Charismatic Worship, False Gospels, And The Music That Shapes Belief | Podcast Episode 614 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John Collins sits down with John and Barbara Morton to trace how modern charismatic worship culture shapes belief, emotion, and church life. Drawing from their years on a worship team, they describe how music from movements tied to Bethel, Hillsong, Elevation, Vineyard, and related streams can carry theological assumptions that many listeners never notice at first.  The discussion explores worship as doctrine, the emotional power of repetition, spiritual warfare culture, personal revelation, prophetic influence, and the shift from performance-driven worship to Scripture-centered church life. Along the way, they reflect on leaving a charismatic environment, reevaluating familiar songs, and rebuilding a more grounded understanding of worship, theology, and the Christian life.  00:00 Introduction 01:32 Barbara Morton’s Worship Team Background 03:15 Reckless Love, Poetic License, and Questionable Worship Lyrics 06:00 John Morton’s Experience Playing Lead Guitar in Worship 08:05 Hidden Theology in Worship Music 13:24 How Music Shaped Their Theology 17:44 Theology Leads to Doxology 21:02 Spiritual Warfare Worldview vs. Biblical Worldview 22:07 Personal Revelation in Songwriting 25:19 The Rest of the Gospel, Spiritualism, and Branham Connections 28:31 Charismatic Music and Modern Worship Sources 31:49 Bad Theology in Christian Radio and Worship Songs 34:09 Hypnosis, Emotional Worship, and Spiritual Experiences 36:42 Psychology, Repetition, and Trance States in Worship 39:13 Psychology, Theophostics, and Fear After Leaving 42:38 Depression, Songwriting, and the “Anointing” 46:30 Grounding Music in Scripture Instead of Emotional Hype 48:32 Leaving Their Old Church and Finding Expository Teaching 50:29 Prophecy, Soaking Prayer, and Psychic-Like Experiences 52:23 Emotional Hype as a Ministry Dependency 53:03 Advice for People Still in Charismatic Ministries 54:32 Closing ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:28Transcription by CastingWords

00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.

00:42And with me, I have my very special guests, John and Barbara Morton, former members of the Charismatic Worship Team.

00:49John, Barbara, good to have you on.

00:52We were talking briefly about the worship styles and the different types of music and the convictions you had, which

00:59I'll let you tell that part of the story.

01:01But I just want to say that I actually was part of the same culture.

01:07When I came out of the movement that we came out of, we weren't allowed any of the new styles

01:10of music.

01:11We were only allowed the old 1950s style and came out and I started exploring all of these different types

01:18of new music and started thinking through the lyrics.

01:21And I'm like, no, man, this is just wrong.

01:23What is this stuff that I'm playing and listening to?

01:26I had convictions.

01:27And with that, I'll let you introduce yourself and talk about your story.

01:31Okay, well, I'm Barbara Morton, and I was one of the leaders on our worship team, which is also funny

01:41thinking about some of my attitudes in a Christian church, where I would say we didn't really address sin as

01:52much as we addressed brokenness.

01:54And there are so many different teachings that led to where I think I became part of the leadership team,

02:06because I think I didn't have the greatest attitude.

02:10I had a lot of complaints and gripes on the team.

02:12I had a musical background.

02:14Not everybody else did.

02:17I can't even remember my gripes so much.

02:19But I do remember having an attitude that I don't think, in retrospect, should have been promoted as one of

02:26the leaders.

02:27But ultimately, that's what happened.

02:29And so we got to rotate and pick and choose different sets for the different Sundays that we had.

02:38And yeah, so we did pick a lot from these sources.

02:44You know, I mean, back in the day, before we even had a band, we had sang over split tracks.

02:51And we did a lot of singing over, I guess, Ron Cannoli, Robin Mark.

02:58I don't know if you know these names.

03:00A lot of vineyard music from the John Wimber times.

03:03And I loved all of it.

03:05I loved all of it.

03:06And then we got a band and things progressed.

03:10We changed church buildings, changed our name from a fellowship to a community church without naming names.

03:17And yeah, I don't know.

03:20The trouble with the music, really, I remember we had a member on our team and he had a problem

03:26with the idea of Jesus having a reckless love.

03:32And that was one of the songs from Bethel, I believe.

03:36And I thought, come on, it's poetic license.

03:39You know, I didn't see it as being anything that you would not want to sing.

03:45You know, come on, it's music, it's poetry, it's beautiful.

03:49And, you know, but then that whole idea that we were being taught a lot about intimacy with Christ and

03:55intimacy and all of these things.

03:58I mean, I can go through so many different teachings that we've had that you've discussed a lot of the

04:03origins with certain people on your podcast.

04:07You know, you talked about the feelings of an attitude that you had.

04:10I remember some of those feelings and I remember working with other people who would have them and they would

04:17get on the worship team and they would be so filled with pride that whenever they would step out on

04:22the stage, you could just feel the arrogance as they walked out.

04:25And I was reading the Bible and I was learning the New Testament for the first time for, you know,

04:31in my life.

04:32For 37 years, I was taught differently than what it said.

04:35So I'm reading it for myself and I'm starting to notice pride is the main sin listed almost all throughout

04:41the New Testament.

04:42And I started watching some of the leadership, some of the song musicians, etc.

04:48And you're right.

04:49There's this atmosphere that's different than I think it should be for worship.

04:53And the other thing you said I really want to focus on is the poetic license.

04:58I am now having been raised in this corral of what types of music I'm allowed to listen to.

05:05Now I listen to all.

05:06You should see my Spotify playlist of every single genre you can imagine.

05:11I'm listening to everything and I'm learning that even the songs that are talking about bad things sometimes are just

05:18simply telling a story.

05:20It would be like reading a book or watching a movie.

05:22It's not that I want to do these bad things, but those things as poetic license, you wouldn't want them

05:28in the church's worship.

05:29For example, and it's not one of my favorite songs, but to those who like the song Highway to Hell,

05:35it's talking very much about telling a story.

05:38It is a pathway to destruction, it's telling that story.

05:43You wouldn't sing that in the worship team.

05:45You'd be surprised these days.

05:48Yeah, exactly.

05:49We had a song of hard fought, hallelujah.

05:52You know, I've been to hell and back, hallelujah.

05:55I mean, that was one of the last songs we did together at the old church.

06:00We were on the worship team together.

06:02Barbara was one of the leaders.

06:03I was under Barbara and one of the other four leaders at any given week.

06:07And I played lead guitar.

06:09And for me to play my instrument, I'm an old 80s child, rock and roll, heavy metal guy.

06:16And all of a sudden, I'm able to play the lead guitar and worship Christ as I think I am.

06:23I'm getting all this emotion and I'm being able to stir emotion with people.

06:26And we're playing all the contemporary stuff.

06:29And I'm really, you know, learning on getting all the sounds right because I'm the only guitar player.

06:34So I have to learn how to do all these layered sounds.

06:37And I'm doing that.

06:38And I'm really, really into that for 12 years.

06:42And I did realize that that became my idol.

06:46I really wasn't going to church so much to learn about the Lord.

06:50I was just going to show my skill and play my guitar.

06:55And then from I started learning through the American gospel and other things that the music we were doing,

07:03a lot of the bands we were doing in the contemporary music scene are it's not they're not good sources.

07:10They're not music you want to worship God to.

07:14And it just got me reading my word and got me really learning.

07:18And it was like butting heads because I'm living with one of the leaders here.

07:22And it was hard at first when I said I would wait.

07:25Lyrics for a song that we were doing the following Sunday would wake me up and I'd be like, I

07:30can't sleep.

07:31Those lyrics are haunting me.

07:33It doesn't make sense.

07:34And so we had a couple of meetings with the pastors, the leaders.

07:39And I was just told, you do, you just do what you need to do and don't, you don't worry

07:47about it.

07:47Because I was taking it as I'm one of the worship leaders in a way and I'm leading people down

07:54the wrong road because it's a way of teaching.

07:56You're teaching through your doxology.

07:59Which these are all new words to me, by the way.

08:01So that's where we were at.

08:05And we should probably break that down for the listeners because not everybody who is on the worship team can

08:11understand what you're saying.

08:12But I actually just had this conversation yesterday with this guy.

08:16We were talking about, he was talking about the Bethel music style as well.

08:21And his phrase was something to the effect that when they're doing the lyrics, there are sometimes messaging within the

08:29lyrics that people can't pick up on.

08:31The average person is not going to know.

08:33And what he mentioned was the Joe's Army themes.

08:36If you're singing about the army, building the army, things like this, to the average person, what is this?

08:42It just sounds, you know, it sounds poetic license-y.

08:46But in effect, it is actually talking about the Joe's Army Manifest Sons of God doctrines, which is a very

08:54destructive theology.

08:56But I started thinking about, as he was talking, the different ways in which you can use music.

09:02So, a person who's listening to on the radio doesn't know that this is there and just kind of ignores

09:06it.

09:07But then, if they have a big convention, they can play this to the Joe's Army branding, the themes, etc.

09:12And this turns into something entirely different.

09:15Yeah, we're wondering, too, because not knowing so much about Joe's Army, really learning it through your podcasts.

09:23And I'm sure somehow our church adopted something from that, because it took, I'm telling you, every little bit and

09:31piece that you've been mentioning.

09:33I'm like, we have a little bit of this, a little bit of Derek Prince, a little bit of Randy

09:39Clark, a little bit of Chuck Pierce, you know, a little bit of all the older guys.

09:43And then, to find out their origin is mind-boggling.

09:46But going back to that, I think of the Tasha Cobb song, Break Every Chain.

09:53You know, there's an army rising up.

09:55There's an army rising up.

09:57And, of course, you're going to repeat that how many other times.

09:59There's an army rising up to break every chain.

10:01And I don't know if that fits in with the Joel's Army teachings, but that's what first occurred to me

10:08when it was, I heard it on the podcast.

10:10So, I thought, hmm, I wonder if that's what they're talking about that we wouldn't recognize necessarily, but it's in

10:17their music.

10:18Right.

10:18Well, the problem really was, it wasn't so much the lyrics, because you could look over the lyrics and go,

10:25wow, these lyrics are sound.

10:26They seem sound, anyway, especially through a charismatic lens.

10:30It seems sound.

10:32You're like, okay, it seems sound.

10:33But you have to realize these lyrics are coming from churches that are actually preaching a false gospel.

10:39And like it says in the book of Jude about the false gospel, and the whole Old Testament, except for

10:45the book of Philemon, warns about false teachers.

10:47And the fact that we were up there singing songs that were coming from churches that were not only preaching

10:53all kinds of false messages, it was a false gospel.

10:56So, if you're preaching a false gospel and you have a false Christ, you're leading people down the wrong road.

11:01And the problem is, is these groups are so big, your Bethel, your Hillsong, your Elevation, they're so big that

11:09you do them, and people unknowingly in your congregation go, that was a great song.

11:14And they look it up on YouTube, and they start listening to it.

11:17And all of a sudden, the algorithm picks it up.

11:19And now you're getting Bill Johnson's sermons, you're getting Stephen Furtick's sermons, you're getting Brian Houston's sermons, and you just

11:26did it.

11:26You just put them on a road.

11:28You just put them on a highway to hell.

11:30You know what I'm saying?

11:33So, that was a problem for me.

11:38I'm actually glad you brought that up.

11:40As a tech guy, I know how all of that works, and I'm hesitant to bring that up, because I

11:44didn't know if it would resonate with the listeners.

11:47But the algorithms do pick it up, and it changes everything.

11:52I mean, I don't use social media like other people.

11:55I mainly do it to post the stuff.

11:57I don't spend much time on it.

11:59But I can be talking to my wife, and we'll be talking about something simple like, I need to change

12:06the doorknob.

12:07Well, if I do open social media, even though I didn't even have it open when I said this, now

12:11I've got doorknobs in my advertisements.

12:13The thing is listening.

12:14And I know how this works as a tech guy.

12:17Well, take that to the next level.

12:19You've got all of these themes in the music, and now the AI is actually smart enough to know what

12:25type of Christian are you, because there's different categories.

12:28Oh, yes.

12:29So they listen to the music, and oh, they're the Joel's Army type Christian.

12:33Let's give them these sermons.

12:35And the problem is, from my perspective, I go through all these lineages of history.

12:41So this guy was in this group, and then he splintered off, and this other group was formed, and that

12:46trained this guy.

12:47I've got this spider web of all these mappings.

12:50It doesn't necessarily mean that the person had bad intentions.

12:54They may have split off just because it was a destructive group.

12:57But the problem is, when they do this, unless they go ground themselves in theology and relearn everything, they're still

13:05going to spread remnants of the doctrines.

13:08Those who are musicians, like me, those remnants would make it into the music.

13:12So like you're saying, it's not that we're preaching a sermon through the music, but we can put themes in

13:18it.

13:18And now in today's world, with AI and all of the algorithms, those themes become catastrophic.

13:23Yeah, I think, you know, when you're saying you're not preaching a sermon through the music, I think a lot,

13:30though, of my theology was coming from the music I was listening to.

13:37Early on, I got saved outside of the church with a series of events, and I accepted the Lord, and

13:44I knew that I knew that I knew.

13:48You know, this is it, Jesus is real, now I have to find a church.

13:52But the funny thing is, the person that introduced me to the Lord gave me a book with, a book,

14:00I'm sorry, a bag filled with a book by Kenneth Copeland and Gloria Copeland and Mere Christianity by C.S.

14:07Lewis.

14:07And, you know, now I'm praying and believing my whole way home from, I was going from California to New

14:15York.

14:15Southern California, ironically, is pretty much where I guess I would think I got saved, but where everything happens, apparently.

14:25So, now I'm looking for a church with some of that in mind, and as I'm a worship leader now,

14:33and we're doing this music, I feel like there is power in what we're doing.

14:38You know, when we're singing something like from Carrie Jobe and Cody Carnes, The Blessing, you know, you're singing, may

14:46his favor be upon you for a thousand generations and their children and their children.

14:51And you're looking around at all these beautiful faces, and you're praying over them and believing that this, what you're

14:58doing, is somehow going to make a difference in their lives.

15:03And it's a bit of a rude awakening when you realize that that's probably not really happening, you know, when

15:12you're just making a lot of noise, it might sound good, you might feel like there's power, but when you

15:19open your Bible and realize that, you know what, what Jesus did on that cross is sufficient, and if I

15:25share the gospel with people, that's good.

15:27And hopefully, the Lord will get a hold of them, but I'm not very powerful.

15:33It's been a rough year after the 26 years of believing that somehow I had this kind of power.

15:41And the music, I haven't even been able to listen to that much music until recently, because it's way too,

15:49it made me feel way too emotional.

15:51It was rough.

15:52Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.

15:54And one thing that I'll point out, there are groups of Christians who believe very much that the world is

16:01filled with angels and demons and calling out spirits.

16:04There are other Christians who do not.

16:05If you're in the category where you do, what you're doing as a music leader, you're actually worshiping, which is

16:12part of a ritual.

16:13And if you're in this ritual and you're calling down a spirit, and you're not calling down the God of

16:19the Bible, what spirit are you calling down?

16:21Exactly.

16:21So that's really the big question that's being raised.

16:25Whenever I left this, I lived in such a world of angels and demons, I thought if you stumped your

16:30toe, you got the stump-toe demon.

16:33I don't believe to that level anymore.

16:36But there is a problem with it, and it changes your mentality.

16:40Because as you're doing this, you feel that you're a part of the ritual.

16:45But more than that, you feel like you are the one calling down the spirits.

16:48And so, in doing so, if it's not the spirit of God, you become basically a sorcerer who's calling down

16:53evil spirits.

16:54That turns into a mess.

16:57But what you said next is where I'm still at.

17:01I mentioned the different types of music that I listen to.

17:03The reason is I struggle to listen to Christian music after having been burned by this and just so bruised.

17:12After I left, I had to critically examine everything that I listened to.

17:17And I had everything from Latter Rain songs to Manifested Sons of God.

17:21Some of my favorite songs had such bad theology that it was actually causing people to die.

17:27That's how bad the theology was.

17:29And so, now, when I'm listening to music, I want to relax and enjoy it.

17:34I don't want to analyze it.

17:36So, I'll go listen to John Denver many times before I'll ever listen to something that's making me stop and

17:43analyze it.

17:43You know, I've come to learn in the last year is that our theology leads to our doxology.

17:49What we're learning in the Word of God, what we're learning from the pulpit, leads to our worship.

17:53Our doxology is our worship and our theory of our worship.

17:56And that was a huge mindset change for me to learn that, to be like, okay, it all needs to

18:04make sense, like, what we're learning.

18:06Because where we were, we had people that had been in that old church for 40-something years.

18:13And there was a lot of law of attraction stuff, like, don't think that over yourself.

18:18Don't talk that, don't speak those words over yourself.

18:20If you walk up in the morning, like, my job, sometimes I need to work a double shift, and I'd

18:25work all through the night, and I'd drag myself out of bed and go worship on Sunday morning.

18:30And I'd be like, oh, I'm dying.

18:32Don't speak that over yourself.

18:34But I am dying, you know.

18:38But it was that type of thing, and I never knew that that was the law of attraction.

18:42I never knew of any, of new thought or new age.

18:46I just thought that that was Christianity.

18:48And it's been a lot for us, the undertaking in the last year, to come out of that stuff.

18:54And even the way we speak to each other, and the way we read the word together, and the way

18:57we pray together, has changed drastically.

19:00Yeah.

19:01I mean, the order has been restored because, and ironically, at our new church, it's only been a year.

19:09And he's the worship leader at the new church.

19:14Yeah.

19:15And I am not.

19:16And that's fine, which is, I mean, I, like, again, I just want to sit in the congregation and learn

19:22and worship God.

19:23But I don't believe, I can't believe, like, are we actually doing this or doing this again?

19:29But it's so, it's different.

19:30And it was hard because, you know, I believed so much of, like, that there are churches that have the

19:38spirit and there are churches that are dead.

19:39And he would even, in this early time where I wasn't quite on board, he'd be watching some John MacArthur

19:47on the TV.

19:48And I'd be like, what are you watching that man for?

19:51He's a misogynist, I think.

19:52I mean, I think you shouldn't watch him.

19:54I don't think there's anything good about him.

19:56And for goodness sakes, I've learned so much through John MacArthur over this past year.

20:01I'm so grateful for his ministry.

20:03And Bodhi Bauckham.

20:04Bodhi Bauckham, Kosti Hinn was one of the first that really clicked with me because it made a lot of

20:11sense to me.

20:11You know, the spirit book helps you in.

20:14That was just a big cognitive dissonance.

20:19And before I got, as soon as I got saved, to go to your point about you listen to all

20:25sorts of music, I was already convicted of listening to all the music I listened to back in the day,

20:30all my R&B and the very eclectic style.

20:34I just liked a lot of different kinds of music.

20:36And I, so I didn't feel I can go back to that.

20:40So it's been quiet.

20:42It has been quiet.

20:43By the way, real quick.

20:45Sorry.

20:45You titled me wrong.

20:47I'm not the worship leader.

20:48I'm the music director, because when the pastor asked me if I would do it, I said I would, but

20:53I'm not a worship leader.

20:54You're the worship leader.

20:55You lead us in all our worship.

20:58I will direct the music.

21:00That's what I'm doing.

21:03If I could, just before you speak, I was thinking what you said about the difference between, you know, some

21:10people are very, I guess it's that spiritual warfare worldview versus the biblical worldview.

21:16And I was wondering, are you familiar with Bob DeWay?

21:19Yes, I am.

21:20Oh, I think he's wonderful.

21:23And his teaching helped me with that.

21:26And I thought, oh, that's what this was.

21:29You know, that was one of my first epiphanies that we were in a spiritual warfare worldview.

21:37And that's not biblical.

21:40I can't connect them.

21:42I do believe in the spiritual realm.

21:44I do believe that we shouldn't be involved in it.

21:46I would agree with Bob DeWay that we don't need to be involved in those things, unless, you know, except

21:53as it's stated in the Bible, you know, submit to God, resist the enemy, and he'll flee.

21:59Stand.

22:00Do everything to stand in Ephesians.

22:02You know, I'm good with that.

22:04But I don't want to get too involved in anything else.

22:07It's funny, too, because I don't know if either of you are songwriters.

22:10I'm a songwriter as well.

22:11Well, there's a connection that I don't think people realize.

22:15As a songwriter, in a world where you believe in – we didn't call it the word of faith in

22:23our group, but it was the same kind of thing.

22:24We had the same kind of thing.

22:26You had personal revelations, and your personal revelations took priority, especially if you were playing music for the group.

22:32Well, when you write songs, often you would put your personal revelation into the songs, because that made the songs

22:39more powerful.

22:41But me, as a 16-year-old, writing gospel songs with my personal revelations, not knowing theology – I was

22:49putting bad – more than bad theology.

22:52I was putting bad theology in the songs, but bad theology with a personal revelation twist.

22:57And I actually went back and looked through some of that old music that I had years ago, and, oh,

23:01my Lord, what was I thinking?

23:05But now, take that to the next level, you've got people in massive megachurches that are doing the same thing.

23:12They have no idea of theology, but they're bringing that into the music.

23:15And the problem with it is, you know, I can give somebody, you know, a break if they don't know

23:22their theology.

23:22That's fine, but when you're doing it in a repetitive fashion, like the music is doing now, you constantly repeat

23:28that.

23:28Well, people get the bad theology stuck in their head, so they'll go hum the bad theology at work, and

23:33it's bad.

23:35Exactly right.

23:36Just thinking about being at work, I was a music teacher, elementary school, K-4, and another part of, I

23:48think, erroneous teaching is that, you know, it's really just your presence that changes the atmosphere for the Lord, and

23:56you'll win souls, stuff like that.

23:59And I spent a lot of time, I'm not really a singer, I've spent, I'm not, not really, so even

24:05that, I'm not, I wasn't anointed to be a singer.

24:08And I felt like God really didn't love me enough, because I really wanted to be a singer.

24:13But, yeah, no, I'm the musician, stay in your lane, which is kind of what I was told, but I

24:20enjoy singing, and I would sit, and I, in retrospect, thinking about how the faculty room was right next to

24:27the music room, and I'm thinking by singing all of this music, it's going to change hearts, you know, it's

24:32going to, the whole atmosphere is going to change.

24:35And even though I'm laughing, it's sad that I wasn't in the faculty room hanging out, and being able to

24:42share the gospel at that time with people, or just being there for people, and building relationships with people, instead

24:49of isolating myself, and putting myself in this place where I'm thinking I'm doing some massive thing, and changing the

24:56spiritual atmosphere of the school building.

24:59You know, I'm, you know, I'm, yeah, that, that was, that was, that's kind of tough in a way, and,

25:04you know, just not having, I'm grateful for, for having the word of God humble me, and reveal truth, you

25:15know, it's so important, but, yeah, yeah, so we were learning something called the rest of the gospel by a

25:23man named Dan Stone, and that was like the latest teaching we were getting before we left.

25:28And it was, again, built on that trichotomy of, you know, spirit, soul, and body, and, you know, got to

25:37get that soul right, you know, so that you can, you can connect with that divine.

25:43And, and again, that had a lot to do with, you know, the, the wrong thinking of wherever you put

25:48your foot is holy ground.

25:49Like, I don't know if you've ever heard these things, but I feel, I don't know if I've misinterpreted them,

25:55but I think that's what they were teaching.

25:58I grew up on the teaching mind, body, and spirit, much like you're describing, and we had taken it to

26:03such weird levels, because in, in Branhamism, we believed that we could control objects.

26:10In fact, some of the earliest sermons with Branham, he was talking about how our faith could move objects in,

26:16in the air.

26:17And there's some weird research out there.

26:19There, there are people who claim that Branham was going around teaching people how to do this during the latter

26:23rain years.

26:24And I remember reading it for the, or hearing it for the first time on one of the recordings.

26:29He's talking to a crowd, and he's saying, now, if you have just enough faith, you can move this bracelet.

26:34And he's hanging a bracelet.

26:35Well, years later, I learned how the bracelet trick works.

26:38You just kind of wiggle your hand a little bit, and you can, you can make it look like the

26:41bracelet swinging, even though you're doing a trick.

26:43So, part of me wonders, is it trickery?

26:47Part of me wonders was, did he really believe this?

26:50And was he just not knowing that he was wiggling his fingers?

26:54But then I came across all of the research into spiritualism, and that took things to a new level.

27:00I have evidence that suggests he went to one of the largest spiritualist camps in, in the country, Camp Chesterfield

27:07in, in Indiana.

27:09And he talks, the reason I know this, he talks about a piano that, through the spirit, when the spirits

27:14would come down, it would play the, the jingle shave and a haircut two bits, which, if you know this,

27:21it's on the Beverly Hillbillies.

27:24And I'm thinking, well, what kind of spirit was that?

27:26Is it the Beverly Hillbillies spirit?

27:28But it was a stage trick, and it was a pretty famous one.

27:31It made it into an Indiana history book.

27:33That's how we found it.

27:35But through that, I learned that there was a deep element of spiritualism in the movement.

27:41And think of the hundreds of ministers who are on stage with him as he's saying things like, I can

27:46move bracelets and this kind of thing.

27:48People were attracted to the spiritualism.

27:51And now take that forward into the music.

27:54If the ministers are preaching the spiritualism, and you have songwriters who, like I did, would have the revelation come

28:02out into the songs, well, the revelation is going to be whatever the preacher was talking about, right?

28:07So now you've got spiritualism entering into the songs.

28:10Fast forward to today's world.

28:12The people who grew up with those songs wrote their songs with those same elements.

28:16And it just kind of evolved.

28:18That's why when you listen to a song from a group that developed from this movement, you see all these

28:24elements of spiritualism.

28:25Whereas if you listen to music that has never been touched by this, it's untainted.

28:31That's right.

28:31I mean, like when I started learning about, this is where I started watching you, you know, over a year

28:38and a half ago.

28:38When I started learning about where the charismatic movement started, where Pentecostalism started back in 1901 with Parham and William

28:48J. Seymour and the Azusa Street Revival and all of that.

28:51I was like, you're telling me I'm part of a system that's only been around for 120 something years?

28:58You know, and it's like, and the Bible's been around for thousands of years.

29:02There's a problem there, you know, and it kind of helped me to get my feet on the ground and

29:09to really sink my teeth in and look really hard into this and go, I think we're in the wrong

29:15spot, you know?

29:17And it was just, but the music that comes out of it, most contemporary Christian music today comes out of

29:24the movement, comes out of the charismatic movement.

29:26And it's like, we are now in a, in a reformed church.

29:30And like she said, I'm leading the music.

29:33It's like, I will not bring charismatic music into a reformed church, even though I do get people say, take

29:40song requests and it's coming from that.

29:42And I just nicely say, you know, not right now, you know, I'll look into it.

29:46But it's, it's like the heart of a movement that I, I grew up in it because my parents were

29:54part of this same church that we were part of.

29:57Um, I grew up there until I was 18 and then I, I walked away and my parents had left

30:05that church.

30:06So I didn't, I wasn't going to church for 30 years.

30:09And then, and then Jesus just miraculously met me.

30:14And, um, and I, I went to that church and met my wife and one thing led to another.

30:21But I mean, it's like, here we are now still trying to get our mind wrapped around all this music

30:28and to hear a song.

30:30And like, we're so hyper charismatic sensitive.

30:33Now I'll hear a song and I'm looking for, I'm looking for phrases.

30:36I'm looking for catchphrases in the song.

30:38I'm looking for a theme.

30:39And it's like, no, we can't, we can't do that.

30:42But it's, it came from a movement that's only been around a century.

30:46It's crazy.

30:48Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

30:56reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

31:01You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

31:08On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

31:17John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

31:23You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

31:29If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

31:35top.

31:36And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

31:42watching.

31:42On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

31:47You know, I grew up listening to songs that were talking about the Pentecostal call.

31:51And I was in a group that claimed that we weren't Pentecostal, which we kind of were, but I grew

31:56up with those songs.

31:57I grew up in a world where most of the themes were about a pre-tribulation rapture, which I also

32:04learned it only predates Pentecostalism by, I think it's like 200 years old, this theology, which is interesting because after

32:12Branham died, they kind of shifted away from the pre-trib rapture.

32:16And now there's different destructive theologies that they have, one of which is the idea that you can call down

32:24or summon heaven, summon Jesus.

32:27I've listened to Christian radio, and I've heard everything from the pre-tribulation rapture in songs to we need to

32:33call down heaven in some of the songs.

32:35It's such a wide variety.

32:37It's like you've got this open buffet of bad theology.

32:41Which song do you want to pick?

32:42Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.

32:45I mean, we were doing songs about calling down heaven, and the big thing that we've learned recently is all

32:52the songs that talk about calling down fire and bringing fire on you and fire, fire, fire, fire in the

32:57Bible is judgment, man.

32:59What are you, why are we calling fire down on everybody?

33:02It's not what they mean.

33:03It's not what they mean.

33:04It doesn't matter what you think it means.

33:06What does the Bible say?

33:08The Bible says fire is judgment.

33:10The one time with the tongues of fire on the day of Pentecost, that's the only time it mentions it.

33:17Every other time it's judgment.

33:19But the charismatics use fire like it's the Holy Spirit, and they put the Holy Spirit in a place where

33:26he's not supposed to be.

33:27The Holy Spirit's job is to point us to Christ.

33:31He's not looking to be on a pedestal, and in that movement, that's where he is.

33:36It's all Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit, and Jesus gets put on the back burner.

33:41The Creator God gets put on the back burner.

33:44You know, it's like, and it was just so confusing.

33:47I got to tell you, 13 years I sat there in a lot of teachings, unless it was like a

33:52teaching about to help me in my life, I'd be like, what are they talking about?

33:58Not because I knew any better.

34:00I just didn't get it.

34:01She got it.

34:02She'd explain it to me, and I was like, is that what that meant?

34:08I didn't know.

34:09Yeah, but when you talk about sorcery and things like that, you start to realize, you know, I've experienced the,

34:17from time to time, I mean, we did the altar call.

34:21We did the more, more, more, you know, back when I first got into the church.

34:25We didn't continue to do those things, but people fell out, and some people fell out.

34:31Most people really didn't fall out.

34:34But we had a man visit, and he was able to, and I really am starting to believe it's just

34:40hypnosis, and however they do it.

34:43I know that there is a spiritual realm, but I wonder how much of it is maybe hypnosis.

34:50I'm watching a lot of people online now, and they clap, and they do a lot of things, and emphasize

34:55certain words after everybody's experienced the music, and you've had the trance experience.

35:00And, but I felt the laughter, you know, I had it once.

35:06I didn't muster it.

35:07I was sitting by myself in the back of the church, and I felt it.

35:12I've sat in a little circle in a small prayer group and felt, like, the weeping come around the circle.

35:19I've had issues where I'm, like, I'm not going to be able to, you know, a friend invited me to

35:25play my clarinet at her wedding, and I had an argument with somebody before, and I was kind of an

35:31emotional wreck.

35:32And I'm, like, I'm never going to be able to do this, Lord.

35:34You have to help me, and I felt like you played through me.

35:37But I'm starting to think, I actually am not starting to, but believing that that's not, they are spirits, but

35:46not the Holy Spirit.

35:48As far as I can tell, which I don't think he moves that way.

35:52That brings up the subject, too, of the different tiers, the anointings.

35:58People are anointed to do certain things, and, you know, I always felt I wasn't anointed.

36:03I didn't speak in tongues.

36:05I didn't know how to speak in tongues.

36:07She knew how to speak in tongues.

36:08I didn't know how to speak in tongues.

36:09I wasn't anointed.

36:10But then, every once in a while, we would play a song that I would play really well, and I

36:16would be told I was anointed.

36:18Well, I didn't understand what that meant until recently, and it's like, okay, now I understand.

36:23Well, we're all anointed because we all have the Holy Spirit.

36:26We all have the same level of anointing.

36:29You're not any more anointed than me.

36:31But when we were there, there was all different levels of anointings, and sometimes, like, the anointing wasn't there.

36:39It never made sense to me at all.

36:41I'm of the opinion that everybody who leaves the Pentecostal or Charismatic Movement needs to, to some degree, study psychology.

36:49One of the best things that ever happened to me was I was on an airplane.

36:52I've mentioned this on the podcast.

36:54I just happened to be sitting next to a psychologist who was probably famous.

36:58Now, looking back, but I don't know who he was.

37:01But he recommended, after hearing parts of my story on the plane as I'm unloading to him, and he's saying,

37:09well, how does this make you feel?

37:12He recommended that I read the book Propaganda by Edward Bernays.

37:17Best thing that ever happened to me because I started to piece together, well, wait a minute.

37:22This movement and every movement that built upon it, they're using techniques that are really good at psychological effects on

37:30people.

37:31And the reason I think that's important is because whenever a group is doing something through music or through preaching

37:39or practice, whatever they're doing, the rituals they have in the church,

37:42and then when somebody escapes it, they will find some other ancient religion or new mystic religion that has a

37:50similarity, and they'll say, that's a demonic spirit.

37:53They're doing the same things as that demonic group.

37:57But it isn't really that so much as it is there is a psychology that over time people have –

38:04people in these ancient religions had come to understand.

38:07Part of it was this repetition.

38:09Whenever you get into chanting, that's repetition.

38:12It's a ritual that is causing you to repeat things, and there are different levels of hypnosis.

38:18So you can get into a subtle hypnosis.

38:21There are different stages of a trance, and you can get into an early stage of a trance just by

38:26repeating things in a ritualistic form.

38:29When you get to the level where you are starting to shut off your brain to focus on whatever is

38:35the ritual, that's whenever all the weird stuff happens.

38:38And it's not just the Pentecostal movement.

38:40You can find Hindus who are doing – it's not quite like the Pentecostal speaking in tongues, but it's the

38:45same effect that they have.

38:47So you see all of this happening.

38:49Well, now you take it – reel it back into our podcast.

38:52Many of those things occur through music because that is the ritual.

38:55That is the chanting.

38:56So when you're doing those same things, you're getting people into a state of suggestion, and they always do the

39:03state of suggestion right before the sermon.

39:05So think about the implications of this.

39:07And you've learned about a lot of psychological stuff, too, over the years, the theophostics and things like that.

39:12Oh, yeah.

39:13I'm telling you, we've done it all.

39:15We've done it all.

39:16We started out – I mean, again, you're explaining the, you know, the psychology behind why we wind up acting

39:26the way we do in these places.

39:28But we were also – the psychology was brought into this particular church with Changes that Heal by Dr. Henry

39:37Cloud and Townsend and Boundaries.

39:41You know, we've done it all.

39:42We've done Pete Scazzaro, Emotionally Healthy Spirituality.

39:47There was a time that we did theophostics where you would go back in time and Jesus would meet you

39:55there and heal that person.

39:57And you would speak and have all these conversations.

40:00And, you know, ultimately for me, none of this was working.

40:04You know, I always struggled a lot with depression and being very emotional, ironically.

40:13And eventually the pastor just kind of gave up and said, maybe you should see a psychiatrist and get on

40:18some medications.

40:20Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, but I am off them now.

40:24And I think a lot of my issue was probably sin, unrepentant sin, to be honest.

40:32Yeah.

40:34I think I would say I feel a lot better now.

40:38And it's been a year and it was a rough year.

40:41Rough, very emotional.

40:43I'm very fearful.

40:44I felt very fearful coming out of this thing.

40:46Very afraid.

40:48I mean, I know there's a lot of crazy things going on in our worlds right now, but it filled

40:53me with tons of fear, I guess, because I don't know, really, maybe not having the crutch of the tongues,

41:01that comfort, whatever that was.

41:03The power I thought I had, I don't know.

41:05So, and lack of music, I'm not listening to music.

41:08I mean, that was my go-to relationship with the Lord, you know, being in worship that way.

41:16So, it was trying.

41:19Yeah.

41:20Yeah, definitely a big shift around here without the piano going all day and me playing all day.

41:25And we still play because we lead the musical worship in our church, but it's a very different, it's a

41:33whole different meaning.

41:34I mean, right now, it's, we try and tie our worship songs, our music songs in with the lesson that's

41:42being taught.

41:43So, we have a call to worship now and I'll read something like, this is the reason why we're here.

41:48This is why we're here on Sunday to sing as a body of Christ, to sing to the Lord.

41:54And this is why.

41:56And you got to have a reason where we used to just get up there and pray for the Holy

42:00Spirit to fall on us and burn us all up in fire.

42:03And we started singing.

42:05And just real quick, I would say it was like an experiment, like being a guinea pig in ways.

42:11You know, let's see what, that didn't work.

42:12Let's do this.

42:13So, this didn't work.

42:14That leader fell, but we're not going to go back and talk about why that teaching might not have been

42:20so great.

42:21You know, there was, you know, a lot.

42:23We had the, sort of a shepherding movement idea, I think, where you had your, you know, the pastors were

42:30a couple and they were caring people, you know.

42:33But definitely you felt like you had to have that covering over you.

42:38And they were like spiritual parents, you know.

42:42So, anyway.

42:42Pete You mentioned the depressive state.

42:44And that's something that you and I share.

42:47I went deep into depression.

42:49And here's something that not many people think about with regards to music and ministry.

42:54When I was in depression, I had the most wonderful songwriting experiences.

43:00I was having songs come to me multiple times per day.

43:04So many were coming, I didn't have time to write them all down.

43:07The ones that I did wrote down, interestingly, I went back and looked through it.

43:10But, yeah, they're all bad theology.

43:12I'll never do anything with them.

43:14But the depression brings your mind into that state where what happens is you have this buildup of emotion that

43:21you can't express.

43:23You can't get out because everything's just bottled up in that depression.

43:26So it comes out through your music.

43:28Like, people who are an artist, their paintings, they will have wonderful paintings when they're in this state.

43:35And it comes not just with depression but other forms of mental illness such as psychosis.

43:40There are people who are psychotic who are writing crazy songs that have made millions of dollars in the music

43:45industry.

43:46So as a musician, this really plays out into the emotional connection you have to the music.

43:51And people will call this anointing if you're in this type of movement.

43:55That's right.

43:56Kind of funny if you think about it.

43:58But now take that to the next level.

44:00Not just musicians are susceptible to this.

44:03There are ministers who are experiencing the same things who will never admit – if you're in the charismatic, you

44:09never admit that you have this because this is a demon, my brother.

44:12You need to get rid of your demon.

44:14But ministries have this.

44:16People have people problems.

44:17So a minister may start bringing his emotional connection.

44:22And people may not realize – maybe it's not a level of mental illness that needs medication, but it's somewhat

44:29progressed.

44:30I'll just say it like that.

44:31So you see it coming out into the ministry.

44:34And then that ignites all the musicians because they're hearing these things.

44:37And, oh, that's a good spiritual revelation.

44:40Let's write a song about it.

44:41So it turns into this weird, vicious cycle that I can explain because I've been there and I've come out

44:48of it.

44:48I know how it works.

44:49Not everybody who has mental health struggles will recognize that.

44:54There was admission of possible depression on behalf of, you know, at least one of the pastors.

45:03So, I mean, I think that's why the psychology came into the church.

45:06I think it was a self-help mechanism.

45:11But, you know, again, you know, this is – you think about the order of things.

45:17And, you know, when John had mentioned that he was part of the church in the beginning, that church split

45:24because of a female pastor's prophetic word that she should be in leadership.

45:33And it sounded ugly.

45:35And I only heard the one side where it was a very – they were victimized and it was a

45:40lot of church hurt and a lot of pain because she had to take the stand and do that.

45:46So, I don't know if that – I mean, what do I know if that led to anything that she

45:50might have been struggling with?

45:51Because, again, you know, if you're dealing with rebellion against God and unrepentant sin, I don't think you're going to

45:58feel really good inside either.

46:00I don't know how that plays out psychologically.

46:03But I do think that that's a big correlation between the two.

46:08Yeah, I think it is all connected.

46:10There are – like I said, the church kind of feeds on each other.

46:13So, if the minister is having an issue or he's in the quote-unquote anointing, the rest of the church

46:19is going to get into a similar quote-unquote anointing.

46:22And it may actually be an anointing.

46:23I'm not saying that it's not, but I'm saying sometimes it isn't.

46:27And you have to be careful what it is that you're anointed with.

46:30I'll say it like that.

46:31But as a musician, you should be able to – to your point, John, you should be able to navigate

46:39through that regardless of what is the problem on the platform.

46:43Because if your music is grounded in the doctrine that comes from the Bible and not personal revelations and these

46:50emotional hypes, if it's just simply grounded in Scripture, then your music is okay.

46:55It really comes out okay.

46:57I remember reading – I was researching, and I wish I could remember this name.

47:01It might be Finney, one of the old revivalists.

47:05The outcry from the city after he left wasn't even about his revival mentality so much as it was.

47:11The music was just so elementary compared to our – what was the word?

47:18Our glorious worship.

47:19We have this worship that the music is intricate, and it's detailed, and it's fascinating music that's Christian music.

47:26And then you go hear this, and it's something like an elementary school child would sing or write.

47:32And I got to thinking about it.

47:34That really speaks a lot.

47:35When you look at the old hymns and you look at all the shape notes, there's some really complex music

47:40there.

47:40But what we developed in – at least what I grew up in – it wasn't complicated.

47:45And then what's interesting is I've listened to some of the Wimber music.

47:49It's kind of taken even a step further in that direction.

47:52It's more about the emotion than it is the complexity of the music.

47:56That's true.

47:57Absolutely.

47:57Very true.

47:58Yeah.

47:58I mean –

48:00We're very lyrical.

48:02You know, I mean, the lyrics are – and the songs that John has been choosing and the pastor's been

48:08choosing,

48:08it's been a lot of, you know, biblical-based, lots of verses, no real catchy choruses necessarily, you know.

48:20No big bridges to fill in, too.

48:22To get everybody going and start jumping on the strings and get drums going.

48:27No, we're not doing that.

48:30No, those days are over.

48:32Yeah.

48:32But it used to be exciting, and I used to love it, and I used to look forward – I

48:36still look forward to Sunday,

48:37but I used to look forward to Sunday in a different way.

48:40It was a very different thing.

48:42It really was.

48:43And I'm – I mean, since we left that other church, and it's kind of a weird thing,

48:50because nobody from that moral church who I was part of for 13 years myself and 26 years from my

48:56wife,

48:56I have had no contact.

48:58Nobody has reached out to me about anything, and it's like, okay, well, that kind of tells me,

49:04I guess we made the right move.

49:06But the Lord moved us.

49:08He moved us from there to – we left there, and we walked into our church where we are now,

49:15and we immediately knew we were in the right place.

49:18And it was so different.

49:21I mean, it was so different.

49:23It's a regular church building with pews, and that has nothing to do with it.

49:28It's just the preaching is just Bible, and he exposits through the Bible every single week.

49:35We pick up right where we left off last week, and he just keeps going.

49:38And it's just amazing to be like, is this what church is supposed to be?

49:44Because I'm actually learning the Bible.

49:47I'm not, you know, learning a verse here and a verse there.

49:51I'm learning through the Word of God.

49:53And it's incredible to be like, okay, this is what a Christian church is, and this is what the body

50:01is.

50:01And it's just been an amazing year for me of moving.

50:06And I never thought I would leave my old church before I did, before I started realizing, like I said,

50:13the music is what started my wheels turning.

50:17And then I started learning where the charismatic movement came from.

50:21And it was like, okay, we need to figure this out.

50:26And you didn't want to hear it at first.

50:28No.

50:29No.

50:32Well, you know, and then that leads just to another thing.

50:35We had a prophet.

50:36We didn't have prophets come and visit that often, but we did have a prophet come.

50:40And he had said something to me, like, oh, you know, something along the lines of, well, you're going to,

50:47you're going to have to, like, keep going with your Christian walk, even if you're, like, alone.

50:54And I'm thinking, oh, no, he's going to fall away.

50:57Or, like, you know, it's this whole, this...

51:00He told you I was going to walk away from the faith in 10 years.

51:04Not you, specifically.

51:04And it was actually 10 years to that scale, pretty much.

51:09I don't think that was accurate.

51:11I don't think he gave a date or anything like that.

51:14And I know he didn't mention you.

51:16It was just that that's what I thought.

51:19And then when he started pulling away, I thought, oh, no, this is what's happening.

51:25And I was, oh, I could go on.

51:28Now I'm realizing I do have a lot more to say, but I could probably keep going.

51:34But the prophetic thing, too, it's also self-seeking.

51:38It really is.

51:40It's going to a psychic for free.

51:42We embrace soaking prayer that came out of IHOP.

51:47We had heard some things.

51:49You know, again, nothing really stayed or lasted.

51:51We were going to do 24-7 prayer, but we never did.

51:54What, the building in it?

51:54But the soaking prayer thing, I realized, like, I don't think these were, I don't, why would God, I mean,

52:04yeah, he cares about me, but this is more like a reading or, I don't know.

52:11I don't know.

52:11Again, you know, you're sitting here like, hmm, what part of it was.

52:15But I'm really believing that it wasn't the God of the Bible.

52:20You talked about the people who, after you left, it was like they didn't even remember you, didn't think about

52:26you.

52:27One of the things that I've learned about this type of movement is that the connection, because of the emotional

52:34hype that they get you under, it's almost like a drug.

52:37You go and you hear the hype, you get the hype, but your focus is on the ministry.

52:42It's not really on God so much as it is the ministry.

52:45And so everybody's focused on the ministry.

52:47They're all coming to the drug dealer, which is feeding them the emotional high.

52:51The problem is your focus, because it's not on God and the people, when you leave, you don't really think

52:57about the ones who've left.

52:59You know, you're thinking more about where can I get that next emotional high.

53:02So I'm glad you guys were able to get out of this.

53:05What advice would you give people who are in this type of ministry?

53:08I would just say that, you know, it's important to look at the church structure.

53:13It's important to look at, you know, we came from a family-run situation.

53:21I think it's important to be in your word.

53:24Absolutely.

53:24And be taught correctly.

53:30That's all I have to say.

53:31That's number one.

53:32Number one is to be in your word.

53:34Be in your word and read it.

53:36Let the easy passages dictate what the hard passages are trying to say.

53:42Try and understand what the word is.

53:44Get some good commentaries, some solid teachers.

53:46If they're charismatic, stay away from them.

53:49Because you're going to get back into that path again.

53:52You've got to realize it's the worldview that you're trapped in.

53:57You're trapped in a spiritual worldview as opposed to a biblical worldview.

54:00You need to have a biblical worldview and your eyes will open up because you don't want

54:05to read the word through that spiritual worldview lenses because then everything is an attack

54:11from the enemy and everything is evil and everything is out to get you and you've got a sinus infection

54:17and it's demons.

54:18No, it's not.

54:19It's a sinus infection.

54:21I used to believe that it was a different expression of Christianity and I don't believe

54:26it's Christianity at all.

54:28Well, it's very good advice.

54:29Thank you so much for joining us.

54:31You're very welcome.

54:32Thanks.

54:32Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story,

54:36you can check us out on the web.

54:37You can find us at william-brannum.org.

54:39For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion

54:44from Christian Identity to the NAR.

54:46Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

55:29You can find us at william-brannum.org.

55:54You can find us at william-brannum.org.

Charismatic Worship, False Gospels, And The Music That Shapes Belief | Podcast Episode 614

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