- 5 weeks ago
John and Chuck examine faith healing, medical neglect, cult psychology, and the doctrines that kept people trapped inside the Freeman and Faith Assembly world. Through firsthand stories about chronic illness, allergy treatment, rejected medicine, and a self-inflicted hunting accident, they explore how healing theology shaped daily life and why so many remained committed even when the promises failed.
The discussion also looks at pride, indoctrination, emotional manipulation, education, and the long process of deconstruction after leaving a high-control religious movement. Along the way, John and Chuck connect personal experience to broader Pentecostal and charismatic history, showing how extreme healing doctrine can distort faith, conscience, and common sense.
00:00 Introduction And Chuck’s Background
03:32 Early Healing Memories And The Pull Of Faith Teachings
06:57 How Healing Movements Use Emotion, Altar Calls, And Personal Suffering
11:49 Baptism, Glasses, And The Pressure To “Overcome”
16:18 Chronic Illness, Music, And Painful Memories From Faith Assembly
21:40 Modern Charismatic Extremes And Connections To Older Spiritualist Patterns
23:19 Marriage, West Virginia, And Life After Faith Assembly
27:18 The Hunting Accident That Changed Chuck’s Theology
33:11 Refusing Medical Treatment And Facing Legal Intervention
38:09 Pain, Surgery, And Rethinking Faith Healing
40:59 Realizing Something Was Wrong With The Theology
42:05 John’s Similar Breaking Point During A Family Cancer Crisis
43:37 Responsibility, Cult Influence, And The Difficulty Of Leaving
47:22 Advice For Escaping: Education, Reason, History, And Studying The Group
52:12 Walter Martin, Cult Criteria, And Closing Reflections
53:31 Closing Resources
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The discussion also looks at pride, indoctrination, emotional manipulation, education, and the long process of deconstruction after leaving a high-control religious movement. Along the way, John and Chuck connect personal experience to broader Pentecostal and charismatic history, showing how extreme healing doctrine can distort faith, conscience, and common sense.
00:00 Introduction And Chuck’s Background
03:32 Early Healing Memories And The Pull Of Faith Teachings
06:57 How Healing Movements Use Emotion, Altar Calls, And Personal Suffering
11:49 Baptism, Glasses, And The Pressure To “Overcome”
16:18 Chronic Illness, Music, And Painful Memories From Faith Assembly
21:40 Modern Charismatic Extremes And Connections To Older Spiritualist Patterns
23:19 Marriage, West Virginia, And Life After Faith Assembly
27:18 The Hunting Accident That Changed Chuck’s Theology
33:11 Refusing Medical Treatment And Facing Legal Intervention
38:09 Pain, Surgery, And Rethinking Faith Healing
40:59 Realizing Something Was Wrong With The Theology
42:05 John’s Similar Breaking Point During A Family Cancer Crisis
43:37 Responsibility, Cult Influence, And The Difficulty Of Leaving
47:22 Advice For Escaping: Education, Reason, History, And Studying The Group
52:12 Walter Martin, Cult Criteria, And Closing Reflections
53:31 Closing Resources
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Chuck Davis, former
00:46member of Faith Assembly.
00:47Chuck, it's good to have you back and to talk more about your story.
00:52I know that when we first recorded, you had a dozen different things.
00:56I think we may have covered two of those dozen.
00:58And so, glad to have you back to talk through some more of your adventures in Faith Assembly.
01:04And maybe for those who aren't familiar with you, if you could reintroduce yourself and
01:09let everybody know who is Chuck Davis.
01:11Sure, absolutely.
01:12And thank you for having me back again.
01:14John, I do still watch your podcast, and I never fail to learn something new.
01:21Something helpful helps me continue to deconstruct and reprocess the cult I was in.
01:29A brief summary, I did grow up in a small evangelical church in North Central West Virginia, did the
01:37traditional, responded to an altar call in my early teens, baptized in water, Father, Son, and
01:44Holy Spirit.
01:46Introduced the charismatic phenomena through other people in the church, saw the rifts that that
01:52caused in the church, went off to a small Baptist college where I was impressed by a Puerto Rican
01:59student who just exuded the joy of the Lord.
02:02And I'm like, I want what he has.
02:03So, ended up in Lafayette, Indiana to do an off-campus job experience at Great Lakes Chemical
02:10Corporation.
02:12I was looking for a church or Bible study to take me deeper in God's Word and closer to
02:19Him.
02:19Ended up in a small house where an older lady was renting rooms to produce students.
02:24One of those students happened to be a member of the Bruce Kinsey Lafayette Satellite Church
02:30of Faith Assembly.
02:31So, on a Monday night, I joined him and heard my first classic faith message.
02:39And then, I think, last podcast, I talked about how it seemed to be confirmed to me when after
02:45that June meeting, I went back to my grandparents' home where I was raised, and my dad, who I
02:54did not know, my biological father, had called, and my granddad said, your dad called from the
02:59VA hospital, wants to get to know you and reconnect with you.
03:03And so, I'm like, praise God, this household salvation message worked.
03:09Even though I didn't go through the proper steps of name it, claim it, confess it, endure,
03:13all of that, I said a general prayer, and I'm like, oh, my goodness, God answers general
03:18prayers.
03:21So, anyway, I had a nice time last evening asking my mother, who lives nearby here in
03:29Indiana, down in Speedway, not too far from the racetrack, and my oldest sister, south of
03:36Houston, Texas, and I just want to set the stage to talk about healing today and how I changed
03:44my mind toward the end of the podcast, I'll tell about the air quote trial that changed
03:51my mind about healing from the Freeman perspective and the faith message perspective to a more
03:57rational one.
04:00So, anyway, yeah, let me, if I may, and I don't normally do this, but just briefly share with
04:08you the little Facebook messenger conversation I had with my mother and sister, my sister
04:15is seven years younger than I am, and so I asked them about how old was Lisa when she
04:23had spinal meningitis and recovered after a man stopped by the hospital room and prayed
04:28for her.
04:29And my sister said three with a question mark.
04:31My mother said yes, and my sister said, funny, how did I remember that?
04:35I said, okay, thanks, I may mention it, my podcast interview is the first miracle I remember
04:40in our family.
04:41So, again, setting the stage, going to the Bruce Kinsey meeting in Lafayette was the first
04:47time I had been introduced to the possibility of divine healing, supernatural healing, charismatic,
04:58Pentecostal types of things.
04:59So, anyway, my sister said, I remember being in the hospital, this is three years old.
05:05I don't think I have a clue what I did at three, but she seemed to remember this occasion.
05:11I remember being in the hospital, doctors and nurses coming in and out.
05:15I think it was evening hours.
05:16Mom was there.
05:17A man came in my room.
05:18I remember him standing next to my bed, laying hands on me and praying.
05:23And then she says, thank you for reminding me of this beautiful miracle.
05:26Does someone in our family know this man?
05:29And my mother answered, no, he was just making rounds in the hospital for people who needed prayer.
05:34I asked him to pray for you.
05:36So, my sister goes on, and this is short.
05:38It won't go on forever.
05:41After he came in and prayed, I remember the next day or that night, my fever broke.
05:45The healing began.
05:45I can remember those parts of the hospital stay vividly.
05:49The other parts were a blur.
05:51I don't even remember being sick, just waking up in the hospital, packed in ice.
05:55And I can only imagine how Mom must have felt during this time.
05:59So, I was just inspired once again that my sister had such clarity of remembering this.
06:09I remember it from my grandmother telling the story and wanting to write an article for Guidepost magazine that she
06:16read often.
06:18And according to her, my three-year-old sister's spine was so bowed from spinal meningitis that lying on her
06:26back, you could, you know, run your hand and arm up under her back.
06:30Her spine was that bowed.
06:34So, anyway, that was just a family memory of what we gave God credit for healing my sister.
06:42The other thought that came to me as I try to process these memories and events is I don't think
06:48this man did the, again, five steps of faith, name it, claim it.
06:52I just claimed the promise of healing for your daughter, and I'll see you later.
06:57You mentioned the altar calls, and I have grown to be a little bit scared of those.
07:01Those are the things that hook you, and not always hooking your soul towards salvation, towards Christ.
07:07It's mostly hooking your soul towards the emotion of the moment.
07:11And sometimes it reels you into things that you don't expect.
07:15What's interesting about our conversation is that you were in a much, much different group with a much different set
07:23of doctrines than I was in, but we both emerged from the same type of foundation.
07:28And many of your stories I can relate to directly.
07:32I feel the pain that you express when you're talking about your loved ones who were suffering and in a
07:39healing movement that can't really provide healing.
07:42It's odd.
07:43It's like going to a car salesman that doesn't have cars.
07:46What is this thing that we're in, right?
07:48Exactly, exactly.
07:50And this man, again, thinking through this, to my knowledge, he didn't leave my mother a business card or a
07:57calling card or an invitation to his church.
08:00It wasn't about him.
08:01We never, our family never did find out who that man was.
08:04A chaplain, a minister, you know, somebody off the street, we didn't know, never found out.
08:10But it also reminded me of James that the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
08:16And even though we heard that scripture within the Faith Assembly Churches, it was never stressed or emphasized.
08:22I don't remember, except going into an intercessory prayer room at the meeting place and just speaking in tongues for
08:3020 minutes or whatever, I don't remember having effectual, fervent, intercessory type of prayer for somebody else.
08:39And that was the other thing that occurred to me.
08:41In most of our circles, we were claiming promises for ourselves, not others.
08:46You know, I wasn't claiming a car for you or a house for Brother Chinno or, you know what I'm
08:52saying?
08:53Yeah.
08:54It was very, in my opinion, self-centered.
08:58And I'm careful to say my opinion because I know there's many out there who won't agree with me.
09:04But, so anyway, yeah, my evangelical upbringing and my sister's divine healing kind of set the stage for being sucked
09:12into the faith message later in life.
09:16But, yeah, we, you know, I also had a brother who had severe asthma and he never experienced a healing
09:21of any kind, you know.
09:24Oh, we did learn to exchange our, what is it, Jeremiah 10 Christmas tree, the pine tree.
09:32We had to exchange the live pine for an artificial Christmas tree because it was setting off my brother's allergies
09:40and asthma attacks.
09:41I mean, he went to the ER so many times because he couldn't breathe, the poor guy, so.
09:46A lot of people notice that I clear my throat a lot whenever I'm in the podcast.
09:50And it's because I have sinus drainage.
09:52In fact, I just cleared my throat now, not thinking about it.
09:54I have sinus drainage continually.
09:56I have an allergy problem.
09:58And right now is the heart of allergy season.
10:00Oh, yes.
10:01But growing up in the movement, even though we didn't have the level of forbidding medicine that you had, we
10:09were indoctrinated to believe that we could overcome it if we had just enough faith.
10:13That's how our doctrine worked.
10:14And so I was one of the people who suffered with allergies so severely, never got allergy shots.
10:23Through my entire childhood, there were weeks of school that I would just totally miss the whole week of school
10:28because my eyes were completely swollen shut and I could not see out of them.
10:32So I'd be home while everybody else was going to school.
10:35And all I needed was just an allergy shot.
10:38Years later, after I left the movement, here I am, 38, 39 years old.
10:43I was out for two years before I did it.
10:44I finally got allergy shots.
10:47And now you can, if you are connected to me on some of my social media, you'll see me outside.
10:52Whereas before, I was never outside.
10:55And you look at the lives that were ruined just simply by people trying to avoid medicine.
11:01And it goes so far into ways that you would never even think about, like simply going outside.
11:06Exactly.
11:07Exactly.
11:07And I can relate to you about the allergies.
11:10I suffered with them not nearly as bad as you had them, but to the extent that I eventually did
11:15see an allergist and was given a serum I could take home, put in the freezer, and inject myself in
11:21my leg during allergy season.
11:24And yes, that took care of it.
11:25Although I will admit, I'm still daily on Nasacort and Claritin-D and other allergy meds.
11:32So, yeah, so anyway, oh, and again, I'm just trying to connect the dots quickly here.
11:42The same brother I was rooming with in this house with other students, he and I attended together.
11:54But after hearing the apostolic baptism message, I went with him, and I didn't even know him that well yet,
12:02but this was after a meeting, it was dark.
12:05I went with him down to the levee in Lafayette on the banks of the Wabash River and allowed him
12:12to, he could have drowned me, allowed him to baptize me in the name of Jesus in the Wabash.
12:17And there wasn't even anybody there to witness that except the two of us.
12:22This is how ridiculous, ludicrous, anyway, naive, gullible I was as a 19-year-old.
12:29So, this is going to connect the dots, the fact that I was baptized in the Wabash, because later, and
12:36I've got my notes surrounding me here on chairs and all around me in case I need to refer to
12:42them.
12:42I don't think I will, but it wasn't long after the apostolic baptism in Jesus' name in the Wabash River
12:50that I felt now, I don't know who is dealing with me, probably my own mind, about giving up my
12:57glasses.
12:57Because I've been severely nearsighted since second grade, and just always wearing glasses, and I just felt like, boy, if
13:06I'm going to be an overcomer.
13:07Now, Debbie, my wife, she's already, she and I have great discussions, and one of these days, I'm going to
13:13get her on here with me, with you.
13:15Everybody will enjoy her.
13:16She's a sweetheart, but we still don't always see eye to eye.
13:19But she was telling me, her memory is that if you were wearing glasses, you probably weren't saved.
13:24I'm like, honey, I don't remember it being quite that extreme, although it probably was.
13:28I just thought I could wear glasses, still be saved, and go to heaven, but I just wouldn't be an
13:35overcomer.
13:35I wouldn't deliver groaning creation.
13:37I wouldn't go up in that first fruit rapture.
13:39You know, your wife, what you're describing for her, it's funny because it's the same relationship with me and my
13:45wife, but in reverse.
13:47See, my brain follows everything out to its logical conclusion, and they would not come out and tell you, you're
13:52not saved if you take the medicine.
13:55But they would give you all of these supporting facts that would make you not want to, because what if
14:00you're not saved?
14:01And they would do it like that, what if, what if?
14:03And once that gets in the back of your head, if you have an analytical mind, you will follow those
14:08paths out to their logical conclusion.
14:10So your wife is thinking, she's picking up exactly what's being laid down, but everybody else is just kind of,
14:16well, he didn't outright say that.
14:18Right, yeah, especially the people that still want to defend Freeman or even Bruce Kinsey.
14:22And after she challenged me, and I appreciate her challenging me and the two of us, after 42 years, we
14:30can have discussions with more civility than we used to.
14:34But after she challenged me, I got to thinking, I had listened to a Bruce Kinsey tape from back in
14:40maybe 78 or whatever, mid-70s, one that I had shared with Chenna, and it was a two-part message
14:48entitled, Sheep or Goats?
14:49And I do remember Bruce, I'm pretty sure it was on those tapes, those messages, that Bruce said, you know,
14:56and he was challenging us all, be sure you're a sheep and not a goat.
14:59If you can't believe God to heal a headache, how can you believe him for eternal life?
15:04So there you go.
15:05So, yeah, it was pretty much implied, yeah.
15:08So, anyway, I ended up walking home from a meeting one night across the Wabash River there on the bridge
15:18between Lafayette and West Lafayette.
15:20And I threw my glasses into the river saying, these belong with that old man that was crucified with Christ
15:28and dead and buried in that water baptism I had in this river.
15:32I'm just tossing them in the river to go back to the old man where they belong.
15:36So, for the next eight years, I think at least it was, here I am trying to find a job
15:44that I didn't have to drive, trying to find rides from the brothers and sisters in the church.
15:50And I wasn't the only one in that position.
15:53I don't know how, fortunately, by some, probably shouldn't say miracle, but maybe it was, anyway, maybe cheating like we've
16:00heard on previous podcasts, Debbie Pastor driving test.
16:04And so, here I am, the husband, and she's driving me around with three or four little kids in tow.
16:11Oh, my goodness.
16:12Oh, yeah.
16:13It wasn't all pleasant, for sure.
16:16It wasn't a bed of roses.
16:17Yeah, like I said, I can relate to so much of it.
16:20I grew up in a world where in the cult elite, the cult royalty, where my family was, we're at
16:28the top.
16:28Everybody else is at the bottom.
16:29I watched some of the people who weren't cult royalty, who had come into the movement, either through an altar
16:36call or for who knows what brought them, but they would come with their diseases and afflictions that they thought
16:43would be healed, and they never, ever were.
16:46And some of them, you know, if it's eyeglasses, you need eyeglasses and your sight's not so bad, that's painful.
16:53I mean, it's difficult to work through, but think of the people who had severe chronic illnesses.
16:59I know people who suffered really, really badly in the cult, and they were looking to the cult for answers.
17:06Some of them had conditions that even the medical world could not have cured, but the medical world, the doctors,
17:13and the medicine was advanced enough that it could have made their suffering less.
17:18And for me, that is the real problem.
17:21Absolutely, and I totally agree, and those thoughts were occurring to me as I was listening to Chinno go through
17:26the suffering of Dr. Freeman, Stan Hill.
17:32One of the first cases I became aware of during my time in the cult was the gifted guitarist, singer,
17:42songwriter, Carl Seitz from Ohio.
17:45And I was recently revisiting some of the praise and worship tapes and special music from the Adams Mark Hotel
17:52that we would rent out and have faith conferences during Christmas time.
17:57The hotel was pretty empty, and they were glad to invite all these crazy nutjobs into the motel and hotel
18:04for praise and worship and faith teaching and whatnot.
18:09But anyway, I was surprised to learn that Carl Seitz was on one of those tapes singing and was still
18:16alive and well, and this had to be the 80s.
18:19So I'm not sure exactly when he passed away, but I do know from the Children of F.A. website
18:25that my wife follows that there are some people that still make his music and tapes available, and I still
18:32enjoy that music.
18:33I really enjoy his music, and it's such a shame that not only did I'm sure he suffer toward the
18:39end of his life unnecessarily, but died from diabetes because he threw away the insulin.
18:44That's really sad.
18:46That's really sad.
18:46I, like you, enjoyed the music a lot.
18:49Being a musician, it's hard not to.
18:52I still struggle from time to time because, like I said with the altar calls, the emotional hype that connects
18:59you often connects your memories, some good things to some very bad things.
19:05And so I can remember some of the songs associated with some of the teachings that were behind the pulpit,
19:12and when I hear the particular song, now I hear the teaching ringing in my ears, and I can no
19:17longer listen to that song.
19:18Some of them are my favorite songs.
19:21I've come to the point where sometimes it's really difficult for me to listen to any Christian music, and I'll
19:26go hear Bon Jovi or something else that just takes my mind off of it.
19:30But the truth of the matter is we had some really good, solid memories in the group, and we had
19:37some good times, and it'll take a lifetime for me to do it, but I have to split away what
19:42was – what is the good memory that I can keep, and what is the bad memory that I want
19:46to move on from?
19:47Absolutely. One of the other music tapes I dug out and was listening to was special music on a Sunday
19:55morning under the man I told Cheno acted more as a pastor to our group in Lafayette than even Bruce
20:01did on Monday night.
20:02Bruce, I guess, and he never claimed to be an apostle or prophet, but his role was more, quote-unquote,
20:08air quotes again, apostolic, whereas the farmer, Bill Fouts, was more pastoral.
20:14And he had a special music session one Sunday morning, and Debbie questioned me about using names, but I don't
20:22– and I told her I would honor that to a certain degree, and I don't believe this family would
20:27mind me sharing because, to me, it's a positive thing.
20:29The Morrissey family, Steve Morrissey would lead songs occasionally, and his little brother, Chuck Morrissey, would play banjo, and this
20:37special music included, I think, at least three songs those two brothers had written together.
20:42And I'm just – I'm getting goosebumps now talking about it because it reminded me so much of bluegrass in
20:48West Virginia.
20:49And to hear those guys – and it was – you know, a lot of our music was straight King
20:54James Scripture out of the Psalms often, but it was bluegrass-sounding banjo guitar, and I don't think we had
21:00a fiddle.
21:01But, again, here was talent that eventually went to the wayside for whatever reason.
21:12So, the way – and I don't know if people are following very closely, and as long as they're picking
21:19up the points that we're trying to share from our personal experiences to help others.
21:25And that's the whole gist of this.
21:28I've picked that up from your other podcast to, you know, to expose and help others either escape or avoid
21:35such extremes in religious movements and fakes.
21:41Real quickly, I will interject this, that I've – since watching your podcast, I've gone and explored some others, and
21:49I can't believe the craziness that's still going on out there in the charismatic world.
21:55I mean, I just recently watched a YouTube channel, I think, called Minor Prophets, where they were talking about –
22:01and I won't name the gal, although they said, yes, we need to name her and let people know about
22:05it.
22:06I've been out of the loop in a good way for so long, I don't regret it.
22:09But this gal, in being platformed – I'm learning new terminology – platformed by big names, teaching astral projection and
22:19time travel and twisting the scriptures in ways that just – I can't imagine or believe, although I was a
22:28victim, too, at one time.
22:29And if you have a logical mind and you start to connect the dots backwards historically, you'll find that there
22:36were many seeds that were planted, especially in the Lateran movement, that grew and blossomed into what you're talking about.
22:43What's interesting is that in that trail of the blooming and blossoming, in that trail was Hobart Freeman.
22:49Mm-hmm. That's right.
22:51And I also remembered, and as soon as I saw them playing clips of her talking about time travel and
22:57astral projection, I immediately thought of your connection in bringing out the historicity of spiritualism and the influence and effect
23:07spiritualism had on Branham and those early men and women.
23:13And, yeah, because that was just spiritualism up and down and all around.
23:20So, anyway, the way I ended up back in West Virginia, because I may or may not have mentioned on
23:26the first podcast, I kind of chickened out when I finally proposed to Debbie.
23:30I wrote her a letter asking her to marry me and move back to West Virginia for mission work and
23:36share the faith message.
23:37And she came up to the church on a Sunday morning with her brother.
23:44And some other singles had invited us to their apartment to eat.
23:49And I believe it was after we ate, we're sitting on the couch.
23:52She hands me two envelopes addressed to me.
23:55So I'm like, oh, what's this?
23:57So I open them, start reading them.
23:59One's from her mother, one's from her dad, giving their blessing on our engagement.
24:03And I looked at her and I said, I guess this means you're saying yes, too, right?
24:08So, anyway, her dad was very good to caution us to not rush into the marriage, to wait.
24:18And Debbie being from a higher, quote unquote, socioeconomic, wealthier family, they didn't want any kind of anyone thinking or
24:29ruining her reputation that maybe we had to get married because she got pregnant.
24:32Well, if that ever happened, we probably both got kicked out of our church anyway.
24:38So, I don't know.
24:40So, yeah, we waited.
24:42I don't know if it was 12 months or whatever.
24:45And we actually ended up living in Lafayette for the first two years at least because our first two children
24:52were born in Lafayette with a midwife.
24:55Thank God, Bruce said, if you're going to have your baby at home, you better have a qualified midwife there
25:00to assist you.
25:01And we did.
25:03And Debbie was low risk and things went well.
25:07Anyway, the way we ended up in West Virginia, in November of 1985, there was a really bad flood there
25:13in the eastern part, I believe, of West Virginia.
25:19And unlike, to my knowledge, unlike any of the other churches, I decided that I should take my crew that
25:27had been flipping houses with me, financed by my father-in-law.
25:33And my grandmother told him one time in person, as we were all together, thinking about what tent-making career
25:41could I do as I struggled with finding a full-time ministry to support the family.
25:48And Debbie's dad was like, this was the 80s.
25:51Why don't you flip some houses?
25:52Okay.
25:54My grandmother interjected and said, Mr. West, Chuck's not a businessman.
25:58Be careful.
26:01Anyway, we never really made a profit on the three houses we flipped, but it did provide full-time employment
26:08for myself and three other brothers in the church during that time.
26:12Well, I decided after this flood to take a crew to West Virginia and help rebuild somebody's home.
26:19And our churches weren't really known for doing that kind of outreach.
26:24But another minister from Faith's Assembly, whose name I feel free to share, Jim Trout, had already been traveling to
26:30Oakland, Maryland for a house meeting.
26:32He was playing his guitar and singing in the gymnasium in this little town of Parsons, West Virginia, in Tucker
26:39County, close to Blackwater Falls, State Park, Monongue Hill, National Forest, Canaan Valley, whatever.
26:45So anyway, that's how Debbie and I ended up back living in West Virginia, building a house for someone after
26:52a flood.
26:53Then I began working with a local Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee minister.
26:58That was a trip.
27:00That was a very, even more wild trip than the Lafayette group because, I mean, these were old-time Pentecostal
27:08people.
27:09And they liked to dance and shout and run the aisles.
27:13And I'll have to admit, I kind of enjoyed a little bit of that because I was a pretty emotional
27:18kind of guy.
27:19But anyway, trying to get to the event that changed my mind theologically, because even though Debbie and I had
27:28moved to West Virginia,
27:31Hobart had died by this time, Bruce had left, Dave Hardy had taken the majority of our Lafayette people into
27:39the vineyard.
27:42So Debbie and I were just kind of out there on our own, working with a Church of God.
27:47And then eventually, and it was a very helpful thing, with a, air quotes again, spirit-filled Methodist minister and
27:55his wife.
27:56He helped me get back on track to finish my undergraduate degree.
28:00And he had a more reasonable faith.
28:05So anyway, while we were living in Parsons, I still was not wearing my glasses.
28:11But one morning I got up and decided, I think, because I grew up hunting not very well, I did
28:17get a deer, but I don't think I ever got a squirrel or a rabbit.
28:21But I decided I was going to take my 20-gauge pump shotgun out into the Monongahela forest and look
28:28for a squirrel.
28:30Well, I got in the van, shouldn't have been driving, blind as a bat, no driver's license.
28:36But I justified it that I was taking, you know, the gravel road along the river, Shaver's Fork River, up
28:44into the area where I could hunt.
28:46And then I walk out into the field, I don't know, 100 yards or so, and just enjoying nature.
28:53And then I hear rustling in the leaves.
28:56And I'm like, oh, it must be a squirrel.
28:59So I already had a shell chambered, but I took the gun off safety.
29:04And lo and behold, it's a deer.
29:06And it's looking at me.
29:07I'm looking at him.
29:08All I have is birdshot.
29:10It wasn't deer season.
29:11I wasn't going to shoot the thing, but I wanted to watch it.
29:13But as it started to walk away up over the hill, without my glasses, I thought I wanted a better
29:20view.
29:21So I put the muzzle of the gun down toward the ground like I'd always been taught to get my
29:25binoculars and watch the deer walk away.
29:28As I lowered the muzzle, boom, the gun went off.
29:32My left foot felt like it went to sleep.
29:35It just was a numb, tingling sensation.
29:39I immediately knew what had happened.
29:40And I start bleeding the blood, air quotes again, speaking in tongues.
29:46I see a hole in my hunting boot where the left eyelets were.
29:50And thankfully, it twisted my foot sideways so it didn't go through my foot because this was pretty much point
29:56blank.
29:58Twisted my foot sideways so it just kind of cut a channel out of the top of my foot and
30:03blew the side of the hunting boot out.
30:06And I was just, yeah, I didn't know what to think.
30:12I ejected the rest of the shells.
30:14I hobbled back to my van.
30:17This was before cell phones.
30:18I saw a farmhouse, but I thought the time it would take for me to go to the farmhouse, call
30:23the ambulance, the ambulance to get to me and then back to the hospital.
30:27Which at this time, I wasn't sure what I was going to do about this.
30:30I, you know, quote unquote, claimed to my healing.
30:34Fortunately, it wasn't bleeding because of the heat and the gunpowder cauterized it, I suppose.
30:41But then I'm in a hurry to get back to the house on this windy gravel road.
30:46And I about spin out and put the van over the hill into the river.
30:51So I slowed down.
30:53I finally get back to the house.
30:55Debbie sees me hobbling up to the house and I'm praising the Lord.
30:59Thank you, Jesus.
31:00You know, and she comes out and says, honey, did God heal your eyes?
31:05I'm like, no, I shot myself in the foot.
31:10Oh, my goodness.
31:12I can laugh now.
31:13And that's the other point I wanted to make is I process a lot of this stuff with humor.
31:20And it doesn't mean I'm making light of what we were in or the people who suffered more greatly and
31:26lost babies and children and lives and spouses.
31:29It's just the way I process my past.
31:34You and I are very much alike in that whenever you have something that's so incredibly painful,
31:39the only way that you can rewire it is to associate it with another memory.
31:44I usually try to associate it with humor.
31:46The problem is, as you have probably seen if you watch the podcast, sometimes my humor comes at the wrong
31:52time.
31:53And people, they misunderstand what I'm doing.
31:56But it's me trying to rewire my head.
31:58Because some of the things that we went through were so horrific.
32:01No person, no human should have to go through some of the things that we endured.
32:05But yet, that was the religion.
32:07That was the indoctrination.
32:09Yeah, we thought we were pleasing God.
32:12Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started?
32:16Or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new
32:24apostolic reformation?
32:25You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
32:33On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
32:41John McKinnon, and others,
32:42with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
32:47You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
32:53If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
32:59top.
33:00And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
33:06watching.
33:07On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
33:11So I go in our bathroom and take the boot and the heavy wool sock off,
33:17and Debbie's looking at it and practicing positive confessions.
33:22Oh, honey, it's already healing.
33:24It's already beginning.
33:25It's clotting.
33:26It's okay.
33:27I glance down.
33:28It looks like, sorry, chopped raw hamburger to me.
33:31And I about pass out from being in shock.
33:35And so my first thought was, call Charlie Hebb.
33:39The old Pentecostal man lived up the hill from us, went to the same Pentecostal church.
33:45Have him come pray for me.
33:46All right, so he shows up, prays for me, does a little Pentecostal dance, and goes home.
33:53But then I start feeling faint again, and this is, with hindsight, my first clue to the warped view of
34:01faith that we had.
34:02I'm thinking, if I pass out, I can't have faith through my healing.
34:06How am I going to be healed if I'm unconscious or, you know, passed out?
34:11And, you know, I thought my healing was based on me exercising faith, and it was so warped.
34:17But anyway, so the second time I was passed out, I told Debbie, I said, okay, call 911.
34:23So she did, and I think in the meantime, she called other friends in the Lafayette church to pray for
34:28me, too.
34:31Oh, and I know some might say, if I had obeyed the law of the land and not driven,
34:36if I had obeyed the prophet Freeman and gotten rid of my guns earlier, this would have never happened.
34:42I was disobeying the law of the land and the prophet, so what do you expect?
34:46Because the gun was involved, the town marshal shows up, the sheriff's deputy, the Department of Natural Resources,
34:54all these law enforcement people show up in this little town at my house to make sure that it was
35:00a hunting accident
35:01and that Debbie hadn't gotten mad at me and tried to shoot me.
35:05So anyway, I submitted at that time to go down to the local clinic.
35:10The doctor on staff said, we need to get you to the hospital.
35:13That needs cleaned out.
35:15Oh, no, no, I'm being stubborn.
35:17I'm like, just show my wife how to bandage it up and send me home and God will take care
35:22of it.
35:22Again, what was I thinking?
35:24I wasn't thinking.
35:26In fact, the doctor was so concerned that the hospital, on my behalf, and I have it here in front
35:33of me now,
35:34petitioned the Tucker County Court to have me submit to surgery.
35:43It says that, and they called me Charlie for some reason.
35:47Nobody there called me Charlie, but somebody decided to call me Charlie.
35:51Charlie Davis sustained a shotgun injury to his foot, blah, blah, blah, has a serious injury,
35:57which requires medical treatment to prevent tetanus, infection, gangrene, other complications,
36:01which may result in amputation of a limb or a portion thereof, or loss of life, which has been explained
36:07to him.
36:08But he has refused to consent to the needed treatment on the stated basis that he does not believe in
36:14medical treatment.
36:14Charlie Davis will not voluntarily submit to receiving medical treatment and has left Tucker County Hospital against medical advice.
36:22And then they named the treating physician James Rich, and without such treatment, they repeat what could happen.
36:30But then this, at the time, I thought was great.
36:33The judge, again, who didn't know me, I don't know if he talked to my neighbors or who,
36:38but he said that despite the fact that all risks and benefits have been fully explained to Charlie Davis,
36:47the petitioner then requested the court to order him to submit to medical treatment against his will.
36:52The court refuses to grant the petition, and here's where I don't know how the judge came to this conclusion.
37:00The court finds that Charlie Davis may refuse medical treatment if he so desires an adult in his right mind.
37:07I don't know how they decided I was in my right mind.
37:12And I have no animosity toward them.
37:15I thought it was, you know, great freedom of religion thing, you know,
37:19that they would not force me to get medical treatment against my will.
37:22And I still think adults should have that choice.
37:25When it comes to children, it's a different story.
37:27Yeah, it's hard to say.
37:29There are, I know my wife, her family was connected to the Amish in Ohio.
37:35And maybe not this exact situation, but there are situations where the government just can't.
37:40There are no laws that allow them to.
37:42The gray area is whenever you're in a Pentecostal-type church, it's not like the Amish.
37:48So your rules are still kind of governed by the land.
37:51So where do you draw that separation line?
37:53Yeah, there can be, like you're saying with the Amish or even Jehovah's Witnesses on blood transfusions,
37:58a long history that is within their religious community.
38:04Yeah, I went home and Debbie was changing the bandage.
38:08And I lasted seven days without medical, proper medical treatment,
38:14until I was lying on my back holding my foot in the air from throbbing pain.
38:20And it just became unbearable.
38:23And I guess I'm not as strong or have a highest pain threshold as those who went on to die,
38:29because that's probably what I would have done or submitted the amputation later.
38:33But no, after the pain set in, my prayer became,
38:39Jesus, you know I would gladly die for you.
38:42And to this day, I still believe I would have.
38:46But I said, I can't take any more pain.
38:50You know, so they wanted to life flight me by this time to the West Virginia University Hospital,
38:56but the weather conditions prevented the helicopter flight.
38:59So a minister friend who had been staying with us in the past came,
39:04accompanied me in the ambulance ride, a couple hours, two and a half hours,
39:08whatever it was, from where we lived to the West Virginia University Hospital.
39:12So it was Thanksgiving Day, actually, that the way I tell the story,
39:15I was the turkey being carved on in 1988.
39:19And before they took me in for the surgery to debride, I think is the medical term,
39:24clean out the buckshot, which was lead and could have been blood poisoning,
39:29wool sock, shoe leather, maybe some brass eyelets, I don't know.
39:33But they said, do you want to go fully under or just have local anesthesia?
39:39And I'm pretty sure I chose both, if that was even an option, I don't know.
39:43And again, my prayer by that time, and this is the sad thing about the influence and effect of these
39:49cults,
39:50I wasn't sure if I was going to make it through that surgery or not.
39:54And if I didn't, I wasn't sure I would go to heaven.
39:58I was thinking, I might go to hell, because here I am, trusting the arm of the flesh.
40:02Darrell Bock Yeah, it's so sad that they wrapped healing into the atonement
40:07and made it so that your salvation and your healing were one and the same.
40:11That's good for a person who's healthy all the time, but what about the people who aren't?
40:15And that's really where it gets sad.
40:17I have, as I've mentioned several times, I have family members who have chronic illness.
40:22And what's interesting is there comes a point in which you realize that you're just never going to get better,
40:27even though you're supposed to.
40:29And there comes a point in which your brain has to logically switch that, flip that switch,
40:34that says either, A, I'm going to hell because I'm not getting any better and healing is in my atonement,
40:40or B, I must be the special case.
40:43And the problem is, I think a lot of people just choose the special case route
40:47and never take it the step further to understand, well, do we need a special case,
40:51or is the entire religion we're in, is it incorrect?
40:54Oh, yeah. But that's when I decided that, yeah, something was wrong with my theology
41:01that I had learned and embraced from Freeman, Kinsey, all the faith teachers,
41:07and that I had been teaching myself in some small home groups.
41:10And so, if I was going to do a before and after picture, I have a before picture,
41:15and eventually I may create my own website or do something to share information with pictures,
41:20but the before picture would be me standing on the hillside in my hunting gear,
41:25just looking like the great white hunter.
41:27And then the after picture, oh, and the great man of faith, maybe,
41:31who doesn't get sick or need medical help.
41:33And then the after picture is me standing in the living room on crutches wearing glasses.
41:40And I'm sure Debbie was happy, as could be that not only was I still there
41:45to help her raise our four children at the time, but now I could drive,
41:49I could get better employment.
41:52Yeah, our life kind of took a turn for the better after we both decided that, yeah,
42:01we can't twist God's arm to you list every time without medical intervention.
42:05I think the big moment for me, whenever I had to come to terms with the fact
42:09that something was wrong with the religion, I had a nephew who had gone through a battle,
42:16was just starting a battle with cancer.
42:18And I watched the response whenever I tried to go to the leaders of the movement.
42:24I won't give their names, but I tried to go and just connect with them
42:28so that they could pray the prayer of faith and make the nephew better.
42:32And it was a severe case.
42:34I mean, it was a horrific battle with cancer.
42:37And watching the response, they knew that nothing was going to happen,
42:41that they did not have the power to cure this,
42:44even though they had preached it for 37 of my years, me being in a cult, right?
42:49Hearing their response and the way that they responded,
42:53I suddenly realized at that moment something's not right,
42:55but I still didn't connect the dots that this is a religion problem.
42:59I actually went to the fault of the leaders.
43:02I thought, well, those guys really don't believe.
43:05But anyway, the problem really, when I look back at everything that happened for 37 years,
43:13I don't even really fault the movement so much as I fault myself.
43:16I really should have been critically thinking.
43:19I should have looked at everything that was happening.
43:21They gave me all the information to make my decisions.
43:24Why did I not?
43:25Some of it, yes, I can attribute to the mind control of the group or the group think.
43:29But in the end, each person has to come to their own realization,
43:33and they have to leave themselves, or they'll just stay in it forever.
43:37And that's exactly, you know, I do think alike on most of these issues.
43:43Last night, as Debbie and I were discussing these things,
43:47I told her, you know, I said, yes, at 19, early 20s,
43:52a lot of us were very gullible, very naive.
43:54And in your case, you were brought up in the sect.
43:57But in my case, and I think Chinna was coming in in your late teens, early 20s,
44:02we can be more idealistic, naive, and maybe even imaginative
44:07and believe that this power exists for us to have.
44:12But as I discussed with Debbie last night,
44:17I'm not going to blame Hobart Freeman or Bruce Kinsey for my choices.
44:21As I became an older adult, especially,
44:24I'm agreeing with what you say there,
44:26that we should have been able, in my case,
44:30to listen to family members, to listen to others who are saying,
44:33take a look at this, examine what you're trying to do here.
44:38And so, yeah, I own my part in being a member of the cult
44:44and following the crazy teachings that, yeah,
44:49that I could be healed and see others healed
44:54every time, without exception, if I had the faith.
44:57So, I hope people,
45:00because I think to really heal
45:01and experience restoration,
45:04we can't continue
45:07holding on to the idea that we were a victim.
45:09Yes, we were,
45:10to a certain degree,
45:12but yes, we also,
45:14we also made conscious decisions
45:16to try and live that way.
45:18It's definitely a hard thing to come to terms with,
45:21because one of the other difficulties,
45:23I work with people from all over different cults
45:26who, as they're trying to help family members out,
45:29they're trying to say,
45:30what can I say to help that person out?
45:32And in the end,
45:33it's not really what you say,
45:35it's what they believe.
45:37No amount of facts that you throw their way
45:39is going to convince them.
45:40They have to come to the realization that it's wrong.
45:42So, internally,
45:44each person in of themselves
45:46has the ability to make the decision.
45:50The problem is,
45:51the information sometimes is withheld,
45:53because the cult leadership won't tell you,
45:55hey, we're in a faith-healing group,
45:57and our batting average is like 5%.
46:00That's, I mean, I hate to say it,
46:02but that's really what it comes out to.
46:03Oh, yeah.
46:05We were just so caught up in it
46:06that we didn't see that it was 5%.
46:09Had we had all the information,
46:10maybe we would have made the decision.
46:12But in the end,
46:13what I've come to realize is that
46:15it takes a lot of humbling your pride
46:18to be able to even exit.
46:20If you're filled with pride,
46:21you may never exit.
46:23You may believe it until your dying day.
46:26But I have watched people,
46:27I had one guy contact me,
46:28I want to say he was in his mid-80s,
46:31and he said,
46:32John, it was the hardest thing I had to do,
46:34but I had to release the pride that I had
46:37to admit that I was wrong
46:39and finally walk away.
46:40It was definitely a spiritual elitism mindset.
46:45And I'm thankful for the family that stood by me
46:48and Debbie's family and supported us.
46:52They're showing us love and true Christ-likeness.
46:56Eventually, I believe, helped us escape that mindset.
47:01You know, seeing love in practice.
47:05Yeah, but like you said,
47:06yeah, we couldn't have been argued out of our faith,
47:09but they're constantly being there to show support,
47:12not enabling us,
47:13not agreeing with us,
47:15but just supporting us,
47:17loving us,
47:17helping us with our children
47:19that, yeah,
47:20meant the world to us.
47:21So what advice would you give people
47:23who are caught up in this,
47:25who are filled with pride
47:27and need to find a way out?
47:29How do you bridge that gap?
47:31How do you make a person realize
47:33that the only thing really stopping you
47:36from escaping is yourself?
47:38Well, the first piece of advice,
47:39I'm going to make a joke
47:41and tell them,
47:42I will loan you my shotgun
47:43and send you out in the woods
47:44to go hunting.
47:46But if you experience
47:48a self-inflicted gunshot wound,
47:49it may change your theology.
47:51But on a serious note,
47:54one of,
47:55and I know,
47:57I know,
47:57I know,
47:58my evangelical,
47:59super conservative friends
48:00will think I'm a liberal now
48:03to use these
48:04hags and terminology,
48:06but going back to school
48:08with the encouragement
48:11of this Methodist,
48:12charismatic Methodist pastor
48:13in West Virginia,
48:15going back to school
48:16really helped me
48:18get the bigger picture.
48:22You know,
48:23I've got a book called
48:24Stages of Faith
48:25by James Fowler.
48:26Are you familiar with that one?
48:28No.
48:29It goes around
48:31the Methodist circles
48:32and Methodist seminaries
48:33or whatever,
48:34but this guy took
48:35the social information
48:37of the sociologist,
48:40Erickson,
48:41Piaget,
48:42and Kohlberg,
48:42and applied it
48:43to stages
48:45of faith
48:46in our life.
48:48And just,
48:49you know,
48:50Google,
48:50use Google,
48:51read some books,
48:53follow your podcast,
48:55let God renew
48:57your mind
48:58through
48:59some
49:00science-based
49:01education,
49:02maybe?
49:03Is that a way
49:04to put it?
49:04one last thought.
49:06The other thing
49:07that helped change
49:07my mind
49:08in my Methodist
49:10influences
49:10in school,
49:13a Methodist theologian
49:14named Albert Atler
49:15came up
49:16with what he felt
49:17was John Wesley's
49:18way of living
49:20and experiencing
49:21God
49:21and interpreting
49:22Scripture.
49:23It's come to be known
49:24as the Wesley
49:25quadrilateral,
49:26four sides,
49:27and that's
49:28Scripture,
49:29experience,
49:29reason,
49:30and tradition.
49:31And I think
49:32after listening
49:33to your podcast,
49:34we can
49:34very comfortably,
49:36easily
49:37change tradition
49:38to history.
49:39If you
49:40try to experience
49:41God
49:42through
49:42understanding
49:43Scripture
49:44with
49:44real-life
49:46personal experience,
49:47reason,
49:48don't throw out
49:49common sense,
49:50and history,
49:51the Wesley
49:52quadrilateral,
49:53I think,
49:54would help
49:54people escape
49:55cults
49:55and avoid
49:56cults.
49:56You know,
49:57it's funny
49:57because I grew
49:58up hearing
49:59many of the
50:00same doctrines
50:01that you heard,
50:02but you had
50:03them slightly
50:03more extreme
50:04because Branham
50:05died before
50:05it could get
50:06as extreme.
50:07But we had
50:09the same
50:09foundational doctrines.
50:10One of them,
50:11we were strongly
50:12against education.
50:14The group that I was
50:15in preached
50:15against it.
50:16I was allowed
50:18to go to grade
50:18school,
50:19and I went
50:19to high school.
50:20I had friends
50:21who weren't
50:22allowed to go
50:22to high school.
50:23They could go
50:23to grade school,
50:24and I have friends
50:25who couldn't
50:25go to anything.
50:26They had to
50:26be either
50:27homeschooled
50:28or not
50:28schooled at
50:28all.
50:29And I remember
50:31hearing sermons
50:31from not just
50:32one,
50:32but multiple
50:33pastors about
50:34how I have
50:35watched time
50:36and time
50:36again when
50:37people in
50:37this message,
50:38they go to
50:39school,
50:39they get so
50:40smart that they
50:41leave the religion
50:42altogether.
50:43And at the
50:43time,
50:44I'm thinking,
50:44wow,
50:45that demon
50:45of that
50:46education system
50:47has got you,
50:48buddy.
50:49And now I
50:50look back,
50:50look at the
50:51sheer volume
50:53of information
50:53that is withheld
50:54to the people,
50:55and then
50:56think about
50:57those who
50:57went to
50:58college and
50:59suddenly realize,
51:00wait a minute,
51:01they're not
51:02telling me the
51:03whole truth.
51:03And they may not
51:04even encounter
51:05anything to do
51:06with religion
51:06in the college,
51:07but they may
51:08have just
51:09encountered some
51:10detail that was
51:11given to them
51:11incorrectly.
51:12Will they go
51:13find that detail?
51:14Well,
51:14if you take
51:15that detail,
51:16if they preached
51:16that wrong and
51:17built that doctrine
51:18on top of it,
51:19now the doctrine
51:20topples.
51:20And so what
51:22other doctrines
51:22are there?
51:23So that's kind
51:24of how this
51:24unravels.
51:25That's how it
51:25unraveled in my
51:26mind anyway.
51:27So I've seen
51:28time and time
51:29again this
51:29happen.
51:30Very good
51:31advice to go
51:32get education.
51:34I would say
51:35the only thing
51:36that I would
51:36supplement to
51:37this,
51:38I have given
51:39the advice,
51:40and I've had a
51:40few people give
51:41the advice,
51:42the number one
51:43way to leave
51:44a cult,
51:44if you're in
51:45one,
51:46is to actually
51:47study the cult,
51:48if you're in
51:49one.
51:50There are
51:50people,
51:51sadly,
51:52there are
51:52people who
51:52are in it
51:53just because
51:53their parents
51:54were,
51:54they have no
51:55idea what
51:56they're supposed
51:57to believe.
51:58And the moment
51:58that they come
51:59in contact
52:00with a real
52:01cult,
52:02they're like,
52:02oh my gosh,
52:03what in the
52:04world am I in?
52:05This is awful.
52:06So my advice
52:07is just simply
52:08study the cult
52:08doctrine if you're
52:09in a cult,
52:10and it's a good
52:11way of escape.
52:12Yeah,
52:13real quick,
52:13John,
52:13a good introductory
52:14book that I've
52:14not heard you
52:15mention that helped
52:17me was Kingdom
52:18of the Cults by
52:19Walter Martin.
52:20Very good book.
52:21I've read that.
52:21I actually have
52:22recommended that a
52:23few times.
52:24I was studying
52:25Walter Martin
52:26whenever I was
52:28studying Pentecostalism
52:29because I was
52:29trying to see,
52:31at that point,
52:32in my brain,
52:33Pentecostalism was
52:34one thing.
52:35I did not know
52:36it was a splinter
52:37group of a thousand
52:38different sects.
52:38So I was studying it
52:41and I came across
52:42his debate with
52:43the UPCI,
52:45and he was trying
52:46to determine,
52:47is the UPCI a cult?
52:49And he formed
52:50his opinion.
52:50I'm not going to
52:51tell it.
52:51You can go read
52:52Kingdom of the Cults
52:53if you want.
52:55But in the end,
52:56what he came to
52:57the conclusion
52:57whenever he was
52:59trying to decide,
53:00is a group a cult,
53:01is how do they
53:02react to other
53:03Christians?
53:04Do they see them
53:06as another party?
53:08Is it an us
53:08versus them mentality?
53:10Are they exclusive?
53:11And that was
53:12his criteria.
53:13And once I learned
53:14that criteria,
53:15I started to examine
53:16all of the groups
53:17and realized,
53:17well, wait a minute.
53:18There are an awful
53:19lot of cults
53:20who aren't even
53:21yet branded as cults.
53:22So that's a really,
53:24really good book.
53:25All right.
53:25Yeah.
53:26Thanks so much, John.
53:27Well, thanks for
53:28doing this.
53:28Yes, sir.
53:29See you next time.
53:31Well, if you've
53:31enjoyed our show
53:32and you want more
53:32information or to
53:33share your story,
53:34you can check us
53:35out on the web.
53:35You can find us
53:36at william-branham.org.
53:38For more about
53:39the dark side
53:39of the new
53:40apostolic reformation,
53:41you can read
53:42Weaponized Religion
53:42from Christian Identity
53:44to the NAR.
53:45Available on Amazon,
53:46Kindle, and Audible.
54:32in the new
54:33Cancet Identity yapıyorsun,
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