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00:00So, the bones of the annunciation, look, it was a mystery, the first headlines are by Emanuela Orlandi or by Mirella Gregori,
00:08They are from the caretaker's wife who disappeared, in reality the caretaker's wife hadn't actually disappeared.
00:14This evening we are happy because we have Professor Arcudi, good evening Professor, who is the Vatican's consultant, that is, the
00:22Vatican found these bones because they were in the embassy,
00:26so it was Vatican territory and we said they gave it to the Italians with great transparency, they arrived
00:34men of the scientific police, they took away these bones,
00:38but the Vatican rightly said we should put our consultant there because Professor Arcudi cannot be trusted.
00:45No, the consultant's function is not to control the work of others but also to support them and we work
00:53everyone from everywhere, we stand for the scientific truth,
00:57so I don't think of my role as one of control over the actions of others.
01:03The Vatican spy, Professor Arcudi, absolutely, but there's no point.
01:06To make her smile, which has remained with us, there is no matter.
01:11Listen, Professor Arcudi, do you want to take this journey through these chapters of history before speaking to you?
01:18of bones in scientific terms?
01:22Actually, now we are trying to understand more because professor someone said they are not by Emanuele Orlandi, not
01:28They are by Mirella Gregori, now nobody talks about them anymore,
01:30if they belong to any Christian, who cares, but no, they will be.
01:36I don't think that will be the case.
01:37It won't be like that, in the sense that it is being sought.
01:39The investigation continued, we have just begun.
01:41You've just started and then perhaps too much news came out too soon, no, before you had any certainties.
01:47Well, I would like to start with, for me it's touching to hear Federica Orlandi, we have always known Natalina, her brother
01:56Pietro, the mother, but there are two other sisters.
01:59And Federica was the sister who received the last phone call from Emanuele Orlandi, because Emanuele went to music school,
02:06you know, he had met a guy who had offered him a job.
02:10So what does she do? She calls home, looking for her mom because she wants to ask permission.
02:16We hear from Federica again, who received Emanuele Orlandi's last phone call.
02:23I was at home, Emanuele called her because he wanted to talk to mom, because he told me that while he was going
02:33at the music school she had been stopped by a man,
02:39who was a representative of Avon, and had asked her if she was interested in doing this work of leafleting, of promotion
02:48of the Avon.
02:49And they would have given her a compensation of around 300 thousand lire, I think it was said.
02:55And clearly I told her that 300 thousand lire seemed truly impossible to me, that they could give her for a day
03:03of work,
03:06even if it was in a fashion show, even if it was a prestigious place, but...
03:13And that's it, the phone call ended because she wanted to ask her mom's permission to do this job.
03:22and the only thing he told me was that this person would wait outside the school to know if she accepted or
03:31unless you do it.
03:34Why would he have to do it right away?
03:36No, the following Saturday.
03:38The following Saturday?
03:40Saturday afternoon.
03:44Obviously we didn't imagine, no one imagined what could be behind it.
03:53So there is a man who is waiting for the girl, who is only 15 years old, that's for sure, because c
03:59'it was this phone call.
04:01Professor Arcudi, they are sisters, they are relatives, there was the father before Roberto Straccia, who are being hit, right?
04:09You, as a medical examiner, have a huge responsibility, because then they fall back into the nightmare,
04:15at a certain point some bones are found, they could be Emanuele Orlandi's, they could be Mirella Gregori's,
04:20but there are families there who return to the nightmare.
04:22Certainly yes, but the point is that the discovery of skeletal remains always raises important questions to be resolved,
04:32because it is clear, if they are human they belonged in life to a person who has family members, who has relatives, brothers, sisters.
04:41So the answer we have to give is an answer of truth, that is, trying to understand from those bones
04:48what we can say, what the family members want to know, in terms of identity, above all, right?
04:55That is, do they belong to this or not?
04:56And then we do, as it was in this case, so he is doing in this case,
05:01all those investigations that are usually carried out when skeletal remains are found.
05:05The problem is that when you find remains, unless they are of soldiers, from catacombs,
05:12but also of soldiers, these are the remains of a person who has disappeared and therefore we need to provide an identity.
05:19Listen, Arcudi, I was saying before, with great transparency, the Vatican has decided to give these bones to the Italians,
05:26he said, well, you check it out, right?
05:28But here we are talking, Emanuele Orlandi, but also Mirella Gregori,
05:33of years, let's say, that are distant, that are also dark.
05:36That's why I was telling you, if you still want to see what we have, like this, you know, found today.
05:41These are dark years.
05:42What's going on, by the way?
05:43That the investigations, some investigations have been done,
05:45and one, the last one, was the one that the Magliana band carried,
05:50led Minardi to say that the girl, Emanuele Orlandi,
05:54had been delivered to Monsignor Marcinkus.
05:58So, who is Monsignor Marcinkus?
06:00He is the president of the IORC, that is, the one who has the keys to the safe,
06:04who can, in short, easily take the Vatican's money.
06:08According to the prosecutor, Emanuele Orlandi, Sabrina Minardi's statement is not reliable,
06:15and, of course, one can think now,
06:19but it is possible that someone who was the head of the IORC could have, thus, decided to have with him a
06:28little girl for a few hours?
06:30But it must also be said, it is possible that they have put in charge of the IORC a man who seems all
06:36'anything but a man of the church.
06:37We interviewed, listen to this interview, because it is particularly interesting.
06:42Francesco Pazienza, a former agent of the SISMI, of the secret service,
06:47He is a complex man who went to prison for many years,
06:51he said that they had, let's say, fabricated evidence against him.
06:57But let's now hear what he says to Chiara Cazzaniga about Marcinkus.
07:03He says, the church wanted to get rid of the head of the IORC, in a way that was anything but Pious.
07:12In her book she writes that at a certain point they called her from the Vatican to find some evidence,
07:19in short, something compromising against Marcinkus.
07:22Can you confirm this for me?
07:24100%.
07:24Tell me what happened, who called you?
07:27A monsignor called me, I won't mention his name because he's still in his career,
07:34who was very close to Cardinal Casaroli.
07:38And what did she ask him?
07:40Documents that were compromising for Marcinkus.
07:45And she went out of her way and found these documents in a lawyer's safe?
07:51In Zurich.
07:53And when he found these documents, however, he did not bring them to the person who asked for them, but to Marcinkus.
07:59Exact.
08:00May I ask you why?
08:02Because at that time I thought Marcinkus was much more useful for what he was doing,
08:09because I was still an idealist and I thought that the East-West clash was valid and above all because Marcinkus was
08:20helping John Paul II in the fight against international communism.
08:25So at that point she didn't want to put him in a bad light?
08:29No, because if Marcinkus had been removed John Paul II would have found himself without an operational financial source for the
08:45his war on international communism.
08:47When she brought these documents to Marcinkus, how did he react? What did he say to her?
08:53Like people in power do. Look, he said to me, did you pair them up? No.
09:06And he said to me, you're a man of your word, I'm a man of my word.
09:10Point.
09:12These are crazy times, consider that what Francesco Pazienza finds has nothing to do with Emanuele's disappearance
09:19Orlandi because he found it a year or two earlier in 1981.
09:22But it makes us understand, then the Vatican will respond if it wants, it makes us understand what happened before.
09:28Instead now there is a new course and everything has changed, precisely these bones that are given with great transparency.
09:34Because in reality the Annunciation, that is, the Vatican Embassy, ​​could have kept those bones, right, Arcudi?
09:41Ezzoli, yes.
09:42It was their territory, so they could call them.
09:45He could have done it.
09:48He could have done something like that.
09:50But it is a choice that was made for transparency, which I agree with because it is better to do the investigation like this
09:58than doing them yourself.
10:00Because this way we do them not only with full transparency, but also perhaps with greater results.
10:05With greater results.
10:06Results, the ones we are trying to achieve.
10:09Also because they are currently being processed in the Scientific Police, in the Scientific Police office.
10:15I go there to attend, to work.
10:17The Scientific Police technicians are of an excellent level.
10:20So the Scientific Police laboratories are of an excellent standard.
10:24So we confidently await the results that will clarify things for us.
10:28Meanwhile, these results should disprove the main hypothesis that has been floated.
10:35Moreover, this hypothesis was initially floated without any evidence that could support this hypothesis.
10:43But the results that will arrive, in the meantime the first ones, it seems those that have arrived, are of a completely different direction than the
10:51'hypothesis of the two girls.
10:53Listen, professor, what I've understood is that it's complicated.
10:58Let's proceed in order.
10:59I would finish with patience first.
11:01But do you know why?
11:02Because we have photos of Marcinkus.
11:04Since it's in a restaurant, they are particular photographs and there is a woman, Mora.
11:09Naturally, I repeat, Marcinkus entered the files of Emanuele Orlandi's investigation
11:14because Sabrina Minardi, who was declared unreliable, had said that Emanuele Orlandi had been brought to her.
11:21However, Chiara Cazzanica, she patiently showed these photographs,
11:24since he met Marcinkus, to see if he could tell us who the diners were at this restaurant.
11:32Can I ask for a favor?
11:34We have photographs of Marcinkus in the company of people we don't know.
11:40We broadcast these photographs, of course, obscuring the faces of people we didn't know.
11:45I have the originals. Can I show them to you?
11:51No, no. I've always met Marcinkus alone.
11:59So, these photographs remain a mystery, these acquaintances, we go from '83 to today.
12:06What I understood is that these bones certainly cannot be those of Emanuele Orlandi and Mirella Gregori
12:11because they predate the ban on nuclear experiments, on nuclear tests,
12:19because these bones would have in themselves, let's say, a presence of radiocarbon
12:23which is usually in a human being, in the bones of a human being,
12:27before the ban, because before that there were these nuclear tests.
12:31Arcudi, but we didn't understand anything.
12:34That is, have we ruled out that Emanuele Orlandi and Mirella Gregori are these bones or not?
12:39From the results, preliminary as they may be, that have arrived up to now,
12:45It would seem so. The laboratory results tell us...
12:51Caserta.
12:52No, from Caserta, the one that determines...
12:54Carbon 4.
12:55...that it is a pre-64.
12:57Now let's say why this date exists and what it means.
13:01The genetics lab tells us that they have isolated the Y chromasome and therefore it should be male.
13:06Obviously, these are preliminary results that need to be further investigated.
13:11But above all they will then have to be, so to speak, supported and compared with the results that will have to come.
13:18and these are the main results from the morphological examination of the bones, which then tells us the truth.
13:23Because the laboratory can also make some mistakes, not in this case because it is difficult,
13:28but he can make some mistakes.
13:29Once we complete all the investigations, we will give the final answer.
13:33The speech of the...
13:36I don't think it's related to determining the age of a bone, it's not related to the atomic explosion, no.
13:44In the human body, carbon C14 degrades as we progress after death.
13:50Over time, we release it.
13:52In the corpse.
13:53It degrades.
13:54Measuring this degradation allows us to say how many years have passed since the bones were produced,
14:00not of the death of the person, of the production of bones.
14:04But, you see, the measurement of C14, I'm speaking in general, not in this case obviously,
14:09It is a measurement that allows us to measure long periods, that is 50 years, 100 years, 200 years, it does not go to 3, 4,
14:165 years.
14:17We can't say before 64, to be precise, we could say before 65.
14:23In fact I said it after 64.
14:25After 64 it means it can be 40, 30, 25, 80, 800, that is, not
14:31we know.
14:32Because that is a type of measurement, the methodology of which I don't yet know,
14:37so I'm waiting to know and see it, which is based on the calibration of an instrument that they have.
14:45I think they will have to continue to achieve more significant results.
14:50So, I thank Professor Arcudi, it's complicated for us, isn't it?
14:55What we have understood, in short, is that we have this carbon 14 in our bodies,
15:01we release it when we are dead, the more we release it means the later we die.
15:07However, this is not the most important investigation that is carried out in these houses.
15:10But, well, anyway, a man, then if it comes to mind, precisely, in this range which is after 40,
15:16because there had been these nuclear experiments in Bichini Atoll until '63, because after that, you know, some disappearances...
15:24But do you know what it is?
15:25In those years there was an important event here: there was the war.
15:29Of course.
15:29And if you dig in Rome, and I have personal experience of it, you always find skeletal remains, even
15:37Now.
15:38You can imagine that in the past years, I have made dozens of discoveries, therefore the skeletal remains.
15:43So it's not a wonder that these bones are there, it's that we have to give an answer why they are there
15:50there...
15:50It's not precise, also because now we have to give it to the families, because otherwise it's much ado about nothing,
15:55there are families there who are back in the group.
15:57But even if it's not by Manuel Rolani, even if it's not by Veneta, that is...
16:00And someone else's, but anyway there...
16:01It will be someone's...
16:02Alcudì, we went to the catacombs of Santa Felicita, so we also tried to say, look, let's be careful.
16:08But I thank you, Alcudì, but I have to say that we have to start all over again, from where it all began.
16:15We made you hear Federica who received the call from her sister, but a few days before also Federica,
16:23Manuela Orlandi's older sister was approached.
16:27She was also approached by a man who offered her a job and this man got involved with another
16:34terrible story,
16:36which is that of a young university student, Paolo Fattori with Francesco Paolo del Re.
16:47At the Rome Police Headquarters. My name is Alfredo and I'm a university student.
16:52While waiting for a job, I responded to some ads in the newspaper.
16:55We were looking for people willing to deliver commercial and editorial advertising materials.
17:00I showed up for the appointment. They took me to a villa in Sacrofano, where I was supposed to pick up the materials.
17:06But there they offered me a drink and I remember very little.
17:11Nude photos of me in the company of women and men have been published in pornographic magazines.
17:16I'm leaving with a heart full of pain.
17:19Have mercy on me and my family and restore the truth.
17:22University student Alfredo hangs himself at the gate of the Villa della Vergogna.
17:27We're at the gates of Rome. No one has forgotten that young man.
17:35So where was the boy found?
17:37He was found by me, around two in the afternoon.
17:41So really at the gate in front of his house?
17:43It was the gate in front of my house.
17:45It wasn't a good impression, it certainly leaves a very bitter taste in your mouth.
17:50I saw a young man dying.
17:53Now I'm at an age where when I talk about these things I get nervous and emotional too.
18:00But this happens to all old people.
18:04Hanging on the gate of this villa.
18:06Alfredo wrote down the reasons for his actions.
18:10I'm killing myself because I hope this gesture will move the honest part of the nation.
18:14I'm killing myself because I hope a rediscovery of values ​​is possible.
18:18I kill myself because even the wonderful act of love has been reduced to a bestial act under the pressure of
18:24drug.
18:25Who drugged the student?
18:27Who took those photos in positions that made them feel ashamed?
18:31There is a name in his letter.
18:34Felix.
18:39I showed up at an appointment in Piazza Cavour in Rome to speak with Mr. Felix, an advertising agent.
18:44At the appointment Mr. Felix, who was with two other girls, told me to go with his driver to
18:50the company headquarters,
18:51which was located in a villa in Sacrofano, to speak with the director, a certain Mrs. Inge, whose whereabouts I don't remember
18:56the surname.
18:59So it seems that Alfredo has to do some leafleting work.
19:02The intermediary for this work is Mr. Felix.
19:06The young man, together with two girls, finds himself in the villa of Sacrofano.
19:11We were shown into a small sitting room where we waited for about an hour.
19:14At a certain point the host, a certain Ettore, served us an aperitif,
19:19which once drunk gave us all a sense of euphoria for which the girls undressed
19:24and we men, invited by them, made love.
19:28The drug is working.
19:29Alfredo, stunned, doesn't realize he's being photographed while having sex.
19:34There are women and other men.
19:36It all becomes one big orgy.
19:38I didn't suspect the photo shooting, but rather Mr. Ettore's voyeuristic tendencies,
19:43a short guy with long hair and a mustache and a goatee.
19:49A few months later, those photos appear in a pornographic weekly.
19:53For Alfredo, who thought he had only found a job handing out flyers,
19:57It's too much of a shame to bear.
20:00But who is Felix?
20:02Who is Inge, the director?
20:04Who is Hector?
20:05Ettore is actually the photographer.
20:08Together with her friend Inge and a certain Daniele, she rented the villa.
20:12The police are looking for him to understand what happened.
20:15After a few days, the photographer shows up at the police station.
20:18He says that Alfredo went to the villa spontaneously.
20:21and he took the photos just as spontaneously, complete with sexual performances.
20:26Nobody gave him drugs.
20:29Alfredo, however, can no longer reply.
20:31He hanged himself.
20:33But five years later, that same photographer was arrested for drug trafficking.
20:38Heroin and cocaine were found in his home.
20:46And Felix?
20:47Who is Felix?
20:49A name you won't forget.
20:51And Federica Orlandi hasn't forgotten it either.
20:54There are only a few days left until the disappearance of Emanuela, the little sister.
20:58And Federica is approached by a man.
21:01Before Emanuela's disappearance I was approached by this person
21:07who then told me his name was Felix.
21:09I was on the bus and he stopped me and asked me if I was interested in being an extra.
21:15for a film they were shooting in Civitavecchia,
21:18The last days of Pompeii.
21:21They would have paid 100,000 euros a day.
21:24100,000 lire?
21:25100,000 lire, yes.
21:27100,000 lire per day.
21:30And nothing, he insisted a little that I do this kind of work.
21:37But oh well, clearly I didn't accept it,
21:39but he wanted to leave me his phone number.
21:42So I wrote it down on a piece of paper and he told me his name was Felix,
21:47who was a film agent, who also worked as an extra
21:51and that his job was also to look for extras for films.
21:56It would have been, he says, a clean film.
21:59Clean he told her?
22:00Clean, yes.
22:02I mean, maybe someone could think that, he says, no, who knows what film he can suggest to me.
22:08No, the title itself told me, Last Days of Pompeii.
22:12He also took my phone number.
22:14I gave him mine because he says, maybe I'll call tomorrow to see if you've changed your mind.
22:18But I never call home.
22:22I remember that he had glasses, quite thick glasses.
22:26I remember this one, slightly long, black hair, around thirty, more or less.
22:35Who is this man approaching Federica Orlandi?
22:38Here are the minutes of the time.
22:40His name is the same as Alfredo's, Felix.
22:43It is the same man who delivers Alfredo to the photographer in the villa in Sacrofano.
22:49It's him who speaks to Federica a few days before Emanuela's kidnapping.
22:53By the way, my boyfriend at the time, who is now my husband,
22:59I had also told him the episode and he was talking to some friends,
23:04it turned out that this friend of his had also been, let's say,
23:09approached by a certain Felix who proposed that she act as an extra in a film.
23:18But they are not the only ones approached by that man.
23:21There are many girls.
23:22There's also Maura.
23:24Felix offers her an advertising service,
23:26but she discovers it is a porn film and manages to escape.
23:29We tried to find out more about it.
23:32We are in the historic San Lorenzo neighborhood of Rome.
23:36He doesn't live here anymore.
23:37There is an old trattoria in front.
23:39Let's see if he remembers it.
23:42She was a bartender.
23:44What was she like?
23:45She's cute.
23:47In short, a beautiful girl.
23:49Beautiful brunette, curly.
23:52Girls who tell their bad adventure.
23:55Stories with happy endings.
23:56But how many other young people were recruited and perhaps deceived?
24:01Let's move on.
24:02The investigation into the Orlandi case continues and investigators discover a post office box registered to Felix.
24:09It is in this post office that investigators seized pornographic material.
24:13We are on Via delle Termini di Diocleziano, near Piazza della Repubblica and the Termini section.
24:18Not far from here, about a kilometer, beyond the Termini of Diocletian, there was the bar of
24:25Mirella Gregori.
24:27Felix stops Federica Orlandi around Termini station.
24:31Here is his mailbox where the pornographic material was found.
24:36Not far away there is also the Gregori family bar.
24:40Is it possible that Felix also stopped and met Mirella?
24:44Felix is ​​not a fictitious name.
24:47That's exactly what it's called.
24:49Sometimes he introduces himself as Canadian, other times as Polish.
24:52Polacco knows at least three languages ​​very well, Italian, Polish and English.
24:57He is a man who moves well between the neighborhoods of Rome.
25:00He's engaging and clever.
25:02He's looking for girls with the illusion of fame.
25:05There was this myth of being an actress, right?
25:09So maybe they offered him, come and audition,
25:13We give you the chance to become a star.
25:17Girls who are perhaps unprepared, a little inattentive,
25:21they let themselves be enchanted, they went to do these auditions, etc.,
25:25and then maybe the bad thing would have happened there.
25:28But was it still widespread in those years?
25:30Well yes, the news was that there were several cases.
25:34People who were somehow involved in the world of cinema
25:38or at least they would have wanted to get in, in short.
25:43Rabble anyway.
25:45Doctor Margherita Gerunda was the first magistrate
25:48to deal with the Orlandi case.
25:50The trail that also started from Felix was followed.
25:53Here's how he answered us.
25:55The first hypothesis, immediately after having ascertained
25:58that there was no possibility of voluntary removal,
26:02it was that she had been kidnapped for rather sordid purposes.
26:08And so the investigations began with this hypothesis of crime.
26:13That is, kidnapping for the purpose of lust, as the code states.
26:20The investigators are therefore following the lead of kidnapping for the purpose of lust.
26:25and they are also looking for this Mr. Felix.
26:28They were looking for him because of Alfredo's suicide
26:30and they look for him during the investigation into the disappearance of Emanuele and Mirella.
26:34And they go to his friends' houses.
26:36We are actually looking for a person
26:39who perhaps you met many years ago.
26:42Mr. Felix.
26:43Yes, Felix, he never answers you.
26:47They came to his house to search it.
26:49Do you remember this?
26:51They asked me if I liked races.
26:54In short, they had suspected that she had played a role in that story.
26:58But then I am valid.
27:00If I had been suspected, I would have been happy.
27:04You were just a beginner.
27:05But does she have nothing to do with this story?
27:07Of course it has nothing to do with it.
27:08Talking to him, we discover something important.
27:11We have confirmation that Mr. Felix, who lures girls,
27:14he is the same man known to the young Alfredo, who committed suicide.
27:18But she doesn't remember a story about a boy
27:21who hanged himself on the gate of a villa?
27:24Why did they take pornographic photos?
27:26Oh, I heard.
27:27And in fact Felix, out of vanity, said that...
27:33Because his mother had seen him naked in photographs, yes.
27:36Felix, out of vanity, boasted that he had caused this event.
27:40But yes, that was it.
27:41How?
27:43I don't know, that he photographed it, that he had it photographed.
27:46So he also took photographs?
27:48No, but...
27:50So, Mr. Felix is ​​the recruiter.
27:54But where is it now? What happened to it all these years?
27:56We don't know.
27:58We know that Dr. Gerunda was quickly removed from the investigation.
28:02And then, among other things, there was also an atmosphere around that I didn't like much,
28:07with all these people chatting too much,
28:09which is why it was not possible to carry out a series of investigations.
28:12So, it's not like I had much intention of being, so to speak, exploited.
28:21Here you are.
28:22So, given this point, I decided, well, do as you please,
28:28If you're good, unfortunately investigations don't always end well.
28:37Felix returns to the shadows, leaves the Orlandi investigation, but reappears in 1996.
28:44Ah, ah, ah, beautiful Polish women wanted.
28:47Rome police arrest a man.
28:49He is accused of smuggling young Polish girls into Italy
28:54and, after a careful selection, starts them off working as housekeepers,
28:57as a nightclub go-go dancer or makes them work in the porn world.
29:01In exchange, he wants a percentage.
29:03A real businessman.
29:05He always shows up with a driver.
29:07Do you know what it's called?
29:09Mr. Felix.
29:10It's the same Mr. Felix that poor Alfredo knew.
29:14and who approached Emanuela's sister?
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