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00:00Good evening everyone, welcome to Who Has Seen It?
00:02As you will see, we are connected with our Filomena Rorro
00:06which is in the laboratories of the Scientific Police
00:10and we thank them because we can be there.
00:13It's the Scientific Police who are working on the bones
00:16which were found in the nunciature.
00:19These bones about which everything has been said, truly so much and more
00:24these days they are of a minor, of a woman, of a girl,
00:27of a woman between 25 and 35 years old
00:30and then we went to ask Professor Arcudi
00:34who is the Vatican's consultant with the Scientific Police
00:37he is working on these poor remains, on the fragments
00:42which were found inside the apostolic annunciation
00:44if we can know today if it is a woman, a girl,
00:50of a young person, of an adult. Let's hear it.
00:52Annalisa Benditti heard it.
00:56Professor Arcudi, initial analyses would suggest that these are bones.
01:00of a person between 25 and 35 years old?
01:04No, no sir. This is unfounded news.
01:07and a discrediting fact that was not only from what it was derived.
01:15If we want to be adherent to the scientific idea of investigations
01:21up to this point we can only say
01:23that at present no diagnosis of sex can be made
01:29on those bony structures.
01:31No age diagnosis can be made on those bone structures.
01:36that they are not simple inferences or hypotheses
01:39which are not based on scientific evidence.
01:42Everyone can make the hypotheses they want, I can make the hypotheses too
01:45but I am not giving them as hypotheses resulting from the scientific investigation that is underway.
01:50It seems obvious to me.
01:52So, very clearly, Professor Arcudi is a woman,
01:54we don't know yet, we don't know his age yet,
01:58consider that this interview Annalisa Benditti
02:00he made it yesterday evening.
02:03Well, I really thank the scientific police
02:07because it allows us to be there and try to understand how it's done
02:11when there is a fragment, when there is a part, just a part of the skeleton
02:16to understand who this part of the skeleton belongs to.
02:18But first I want to show you two of the photographs.
02:24Let's go in, let's say, let's go into this apartment
02:27which belonged to the custodian of the Apostolic Annunciation.
02:30Here they are. We can show you inside.
02:35where it was dug, where the floor was removed
02:39why there was humidity and where the bones were found.
02:44Tonight we will also show you some unpublished documents,
02:48some photographs concerning Marcinkus, you all know him by now,
02:52very powerful, a man of the Church.
02:54We are talking about a different Vatican which is not the one of today,
02:57the Vatican of many years ago.
02:59He was the head of the IOR, he was a truly powerful person.
03:02We have photographs of him in a restaurant.
03:07In a restaurant, there are also two women with him.
03:10Of course we have blacked out the photographs.
03:13You see Marcinkus is smoking.
03:17Then you'll see him, you know, drinking, smoking and talking to these women.
03:21One on the right, do you see it?
03:22We have obscured her face, she has dark, black hair, very well-groomed.
03:27A beautiful woman, of course we will ask ourselves who these people are.
03:32Marcinkus was somehow implicated in the kidnapping of Manuela Orlandi,
03:37but also that of Mirella Gregori, because, you know,
03:41Minardi had said that through De Pedis, through Men of the Magliana Gang,
03:48He was thus able to meet girls, young girls.
03:52This is the exit from the restaurant, a restaurant that is near St. Peter's,
03:57a restaurant called Il Giardinaccio, specializing in Monisan specialties.
04:02Here it is.
04:03Who are the other people?
04:04Then we will try to understand it together with you.
04:07Unpublished photos that, I was telling you, I was talking to you about before,
04:11unpublished we had never seen it before, so Marcinkus,
04:14in a convivial situation, with people, with two women.
04:20But this is about these girls, I have to say,
04:23that Antonietta, your sister was 15 years old, then it's a dive into the past,
04:28in short, mothers now rightly worry immediately,
04:31like you did too, but in short there is a little more attention.
04:36Hearing my mother's tears brought back my own mother's tears.
04:39Of your mother, who never stopped crying,
04:42because then she died and your sister still hasn't been found.
04:45So, with Mirella Gregori's sister we have our Marina Baldi,
04:49whom we thank, because he is here with us,
04:50because he is also working with the Penelope association
04:54of a very important fact, that is, a DNA database,
04:57so when bones are found
04:59There is a database of all missing persons.
05:02I'll show you, because it's an important image for us.
05:06We are at the headquarters of the Scientific Police,
05:09with our Filomena Rorro.
05:11Can you introduce us to your guests, Filomena?
05:16Yes, Federica, good evening to you.
05:19I am with Dr. Alessandra Larosa,
05:23senior technical director biologist of the State Police,
05:26basically the doctor is a biologist,
05:29and Dr. Antonio Grande,
05:31first medical director of the State Police,
05:34that is, medical examiner.
05:35Listen, Filomena,
05:37Federica, you were saying that you...
05:39Yes.
05:39I would tell you something,
05:41before going to you,
05:43which is naturally a very important place,
05:45by the way we had Dr. Grande
05:48even in our daily strip,
05:50sometimes we interview him,
05:51we are always terrified of his height,
05:53I'm becoming a nuisance, really.
05:56It is true.
05:57It is true.
05:58So, before I go to you,
06:00in this place that is so important,
06:02I would like, to make it clear to our viewers,
06:06how to get to the Scientific Police.
06:10By now you all know,
06:11what do we do?
06:12We always go to this worker
06:13who works in an important place,
06:16who works on the roof of the building
06:20where the custodian of the Apostolic Annunciation lived,
06:23embassy, let's say, of the Vatican,
06:25and our Marco Monti always asks him questions, right?
06:28But for us it is important because we show you
06:31where, that is, down there, bones were found,
06:35he continues to work on it,
06:37so as he continued to work on it,
06:39it seemed a little strange to us,
06:41because we asked him
06:41but why do you keep working up there?
06:44if there are bones underneath
06:46which they even opened
06:47a murder case,
06:49of concealment of corpses,
06:50or maybe more corpses?
06:51So let's hear what he told us.
06:54Ah, are you working externally?
06:56Hopefully outside on the roof,
06:58we are doing watering for water infiltration.
07:00And inside the guardhouse there is no...
07:02Now everything is blocked,
07:04since they made the discovery
07:05I stop everything,
07:06it's no longer there,
07:08then inside the companies,
07:09the company that worked inside
07:11she doesn't work anymore because they blocked her
07:13after the bones were found?
07:15I know they still work inside,
07:17but inside or here nobody works anymore.
07:19Ah, no one inside the guardhouse?
07:22Nothing is done anymore.
07:23And you are not the company
07:24who did the interior work?
07:26Yes, it's only here,
07:27it's very much at all.
07:31Thank you.
07:31Good work.
07:32Thank you.
07:35Here we always go to this operator
07:36who is very kind by the way
07:38because to make you understand where we are in the meantime
07:40and then we immediately had the fact that they continued to work
07:42instead he explained to us
07:43we are putting the sheath on
07:44but inside, everything was confiscated
07:46and now it's right there in front of you
07:48by the way I don't know if it can be seen
07:50our Francesco Paolo del Re
07:52who stood right in front of the windows
07:54of this building
07:57which we say is not exactly Villa Giorgina
07:59it is the house where the caretaker of Villa Giorgina lived
08:03so it's not in the main building
08:05that the bones were found
08:06but there.
08:07Now, these days
08:09everything has been said
08:10at some point it was said
08:12that those bones could belong
08:14to a missing woman
08:15who was the wife of the caretaker Pino
08:17so it was said
08:18I mean, among other things, you are waiting for the DNA
08:21which isn't there yet
08:22because we understood it from Arcudi
08:23and you knew that maybe
08:25he says it's not about my sister
08:26because she is the wife of the caretaker Pino
08:29which has disappeared
08:30actually
08:30always going to snoop around
08:32in short, to ask questions
08:33we discovered
08:34that the wife of the caretaker Pino
08:35she survived the caretaker Prino
08:38that is, it's not like that
08:39In short
08:40let's hear from Marco Monti
08:41what does he tell him
08:42someone who lives there
08:44right there around there
08:46the one who as he said
08:47that the Portiere lady has disappeared
08:49but that one is alive too
08:50the last one
08:51the last one that was there
08:53the last one
08:53the one whose husband died
08:55two years ago
08:56who was a goalkeeper here
08:57her husband disappeared
08:59her husband died
09:00because he was a doorman here
09:01he died two years ago
09:02but that's what they say
09:03that her husband's name is Pino
09:06and she's alive
09:07ah she didn't disappear
09:08she is alive
09:09Certain
09:09and these
09:11they invent bullshit
09:12which has disappeared
09:13and she's alive too
09:15At that time
09:16and this is
09:19why give
09:20all this news
09:22to do
09:22to make you anxious
09:24even more
09:25to families
09:26when you are not sure
09:27of what is said
09:28it's a question
09:29what do we do?
09:31that is, you say
09:32at a certain point
09:33we wake up in the morning
09:34and we hear
09:35in the evening
09:35they warned us
09:36the journalists
09:37because it's always you
09:38that you let us know
09:39Then
09:39we found each other
09:41catapulted
09:41in this vortex
09:42of news
09:43which then are not
09:45reliable
09:45because here it is
09:46as we have seen
09:47nothing is known yet
09:48no, we don't know anything yet
09:50Professor Arcudi
09:50it was clear
09:51he said
09:51for now
09:52we don't even know
09:53if she is a woman
09:54oh man
09:55and it is not known
09:55the age
09:56look
09:57us
09:58some things
09:59then we will look for them
10:00to understand
10:00right with Professor Arcudi
10:01Why
10:04he released us
10:05a nice interview
10:05it's important
10:06but we tried
10:07to understand also
10:09we said
10:09but it's not
10:10why in Rome
10:10happens
10:11that there are
10:12of the bones
10:12underground
10:14in the catacombs
10:15that then somewhere
10:16In short
10:17they come out
10:18what happened
10:19That
10:20right there nearby
10:21I have to say
10:22who pointed it out to me
10:23Marina Baldi
10:24there is a place
10:26what is called
10:26the catacombs
10:27of Saint Felicity
10:28which is a place
10:30now you will see it
10:31he tells us about it
10:32a person
10:33very cultured
10:34who lives
10:34in those parts
10:35and that
10:36In short
10:36it gave us something to think about
10:37because we said
10:38but it's not that then
10:39we're talking about bones
10:40of a young man
10:41a few years ago
10:42and then instead
10:44they belong
10:45to a person
10:46which has disappeared
10:46who knows how many years ago
10:47look
10:48maybe it's suggestion
10:49but it's important
10:50understand
10:51where we are
10:53Saint Felicity's Day
10:55the priest
10:57he says mass
10:58standing
10:59and they are always there
11:01once a year
11:0210-12 people
11:04on the sides though
11:06you can see the tunnels
11:07the tunnels
11:09where there is a little chain
11:10because it is dangerous
11:11to advance
11:12I certainly do
11:13I wouldn't venture out
11:15if one gets lost
11:17in the catacombs
11:18he can't do it anymore
11:19what is interesting
11:21is that these catacombs
11:22they take everything
11:24this area
11:25because it ends
11:27up to Via Salaria
11:28up to Via Savoia
11:29and they join together
11:31with the catacombs
11:32by Priscilla
11:33I who live
11:34on Via Le Liegi
11:35when we should
11:37do some work
11:41sank
11:41all the way to Israel
11:43all the way to Israel
11:44it's all underneath
11:46the catacombs
11:47so I don't tell her
11:48what was it
11:49Why
11:50you must intervene
11:51the superintendency
11:52the State
11:54the Municipality
11:55and the Vatican
11:56to understand better
11:57At that time
11:58looking at this building
11:59the descent
12:00what he told me
12:00in which part
12:01it is oriented
12:02towards
12:02let's say over there
12:03over there
12:04towards there
12:05because he sees
12:06that one there
12:06it's the announcement
12:09it's the announcement
12:10where I didn't find
12:11the famous corpse
12:12now we'll see a little
12:14to see
12:14whose corpse is this?
12:16he understands
12:17and that's the famous one
12:18Villa Giorgina
12:19which was given as a gift
12:21from the owner
12:22which was called
12:23Isaiah Levi
12:24in 49
12:26to Pope Pius XII
12:30here look
12:31it must be said
12:31which in short
12:32the story
12:34of these buildings
12:34it's crazy
12:35Really
12:36and brings us back
12:38backwards
12:39with
12:39Truly
12:40with historical facts
12:41that are interesting
12:42even for today
12:43No
12:43what happened
12:44there
12:45to the owner
12:46of Villa Giorgina
12:46we want it for you
12:47tell
12:49in our own way
12:50with yellowish
12:52coal
12:52and you will see
12:54that somehow
12:55we entered
12:56in this building
12:58that is, in the part
12:59of the building
12:59the added one
13:00to the guard
13:01that is, where there were
13:02practically
13:03the apartments
13:04of the custodian
13:05we'll show you
13:06that's right there
13:07they were removed
13:08the floors
13:09because there was a problem
13:10of humidity
13:11that's how it started
13:12these works
13:13and then I am
13:14Like this
13:15have surfaced
13:16these bones
13:17Gianloretto Carbone
13:25Villa Giorgina
13:27apostolic nunciature
13:29of the Papal State
13:31at the Italian Republic
13:33in simple words
13:34resides here
13:36the ambassador
13:36of the Pope
13:37in Italy
13:39in Rome
13:40the look
13:41of all
13:42that until yesterday
13:43he was looking
13:44towards the neighborhood
13:45Saint Lawrence
13:46and towards
13:46the unfortunate one
13:47Desiree
13:49Today
13:50it's pointed
13:51on this
13:51magnificent building
13:53of the neighborhood
13:54Pinciano
13:55with his
13:56immense park
13:57full of plants
14:00ten days ago
14:02in the course
14:03of the works
14:04of remaking
14:05of the floors
14:06of the building
14:07they were found
14:09of the bones
14:10human
14:10then further on
14:11other bones
14:13and Monday
14:14still more bones
14:16be careful
14:19to the images
14:19that we show you
14:20because I am
14:22exceptional
14:23and unpublished
14:24these are the photos
14:25of two
14:26of the three rooms
14:27where it was
14:28removed
14:29deep
14:30the floor
14:31first the tiles
14:33then other tiles
14:35cooked
14:35underlying
14:36then the screed
14:38and finally
14:39the earth
14:41the building
14:42where it happened
14:43the discovery
14:44he is detached
14:45from the complex
14:47central
14:47of the palace
14:48and years ago
14:49it was the home
14:51of the goalkeeper
14:52the construction
14:53it looks out
14:54on Via Po
14:55we are seeing it
14:56has a plan
14:57raised
14:58with large windows
15:00with the grates
15:01and a plan
15:02underground
15:03with windows
15:04smaller ones
15:05at the level
15:06of the sidewalk
15:07the rooms
15:09of which we have told you
15:10showed the photos
15:11I am that one
15:12right-wing
15:12and the central one
15:14behind a
15:15of those grates
15:16there is the room
15:18where they have been
15:19found
15:20human bones
15:21but what is it?
15:23that room?
15:24it's likely
15:26that it is
15:27the central one
15:28of which we have told you
15:29showed two photos
15:31but it's not completely
15:33excluding
15:34that it may be
15:35the room
15:36left
15:40Alvise Memmo
15:42he is a diplomat
15:43retired
15:44who knows
15:45at the point of pointing
15:46life
15:47death
15:48and miracles
15:48of the neighborhood
15:50where he sits them
15:52naturally
15:53he knows a lot
15:54also of Villa Giorgina
15:56and of his
15:57former owner
15:58and that one
16:00it's the famous one
16:01Villa Giorgina
16:02which was given as a gift
16:03from the owner
16:05which was called
16:05Isaiah Levi
16:07in 49
16:08to the Pope
16:09Pius XII
16:12from the words
16:14of the old diplomat
16:15it's starting to come out
16:17the image of a man
16:19with exceptional qualities
16:21Isaiah Levi
16:22unscrupulous industrialist
16:25and brilliant
16:25from a thousand activities
16:27and from the immense heritage
16:29Isaiah Levi
16:31he is of Jewish religion
16:33and with the advent of fascism
16:36from Turin
16:37he moved to Rome
16:38together with his wife
16:40In Cohen
16:41she's Jewish too
16:42in 1925
16:45Isaiah Levi
16:46he joined the fascist party
16:49and becomes richer and more powerful
16:52to the point
16:53that in 1933
16:54is appointed
16:56senator for life
16:59then in 1938
17:00he was very very rich
17:02in 1938
17:04he succeeded
17:05I don't know how
17:06to have it declared
17:08to have himself declared
17:09non-Jewish
17:10even though it's him
17:12that the wife
17:13were Jews
17:15incredible but true
17:17to Isaiah Levi
17:18is granted
17:19the certificate
17:21of Aryanization
17:22in the document
17:24it's written
17:25that he
17:25who is called Abraham
17:27Jacob
17:28Isaiah Levi
17:29and he is married
17:31with Nella Cohen
17:32does not belong
17:33to the Jewish race
17:34but poor Isaiah
17:37he didn't enjoy it much
17:39because then
17:40he had a great misfortune
17:42he had a little girl
17:43who died at the age of 13
17:45who is buried in the summer
17:47in the Levi tomb
17:49and who died of leukemia
17:52at 13 years old
17:53this little girl
17:55in the tragic story
17:57by Emanuela Orlandi
17:58and by Mirella Gregori
18:00that the discovery
18:01of those bones
18:02in that place
18:03he reported
18:04to the mind
18:05of all
18:05here's the break
18:07a kind
18:08of their little sister
18:09in misfortune
18:10lived
18:11many years
18:12before them
18:13we are talking
18:15by Giorgina
18:16the only daughter
18:17by Isaiah Levi
18:18the light
18:19that will restore
18:20its existence
18:21the little girl
18:23that he loves
18:24to madness
18:24Giorgina gets sick
18:26of leukemia
18:28and all the wealth
18:30of his father
18:31it's not enough to save her
18:33Giorgina dies
18:37Isaiah Levi
18:38he dives back in
18:39in business
18:40he was rich
18:41and becomes
18:42ever richer
18:43he was born
18:44as an industrialist
18:45textile
18:46and becomes
18:47banker
18:47producer
18:49cinematic
18:50president
18:50of the house
18:51publisher
18:52Zanichelli
18:53and owner
18:54of the Aurora
18:55the factory
18:56of pens
18:56fountain pens
18:57that the most
18:58elderly people
18:59about us
18:59as boys
19:01they were dreaming
19:02to receive
19:02as a gift
19:03but that's all
19:04useless
19:05the veil
19:06of sadness
19:07that envelops him
19:08from death
19:09by Giorgina
19:10Isaiah Levi
19:11he won't take it off
19:13never again
19:13off
19:14when he buys
19:16that villa
19:16splendid
19:17with a park
19:18of 20,000 meters
19:20full of trees
19:21rare
19:21he calls her
19:22Villa Giorgina
19:26the Germans
19:28in 43
19:29they occupy Rome
19:31and Isaiah Levi
19:32he understands immediately
19:34that the certificate
19:35of Aryanity
19:36which granted him
19:38Mussolini
19:39for the Nazis
19:40it's like
19:41waste paper
19:42therefore
19:43he takes refuge
19:44in the Vatican
19:45under the protection
19:46by Pius XII
19:47and converts
19:49to Catholicism
19:50in 1949
19:53Isaiah Levi
19:55he dies
19:55and as a sign
19:57of gratitude
19:58to have
19:59hidden
20:00to the Germans
20:00him
20:01and many others
20:02Jews
20:03for saving
20:05They
20:05the gas chambers
20:06Isaiah Levi
20:08leaves
20:09to Pius XII
20:10most of it
20:11of his heritage
20:13included
20:14Villa Giorgina
20:19many years later
20:21it will be Pope John
20:23to transform
20:24Villa Giorgina
20:25in that
20:26which is today
20:27or
20:28the Apostolic Annunciation
20:30at the Italian State
20:36Villa Giorgina
20:38to the bones
20:38of the Apostolic Annunciation
20:40they end up
20:41in the laboratory
20:42of the Scientific Police
20:43in there
20:43we are right after
20:45this short break
21:01you are right, you asked
21:02think about how they ask themselves
21:04family members of people
21:05that have disappeared
21:06how is it done?
21:07from a bone
21:08from a fragment
21:09to understand
21:09whose are they
21:10those remains
21:11who do they belong to?
21:12who was
21:13that person
21:14that woman
21:15that boy
21:16then we are
21:17in connection
21:18with Filomen Ararro
21:19in
21:20the laboratory
21:21of the Police
21:22Scientific
21:23you the line
21:26yes Federica
21:28Good evening
21:28we thank
21:30you already did it
21:31we thank
21:31the managers
21:32of the Police
21:33Scientific Police
21:34the Ministry
21:34of the Interior
21:35that they have for us
21:36really allowed
21:37to enter
21:38here
21:39in the laboratories
21:40Where
21:40for a few days now
21:42they are being carried out
21:43the analyses
21:44on the bones
21:45on the bone fragments
21:46found
21:47in the apostolic seat
21:48of the annunciation
21:49of Via Po
21:50and right in the rooms
21:51next to us
21:52and in other laboratories
21:55here adjacent to us
21:56we are working on it
21:58rooms that we
21:59they are not
21:59accessible
22:01Obviously
22:02us
22:03Dr. La Rosa
22:04we can't talk
22:05I imagine
22:06of the case
22:07of the bones
22:09found
22:09in the annunciation
22:11because there are investigations
22:12in progress
22:13Exactly
22:14we can't talk
22:16of this case
22:16specific
22:17as I was telling you
22:18but as he said
22:19Federica
22:20from study
22:20we want to understand
22:21how to get there
22:22to identification
22:23from a bone fragment
22:25how to get there
22:26to give a name
22:26to know
22:27sex
22:28the height
22:29until arriving
22:30to the name
22:32we introduced them
22:33Before
22:34the doctor
22:35Alessandra La Rosa
22:36she is a biologist
22:37of the State Police
22:39and Dr. Grande
22:40of the coroner
22:42It helps us with this
22:43the coroner
22:45which begins
22:46that the work begins
22:47a job
22:48that is done
22:49in equip
22:50Then
22:51naturally
22:52comes to her
22:52so doctor Grande
22:53Here you are
22:54they are found
22:55of the bones
22:56sometimes
22:56of the fragments
22:57small fragments
22:59maybe buried
23:00as in this case
23:02buried
23:02for who knows how many years
23:03how it works
23:05the first thing
23:05what happens
23:06is what is it
23:07you are called
23:08and went to do it
23:09the inspection
23:10Here you are
23:10how it works
23:11well sure
23:11there is an intervention
23:13of the coroner
23:14which is requested
23:15or by the Judicial Police
23:17or by the Magistrate
23:17this always works
23:19in cases
23:19of this kind
23:20in cases
23:21of discovery
23:22of skeletal remains
23:23all the more so
23:24because the skeletal rest
23:25it's suspicious
23:26by definition
23:27especially that one
23:28which is already leaving
23:29as
23:29a remainder
23:31of interest
23:32forensic
23:32Meaning what
23:33what does it have to do with
23:34with a hypothesis
23:34judicial
23:35from that moment on
23:37it's an inspection
23:37for all intents and purposes
23:38the object of the inspection
23:40but they are skeletal remains
23:41they are bones
23:42and it's not a corpse
23:43a body
23:44this is the moment
23:46crucial
23:47in the sense that there
23:47a whole series are fixed
23:49of elements
23:49which concern
23:50the place
23:51of the discovery
23:52the state of discovery
23:53and so on
23:53and then we proceed
23:55until
23:56all these remains
23:57or bones
23:58to say desire
24:00they are collected
24:01that is, they come
24:03findings
24:03and taken to the laboratories
24:04where they begin
24:05of the different phases
24:07the phases that are targeted
24:08to diagnoses
24:09from the generic
24:10up to that
24:11which will come later
24:12the final identification
24:13which is the biological one
24:15so here are the bones
24:16let's say they are brought
24:17here in these laboratories
24:18how do you do it?
24:19to establish
24:20sex
24:22meanwhile
24:22here from the bones
24:23sex
24:24the height
24:25really
24:26the age
24:26so the dating
24:27well look
24:29There are
24:29there are a series
24:31of knowledge
24:32of parameters
24:34known
24:35that they taught us
24:35and they continue to teach us
24:36the anthropologists
24:37especially anthropologists
24:38forensi
24:40there are a series
24:41of indicators
24:41which in fact
24:43they can be useful
24:44to establish
24:45first of all
24:46sometimes
24:46the race
24:47even if with a lot
24:48difficulty
24:49sex
24:50so the difference
24:51of gender
24:52and there are some
24:53marker
24:54so-called
24:54that is, indicators
24:55specific
24:56for example
24:57to understand
24:57if it is a question
24:58of a man
24:59if it is a question
24:59of a man
25:00or of a woman
25:00well the bones
25:02or rather
25:02the bone districts
25:03that make the difference
25:04in this case
25:05I am the pelvis
25:06so the bones
25:07of the pelvis
25:07just to be clear
25:09and if they are missing
25:10the bones of the pelvis
25:11if they are missing
25:12It can be useful
25:14the facial skeleton
25:15if it is also missing
25:16the facial skeleton
25:17we rely on it
25:18DNA
25:19why DNA
25:20can you tell us that too?
25:21then there are others
25:22possible diagnoses
25:23the height
25:24even if a little complex
25:26and needs
25:26of the discovery
25:27of long bones
25:29or even
25:30a sort of diagnosis
25:32of age
25:32which is referred to
25:33to biological age
25:34that is, at the age
25:35of the subject
25:36to death
25:37of a biological type
25:38which is not always the case
25:39corresponds
25:39with the registry
25:40and that has
25:41a whole series
25:42of other indicators
25:43the problem
25:45fundamental
25:45of the bones
25:46of the findings
25:47of bones
25:48of forensic interest
25:49but he mentioned it
25:50she first
25:51is that often
25:52the bones
25:53they are not intact
25:54they are fragmented
25:55they are partial
25:56there may be
25:57mixtures of remains
25:59that is, remains
25:59belonging to multiple individuals
26:01there may be
26:02deficiencies
26:03so shortcomings
26:04of bone parts
26:06or of skeletal segments
26:07fundamentals
26:08for those diagnoses
26:09which she was talking about before
26:11and then a job
26:12particularly complex
26:13it takes
26:14a long time
26:15many days
26:16before arriving
26:17to establish
26:18something specific
26:19it's complex
26:21in the medical-legal field
26:22I dare say
26:23a bit of the tomb
26:24of forensic doctors
26:26and fortunately
26:27we have the geneticists
26:28forensi
26:29that help us
26:30not to slip
26:31in the tomb
26:32Here you are
26:32then you succeed
26:34to withdraw
26:35the quantity
26:37I don't even know
26:38the terms
26:38they are not appropriate
26:40the ones I use
26:40naturally
26:41a material
26:43a quantity
26:44which is then passed on
26:45to the biologist
26:46Right
26:47to be able to
26:48extrapolate
26:49DNA
26:50right doctor
26:51yes exactly
26:51it is clear that there must be
26:53a team effort
26:54with the coroner
26:55as we were saying
26:56precisely because
26:56DNA analysis
26:57it's a destructive analysis
26:59this means
26:59that the piece of bone
27:01which is taken
27:02must be destroyed
27:03to make sure it comes
27:04DNA extracted
27:06and typified
27:06a genetic profile
27:08analysis on a bone fragment
27:10It is one of the analyses
27:11more challenging
27:12for a forensic geneticist
27:13because it depends a lot
27:14from how these bones
27:15have been preserved
27:17from the presence
27:19of high temperatures
27:20high humidity
27:21which may have degraded
27:23Alas
27:24in extreme cases
27:25almost completely
27:26the genetic matter
27:28and there
27:29at that point
27:29the DNA profile
27:31it's not possible
27:32extrapolate it
27:32otherwise
27:34if instead
27:34storage conditions
27:36have been appropriated
27:37the forensic geneticist
27:39can work
27:40on the bone fragment
27:42clearly
27:42it's a procedure
27:43longer
27:44compared to others
27:45finds of interest
27:46normal
27:47for a forensic laboratory
27:49Why
27:49it is made up
27:50of several phases
27:51of processing
27:52a phase of abrasion
27:53mechanics
27:54own
27:54of elimination
27:56of the external part
27:57of the bone
27:57I know that
27:57it is pulverized
27:58somehow
27:59the bone
28:00to be able to
28:01extract DNA
28:04let's segment
28:05the bone
28:05in fragments
28:06of adequate size
28:07after cleaning it
28:09in a manner
28:09mechanics
28:10and with detergents
28:12which follow
28:13also phases
28:14drying
28:14which are very important
28:16otherwise
28:16the next part
28:17which is precisely
28:18the pulverization
28:19that she said
28:19it can't happen
28:20the pulverization
28:21it is necessary
28:22to make
28:24accessible
28:25the entire bone matrix
28:26to detergents
28:27which subsequently
28:28they are necessary
28:29for extraction
28:29of DNA
28:30content
28:31within
28:31of the bone matrix
28:32In short
28:33how long
28:33it takes
28:34For
28:34Meaning what
28:36the exam
28:36of DNA
28:37it's complicated
28:38the exam
28:38in itself
28:39how long
28:40it is necessary
28:41the bone matrix
28:42it's an exam
28:42complicated
28:43normally
28:44if all the steps
28:45I am in the condition
28:46ideal
28:47there is no result
28:48before 7-10 days
28:50and then
28:50a few more days
28:52it is used for comparison
28:53of the genetic profile
28:54obtained
28:55from the bone rest
28:56with the genetic profile
28:58of the person
29:00disappearance
29:01if
29:01this was
29:02extrapolated
29:02from objects
29:03for exclusive use
29:04to this person
29:05or
29:06the comparison
29:06with family members
29:08parents
29:08brothers
29:09but also uncles
29:10as long as they are related
29:11genetically
29:12Obviously
29:13Filomena
29:13but as in this case
29:15for example
29:16Yes
29:17I'm not saying
29:18I thank them
29:19please please
29:20ask the last question
29:21I thank them
29:22I know they have to go
29:23to work
29:23ninth
29:24I just wanted to ask
29:25yes one thing
29:26as in this case
29:28analyze the soil too
29:30where they have been
29:30bury the bones
29:31it's important
29:33Certain
29:34in the inspections
29:36which have been carried out
29:37and which take place
29:38usually
29:39especially in cases
29:40particularly
29:40suspicions
29:41the land
29:42which encompasses
29:44conglobate
29:44the skeletal remains
29:45especially that one
29:46underneath the remains
29:47is being analyzed
29:48from someone who is an expert
29:50of land
29:50and sometimes
29:51even by toxicologists
29:52Well
29:52a few words
29:53the bones speak
29:54they can tell a lot
29:55Federica
29:56At that time
29:57In the meantime, thank you
29:58because it's clear
29:59which in short
29:59we are looking for
30:00to understand together
30:01to you
30:02there's Antonietta
30:03maybe they can
30:05to see on the monitor
30:05which is one of the people
30:07who is waiting
30:08in short the result
30:09on the part of the
30:10scientific expertise
30:11who work
30:12Truly
30:12with great professionalism
30:15but also with the heart
30:16because they know
30:16that are
30:17In short
30:18dealing with a subject
30:19which concerns
30:20really so many family members
30:21Thank you
30:22thank you very much
30:23for having made us
30:23enter
30:24in there
30:25because for us
30:25it's really important
30:27to show
30:27our viewers
30:29At that time
30:29what we understood
30:31that is, we understood
30:31Antoinette
30:32meanwhile it's difficult
30:33which is not a thing
30:34so simple
30:35that it takes a few days
30:36why us
30:37we have next to us
30:38Marina
30:39if they want to go
30:41if they want to go to work
30:41let them go
30:42Filomena
30:43because we are also
30:44worried
30:45that we left there
30:46In short
30:48the people
30:49let's say important
30:51the operators are working
30:52also in this laboratory
30:53I know
30:53I know
30:54Thank you
30:54thanks to you
30:55for this link
30:56At that time
30:57Marina Baldi
30:59takes the DNA
31:00of living people
31:01which is easier
31:02naturally
31:02you with the saliva
31:03in short etc.
31:04the problem
31:04is to take it from the bones
31:06and it's very important
31:07why is he doing it
31:08a database
31:09for the Penelope association
31:11it's not that it's a database
31:12let's say
31:13any
31:14any
31:15or parallel
31:16Why
31:17the Penelope association
31:18he rightly said
31:19it's better to have DNA
31:20of all
31:21he took yours too
31:22but you are
31:23the police
31:24he had already taken
31:25your
31:25he had already taken
31:26first previously
31:27but we had to
31:28take up again
31:29to be at peace
31:30and put
31:31in the database
31:32in the database
31:33by Penelope
31:33so what happens
31:34That
31:35as we said
31:36several times
31:37they are not here
31:38two missing people
31:40there are more missing
31:42then there are other family members
31:43which of course
31:44they made a leap
31:45when they heard
31:46that there were
31:47of the poor remains
31:48what's happening
31:50that for example
31:51at home
31:52by Alessia
31:52Rosés
31:54No
31:54the concern
31:56the fear
31:57anxiety
31:58the anguish
31:58she's back
32:00In short
32:00it's the same
32:01Antonietta's
32:02of family members
32:03Of
32:04by Manuela Orlandi
32:05then let's hear them
32:07Antonio
32:08what happened
32:09to his daughter
32:09Alessia?
32:10we don't know
32:11she disappeared
32:12about 24 years ago
32:13we no longer have
32:15received news
32:16her
32:16no one did it to us
32:18know nothing more
32:19it's like it was
32:21disappeared into thin air
32:22or anyway
32:23as if it weren't
32:23never existed
32:24no one spoke to us
32:26more than her
32:26no one remembers
32:27more than her
32:28nor companions
32:29nor friends
32:30nor anything
32:31we are still here
32:32pending
32:32after the news
32:34of the discovery
32:35of these bones
32:35of the annunciation
32:36you have been
32:38contacted
32:39from the investigators?
32:41Absolutely not
32:41nobody called us
32:42no one told us
32:43Nothing
32:43we have always talked about it
32:45of Orlandi
32:46because rightly so
32:47the scenario
32:48that's it
32:49of the Vatican
32:51of the Gregory
32:52Also
32:52but
32:53given that
32:54we are two steps away
32:55Anyway
32:56Montesacro
32:56Via Povone
32:57there's nothing wrong with it
32:58to exclude everything
32:59it would be good
33:00have this answer
33:01as soon as I heard it
33:03he took me
33:03a heart-shaped cup
33:04because every time
33:06what do you feel
33:07this news
33:08you think
33:08Alessia
33:09where is it
33:10what is it doing
33:12and then
33:13every time
33:14let's start again
33:15from the beginning
33:16everyone
33:16the news
33:18they feel
33:19they all feel it
33:20Understood
33:21and then every time
33:22start over again
33:24whose they can be
33:25you are interested
33:26to know
33:27if she's your daughter
33:28if it isn't
33:29but
33:30I'm 24 years old
33:32I'm 24 years old
33:33there are many
33:35I think that
33:36if
33:37if he was alive
33:38something
33:39something
33:39it was known
33:40but nothing
33:41it just disappeared
33:44Marina Baldi
33:45them too
33:46you have some
33:47Alessia's
33:48yes yes
33:49this bank
33:49clearly
33:50this is what it takes
33:51not in a manner
33:53consistent
33:54because wanting
33:55the police
33:55he can do it
33:56very quickly
33:57but it is needed
33:58even a little bit
33:58of stimulus
33:59knowledge
34:00that anyway
34:00we collect
34:01this material
34:03and that families
34:03I'm always in action
34:04always present
34:05it's important
34:06for them too
34:07Why
34:08the scientific one
34:09he doesn't work
34:09only
34:10on some material
34:12inert
34:12but he works
34:13for families
34:14so it's very useful
34:16have also
34:16these contacts
34:17and now
34:18we make you feel
34:19a girl
34:20very sweet
34:20she is the daughter
34:21by Magdalena
34:22a mother
34:22very young
34:23very nice
34:24that disappears
34:25she too
34:26from Rome
34:27every time
34:29That
34:30I hear news
34:32like this one
34:33of findings
34:34Of
34:35corpses
34:36nameless
34:39inevitably
34:40I think of mom
34:42let's say that
34:43that's an area
34:45Where
34:46they happened
34:47several things
34:48not only did it take place
34:50my life as a child
34:51and my mother's life
34:53at that time
34:54a woman
34:55very nice
34:57he was busy
34:58of photography
34:59when she disappeared
35:01it was always
35:02a woman
35:02very nice
35:03he was 48 years old
35:04there are certain things
35:05That
35:06they keep asking
35:07their
35:09truth
35:10one of these
35:11own
35:12what happened
35:13to my mom
35:14Where
35:15what happened to him
35:16what happened to him
35:20thanks to you
35:21that you continue
35:22to
35:23bring
35:24to the attention
35:25of people
35:25Despite
35:26the ash
35:27of the wind
35:28let's place it
35:29the dust
35:29the memories
35:30they get confused
35:32the lives
35:33they continue
35:34nevertheless
35:36there are lives
35:36broken
35:37suspended
35:38as
35:39the one that
35:41he lived
35:43my mom
35:44I
35:45continuous
35:46to carry on
35:47the light
35:47of my mother
35:48and then
35:49I would like
35:51know
35:52have some
35:53news
35:54her
35:56Thank you
35:57what a beautiful person
35:58how does he say it?
35:59he is a person
36:00exceptional
36:01Truly
36:01At that time
36:02mystery
36:03on mystery
36:03Before
36:04we were talking
36:05also of the collector
36:06of bones
36:07do you remember
36:08those bones
36:08who came
36:09found
36:09Magliana style
36:11they composed
36:11a skeleton
36:12but in reality
36:13there were more people
36:14a job
36:15five people
36:16it was a job
36:16crazy
36:17Marina Baldi
36:18and I don't know if you remember it
36:20but there was a document
36:21next to those bones
36:22a document
36:23of a gentleman
36:24who had disappeared
36:25right from that neighborhood
36:26the Magliana
36:27but the bones
36:28they didn't belong
36:29to that gentleman
36:29and think
36:31that that gentleman
36:31he was a bricklayer
36:32for the Vatican
36:34for companies
36:35who worked
36:35in the Vatican
36:36I tell them all
36:38then tomorrow
36:38who knows what
36:39let's read
36:39but
36:40there is also
36:41this mystery
36:42of this gentleman
36:43who has disappeared
36:44from Rome
36:44and he worked
36:45suggestive
36:46this thing
36:46because he was a bricklayer
36:48for the Vatican
36:49At that time
36:50I
36:51the Vatican
36:52among other things
36:53he wanted
36:53underline
36:54something important
36:56Francis Paul of the King
36:57this evening
37:00Yes Federica
37:01he intervened
37:02he made a statement
37:04the Secretary of State
37:05Peter Parolin
37:07saying that there is none
37:08no connection
37:09made by the Vatican
37:10between the discovery
37:11of these bones
37:12and the story
37:14by Emanuele Orlandi
37:15the case of Emanuele Orlandi
37:16I wanted to read to you
37:17precisely the words
37:18what Parolin said
37:19in this regard
37:20upon discovery
37:21of the bones
37:21we have immediately
37:23warned
37:23the Rome prosecutor's office
37:24he declared
37:25the Secretary of State
37:26Vatican
37:27for reasons
37:28simply
37:29of transparency
37:30Why
37:31there are none
37:32recriminations
37:32on the fact that
37:33the Holy See
37:34have held
37:35hidden something
37:36things get done
37:37with the greatest openness
37:38and greater transparency
37:40they were found
37:41of the remains
37:42it was wanted
37:42to know exactly
37:43what was being done
37:45whose they were
37:46and then
37:47it was asked
37:48help to Italy
37:49this is the statement
37:50of the Secretary of State
37:51Peter Parolin
37:52then this is important
37:53that is, the Vatican says
37:54us with transparency
37:55we found some bones
37:56we said
37:57look immediately
37:58whose are they
37:59because if not
37:59it seems like we want
38:00to hide who knows what
38:01so one thing
38:02made with transparency
38:03and they say
38:03we the bones
38:04we found them
38:05but we didn't say
38:06they can be by Manuela Orlandi
38:07or by Mirella Gregori
38:08then we say
38:09it is the power of attorney
38:10there was an opening
38:11in this sense
38:12I have to say there was
38:13an opening
38:14because they, after all
38:15that's their territory
38:16so the bones
38:17if they could hide them
38:18instead with great transparency
38:20in short they have changed
38:21many things
38:21then we'll see them
38:22they said
38:23we are together
38:25us
38:25and the scientific police
38:27let's see who they belong to
38:28they put it though
38:29the Vatican
38:30their consultant
38:31that is, a consultant
38:32who is a professor
38:34very important
38:34Professor Giovanni Arcudi
38:37working
38:38at Sapienza
38:39Torvergata
38:40a person
38:42a luminary
38:43how do you say
38:43very well known
38:44in this sector
38:46and the Vatican
38:47he took
38:48Professor Arcudi
38:48as a consultant
38:50then listen carefully
38:51his interview
38:51because if
38:52let's say
38:52they were buttoned up
38:54rightly
38:54by the scientific police
38:56the Vatican's consultant
38:58he tells us things
39:00very important
39:01because you have read
39:02of everything and more
39:03and he puts
39:04in short, some stakes
39:05important
39:06on what they are
39:07doing
39:08on what has been done
39:09on what is known
39:10to date
39:11last night's interview
39:13of our analysis
39:14Sales
39:17Professor Arcudi
39:18from the first analyses
39:19would emerge
39:20what is it about
39:21of bones
39:21of a person
39:22between 25 and 35 years old?
39:24No, no sir
39:26this is news
39:27baseless
39:28it's a fact
39:31in fact
39:32of discredit
39:33which was
39:33I don't know from what
39:34it was
39:35proceeds
39:36I tell you
39:37what's the situation like?
39:38current
39:39at this moment
39:40we have
39:41started
39:42just from yesterday afternoon
39:43we have
39:44started
39:45in the sense that
39:45the scientific police
39:47in my presence
39:48he started
39:49the operations
39:49for Italy
39:50and we did
39:51exclusively
39:52until today
39:53the washing
39:54of the bones
39:55the police
39:56of the bones
39:57we have
39:58given
39:59of the champions
40:00of bone structures
40:02naturally
40:03to the laboratory
40:04of genetics
40:05Always
40:05of the scientific police
40:07and they were
40:08also dates
40:09set up
40:10to be given
40:11other bone structures
40:12which will be used
40:14to a laboratory
40:16specialized
40:16Always
40:17in the context
40:17of the scientific police
40:18which is
40:20person in charge
40:20and can do
40:21of the investigations
40:22to establish
40:22the weather
40:23of burial
40:24of the bones
40:25in that structure
40:26in that land
40:28in that context
40:28where it was found
40:29if we want to be
40:32adherents
40:32to the scientific idea
40:35of the investigations
40:35up to this point
40:37we can only say
40:38that you can't
40:40at present
40:41to do some
40:42sex diagnosis
40:44on those bone structures
40:45it can't be done
40:47on those bone structures
40:48any
40:49age diagnosis
40:50that they are not
40:51simple
40:52inference
40:53or hypothesis
40:54which are not founded
40:55on scientific evidence
40:57everyone can do it
40:58the hypotheses he wants
40:58I can do it too
40:59the hypotheses
41:00but I don't give it to her
41:00as a hypothesis
41:02results
41:02from the investigations
41:03scientific
41:04in progress
41:04I think he can see
41:05but this is one thing
41:06easily
41:08intuitive
41:08professor
41:09from the same vision
41:10of the bones
41:10you are able
41:11to establish
41:12antiquity
41:14for example
41:14if they are
41:15of provenance
41:16from the catacombs
41:17that are there nearby
41:18which are not archaeological
41:20it has already been established
41:22archaeological
41:22it means
41:24archaeological
41:24if not, the power of attorney
41:26he wouldn't even have
41:26investigation opened
41:27the first thing
41:29that will be known
41:29it will be the DNA
41:31Yes
41:33I would confirm yes
41:34she is a consultant
41:36of the Vatican
41:37what does it mean
41:38it means that
41:39the Vatican
41:40he nominated me
41:41as his consultant
41:42to follow
41:43the operations
41:44what will he do
41:45the scientific police
41:46on Italian territory
41:48because how does he know them?
41:49this case
41:50which obviously left
41:52from the territory
41:53Vatican
41:54which was within the jurisdiction
41:55of the authority
41:57Vatican
41:58the authorities
42:00Vatican
42:00they thought
42:01in my opinion
42:02very correctly
42:03to entrust
42:05to intervene
42:06the prosecutor's office
42:07of the Republic
42:07Italian
42:08which obviously
42:09he took it in hand
42:11the situation
42:12he took it in hand
42:13the investigation
42:13and proceeded
42:15regularly
42:15with the investigation
42:16how to solve it
42:17appointing one's own
42:18consultant
42:18or their own consultants
42:19more than one
42:20there are many families
42:22of missing persons
42:23what are they doing
42:24the countdown
42:25who are waiting
42:26it's a big responsibility
42:28his too
42:28I understand this well
42:30we understand it well
42:31that's why
42:32that must be given
42:34prudence
42:35and calm
42:36in delivering results
42:38because they could be done
42:39or false expectations
42:40or false negatives
42:41in the sense that it is said
42:43but not a hope
42:44and then she gets disappointed
42:45from the fact that it is
42:47not the 25 years
42:48which is one thing
42:50ball
42:51it doesn't exist
42:54In short
42:55it's an important thing
42:56what Arcudi tells us
42:57Obviously
42:59because there are two states
43:00the Vatican
43:01and Italy
43:02one with a joke
43:03could say
43:03the Vatican
43:04he gave the bones
43:06to Italy
43:06but he doesn't trust me
43:07then more than that
43:08and then he puts it there
43:08the consultant
43:09the Vatican's consultant
43:11but look
43:12I am
43:13that's a palace
43:14it's an embassy
43:15of the Vatican
43:16it's a state
43:17in the state
43:17the Vatican
43:18it's inside
43:18the city of Rome
43:19they are bones
43:20that so now
43:21somehow
43:23must be studied
43:25but this
43:25it's really important
43:27and it is necessary
43:27both from the authority
43:28let's say
43:29Italian judiciary
43:30but anyway
43:31the Vatican's consultant
43:32there must be
43:33because it could also
43:34to be one of the Vatican
43:35In short
43:36that is finished
43:36also because I want to say
43:37if I am not
43:38Mirella
43:39or Emanuela
43:41or any other missing person
43:42anyway a body
43:43that is there
43:43it's certain
43:44and it could be
43:45someone
43:45In short
43:46That
43:46the investigation must be done
43:48then I thank
43:49Marina Baldi
43:50and I ask
43:51to the
43:52Mauro Valentini
43:54if you want to sit down
43:55with us
43:55why now
43:56us
43:58with Mauro Valentini
43:59let's do another one
44:00path
44:00which is important
44:02look
44:02among other things
44:03we have some documents
44:04unpublished
44:04thanks to him too
44:05so what happens
44:06just a few days ago
44:07before it happened
44:08All
44:08this pandemonium
44:10around these bones
44:11actually
44:12you are presenting
44:14this book
44:14that we show you
44:15Mirella Gregori
44:16chronicle of a disappearance
44:18written precisely
44:18from the colleague
44:19journalist and writer
44:20Mauro Valentini
44:22At that time
44:22I
44:24let's go in
44:25in those years
44:26we are in 1983
44:28I repeat
44:29there is a Vatican
44:30different
44:31it's not the Vatican
44:32of now
44:33that takes the bones
44:34and with great transparency
44:35he gives her
44:35the Italian judicial authority
44:37these are the years
44:38by Marcinkus
44:39then we want you
44:39show these photographs
44:41unpublished
44:42it's a Marcinkus
44:43who is in a restaurant
44:45who smokes
44:47who drinks
44:48who is with other people
44:49why we show them to you
44:51why are we entering
44:52Truly
44:52in these years
44:53a little dark
44:54because for Marcinkus
44:56really
44:56the arrest was requested
44:57then he went back
44:58in the United States
45:00he cared about it
45:01to say that he was coming
45:02from the country
45:02by Al Capone
45:03he made use of
45:04really casual
45:06some money
45:07of the Iorra
45:08he was the president
45:08of the bank
45:10of the Vatican
45:11but what's happening
45:12he comes
45:14involved
45:15in the kidnapping
45:16by Emanuele Orlandi
45:17and by Mirella Gregori
45:19for some accusations
45:20which are really
45:20ugly
45:21very heavy
45:22which are those
45:23by Sabrina Minardi
45:25which had been
45:25the woman
45:26by De Pedis
45:26which as you all know
45:27in short it was very close
45:29this criminal
45:30of the band
45:30of the Vagliana
45:31to the Vatican
45:32what does he say
45:34Sabrina Minardi
45:36all that
45:36is archived
45:37from the prosecutor's office
45:38of Rome
45:38why do they come
45:39investigate
45:40of people
45:40and yet
45:42Sabrina Minardi
45:42what does he say
45:43she says that she
45:45among other things
45:45Marcinkus
45:46he knew him well
45:47I don't know if we can
45:47to show also
45:48the sentences
45:49at least that way
45:50I read them
45:50In short
45:51with you
45:52here it is
45:53then he says
45:54That
45:58on request
45:59by De Pedis
46:00she had brought
46:01of the girls
46:02to Marcinkus
46:03and that he
46:05In short
46:05he was entertaining himself
46:06with these
46:07girls
46:08In short
46:08bad stories
46:10naturally
46:10the ugliest
46:11it's the second part
46:12what does he say?
46:13Always
46:14Minardi
46:14that is, he says
46:15that even
46:16Emanuele Orlandi
46:18it was
46:18when she was kidnapped
46:19he was brought
46:20in an apartment
46:21in Torvajanica
46:22and in this apartment
46:24within
46:24the cardinal
46:26Marcinkus
46:27in these photographs
46:28that we showed you
46:29I don't know if
46:31our direction
46:32you can choose one
46:33we darkened
46:33a woman
46:34who has hair
46:35dark
46:36blacks
46:36naturally
46:37we went
46:37I doubt
46:37to watch
46:38but it's not that
46:39It's Sabrina Minardi
46:40No
46:40because then
46:40it's all been archived
46:42but
46:43I have to tell you here
46:44I don't see anything at all
46:45not even the flare
46:46that we put
46:47but
46:47In short
46:47on the right
46:48there is a woman
46:49let's see another one
46:50with dark hair
46:51And
46:52here it is
46:53now you can see it a little
46:54you see it on the right
46:56actually we
46:56our Raffaella
46:58notary
46:59he called
46:59Sabrina Minardi
47:00he said
47:00but you went there
47:01in that place to eat
47:02she confirms
47:03but he says that there is never
47:04gone with Marcinkus
47:06I don't know if
47:07someone else
47:07it is recognized
47:08in these photos
47:09then we will make them for you
47:10see
47:11Now
47:12so in short
47:13let's talk
47:15of times
47:16dark
47:17dark
47:17for the church
47:18what happens now
47:22an interception
47:23by Raul Bonarelli
47:24which is part
47:25of the gendarmerie
47:26and then
47:27let's say
47:28of an important part
47:29of the Vatican
47:30you've heard it a little
47:31everyone
47:32more than anything else
47:33read all
47:33that is when
47:34about Manuela Orlandi
47:35he is told
47:35if he is questioned
47:36about Manuela Orlandi
47:37Right
47:38Manuela Valentini
47:38shut up
47:39don't say anything
47:39that we never have
47:42I made investigations
47:44investigations
47:44we don't know anything
47:45etc.
47:46but in the book
47:47note by Manuela Orlandi
47:48There are
47:50of wiretaps
47:51that we had read
47:52to our colleagues
47:53as usual
47:54that are interesting
47:55why Raul Bonarelli
47:56he's on the phone
47:58with his wife
47:59and it is
48:00a phone call
48:01after a day
48:02for him
48:02dramatic
48:03why is it called
48:04in the prosecutor's office
48:05the magistrate
48:06who is a woman
48:07you have to question him
48:08and he thinks
48:09naturally
48:09who will be questioned
48:11own
48:11on the disappearance
48:12by Manuela Orlandi
48:15go there
48:16naturally
48:16there is tension
48:17it's understood
48:17that make him wait
48:18they make him wait
48:19for a long time
48:20and then
48:22the surprise
48:23Here you are
48:24the interrogation
48:25he explains it
48:26what happens
48:27to the Mondi
48:29he made me
48:30the interrogation
48:31it was more than anything else
48:32for the thing
48:32for that other one
48:33not Orlandi
48:34what is his name
48:35that other one
48:35and what does he want?
48:36that other one
48:37it's because
48:38it was received
48:39when the Pope
48:39he went to the parish
48:40there
48:41and the mother
48:42he recognized
48:42he came out
48:43the other time
48:44in the newspaper
48:45of one of the security
48:46of the Pope
48:46what he had
48:47he woke up his daughter
48:47at the bar
48:48think about it
48:49these have gone back up
48:50to me
48:50I don't know how
48:51they came back to me
48:51you can see that they are
48:52went to the parish
48:53to question the parish priest
48:54the parish priest
48:55must have done
48:56my name
48:56because I don't know
48:57I as the judge
48:58instructor
48:58it came back to me
48:59but
49:01I told you
49:02I who found you
49:02in the midst of trouble
49:03I gave my version
49:05then a woman
49:06you will understand
49:06she wasn't convinced
49:07you know he organized
49:09of the statements
49:10she wasn't convinced
49:11he organized
49:12the comparison
49:12with the mother of what
49:13he made it come
49:14the other one's mother
49:15who was sick
49:16with the escort
49:17with everything
49:17at two o'clock
49:18at 1.45pm
49:19to make the comparison
49:20that's how he saw me
49:21he said
49:22No
49:22it's not him
49:23think about it
49:24that I don't know
49:25I have to find myself
49:25in these situations
49:26but then the judge
49:28and after?
49:29then he made me
49:30oh well
49:31then you can go
49:32I did it to him
49:33oh well
49:34thank goodness I can go
49:37then the judge
49:38who is a woman after all
49:39is adhering
49:41is that it is adhering
49:42the examining magistrate
49:43At that time
49:43Mauro Valentini
49:44actually
49:46Antonietta's mother
49:48recognizes
49:50let's say
49:50this man
49:51which is part
49:51precisely
49:53of the Pope's escort
49:54of the Pope's escort
49:55I mean it's not that it was
49:57the parish priest
49:58but he recognizes her
49:59from a service
49:59from Tg3 Lazio
50:00he doesn't know
50:02that the recognition
50:04it didn't happen
50:04at the parish priest's call
50:06but it comes directly
50:08from mom
50:08by Antonietta
50:09Victory
50:09that on December 15th
50:11of '85
50:12while attending
50:14to a visit
50:15of the Pope
50:16at the parish
50:18of St. Joseph
50:19recognizes
50:20this man
50:21he recognizes it
50:22like one
50:23who spoke
50:24two years ago
50:25then in 83
50:26the year of his disappearance
50:28of the daughter
50:28with the girl
50:31Sonia
50:31the best friend
50:33by Mirella
50:33and with Mirella herself
50:34so what happens
50:36that adhering
50:36eight years later
50:38the report
50:39of the mother
50:39by Antonietta
50:41decide
50:42to do
50:43a comparison
50:44eight years later
50:45probably
50:46then he says it
50:48also in this interview
50:49because his mother
50:50because your mom
50:51era
50:52already very sick
50:53very sick
50:54At that time
50:54so the mother
50:55who sees first
50:56in the Tg3 Lazio report
50:58he says
50:58Mom recognizes him
51:00on video
51:00but in front
51:01when it is found
51:02in front of the person
51:02suddenly
51:03he says
51:04it's not him
51:05but what's happening
51:06all these things
51:07have been archived
51:08they are part of history
51:09but anyway
51:10we do the news
51:11and then above all
51:12your sister
51:12we still have to find it
51:14so yes it is our right
51:15speaking
51:15what's happening
51:16that Raul Bonarelli
51:18in this conversation
51:20which continues
51:20in this interception
51:21he is intercepted
51:23for the case
51:23by Manuela Orlandi
51:24anyway he doesn't know
51:25of being intercepted
51:26he's always talking
51:27with his wife
51:27and says one thing
51:29in our opinion
51:30very important
51:31listen
51:34okay, we'll talk about it later
51:35at your convenience
51:36now I'm going to eat something
51:37because I got nervous
51:39I kept myself very calm
51:41that at times
51:41he caught me
51:42when he told me
51:43then you can go
51:44at this point
51:45and he didn't ask him
51:47it's over
51:47it's over
51:49yes it's over
51:50Excuse me
51:50we made a comparison
51:52with mom
51:52since it was her
51:53what he had said
51:54which was one
51:55of the Pope's safety
51:56which he had recognized
51:57and she told him
51:58it's not him
51:58so it's over
51:59and who is this
52:00of the Pope's safety
52:02that she recognized
52:03this longing
52:04poor woman
52:05oh poor woman
52:06a damn
52:07for me one
52:08for me
52:08it's one of those
52:09that was around there
52:10that period
52:11one of those
52:12who also collaborated
52:13he had some
52:14three or four
52:14of these handymen
52:15the priest
52:16No?
52:18At that time
52:18these handymen
52:20has it ever worked
52:21on these handymen
52:22us with Antonietta
52:23when we have
52:23there are also other documents
52:25in this book
52:25but when we found this
52:27I have to say
52:27we jumped
52:28from the chair
52:29maybe it had escaped
52:30however he never had
52:31this great relief
52:32media
52:33and yet he is there
52:34gives a clue
52:35investigative
52:36extraordinary
52:37because he speaks
52:37of three or four
52:39handymen
52:39who collaborate
52:41with the priest
52:41someone like him
52:42that in this same
52:45interception
52:45he allows himself to say
52:47I believe it too
52:49that he knows everyone
52:50that the environment knows
52:51then he worked
52:53in the Vatican gendarmerie
52:55so that kind of environment
52:56I'm not talking about the Vatican
52:58but the church
52:59anyway the outline
53:00of his experience
53:02he lived on Via Alessandria
53:03which is practically
53:04behind the Gregoris' house
53:06he says
53:06there were those three or four
53:08handymen
53:08that in Rome
53:09the handymen
53:09I'm a little
53:10the factotums
53:11the helpers
53:12but also
53:13and of course
53:14and one wonders
53:15Who are these handymen?
53:16even the bag carriers
53:16let's say
53:16they can be bag carriers
53:18they must not be preys
53:19Exactly
53:19no in the sense
53:20Obviously
53:21the handymen
53:21they are those
53:23but the thing
53:24surprising
53:25it's that you don't go
53:26the next day
53:27I think
53:27to ask
53:28back to Bonarelli
53:30who are these
53:31because maybe
53:31we could
53:32even ten years later
53:33going back to who he was
53:34who helped the priest
53:36in '83
53:37maybe go back up
53:38to an investigative lead
53:39which was
53:39very important
53:40also because
53:41Raul Bonarelli
53:42precisely it comes out
53:43everything is archived
53:44and exits the scene
53:46but anyway
53:47he said this thing
53:48and then he says
53:49I was not recognized
53:50but he could tell us
53:51who were these four
53:52handymen
53:53Antonetta
53:54I wanted to make you feel
53:55to our viewers
53:56the whole phone call
53:57that has reached us
53:57because there is a part
53:58that we
53:59we censor
54:00actually we censor
54:01that part
54:01because it's offensive
54:02towards
54:03of the parents
54:04by Emanuella Orlandi
54:06but it's the part
54:06which concerns
54:07your sister
54:08the famous one
54:09phone call
54:09that comes to us
54:10which is buried
54:11in the Basilica
54:12of Saint Polinare
54:13that we wouldn't be there
54:14never arrived
54:15if he didn't get there
54:16that phone call
54:17I have to say
54:17we were not
54:18so clever
54:19you can see it at the time
54:20instead it was important
54:21Why
54:22Basilica
54:23of Saint Polinare
54:24Frauto
54:25Emanuella
54:26De Pedis
54:27In short
54:30let's hear it well
54:31because there is a part
54:32that we don't have
54:33let's say
54:34transmitted
54:34and you will understand why
54:38Regarding the fact
54:39by Emanuella Orlandi
54:40to find
54:40the solution
54:41of the case
54:41go and see
54:42which is buried
54:43in the grip
54:43of the Basilica
54:44of Saint Polinare
54:45and of the favor
54:46that Renatino
54:47he did to the Cardinal
54:47Poletti
54:48at the time
54:48and ask
54:49to the bartender
54:50of Montevallo
54:51that even the daughter
54:52he was with her
54:53with the other Emanuella
54:54and the parents
54:54by Emanuella
54:55they know everything
54:56but since
54:57you are silent
54:57you won't say a damn thing
54:58as usual
55:02since you are silent
55:03the silencers
55:04it will be us
55:05we won't say anything
55:06actually
55:06we this part
55:07but
55:08we said it
55:09this whole phone call
55:10we sent it
55:10on air many times
55:11we didn't put it
55:12this part
55:12we have Montebello
55:13what is it
55:14your bar
55:14Certain
55:15there is the famous bar
55:16bar where there was
55:18the inauguration
55:19the day before
55:21our bar
55:22the bartender
55:23by Mia Montebello
55:24he is definitely my father
55:25he's your father
55:25so it refers
55:26to your father
55:26ask your father
55:27of the other
55:28it is not clear
55:28but what
55:29somehow
55:30puts together
55:32puts us together
55:33but
55:33he never specified well
55:36I don't know what
55:37we hit the mark
55:37with this person
55:39since still
55:39we didn't understand
55:41why did he call us
55:42who is
55:42In short
55:43if once
55:44then he decides to come forward
55:46No
55:46if still
55:46he is still healthy
55:48thanks Antonietta
55:50Thank you
55:50thanks to Mauro
55:51thanks to Mauro
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