:19with the Kedahan nowadays is that, uh, there are no more traditional farmers, uh, traditional
07:26paddy planters. There are no more traditional fishermen. You know? So, uh, but there is a body of knowledge
07:33that we call as the traditional calendar, name Piamah, in, in Kedah. Uh, it's actually in Langkawi,
07:39in Perles, and also in Northern Kedah. We have this knowledge called Piamah. Piamah means season.
07:45Okay. So, in a year, the Kedahan, we have this, uh, yearly calendar. The, the, the calendar is called
07:52Piamah, and then there is subdivision of it, the monthly division of it. So, it's called sub-Piamah lah. So,
07:57we have, like, Piamah Sa, which is Piamah 1 lah. Piamah Sa, Piamah 2, Piamah 3, Piamah 4,
08:02until up to Piamah 12. So, a seasonal calendar? Yes, it's a seasonal calendar. Yes, a monthly
08:06calendar. So, each month, we have the monthly characteristics of the seasons, of the winds,
08:12of the insects coming, of the birds. We have this. Wow. Yes. You can google it. This is Piamah. P-I-A-M-A.
08:21So, uh, but, uh, okay. When I research it, so, uh, there is a record saying that, uh, the paddy
08:30planters in the past, they are referring to the, uh, uh, clusters, to the star clusters,
08:35to the star clusters, which is the P-I-D star cluster. P-I-D star cluster is actually in Japanese,
08:40they call it Subaru. Uh, or the Malays call it Bintang Tujuh, the Jula Juli Bintang Tujuh. So,
08:46the Kedahan Malays referring to this constellation for the time when they want to start sewing paddy.
08:52The traditional people. Yes. There are not many people aware of this. They use the stars to guide their
08:59planting cycle. Yes, yes. But, but not all family, not, not all farming family use the same,
09:06uh, we call it petua. Not, not everyone call it, uh, do the same. Yeah. So, like,
09:10like, each family, they have their own petua. So, some family do have petua on the celestial objects.
09:16So, they will refer to the Pleidis or this Bintang Tujuh. Uh, so, uh, they will use Bintang Tujuh for
09:22sowing the seed and also for the time when they are going to stop sowing the seed. So, it's time just
09:28they let the, the, the, the, the, the, the paddy grow. And also, uh, when is the time they will start to start,
09:34uh, collecting the, the, the paddy. So, there is the knowledge. I mean, like, the astronomical knowledge that is
09:41uh, practiced by the paddy planters. Uh, and then I made another trip, uh, to Langkawi. I mean,
09:49I interviewed because I've, when I was grown up in Langkawi. So, I've been used, I mean, like,
09:54like, my, my, my father already, like, like, took me to the sea. I mean, we went fishing, you know. So,
09:59I've been exposed to all this fishing, uh, lifestyle and so on. So, I went to my, uh, my, my father's
10:07friend. He's still a fisherman there. Uh, so, I asked him about if he is referring to any constellation
10:13or any stars. And he said, yes, he's referring to the same Bintang Tujuh for the season, for, for
10:20the fishermen in the sea. So, yeah. Paddy farmers and fishermen. Yes, yes. Tapi, it's a different, they're
10:27using it for different activities. Yes, yes, yes. Amazing. Yes. What, what, what wonderful way to capture,
10:34you know, indigenous knowledge and to make it in as part of our literature, our research
10:40literature now. It is. But, but that was only answering on the Bintang Tujuh thing. We, I still
10:48don't find answer for belante, for, you know, for bidu. So, you're still looking. Yes, I'm still
10:53looking, looking around. So, I mean, like, I don't know where, I mean, like, okay, I've done with
10:59the Malays. I, I said just, I mean, like, okay, it's just enough for the Malays. So, I have no clue. So,
11:06I was thinking, like, I mean, like, in anthropology. So, we have this, you know, we have this hunting
11:11and gathering, uh, lifestyle. We have this Swedening lifestyle. And, and another one is, uh, sorry,
11:18the, the agricultural lifestyle and also the fishing lifestyle. So, definitely, I want to go to the
11:23hunting and gathering because I thought that, yes. Because they needed for navigation. It is.
11:27I was thinking, like, maybe they are the hunters and gatherers, you know. So, uh, so I went to,
11:32I went to Royal Bloom, back to Royal Bloom. So, uh, I studied, uh, I studied with the Jahai people,
11:38the Negrito Jahai. Uh, and I don't, I, I, I, I feel to, to document any constellations
11:47among them. But, the Jahai, uh, did use, uh, still use, uh, the moon phases, uh, for them to go
11:53hunting, uh, for them to gather the giant honey bee, the honey. So, uh, even the, like,
12:00fruiting season or the, you know, the, the, the flowering season. So, they are still referring
12:06to the moon phases and also, I mean, like, the, the knowledge of the seasons, uh, among the Jahai.
12:10And then, okay, I said, okay, done with the Jahai and then, I go to the, uh, Senoy people.
12:15Because Senoy is the one that are doing the Padihuma, you know, in the, in the past.
12:20So, I went to, uh, Koyan, Pahang. So, I stayed with the Semai family.
12:24So, Semai also the same. Uh, they don't have, I mean, like, maybe in the past,
12:28they do have, uh, but then, uh, nowadays, they are normal practicing it. So,
12:32maybe they, they just lost their knowledge. But, they do have knowledge on the, the moon phases.
12:39Again, in the, among the Senoy. But then, I said, okay, then with the Senoy and then,
12:43I go to the Proto-Malays, which is the Melayu Asli. That's just, uh, my, my, my rezeki,
12:49like, I call it. It's just my luck. Uh, I stayed with the orang Asis Melay. But, you must
12:56understand that orang Asis Melay, they are Austro-Asiatik. Their language group, their
13:00linguistic group is Austro-Asiatik. But, they are grouped as the Proto-Malays. Okay.
13:06Because of the lifestyle. They are, they are, they are more to the Malay, Malay style. Okay. So, uh,
13:11when I stayed with the orang Asis Melay in Tasik Berah, uh, during the last, I mean, like, I, I, I did the
13:18pilot, I mean, like, pilot, pilot project that, I mean, pilot, you know, uh, having the interview and
13:23those for that first week. So, I dah nak balik dah that time. And then, on the final day,
13:28the wife of the Perhulu said, oh, during the past, we have this Bintang Peh, Bintang Kerancong.
13:35Oh, the last day, she told you the stories. Yes. She just remembered. I mean, like,
13:40because it's from the fathers, you know, from the mothers. It's passed down knowledge, right? Yes.
13:44But, but then you're more practicing it. So, that's why they already forgot it. So, and I said,
13:49okay, I will come back. Uh, then that's how I stayed with this Malay for a year, uh, collecting the
13:56knowledge of the stars and also just to understand. Amazing. So, all these experiences and clearly,
14:02you have such a passion for, for the, the dark sky, for the night sky, um, and that led you to
14:09forming your Sahabat Langit Utara. Yes. And what was it that you wanted to achieve with this? Okay. Uh,
14:18as, I mean, like, in Malaysia case, our astronomy perspective or the knowledge of astronomy,
14:25the pursuit of knowledge is focusing more on the scientific part of it. Yes. So, it's like,
14:32even the astronomers also, I mean, like, whenever people ask me, oh, you're doing astronomy, they feel
14:37like it's something so unique, so, you know, so authentic, you know, but then for me, the knowledge
14:43is actually, I mean, like, everyone is practicing astronomy actually on the ground level. In what way?
14:48I mean, you know, I mean, for, for Islam itself, we have these five rukun Islam. So, the four rukun
14:54Islam is actually, you need astronomy for you to, you know, to perform these four rukun Islam. Uh,
15:00for ibadat, for, for sembahyang, you need the, the, the shadow of the, uh, the sun. And then for, uh,
15:08puasa. Puasa is that you are observing the hilal, the new moon. And then for zakat also relating to new moon.
15:13And then another one is for haji also is relating to the moon. So, we just like feel astronomy is so,
15:20like, you know, it's part of our daily life actually. Yes, yes, yes, it is. And some also
15:25because the community in, in, in the kampung, they're practicing the moon, the knowledge of the moon,
15:30you know, the, yes, the, like this one, the, the knowledge of the stars in the past. So,
15:35I just want people to feel like astronomy is actually for everyone. And astronomy is actually for
15:42all. Yes. But, but what about in this day and age where we struggle to identify the stars?
15:51It is. Because of the light that, yeah, because the night sky is no longer a dark sky. It is, it is.
15:58Okay. So, uh, I mean, like when we are introducing, when we are promoting astronomy for development,
16:05so, I mean, like, uh, the best way, we, we have experience communicating astronomy with the public,
16:11but from the sphere of, uh, education. I mean, like, you know, we are on the classroom line. Yes.
16:17So, uh, once I, uh, started working with the community through the Northern Corridor Project.
16:23So, I feel like this is the community that I want to work with, you know. So, I, I start to travel inland.
16:29I mean, like, I, I've been to, uh, you know, seeing the dark sky in Purdue, in Seik, in, in Baling.
16:36So, there are still, like, uh, what is that like? Tell us what, I mean, from some,
16:42someone in the city where the sky is never dark. You can see it easily. You can see the Milky Way,
16:48our galaxy, the Milky Way, you can see it using your naked eye. It's as easy as that.
16:54That sounds amazing. Yeah. So, I feel that this is the thing that we need to bring to the people
17:01that are not aware of this, you know. So, like, like, we usually think of the inland is having
17:06nothing, you know. I mean, like, you can't sell product from the inland. But then, this is the product
17:11that we can not, I mean, like, sell in a, in a good way, you know. This is what we can expose people to, you know.
17:17This is astrotourism. Yes, and this is astrotourism. So, that's why Salud is actually
17:21communicating astronomy through astrotourism. So, we put it under, uh, community-based tourism,
17:27and it's, uh, astrotourism. And we are also so lucky that starting this year, in June, inshallah,
17:34Tourism Malaysia will be launching the stargazing package, uh, under ecotourism. Yeah. So,
17:40how do you make sure, Fatini, um, how do you make sure that because part of astrotourism is, uh,
17:47preserving our night sky, how do we make sure that we don't risk over-commercialization of that,
17:55and then dilutes the ability for us to see the night sky? Yes, it is. Okay. So, when we start
18:01promoting dark sky, I mean, when we start promoting stargazing is one way of, like, having,
18:08attracting people for this tourism thing. So, we are having these issues of, uh, light pollution. So,
18:14yes, when you are start promoting a place as a tourism place. So, you know, there will be, like,
18:21tourism players who start, you know, having a campsite here, all the lights there. Correct. The
18:26transportation, the accommodation. Okay. So, Alhamdulillah, we are also lucky that, uh, just past few days, uh,
18:34MISA, the agency Angkasa Malaysia, yes, they just have the very first libat urus about the light pollution.
18:42Uh, so, they are planning to have a guideline on lighting. Yes. On just luminaries, we call it. Yeah. So,
18:50uh, so there will be a guideline for, like, you know, for residential area, they need this lighting
18:57guideline. For a pub, let's see, they need this guideline. For a resort, this is the guideline. Actually,
19:02okay. And, and the thing is that I, I did mention to my friends that if we are only talking about we
19:09want to protect the night sky for just for the sake of stargazing and astronomy, not all people will get
19:14it. They don't feel like belong to it, you know, because not everyone likes, I mean, like, you know,
19:21enjoy watching the night sky. So, we must make that this, uh, dark sky or light pollution issue is
19:28something that why everyone needs to protect it. And that's where we need to communicate it on the
19:33biodiversity, on, on the, on, uh, relating to the biodiversity. So, it's actually how light pollution is
19:39actually not only for the astronomy. It's also to protect insects, you know. So, insects, they are
19:46attracted to lights, you know, at night. So, supposedly, it's supposed to be dark for them, you know, but,
19:52but because there is light, so they will go. It's unnatural, right? Yes. And they will, I mean, like, yeah,
19:56they will mati kering there, you know, attracted to light, you know. So, uh, also for the nocturnal
20:02animals. Nocturnal animals, they don't need light at night because that's the way they survive in the
20:06night. But then, we are putting lights. Yeah. And then, another one is for, for the plants also. There is
20:13already research, uh, on the plants, on the leaf. Uh, if the trees is located just right under the lamb. So,
20:21lama-lama the, the, the leaf will start to thicken. So, the sap is, I mean, like, the, the insects cannot,
20:29cannot, cannot take the sap from, from the leaf, you know. So, these are all already happening.
20:34Yeah. There is a, uh, an impact on biodiversity. It is. It is. Yeah. So, I said that this is what we need
20:43to communicate, not only communicate, saying that, oh, we need to protect the night sky for the sake of
20:48astronomy for us to only do stargazing. I said, we also need to, to, to communicate it for, for others,
20:55for, for, for, for the rest of, I mean, like, for, for everyone. Yeah. I mean, you're absolutely right.
21:01I think the, uh, we don't realize what light pollution is, the scale of light pollution that we, we,
21:08we suffer from, and also what we, what we lose when we have all this light pollution. Um, Fatini,
21:14I want to ask you in the time that we have left, um, about the overall ecosystem for, um, astronomy in
21:21Malaysia. I'm just wondering where, um, you think we can improve. Are there, are there,
21:27is there enough support for the people who love astronomy and are passionate and interested in it?
21:34Yes. Okay. Uh, actually every year, Malaysia is keep on producing, uh, I mean, like, you know,
21:40producing students with astronomy background. Okay. And then we have Islamic astronomy. We also have
21:45modern astronomy with physics background. But then the issue is that these students, they, we don't,
21:53they didn't have jobs. I mean, like, in, in, in easy words, we don't have jobs. Right. In the field
21:58that they studied in. Yes. Okay. It is, it is. We don't have much observatories in Malaysia. And I don't
22:03blame the government also for not having much observatories. Why? Because there is, I mean, like,
22:08there is no, something like, you know, the pool factor, why we need to have so many, yes,
22:13so many observatories and some, you know, yeah, not comparing us with the big countries, you know.
22:18So, uh, actually astronomy education and also astronomy communication and also astronomy tourism
22:25is the field that we can have all these experts to be in. But we need to have to change a bit of mindset
22:34for all these astronomy graduates. Because when I started doing tourism, so, you know, like,
22:40of course we are having this degree in physics, so we don't feel like, oh, tourism, it's not for me,
22:45you know, you know. Okay. We have all these mindsets. So, I mean, like, in this era, so,
22:50students should not have this, like, you know, having ego and like having degree in science. So,
22:56I cannot work in social science or like, you know, even in social science. So, I cannot go. So,
23:01what would you, what would you say to them? How would you explain to them that everything is
23:05interconnected and we have to be multidisciplinary? Go for what money brings you. Go, go wherever the
23:11money brings you. Definitely. I mean, you know, I mean, yeah, but, but I, I mean it in a good way,
23:17you know. I mean, like, if, if you can do something, I mean, like, what we are doing is, like, we are
23:23advocating astronomy to tourism. But see, after a few, after few years, I mean, like, it's not only work from
23:28our side. It's actually work from everyone. So, we see that there is already a libat urus on
23:33light pollution. Yeah. You know, we are discussing this. Moving forward. Yes. Yes. And we start to
23:38involve the pehutanan to be in the meeting, you know. So, yeah, we are expanding the field,
23:45actually. Oh, that's so exciting. So, rather than just focusing on the scientific part, but then you
23:49are not expanding the field. Okay. So, so then I have to ask you in the minute that we have left, what,
23:54what are you excited about in this field? I mean, you've really painted a picture for us how
23:59wonderful it can be. But what, where do you see the future of astronomy in Malaysia? How do we
24:06grow this so that everyone feels a sense of excitement when they look up to the night sky and
24:12and see the stars? Okay. So, the intention of me starting Salud, founding Salud is actually,
24:19I honestly just want, like, everyone to just replicate the ideas. I don't set myself, I mean,
24:26like, I don't want Salud to, like, you know, conquering the astronomy field in Malaysia or what. No,
24:30no, no. That's not the idea. So, I just want to communicate the knowledge. I just want to
24:35keep on replicating, you know, just transferring the knowledge, the skills. So, other people will set up
24:40others? Yes, sure. Yes. I really hope that actually, if every district can have their own
24:47astronomy community, that would be happy. I mean, like, that would be very much, I mean, like,
24:53we feel so much on it, actually. Because why? Because when we talk on the economic, I mean,
24:57like, on the economy sphere, if you are having more and more users, then... Yeah, it's economies of scale.
25:04It is, it is. So, yeah, and yeah, you're having more users, and if you want to do anything, and then
25:10the country also will feel like, oh, this is a field or an industry that we need to look in,
25:17and they will start to, you know, to give more data, more budgets or whatever, you know. So,
25:24it's a win-win situation for everyone. So, more funding, more jobs created, more demand and supply.
25:31Yes. So, this is the core of your astronomy for development.
25:35Development, yes. Wonderful. Well, we've taken it full circle, Fatini, from, you know,
25:39from the very beginning, and we've ended it with astronomy for development. And I want to thank you so
25:43much for being on the show. It's been so illuminating, if I may use the pun, to speak to you today.
25:52Thank you for your time. Thank you, Marisa. That's all we have for you on this episode of
25:56The Future is Female. I'm Melissa Idris, signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching.
26:02Good night.
26:13Good night.
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