- 6 hours ago
John and Bob examine how the “guru model” shapes religious authority, prophetic movements, revival culture, and the New Apostolic Reformation. The discussion traces how personal perspective, spiritual status, media platforms, competition, and institutional protection can transform gifted leaders into untouchable figures.
The conversation moves from family systems and religious conflict to radio preachers, healing revival history, William Branham, the Latter Rain movement, Gordon Lindsay, the Shepherding Movement, Kansas City Fellowship, and the dangers of confusing revelation, charisma, influence, and biblical authority.
00:00 Introduction
00:27 Exploding Heads And Opposite Reactions
01:42 Why Perspective Becomes Conflict
03:00 Conflict, Rigidity, And Competing Perspectives
04:59 The Guru Illustration
05:32 How Leaders Slap People Spiritually
06:00 Why Religious Figures Create Polarized Reactions
21:00 The Prophet And Apostle As Guru In The NAR
30:00 Radio, Television, And The Rise Of Media Authority
45:00 Latter Rain, Branham, And The Voice Of Healing Guru Problem
48:00 Multiple Gurus And Competing Ministries
54:00 Kansas City Fellowship And The Influence Pie
57:00 Ego, Status, And The Failure Of The Guru Model
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The conversation moves from family systems and religious conflict to radio preachers, healing revival history, William Branham, the Latter Rain movement, Gordon Lindsay, the Shepherding Movement, Kansas City Fellowship, and the dangers of confusing revelation, charisma, influence, and biblical authority.
00:00 Introduction
00:27 Exploding Heads And Opposite Reactions
01:42 Why Perspective Becomes Conflict
03:00 Conflict, Rigidity, And Competing Perspectives
04:59 The Guru Illustration
05:32 How Leaders Slap People Spiritually
06:00 Why Religious Figures Create Polarized Reactions
21:00 The Prophet And Apostle As Guru In The NAR
30:00 Radio, Television, And The Rise Of Media Authority
45:00 Latter Rain, Branham, And The Voice Of Healing Guru Problem
48:00 Multiple Gurus And Competing Ministries
54:00 Kansas City Fellowship And The Influence Pie
57:00 Ego, Status, And The Failure Of The Guru Model
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Bob Scott,
00:00:45former co-founder of the Kansas City Fellowship and the author of three books. The latest is
00:00:50Some Said They Blundered, Breaking My Decades of Silence on Mike Bickle,
00:00:54the Kansas City Prophets, and the International House of Prayer.
00:00:58Bob, it's good to be back and to talk about things that make people's heads explode.
00:01:04That is, I have come to terms, I have all these series, right, and I've got all these names
00:01:09for the series. I think yours and I should probably be named the Exploding Heads.
00:01:15We were talking briefly, I haven't told you this yet.
00:01:17That would be a great graphic. Two guys with their heads going.
00:01:22Exactly. So last week, I haven't told you this yet, but last week I got this person who heard
00:01:28our John Paul Jackson podcast and just went totally, their head exploded.
00:01:35Yeah.
00:01:35I can't believe that this was said, you know, they went on, and from their point of view,
00:01:39I understood their point of view.
00:01:42Right.
00:01:42I kid you not, not an hour later, I got another one from the mother of a victim, which I
00:01:49won't
00:01:49go into the details about the victim, but from the mother of a victim just praising us for
00:01:55what we did and what we said and the stand that we took.
00:01:58And both were talking about the same subject matter, both from different perspectives,
00:02:04and I really felt both of them. So I'm, when I talk about Exploding Heads, it's actually
00:02:09mine. My head is like, well, which way do I go?
00:02:14Well, that's what you're bringing up. The dynamics that you're talking about is a dynamic that
00:02:18I actually am quite familiar with on two fronts, family counseling and then racial reconciliation,
00:02:25because I deal with both of those. In both of those worlds, you have the same dynamic. And
00:02:31what I'm talking about is, is when you bring a family in for counseling, especially if they're
00:02:36teenagers, you get into that age group, right? Where there's a little experience and you asked
00:02:41everyone to tell their version of an event, you get five different versions and each of them
00:02:49insist that their version is correct, right? And they're all in the same room at the same event,
00:02:56seeing the same thing, right? And so that early on in my career made me kind of go, huh, how
00:03:03can that
00:03:03be? I mean, I was of the mindset at that point, wait, there can only be one truth, right? And
00:03:09you
00:03:09realize that actually perspective, and that's where I got into that whole concept of perspective and
00:03:17what it meant and how it works and how to manage that. Because the problem with it, and this is
00:03:26where it gets tricky, which I don't know if you've run into this, but it becomes conflictual, right?
00:03:33So it's not just that we have two different perspectives. People get angry and start attacking
00:03:40each other that you're lying, or you're stupid, or you're this, or you're the devil, or you're the,
00:03:50right? It's like we literally kick into these, you know, these extreme emotional responses when
00:03:57someone has a different perspective. Unable to stop and think about it for a second, wait a minute,
00:04:04all of life is like this. And as we were talking earlier, it seems like for some reason in so
00:04:12many
00:04:12aspects of our life, we're very good at navigating diametric forces, good and evil, up and down, in
00:04:20and out, right? There's all these truths or principles or whatever that we exist in, and they're
00:04:26diametric, right? They're the exact opposite. And we're like, I talk about, it's like the little
00:04:31balance bar on your stereo, right? It's like, in this situation, I need a little bit more to the
00:04:36left. In this situation, I got to go a little bit more to the right. I need to move towards
00:04:40that
00:04:40extreme, right? Or, you know, not all the way over, but a little bit, right? And so we adapt.
00:04:46But then we get into these other situations where suddenly we become rigid, right? Somebody has a
00:04:52different perspective, and instead of us going, oh, interesting, why do you have, you know, we don't ask,
00:04:58why do you have that perspective? We go, you're wrong. And instantly, the thing digresses into
00:05:06conflict. Instead of this, well, maybe we are both seeing the same thing from a different
00:05:13perspective. What if they're both right? What if both of us have had this experience? And so,
00:05:20especially when it relates to religious figures, I have such polarizing perspectives that get shared
00:05:27with me about people. Oh, I do, too. It reminds me of, you know, there's a Saturday Night Live skit.
00:05:34I don't know if you've seen it, but they go to the mountain, they see the guru on the mountain,
00:05:38and
00:05:39they say, ask for his wisdom. And he says, what is the sound of one hand clapping? And the guy
00:05:47gets
00:05:47closer, and he smacks him real hard across the face. Well, if you look at what's been created in this
00:05:53movement, you've got all of these people who, they feel like they're trying to create this guru-type
00:05:59atmosphere, and the people are the one bearing the brunt of whatever it is that they're giving.
00:06:04The people are literally getting slapped by the leaders. Well, the problem is, because they've
00:06:08been slapped, that's how they're trained to adapt. Well, what happens to us who talk about it? We get
00:06:15slapped verbally by some of the people, and it's this chain that just never seems to end.
00:06:22Ironically, we actually got a request that we do a podcast about gurus, so the whole thing kind of
00:06:28applies. Well, there we go. Let's go to the mountaintop and meet the guru. Whenever I think
00:06:35about going to the mountain to a guru, usually it's your face that I picture up on the mountain. I
00:06:40just
00:06:40want you to know this. Oh, my goodness. I don't know. Now my head's too big. No, I think one
00:06:47thing
00:06:47that's important for this conversation is let's define guru, or guru, or however you say the word,
00:06:54and my reason for that is, is because it's the same concept with a different name across just about
00:07:01every religious vocation, or denomination, or sect, or whatever, right? So, we're talking about the same
00:07:08type of figure. So, guru, what do you think? I mean, in my world, a guru is like a teacher,
00:07:14right? It's a wise person who we go to for advice, like a rabbi, or... It's interesting because the
00:07:22model has different shared attributes around cultures. When you think of the word guru,
00:07:30you're usually thinking of the Indian, the Hindu, which you're talking about, the great guru on the
00:07:35mountain. But that model seems to apply to several different cultures. And basically,
00:07:40it's the idea that there is an all-knowing, all-spiritual, all full of answers person that
00:07:48you can go to. And they are the one that their answer is better than everybody else's answer.
00:07:55Swami. Isn't that another one? Swami?
00:07:58Yeah. I mean, there's different names across different faiths.
00:08:01It's the enlightened one, right? It's always the enlightened being.
00:08:05Oh, yeah. And what's interesting is, if you look at the Protestant Reformation,
00:08:10they were sort of bucking that type of system. Because the Catholic Church,
00:08:15even though they didn't have gurus, they had adopted that kind of model.
00:08:18Yeah, the Pope was that. He was, right? His word was God's word.
00:08:23His word was God's word. And so Martin Luther, and this was about the time that the printing press
00:08:28was able to take off and help with this. But they started getting the Bible in the hands of the
00:08:32common people, and no longer was there a guru. And so Martin Luther would have strongly condemned
00:08:37everything that he sees in the charismatic world today.
00:08:40Yeah, I'm sure he's slipping over in his grave, going, I did this? No, no, no, no, no, please.
00:08:47It's like, how do I get the genie back in the bottle? You guys are way off the reservation here
00:08:52now.
00:08:52Yeah, he would have a hard time with where things are now.
00:08:56Yeah, and what's interesting about it is, why do we humans need those kind of people?
00:09:03And the reason I'm bringing that up is because, I mean, and I hope I'm not ADDing on you here
00:09:11and taking it on another road. In the Swami guru world of modern ministry, one of the dynamics I'm
00:09:22finding right now is how these guys think they're indispensable. Like, you need us to be gurus.
00:09:30Like, you need us to do that. And you see what I mean? It's like, there's two sides of this.
00:09:37There's
00:09:38the narcissistic guy who's so desperately trying to be something, so he positions himself as that
00:09:45person, right? I'm the all-knowing one. I mean, Mike did that. Well, he didn't initially because he had
00:09:51his evangelical roots, but the more he got infiltrated mentally with the whole prophetic
00:09:58thing and that whole latter rain ideology and perspective, he became more guru-ish.
00:10:05You know what I mean? He became much stronger. And the stories, by the way, changed from,
00:10:11I had an impression. I was taken to the third heavens and God revealed to me, right? And I
00:10:18watched this metamorphosis, you know, over 30 years, right? Going from the story over here to
00:10:25where it ended up over here. But it's all surrounded around what you're just talking about, this guru
00:10:31mentality. Like, I am the enlightened one. I am the, you know, I'm Paul the apostle. I was taken to
00:10:38the
00:10:38third heavens. God showed me directly, right? Then, on the converse side of that, there's all these people
00:10:45that need him to be that, right? And so, we were talking about this yesterday with a group of guys
00:10:52that I was hanging out with, and it's like, who needs Mike Pickle? I mean, I'm not picking on Mike,
00:10:58but I mean, it's like any of these other guys, right? Jimmy Swagger went down in the 80s. You know,
00:11:05Jim Baker went down in the 80s. It was the end of the world. Christendom was over. You know,
00:11:11life goes on. It's amazing how, you know, how dispensable they all are. And yet, in their minds,
00:11:18they're indispensable. You know, it's a subject I've not really covered because I know it, and I
00:11:25assume falsely that everybody understands the guru model. Because you see it on movies, you see it on
00:11:31TV. You see it in cartoons. I watch cartoons, and I see these things, right? But I don't – based
00:11:36off
00:11:36of the person who was writing me and asking that we do this, I get to thinking about it, there
00:11:42are
00:11:42an awful lot of people that don't understand the model, or they would probably never go as far as
00:11:48they have with Christianity to apply it. If you read the introduction to the Gospel of John,
00:11:53in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, that has kind of lost its meaning in today's
00:11:59world. Because you have all these ministers that hold up the Bible and says, this is the
00:12:02Word of God. And people, when they make that association, they're taking that phrase and
00:12:08they're applying it to the Bible, but that's not really what's being said there. Basically,
00:12:13it was – it's almost a rebuke of all of the other philosophers. It says, Jesus came with
00:12:18the perfect word, or the perfect philosophy. Jesus came – and it was more than just philosophy.
00:12:23It was so many things bundled into this term, the Word. But when you look at the model of
00:12:28Jesus and his disciples, well, if you go to any of the ancient Near East religions, you
00:12:34had the guru and you had their disciples, and so there was a hierarchy. And then the
00:12:38common people could go to the disciples to learn more what the guru said, so there was
00:12:42a chain of command. Well, Jesus upended all of this when he says, I'm going to send my
00:12:48Holy Spirit, and this will be the teacher, the guide to you. What has happened is, in the
00:12:54modern world, they try to apply the guru model, the model where there is the people who are
00:12:59in the inner circle of the elite. The elite has the ultimate Word of God. But instead
00:13:04of letting the Holy Spirit be the one to teach and guide, they say, well, the Holy Spirit spoke
00:13:08through me. I'm the one. And by default, that also means that the Holy Spirit isn't speaking
00:13:15through the congregation because they have to have the leader. So in the model, basically,
00:13:19it has taken everything that Jesus upended with the philosopher model, and it is trying
00:13:25to reestablish that through apostles and prophets.
00:13:28So let me throw something in there in the discussion pot here and see what you think. I feel
00:13:34like there's a historical perspective to this that revolves around education. And what I mean
00:13:43by that is, is up until what, the last 150 years or more, the vast majority of people couldn't
00:13:52read or write. In the ancient world, you probably had one to 10% of a population that could actually
00:14:00read or write. And so it created for centuries, I mean, this is why this is so fascinating to me,
00:14:08because the concept of the Bible, the environment that written or being experienced in is a time
00:14:16when the vast majority of the people could not read or write. And so what they did was they
00:14:22defaulted or deferred to the educated one. You know, in the Jewish culture, it was the rabbi,
00:14:29right? He was the teacher. You know, the Buddhists had their guys, right? But you had,
00:14:34it was always this one person who was more educated, more well-read, more experienced. And so
00:14:44people defaulted to that, right? What's fascinating in our lifetime, and then went on steroids in 2000,
00:14:53was the influx or the implementation of the internet, right? So suddenly now we're in this
00:15:01interesting social dynamic where we don't actually need a guru. We don't actually need the default,
00:15:09right? Suddenly now we're, you know, Jesus talked about the Holy Spirit falling, and you can know
00:15:15yourself, well, you know, the spirit of IT's fallen. And so now we all have access to knowledge,
00:15:23right? This is, I want people to understand this is unparalleled in human history.
00:15:29In your life, in our lifetime, in the last 26 years, this happened, right? It's being taken now
00:15:37to a whole nother level with AI. I'm living in a world right now, I don't know if our listeners
00:15:44are
00:15:44like this, but oh my God, you can't even go to a restaurant conversation anymore without somebody
00:15:50pulling out their cell phone going, ChatGPT, what about this? Claude, what about that? Like,
00:15:56it's like everybody's asking the guru, well, the guru right now happens to be some sort of an IT
00:16:03machine, right? That's the new guru. And it's funny, because it's happened in the last 12 months
00:16:11in my world, and I just laugh about it. It's like, oh my God, we got to defer to the
00:16:15IT guru now.
00:16:17So, but to your point, there's this, it's like this old model that's been entrenched in civilizations
00:16:24for thousands of years, right? And now what's happening is technology is actually changing the
00:16:33game to where people feel less and less inclined to default now to a guru. I don't need to, and
00:16:41that's
00:16:42causing some problems, because as we've talked about previously, there is another dynamic that
00:16:48plays into human history, which is a few humans always want to control everyone else. This has
00:16:56never not happened, ever, in human history. It's been there, that sin nature we got, that propensity
00:17:03for status and stuff, that lust for that has caused us to need or want to control others. And how
00:17:12it's
00:17:13always happened is through technology. The few want to control the many. And we're still in a struggle
00:17:18for this right now, right? And so what's happening is I'm seeing it more and more. So where does this
00:17:25play
00:17:26in our world right now? Right now, there's a whole movement against guys like you, who are accusers of
00:17:34the brethren, right? You're evil. Why? Because the gurus don't like that you, Toto, pulled the curtain
00:17:42back, you know, and behind there, you're revealing that they're feeble old men. Don't mind the man behind
00:17:48the curtain, right? And so the gurus are all being threatened right now with exposure. They don't
00:17:56like that because they've had control for so long on the narrative.
00:18:00Well, it's deeper than that. So there's another problem that not many people think through,
00:18:05which is a problem that exists with the guru model. And that is, if you understand the concepts
00:18:11of psychology, you understand how flawed the guru model can be. So let me give you a basic example.
00:18:18If I were to write a book and I were to have a sentence structure that said,
00:18:21he ran quickly along the path towards the grocery store. That takes an entirely different meaning
00:18:30that if I change one or two of those words and say, he fell paralyzed on the way to the
00:18:36grocery
00:18:36store, they have two completely different meanings. Well, in the ancient world, like you said, there
00:18:41were many people who could not read, a majority couldn't read. So you had to go to the guru,
00:18:46you had to go to the person who is leading you, teaching you, guiding you. When with the introduction
00:18:52of the Bible, what they did was they had people who were copying because there was no printing
00:18:57presses. And remember, there's a lot of Greek symbols. And with the Greek symbol, you can have
00:19:02just a little tick. And the word may change so much that the entire sentence is different,
00:19:08just with a little tick. There were people who could write, but not read, because you can easily
00:19:14see a square, you can copy. Yeah, you can copy. Yeah, you're basically copying. So what ended
00:19:19up happening, there's some statistics out there, but there are more variations in the text than there
00:19:24are words in the text in the New Testament. And it's because of this problem, right? So people who
00:19:30are KJV only, they say, we must have this exactly. Well, you build a doctrine off of the exact verbiage,
00:19:37and you find out they found errors in the KJV, for example, you find that you built this entire
00:19:42doctrine on the wrong pathway. Now add to that the level of complexity that comes with what we
00:19:48talked about earlier. Two people hear the same thing and have two different ideas, polar opposite.
00:19:55One hates it. This is the devil. Bob should never have said this. One loves it. Bob's a saint. Bob
00:20:01is
00:20:01the man on the mountain. But I look at this not in a way that points fingers to either sides,
00:20:09because either side can be different and yet still be true in what they're saying. In other words,
00:20:16their perspective is that something was said, and they both took it a different direction. Now,
00:20:22picture those people, if they had a leadership personality, a charismatic personality, and decided
00:20:30we're going to go off and we're going to spread the message of whatever it is we agreed with or
00:20:35disagreed with, and they've gained a following. Now you've got a following that's based off of
00:20:40the perspective, and you've got two polar opposite followings. In the personality and the makeup of
00:20:47the personality of human beings, you have people who are leaders by nature, and inwardly they are
00:20:54destined to become a leader because that's how they're wired. You have people who will never become
00:20:58a leader because they don't want to. They're followers. You have supporters. You have all these different
00:21:03categories of personalities. Usually it's the leadership personalities that will go off in one
00:21:09direction and form a sect. The sect may not be inherently bad. In that example that I gave,
00:21:15two people had their same perspectives, and they think that they are speaking holy and just, and they
00:21:22can gather a following around them. Well, both followings can't be all bad. They're neither bad nor
00:21:28good. They're based off of a perspective. So with the guru model, you are looking towards the
00:21:35perspective of one single person, the guru. And the way that the people hear the guru and interpret
00:21:42it, their perspective of that guru leads them down a pathway that if you have two gurus, you can have
00:21:48two
00:21:48different pathways, right? Now broaden that concept to the apostolic reformation. The prophet is the guru.
00:21:55The apostle is the guru. And you have all of these competing prophets and apostles in the NAR
00:22:00saying that we're the wise old person on the mountain. We are not going to allow you to look
00:22:05at the internet and look at the people saying that they have a different perspective. Well,
00:22:10they gain a following that goes in two different directions. In the end, what direction are they
00:22:14headed? Is it headed towards Christianity? Is it headed away? In many cases, it's neither.
00:22:19It happened during the reformation, right? So for people that may not be familiar with this,
00:22:26because it's not talked about, because Luther's version of the reformation dominated. But for
00:22:34people that may not be aware of this, so Luther's in southern Germany, and him and his group, they're
00:22:42trying to reform the Catholic Church, right? So when he nails his theses on the door, they're
00:22:49basically saying, hey, you gurus out there in Rome, you know, we need you to relook at things here,
00:22:56blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Well, just to the west of them, or southwest is Switzerland.
00:23:02There's a whole group of guys down there that agree with Luther. But they go, their perspective is,
00:23:08hey, wait a minute, you're trying to reform the church. We're not sure it's reformable. And the
00:23:15truth of it is, if we're going to do this new thing, we need to re-baptize ourselves,
00:23:21right? Because baptism is the sign of your loyalty to the cause. And so they're sitting
00:23:29there in Zurich, or wherever it was, Conrad Grebel was the main leader of the group. They walk over,
00:23:34grab a ladle, because he didn't have running water in those days, so he had water in buckets. So they
00:23:39grabbed this ladle, poured water over each other at breakfast, recommitted their lives to Christ,
00:23:45and then all got killed because they did that by the other leaders of the Reformation in Germany.
00:23:51And that group, for people that don't know, is what we call the Anabaptists. And the Anabaptists
00:23:57would be the Mennonites, the Hutterites, the Amish. So they ended up splitting, right? And that group
00:24:03lived in the mountains. The reason why they have historically for 500 years been isolationists
00:24:09is because they were birthed by having a different perspective of the same thing,
00:24:16right? So to your point, it's like these cycles keep repeating themselves. The only thing we don't
00:24:22do now, those guys all got physically killed. Now we kill each other verbally.
00:24:29We abuse each other on the internet, right? You accuser of the brethren, right? So the dynamics
00:24:35don't shift, but it is always this, you know, we're the enlightened ones. And unfortunately for me,
00:24:43I guess one of the things that has caused me to really struggle, just full disclosure here,
00:24:50I have real problems with institutional Christianity. Like the, you know, the business of church bothers me
00:24:58because I see Jesus as someone who was amazingly cross-cultural, reaching out, you know, having
00:25:07conversations with the arch enemy Samaritans in public and a woman. I see Jesus healing the servant
00:25:14of the Nazi Roman commandant, right? I mean, these things that just are like, huh? Like just not
00:25:25social norms. Like he's, he's crossing the boundaries here. And so I see a different Jesus than a lot of
00:25:32the institutional world does. I see somebody who's actually bridge building and trying to, you know,
00:25:39to reach out, you know, be living water, be, you know, something positive. So, um, his guru-ness,
00:25:48you know, cause it's funny, he would be the ultimate guru, right? But to your point earlier,
00:25:53he's look, he's defusing it, right? His whole thing is I'm going away and you guys got to take over.
00:26:01Like it ain't about me, right? Which is so interesting because we made it all about him,
00:26:08but in his mind, it was like, he wanted to pass it on, right? It's like, I'm, I'm Peter,
00:26:13your job now, take this message that I've given you. I've spent three years guys showing you how to do
00:26:19this. Now go do it. Like, and he's dispensing his power, right? His guru-ness, putting it into other
00:26:26guys. And the thing he, what does he never do? He never builds an institutional religion.
00:26:33There is no form, right? There is no, whatever. It's just a group of guys that are all,
00:26:41you know, been taught by him. It's relational, it's personal. They go and meet other people and
00:26:48share their story and who this guy was and how he affected their lives, blah, blah, blah. You know,
00:26:53the whole institutional thing that we see in the church world, that doesn't happen for another 250,
00:27:01300 years. And then it goes off the rails. Every time we go to your point, to the guru model,
00:27:09right? Because a guru has to, the problem with the gurus is not all of them. Some of them are,
00:27:16you know, have their own little, um, you know, they, they actually live their message and don't have
00:27:23a following. But what typically happens is when people that like to make money find out that,
00:27:31Hey, there's a group of people that follow you. Hey, we can monetize this. And so next step,
00:27:37right? And you see the same historical pattern. Somebody has a spiritual gift, right? And people
00:27:45are following in them. Well, the next group of people are the guys who go, Hey, we can organize this
00:27:52and actually make this an income stream. So they get into it. And then pretty soon the books come
00:27:58out, you know, the TV show comes out, you know, then the seminars come out and it's like this,
00:28:05this same cycle. And I see it over and over again. It's, I'm at the point now where I'm like
00:28:10the old
00:28:10guy going, Oh yeah. But in there, done that a hundred times. I know exactly where this is going.
00:28:16Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
00:28:22modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter rain, charismatic and other fringe
00:28:27movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham
00:28:33historical research's website, William dash Branham.org on the books page of the website. You can find the
00:28:41compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others with
00:28:48links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and
00:28:54documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to
00:29:00the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always,
00:29:06be sure to like, and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching
00:29:11on behalf of William Branham historical research. We want to thank you for your support.
00:29:17So let's fast forward through history. We've talked to kind of about the ancient world,
00:29:21the medieval times, the birth of the Anabaptists. Now let's think about in American history,
00:29:27there was a sudden and swift change that happened that led to the guru model kind of exploding in the
00:29:35United States. And this came almost instantly with the radio. You had it somewhat with the printing
00:29:43presses, but with the radio, take Christianity, take the preacher, take your average person who's
00:29:50somewhat illiterate, who does go to church on Sunday, but they weren't really that enthusiastic
00:29:54about church. You had to get on your horse and travel for hours and people, especially people in the
00:30:00rural communities, whenever they're growing up, their relationship with God was literally their
00:30:05Bible. There was no guru. But now with the invention of the radio, suddenly they've got
00:30:10the guru that they can turn into a box in the corner, right? And so they start hearing it. Well,
00:30:16even if the person did not know what they were talking about, say they had no concept or no solid
00:30:22concept of theology, it didn't matter. They're the voice in the room that's preaching. They must be
00:30:28the guru. They must know all of the things, right? Because they're on the radio. Just instant rank
00:30:33and status because they were on the radio. Well, for the younger crowd that may be listening, I think
00:30:39they probably don't realize that for our parents' generation, the radio was like TV. Like everybody
00:30:47in the family sat around in the living room listening to the shows, right? So your point,
00:30:54so radio was the single most, even more than newspapers, it was the most influential media
00:31:00of what, the 30s, 40s, 50s? Oh, absolutely. And even today, so if you're thinking television,
00:31:09even the change from the way television is, media is presented to the household today is so
00:31:17vastly different. When I was growing up, you got three channels, if you were lucky. Most of the
00:31:21time we got two and one was really fuzzy. And you usually had one TV. Black and white.
00:31:26Black and white. Usually I had one TV. The family sat in the living room. If there was a minister
00:31:32coming on the TV, man, that was it. That was the guy. Well, you know who the first guy was?
00:31:37The guy
00:31:37that pioneered TV, Rex Hombard. Oh yeah. Yeah. Right. Rex Hombard from a good old Akron, Ohio.
00:31:44Yeah. So yeah, Rex, Rex was the kind of the first guy that, you know, and then, um, well,
00:31:50there's a whole story there. I, I, I, the problem I've got here is I got, there's a story, but
00:31:55it's,
00:31:55um, you'll have, you might have to bleep this out, but if you go to, if you go to Akron,
00:32:03Ohio,
00:32:04they have a 300 foot steel, not steel, concrete pillar in Akron that the locals call Rex's. And
00:32:16you just can imagine what it rhymes with, but it's derogatory. And the reason was, is because
00:32:22Oral Roberts saw what Rex Hombard was doing on television, but Rex didn't have the big money
00:32:30guys like Oral did. Cause Oral was in Oklahoma and Texas where there was big oil money, right? So
00:32:36Oral and Rex got into a big, can I say, pissing contest of who's more influential. So they both
00:32:45decided to build a prayer tower and Rex only got the base done and never got the money to finish
00:32:51it.
00:32:51So, and they can't tear it down because they built it so thick that if they tried to dynamite it,
00:32:58they blew up all the homes in the neighborhood. But for people that don't know the, the, the
00:33:03geographics, that's also where Ernest Angsley is from. Right. So these, this is a whole little
00:33:09circle in Akron there, you know, with these guys, but to your point, radio was the first,
00:33:15right. Then in the fifties, Rex starts television. And then you had Oral Roberts and, and, and the,
00:33:24the latter rain guys all started taking advantage of it. And that's where you got all the kooks on TV
00:33:30with the blessed holy water and the scarf that, you know, was dipped in the Jordan river. I carried
00:33:37it all the way back from Israel. Send me your offering.
00:33:41It's such a weird mess. And so think about this and the example that you gave, I'm actually going
00:33:46to keep it in here because it fits the point I'm about to make. Okay. So you've got all of
00:33:51the
00:33:51gurus who are rising up through television, radio, et cetera. Well, there's a huge problem with this
00:33:57in America. We are bred with a competitive nature in the United States. It isn't just that you have
00:34:03a guru. It isn't just that you have a second, third, fourth, a hundredth guru. The gurus must compete.
00:34:09That is how we are wired as United States citizens. We are wired to compete. Well,
00:34:17mix into that, everything that we've just described, the Pentecostal faith before it
00:34:23became charismatic. There's a, there's a huge problem here that is the elephant in everybody's
00:34:28room, even in the Pentecostals. They know this is an issue, but they never talk about it.
00:34:33That is the fact that in Pentecostalism, sound theology was not as important as revelation.
00:34:42Yeah, that's right.
00:34:43In fact, whenever you, well, the best example is Branham. Branham would, Branham had the guru
00:34:49mentality. He had to be a teacher. If you weren't a teacher, you weren't competitive. So he was known
00:34:55and respected as a teacher of the Bible, but he would say things like, I don't know the book really
00:35:00well, but I know the author. And to the people who are listening, it really doesn't matter.
00:35:06But go all the way back to Azusa Street. The revival breaks out on Azusa Street. You've got
00:35:12William Joseph Seymour. He's kind of leading it. He has studied under Parham, so he has some
00:35:18knowledge. But there were people who were speaking, and you can find it in the newspapers.
00:35:22There were people speaking and reading from the Bible who couldn't read. And the way that the,
00:35:29you're listening to that, and you're thinking, what did John just say? The newspaper journalists
00:35:33were just as confused. They said, but it really wasn't reading. What they would do is they would
00:35:38repeat a phrase over and over, and that turned into a sermon. Well, if you think of how Pentecostal
00:35:43sermons are structured, they will pound that phrase into your head, because they're saying
00:35:48that phrase over and over again. So you really don't have to know theology. You just have to
00:35:53have a phrase and see if you can, in a charismatic way, pound it into people's heads.
00:35:58Well, you're a musician, so the word we're looking for is the hook, right?
00:36:02Yeah. Well, I usually go to vain repetitions.
00:36:08That's a good religious way of saying it. But yes, for you musicians out there, even preachers
00:36:13have a hook, right? There's a, you know, I mean, you go back even some of the great Pentecostal
00:36:19black preachers, right? There's these little sentences that they have, you know what I
00:36:24mean? And so they'll be preaching, then all of a sudden, boom, there it is, right? And
00:36:28then another five minutes, and then boom, there it is. So that's actually a model, a preaching
00:36:34model to what John's talking about.
00:36:36Exactly. And it turned into slogans, all kinds of different things. But picture the radio days
00:36:42before it turned into television. Picture Pentecostalism before it turned into charismatics.
00:36:48And picture people who were gaining respect, who did not really know theology, who came
00:36:56either out of the Pentecostal world, or just simply they somehow managed to get themselves
00:37:02on the radio. Maybe they had money or whatever. With the guru model, and with the invention
00:37:09of radio, the common person in the household listening to the person who's the authority on
00:37:14whatever it is they're saying, they believe it. Because the average person also isn't
00:37:18studying theology. It's a little bit different in today's world because you have instant access
00:37:24to theology. I can get on Bible.com or BibleGateway.com. I can read through theology books and teach
00:37:30myself. But that model did not exist in the radio days. You had to go to the guru. You had
00:37:38all of these people teaching. And in the larger cities, this is where the problem starts to begin.
00:37:45Now you have places where the radio, oh, this is working. We like this. We're getting sponsors
00:37:51for this person. What if we had a second radio personality that's preaching and teaching?
00:37:56Now you've got the competition, right? And it has to get bigger and better and more entertaining.
00:38:01So, the entertainment level of preaching starts to creep in at higher rates than before. It wasn't
00:38:10just...
00:38:10And wouldn't you say Robert Shuler would have been probably the, I don't know, the pioneer
00:38:16of the presentation? You know what I'm saying? And I look back, I mean, the Crystal Cathedral,
00:38:23you know, Sunday morning, I mean, it was theater. I mean, Amy Semple McPherson was before him,
00:38:28but she didn't have TV. He was the one that, you know, built the Crystal Cathedral. I mean,
00:38:34it was as much about the ambiance of the building as it was, you know, the dynamics of the show,
00:38:41right?
00:38:42Darrell Bock Well, there were, there are many who claim it,
00:38:44but from my research, so Amy Semple McPherson, you mentioned, you can go back and you can find
00:38:50the photos of this, but she had this massive, massive radio antenna put on top of Angelus Temple.
00:38:56Darrell Bock I saw that.
00:38:57Darrell Bock And it broadcast all throughout Los Angeles
00:38:59area. So she was one of many. I think at the same time, if I remember correctly, Charles Price
00:39:05was another one who was preaching. Radio preacher, Los Angeles area. So you had all these different
00:39:10competitions. But the point is, if you go across the United States, you're going to find in different
00:39:16areas people who claim that they're the first or the greatest or the biggest because that's what
00:39:22they have to do. We're the biggest. We're the best. We are the guru. And so you had these competing
00:39:27gurus. And whenever they would say things like this over the radio, even their boasting was accepted
00:39:34at face value. We've got the biggest church. We've got the biggest. We're the very first to do this.
00:39:39Darrell Bock Right.
00:39:40Darrell Bock Whenever they would say things like this, they weren't
00:39:42really qualified. They weren't critically analyzed in what they said. So people would accept it
00:39:50because they are the guru. It was the guru model. And then the problem is, some of the things that
00:39:56they said, because many of them had not studied theology, wasn't quite right. And so people who
00:40:04were reading the Bible, I clearly remember talking to an old-timer who came across this. And I won't
00:40:10give the subject matter. But he was reading his Bible and I watched his face. Suddenly, he did this
00:40:17and kind of shook his head a little bit. And he read this and said, I heard this – and
00:40:22he named a
00:40:22preacher – and he said, I heard this preacher preaching years ago on the radio. And he said something
00:40:27else. And I just – I don't know. I just must not understand this scripture very well.
00:40:33Darrell Bock And what he was describing was he read something
00:40:35that was entirely opposite of what the person preaching said. But because they were the guru,
00:40:40they had the authority, he could not take what he read in the Bible at face value.
00:40:46Darrell Bock See, I'm kind of of the persuasion. I don't think
00:40:49latter rain could happen again in the way it did. And here's why. Because I think if you go back
00:40:54and
00:40:55you study demographics and sociology and history and all that, and the reason I say that is pre-World War
00:41:02II, we still had somewhere around 50% of our population was rural. If you want to do some
00:41:12research, go back and look at the percentage of people who lived in the country and lived in the
00:41:19city across our country. Because initially it was 90% lived outside, right? So still in the 20s,
00:41:2730s, 40s, you know, in that whole time period, we still had a massive amount of our population
00:41:35that was rural, right? So there was no way a mega church could happen out there, right? Because
00:41:43people were scattered. So the radio, to your point, becomes this huge lifeline for rural folks who
00:41:52don't have access to healthcare, don't have access to a lot of stuff, right? They don't have access to
00:42:00good education, all of this. So there's an environment, as I guess where I'm going with this,
00:42:06that allows this sort of latter rain kind of dynamic where we got a few guys that are
00:42:16spiritually enlightened, but not biblical, like they're, you know, they're, they have inspired word,
00:42:22not written word, right? And there's a whole group of people that aren't theologically sophisticated
00:42:28enough to even challenge any of this, who are desperate because they have, you know, just like in
00:42:35Jesus' time, they're sick, they're ailing, they've got, right? So some guy blows into town in a tent
00:42:41saying, hey, wait a minute, you know, you know, come see me, I'll fix you. They're all there, right?
00:42:49Because, you know, they don't have the money, they can't go to the city, they don't have the money,
00:42:54you know? I mean, those were the days when your parents died in your house. People didn't go to
00:42:58old people's homes. We didn't isolate old people. I mean, you know, this was, these were very connected
00:43:05communities. And so that's what I'm saying. I don't think that whole latter rain thing can happen.
00:43:10And I'm, the reason why I'm, I'm thinking out loud here, because I'm wondering, this is where I'm
00:43:15going with this. I'm wondering now with the advent of AI and the fact that all of this information now
00:43:24is available to an individual. You seriously don't ever need to go anywhere to get biblically
00:43:33literate. Like, you could literally sit in front of your computer and educate yourself now. We don't
00:43:39need gurus. Having said that, what just happened a few weeks ago is the Buddhists just announced
00:43:46their new AI guru, robot. Right? So this is where this gets fascinating to me, because
00:43:56the Muslims are going to do it. Like, all these different religions now are going to be creating
00:44:02these avatar, if it's on a screen, it'll be an avatar guru, you know, Swami, enlightened person,
00:44:10or if it's in person, it's going to be a robotic figure. So right now it looks like a robot.
00:44:15But
00:44:16once they figured out how to put a skin covering on this, it's just going to start looking like a
00:44:20person. And you're going to be going to confession with father AI, you know, I'm saying, my father's
00:44:28back there in the rectory watching the football game. He's got his AI doing the confessions.
00:44:33You know, I'm just teasing. I'm like, that's what happens. It's Sunday morning. Anyways, I'm just,
00:44:39I'm just thinking about where this is going to go and who the new gurus are going to be,
00:44:43because they're coming, right? Because there's still this thing, I think, in us humans, where we
00:44:50want to be led. It's like, we still want somebody to tell us, right? I mean, I still get this
00:44:55all the
00:44:55time in conversations where, you know, somebody will make a statement, and I'm, instead of me attacking
00:45:01the statement, I always respond with the question, why do you think like that? Like, where did that
00:45:06come from? That's always my first question, not you're wrong. Where did you get this? And nine
00:45:11times out of ten, it's, well, pastor said. I mean, it's amazing how many people live their lives
00:45:17because pastor said.
00:45:19You know, there's a problem that I actually can talk about this to you, and you'll get it,
00:45:24most of the other hosts. It's a concept that I think is slowly developing. I think eventually
00:45:29people will get it. Whenever you look at these movements, there's this tendency to look at
00:45:35the current figure as they have fallen. You rarely look at the figure as they were building
00:45:42up to the big figure that fell.
00:45:46The AI, most people are scared of it. They have this fear of the unknown. But AI has a similar
00:45:54problem that Ladder Rain created. And I think you'll get this. I'm watching your eyes to see
00:45:59if you do.
00:45:59Okay.
00:46:01Here's the problem that happened with Ladder Rain, and I'll go back to AI in just a second.
00:46:06With Ladder Rain, William Branham was the face of the movement. He was advertised as
00:46:11America's Voice of Healing, started the publication, Voice of Healing. It was made to advertise Branham.
00:46:17Well, he gets a mental health crisis, gets taken off the field. Gordon Lindsay sees the power of this
00:46:24publication and all of the revenue, of course, and he starts advertising other ministries instead of
00:46:30Branham. What happened is now you have a publication for a guru that was designed specifically to create
00:46:38multiple gurus. The thing that Gordon Lindsay could not envision was the fact that when you have
00:46:44multiple gurus, now you have multiple competing gurus, they're all playing tug of war. You got
00:46:49Oral Roberts going this way. You got Branham going this way. In the end, what happens is they become
00:46:55very controlling because if you're not on my mountain and you're going to that other mountain,
00:47:00you're hearing the word of the devil or whatever was the concept that they're preaching. But you had
00:47:06this competition that turned destructive. It wasn't the gurus that turned it destructive, however.
00:47:14It takes two. For there to be a leader, there must be a follower. For there to be a follower,
00:47:19you must be following something and you must have a shared opinion to draw you to whoever it is you're
00:47:26following. Take that concept to AI. AI is just simply a database with a really good search engine
00:47:34that creates human readable phrases and then does some magic under the hood to look up what you're seeking.
00:47:42That database is written by what people write on the internet and books. So it's got this massive
00:47:48database. That's why you find people say, well, AI lied to me. Did it or did it find you can
00:47:55find the
00:47:56polar opposite of everything that you think is true on the internet, right? It's because it found another
00:48:01source of lying. So I actually read some articles on how they went about this, but they actually have
00:48:08to determine what you as the asker consider to be truth and what consider to be false. Because when it
00:48:16gives you the answer, it has to tailor the truth for your truth, not the other person's truth, which is
00:48:22really weird if you think about it. But here's the problem. And it's the same problem that Latter Rain
00:48:29did when it created Charismania. With AI, the truth is now being written by AI,
00:48:37by people who consider their version of truth. So with Latter Rain, you had this movement of people.
00:48:44They were following the different gurus. They were building what became very destructive.
00:48:49And it takes two. They're going down this pathway of wrong and error. Well, with AI,
00:48:54it's the same thing. AI is now writing the very thing that it uses to look up what it gives
00:48:59you as
00:48:59an answer. Because half the internet is now written by AI. So where does this end up? If you continue
00:49:07down that pathway where you are, what's a good way? Crowd surfing. It's like crowd surfing. You can get on
00:49:15the crowd surfing wave, right? And you're being carried by all of the people. But it's not you
00:49:21that's really doing the magic of carrying. It's the crowd under you. That's what happens with these
00:49:26gurus. It's not really so much that they're even headed in a direction. They're getting feedback of
00:49:33what the people like, what they'll spend money on. And whatever direction the people take them,
00:49:38that is the wave that they ride. The same problem existed with AI. The same problem existed in Latter Rain.
00:49:44But here's the catch. Once Gordon Lindsay and others determined that this is what is happening,
00:49:51and they tried to control the people, Branham died. And what happened? You had these five guys
00:49:57who said, we need a way to police this. Because this wave that is carrying people in the wrong
00:50:04directions, we need a government structure over this. And they created the shepherding movement.
00:50:09You got the shepherds who shepherd the other shepherds who all the way down the rank and file.
00:50:14So in the end, what they did was they went in a complete cycle from the Protestant Reformation back
00:50:19to the structure that Martin Luther left because of this very problem.
00:50:23Yeah. I mean, almost virtually every denomination that's out there follows the cycle you talked about,
00:50:30meaning that you have somebody who's gifted, right? A John Wesley, you know, Jonathan Edwards,
00:50:38somebody, right? You know, John Knox up in Scotland, you know, who becomes the Presbyterians.
00:50:44While they're alive, they're living, breathing, they're the guru, right? And there's a dynamic,
00:50:51and people are following this person, right? And so in order to keep this going, you add a team,
00:50:58and you get people around you, well, then that guy dies. You just lost the core, right? The energy
00:51:05person, the one that had the, you know, the vision, whatever. So what happens was, what happens,
00:51:13and I've seen this 100 times, is all the leftovers who were all living off of this guy's gift,
00:51:21then institutionalize it, right? Because now it's about preserving the wealth, preserving our status,
00:51:27preservation. It goes into preservation mode, and that's when the institutionalism comes in, right?
00:51:33Because now we've got to create policies and processes and procedures to preserve this thing,
00:51:38because we're going to lose two things, status and stuff if we don't, right?
00:51:46To take this another step further, you know, everybody quotes John 3.16. You know, it's quite the most famous
00:51:53verse. But James 3.16 is, to me, probably one of the most insightful verses full of unbelievable wisdom,
00:52:03because James says, wherever you have selfish ambition and greed, in other words, the lust,
00:52:10the drive to attain status and stuff, you're always going to end up with chaos and evil. He lays the
00:52:18equation out. And I'm telling you, if that little verse and that principle hasn't played itself out
00:52:25thousands of times in my life, it's like every single time, whether it's been in marriage conflict,
00:52:32business partner conflicts, team conflicts, religious conflicts, I always go back to that
00:52:39verse and go, okay, I got to get to the bottom of what's really going on, whose feelings got hurt,
00:52:45who's not getting strokes, who's losing money, right? It's like, it's always at the, that's always
00:52:52the root. And what's particularly difficult in the church world, I'm just throwing this out there,
00:52:58I'm confessing, is everybody gets super religious. Out in the business world, it's just more raw. Like,
00:53:05you know, it's just people aren't, it's really bad in the religious world, because everybody throws God
00:53:11into it. Well, God said this and showed me that, right? And it just muddies everything. And you
00:53:17can't actually get down, you know, to the root. And the preachers are the worst at it, right? It's
00:53:23like the minute you get down to, wait a minute, you're selfish, you know, you have selfish ambition,
00:53:28or you're driven by greed, they always have some justification of why it's a God thing. And it's not
00:53:33really what you think it is. I know it looks that way, brother. But, you know, there's just
00:53:40like little eels, like you grab onto them, and they slip right through your hands. It's like that,
00:53:45that's, that's one of the reasons why I haven't been in the ministry role for 25 years, because I
00:53:50won't, I just, I just don't like it. I just don't like dealing with people who won't deal with reality,
00:53:59right, that have to, you know, spiritualize everything. It drives me crazy. So, true story,
00:54:07back in the 80s, John Paul and I actually took a trip to Ireland, and we went, they like wanted
00:54:13us to go meet some guy who they thought was a prophet, right? And so anyways, he comes out,
00:54:19his hair's all white, like he just got out of the bathtub. He looks at me and he goes,
00:54:24oh, you're the lion tamer. And John Paul like falls off his chair laughing, because I was in the
00:54:33middle of Kansas City, where I had a whole group of exactly what you're talking, like the very dynamic
00:54:40that you're talking about in the latter rain with all that, I had in Kansas City, because the whole
00:54:45dynamic in Kansas City, where guys are coming from all over the country to be a part of this
00:54:49end type movement. So, I had a lot of guys that actually could stand on their own that were part
00:54:55of the team, and oh my gosh, having to manage that. And so, here's the analogy, and I've shared this
00:55:00before in the show. This is where I figured out what I call the influence pie. So, at Kansas City
00:55:06Fellowship, we had a level of influence, right? It was just so big. And so, it's like a circle, like
00:55:12a pie,
00:55:13right? And in that circle, or in that pie, there's slices, right? And those slices, the size of those
00:55:19slices, are based on how much influence you have within the group, right? The subculture. Well,
00:55:27the guy who had the biggest slice of our pie was Mike, right? So, the rest, you know, he's probably
00:55:32half the pie. And then the rest of the guys were all competing for the other half, right? But what
00:55:38I
00:55:38realized was, is every time someone's slice of the pie got bigger, because they got more influence,
00:55:44somebody else's got smaller, and they didn't like that. You know? And so, I was constantly having to,
00:55:51you know, deal with egos, right? Oh my gosh. And so, I know, I'm just telling you from the other
00:55:59side
00:55:59of the curtain what really goes on, and how this game gets played, and why back in the 80s, Marvin
00:56:06Gorman took down Jimmy Swagger, right? I mean, I could tell you so many stories about how these
00:56:11guys compete. I mean, to get into your world, they all got dirt on each other. I mean, I'm probably
00:56:17spilling the beans here, but they purposely go find dirt on each other, right? So, they can
00:56:23control each other. I mean, it's bad. It's bad what really goes on in those circles, and it's exactly
00:56:29what you're discovering in Latter Rain, right? It's just everyone trying to get a bigger slice of the pie,
00:56:36and the reason was, it gives them two things, status and stuff, which feeds their ego.
00:56:42And without knowing it, you came to my main point, which is this whole model.
00:56:47I tend to do that, don't I?
00:56:48You always do this.
00:56:50It gets you to your main point.
00:56:51You steal my glory, man. The problem with the guru model is the ego.
00:56:57Yeah.
00:56:58Go back to the person that you mentioned, God told me this. What are they doing?
00:57:02They have learned the pattern of the guru model. God is telling the guru, whatever it is they said.
00:57:08When they want to condemn you and make you behave the way that they want, well, God told me,
00:57:13you need to change, my brother.
00:57:14Right.
00:57:15And you know for certain, I mean, you know half the time that God didn't tell them anything.
00:57:20Right.
00:57:20But that's because they've trained in the guru model.
00:57:23Jesus saw that this was a problem, and he said, I will send the Holy Spirit to lead you and
00:57:27guide you.
00:57:28Not another guru, not another philosopher, not an apostle, not a prophet.
00:57:33He tried to take the model that through time had proven to be false.
00:57:38We've talked about the mythologies, how they develop, how they, basically the guru model led to people sacrificing children.
00:57:46That's how bad it can end up.
00:57:48He saw a better way, he tried to preach the better way, and the modern charismatic movement has just taken
00:57:55his model and flipped it upside down.
00:57:57Well, wouldn't you say Jim Jones is sort of the patriot state of the guru model going way off the
00:58:04rails?
00:58:04Oh, absolutely.
00:58:05And he came directly from this.
00:58:07That's the worst, right?
00:58:07Oh, yeah.
00:58:08Came directly from this.
00:58:10So hopefully we did this topic justice.
00:58:12Thank you for doing this.
00:58:13I've had fun with it, and I hope I didn't spill the beans too much, but I know people probably
00:58:19appreciate a little honesty, you know, and again, don't, you know, I'm just trying to be honest and share the
00:58:26reality of what a lot of people have never had a front row seat at, and I ended up finding
00:58:31myself in the middle of, and that's why I'm not there anymore.
00:58:36Get me out of here.
00:58:37I was like the, what was that show when we were kids, the cartoon, you'd go, Mr. Wizard, I need
00:58:44me in there.
00:58:45Get me out of here.
00:58:47Tudor Turtle, yeah.
00:58:48Turd, yes, Tudor Turtle, that was me.
00:58:50Mr. Wizard.
00:58:52That was my prayer back in those days.
00:58:55It wasn't to the guru, it was to the great wizard.
00:58:57God, get me out of here.
00:59:00Yeah.
00:59:00So, yes, I'm sorry I'm making fun of it, because I know for some people it's serious, but gosh,
00:59:06it's, I was just listening to an interview with Paul McCartney about growing up during
00:59:11the war, and he goes, the thing about Liverpool is we all made jokes about it.
00:59:15Like, the only way to get through some of this is to have a good laugh, so that's why I'm
00:59:19laughing at it, because it wasn't funny at the time, but it is now.
00:59:23That's why I laugh constantly.
00:59:25Yeah.
00:59:25So, thank you for doing this.
00:59:27All right, bud.
00:59:28Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on
00:59:31the web.
00:59:33For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion
00:59:38from Christian Identity to the NAR, and for more about Mike Bickle and IHOPKC, you can
00:59:43read Some Said They Blundered, Breaking My Decades of Silence on Mike Bickle, the Kansas
00:59:47City Prophets, and the International House of Prayer.
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