Hero Epic: Why The Mike Bickle Debate Exposes A Deeper Movement Crisis | Pellegrino Walk | Ep 597 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John talks with Kevin and Barbara Sisti about Mike Bickle's attempted return and the deeper problems they see inside IHOPKC and the wider charismatic world. The discussion examines hero worship, personality-driven religion, revisionist history, prayer movement culture, and why fallen leaders are often restored to protect a larger story.  The conversation also explores how addiction, group identity, and extra-biblical authority can keep people trapped in unhealthy religious systems. Drawing from personal experience and historical analysis, John, Kevin, and Barbara argue that Christianity centers on Christ rather than celebrity leaders, prophetic myths, or institutional loyalty.  00:00 Introduction 01:20 Mike Bickle’s Return And The Larger Apostasy Problem 04:53 Hero Worship, “Touch Not The Anointed,” And Biblical Accountability 08:38 Five-Fold Ministry, Extra-Biblical Revelation, And Twisted Scripture 13:00 Prayer Movements, Global Missions, And Changing Prophetic Narratives 17:13 Revisionist History And The Epic Hero Story 20:03 Restoring The Storyline After A Leader Falls 25:11 Character, Accountability, And The Mega-Church Problem 28:26 Personality Cults And The Painful Process Of Leaving 36:09 Historical Patterns Of Religious Leader Worship 40:34 Prophetic Characters, Sanitized Stories, And Strange Fruit 46:15 IHOPKC As A Personality-Centered System 48:01 Cover-Up Culture, Prayer Networks, And Five-Fold Loyalty 52:21 Advice For People Who Feel Trapped 55:03 Closing ______________________ Kevin & Barb's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@pellegrinowalk ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guests, Kevin and Barbara Sisti,

00:46hosts of Pellegrino Walk.

00:48Kevin, Barbara, it's good to have you back and to talk about all of the weirdness in the

00:53charismatic and New Apostolic Reformation world today.

00:58Interestingly, I just had a conversation earlier today with Brantley, which will come out soon

01:03before or after this one, but probably some of the same subjects.

01:07It seems that some of the key players are making moves that I question whether it's a move

01:13of God.

01:14And I'm going to ask you the question, do you think that this that we see today is a move

01:19of God?

01:20Well, John, thanks for having us on again, and as for what we're seeing with Mike Bickle

01:27right now, we would definitely say that it's not a move of God.

01:32It's funny, though, because we were discussing this before we got on today, and we did our

01:37own video on our channel, you know, just a few hours after everything broke.

01:42And normally, we hear, you know, chatter about these things, because we've been in these

01:47moments, but no longer.

01:49We are definitely on the outside now.

01:52So, we saw the Jolie Roy's report, and as soon as I saw it, I ran to Barb, and like,

01:57we've got to say something, we've got to say something.

01:59So, we ranted for about an hour on Mike Bickle coming back into ministry, so to speak, and really

02:09have since come to the conclusion that it's really not about Mike Bickle, it's about such

02:16a greater problem out there than Mike Bickle himself.

02:23He has a lot of things started and moving, you know, with IHOPKC and the prayer movements

02:30and all that, but Mike Bickle coming back, I don't think, is the issue.

02:34The greater issue is this huge apostasy that we're seeing out there.

02:41I agree, and you know, there's, Brantley and I were talking about the hero worship that's

02:47in the movement, and if you take away the hero worship, there's no need for the hero

02:52to return.

02:53But the problem is, I think a good way to put it, is people are familiar with a hero story.

02:59You see it all over the comic books, the movies, etc.

03:02When a hero falls, everybody is rooting for the guy to get back up, and if you can bring

03:08that aspect into church, well, suddenly you have a hero that it doesn't really matter what

03:13happens.

03:14If they can rise back up, everybody's going to rejoice and say, oh, glory to God, our

03:18hero is back.

03:20But they never really stop to think, was that a good thing or was that a bad thing?

03:24Well, and I think that's part of the problem with the bigger picture of why a Mike Bickle

03:32would even be, that would even be an option for him to come back, is because of the indoctrination

03:39and the cult following behind him of people who have been raised in a mindset or taught

03:48a mindset that, you know, he is anointed, we don't touch our anointed, so when he wants

03:57to come back, it's a celebration.

04:00It's not, was he removed because he had egregious unbiblical behavior that he needs to remove

04:09himself, repent, turn back to the Lord, spend time finding his way back to Jesus of the Bible,

04:16and then, you know, go from there.

04:20I think that's the thing that's horrific to me, is there's, it is because, I think it's

04:27worse than hero worship.

04:28I think it's an indoctrination, and I think it's people not knowing their scripture and

04:33their Bible, and making some of these leaders, this mini-God, manifest-God-sonship thing, really

04:41comes to play in this, with how they treat some of the leaders, that they can do no wrong,

04:47they're untouchable, and the rules of society and law and the church just don't apply to

04:52them.

04:53Yeah, and you know, I pulled up a scripture verse, 2 Timothy 4, 3 and 4,

04:58For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their

05:02own desires, because they have itching ears, they'll heap up for themselves teachers, turn

05:07their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

05:12And I think that's it.

05:13I mean, we talked about this in the past, like, who's raising up who?

05:18Who is it?

05:19Is it Mike Bickle who is deceiving, or has he found a niche in what he has out there where

05:26he can actually be the leader of that particular group?

05:30And I think it's a little bit of both, but I think definitely we're raising him up, like

05:37you said, John, in hero worship.

05:39It's bigger than Mike Bickle, like you said, but it's more about the epic of the story.

05:43It's the epic of the hero and all of the legendary tales that go with it.

05:48If you take the hero out of the story, well, you still have the story.

05:51And the problem is the movement has created this idea that we must have some sort of a

06:00messianic figure who's going to rise up and lead the church, and especially with ties to

06:06Israel.

06:07I think that's one of the statements that's being made.

06:10He has to come back because there's this Israel tie.

06:13Well, that was the same thing with Branham.

06:15Branham had to come back because there's this Israel tie.

06:18Where do they get this idea?

06:20If you follow all of the theology back to the British Israelism, where we are the descendants

06:26of the lost 10 tribes of Israel, and combine that with passages like from Revelation, where

06:33Elijah and Moses are coming back, well, they see themselves as the – basically as these

06:40figures that the Bible is referring to.

06:43And whether you believe that or not, you still are in the mindset where there must be a figure

06:50to do this.

06:51And if you're conditioned to believe that Mike Bickle or William Branham or any of these

06:55other figures are the one, it really doesn't matter what they do, because for them to

07:01fulfill all of their prophetic history and their futuristic prophecies, they have to be

07:07the one, even if they do something horrific.

07:10Yeah, I thought the one was Jesus Christ.

07:12So I guess that's where I get really confused, because I feel like if this isn't the biggest

07:20red flag ever for people who are trying to figure out where the truth is and where it's

07:25not, I think we found it.

07:28And so that's, to me, I – you know, if we're not going to judge a tree by its fruit,

07:35because

07:35we are supposed to look at people's fruit – a good tree is good fruit, bad tree is bad

07:40fruit, that's biblical – if we're not going to look at the fruit, and we're going to listen

07:46to people's words instead of their actions, if we're not going to have biblical character

07:55as the standard, when the Holy Spirit talks about what the fruit of the Spirit is, that's

08:02the standard, that's the measure.

08:05And if you're filled with Christ, that's what you agree to, right?

08:09When we call ourselves Christian, we are saying that we are followers of Jesus Christ of the

08:14Bible, and the Bible is our plumb line.

08:17Like it or not, whatever's in it, I don't understand everything, and I don't understand

08:20why, but I'm not God, and I'm okay with that.

08:22But if I start cherry-picking, or ignoring, or repurposing Scripture into things that have

08:28nothing to do with the context that Jesus has spoken it, or God has written it, then

08:36what's the point?

08:37Why would you call yourself a Christian?

08:39You know, one of the things that really hit me whenever I started to detangle from all

08:43of this mess, and I – as I'm reading the Bible over and over, trying to wash all of

08:48this theology out of my head, the one thing that really stood out to me is that I'm

08:52going to say is that in the New Testament, it talks about the Holy Spirit that's coming

08:57to lead and guide into all truth, but the way the movement has established the leadership

09:03through the five-fold ministry, each one of these figures must be the mediator between

09:09God and man.

09:09That's why they have the phrase, touch not God's anointed.

09:12So if these people are the mediators, and one of them falls, what do you do with this?

09:19Basically, you've created this theology that it creates a box that you can't break

09:25out of.

09:25You are literally in the mindset that that person is connected to your spiritual well-being,

09:30and if they come out of the picture, what do you do?

09:35We have nobody to lead us.

09:36We have nobody to guide us.

09:38That's because that is the replacement for the Holy Spirit.

09:41Darrell Bock Yeah, so true.

09:42I think with all these latter rain theologies, right, that have crept in and gone directly

09:48into the NAR, it's just amazing, John, because what we find is like typologies.

09:55So what we're arguing about when we open the Bible and we say the Bible doesn't say there's

10:02going to be a billion-soul harvest, the Bible says something far different from that, talks

10:07about apostasy, talks about illusion in the end times.

10:11So you're arguing about typologies, and that's where they're coming from.

10:17Darrell Bock It's hard to argue against that, because they

10:21do have extra-biblical revelation.

10:24They do hold to that.

10:26So when you're arguing the Word, they say, well, God told me.

10:30And how are you going to argue with somebody that actually says, you know, God told me

10:34this.

10:34That's how I know I'm right.

10:36Darrell Bock Again, it's sometimes, it feels futile as we move forward and as we're doing

10:42videos, and we get the pushback, and the pushback is, well, you know, Mike Bickle was anointed.

10:49You just don't understand anointing.

10:52And, you know, things like this, or you're arguing, you're mad at these men, you hate these

10:59people, and it's like, no, no, we want to pull these people out.

11:04We want to snatch them from the fire.

11:06And I think we see, I don't know, it's just hard to argue against somebody that's

11:11that's all over the place and doesn't ground themselves on the Word.

11:16Beth Dombkowski But that's the thing, and that's the tell,

11:19is there are things that God would and wouldn't say according to His Word.

11:22And often, I think that was one of the things that I struggled with most in the IHOP C,

11:29excuse me, in the IHOP KC milieu and church setting, is the fact that the Scripture was so

11:40myth-applied and twisted or cherry-picked to a point where somebody, where I have studied

11:47the Scripture in context, that was what my church valued growing up.

11:50So, I, you know, to take a verse that does, that means, you know, three lines that sound

11:57really nice, but when you look at them in context, it's God, you know, punishing Israel,

12:02and it's been cherry-picked to be something else, it's very confusing.

12:07And I asked so many times, like, what?

12:11Wait a second, that's not what this verse means.

12:14Pete The perfect example of it, Barbara, is a verse that you had pulled up on your phone.

12:18Pete Right, right.

12:18Pete The Habakkuk.

12:19Beth Dombkowski Yeah, I was just looking at the, you know, one of the prayer movements,

12:23and people are talking about how the prayer movements are of God,

12:26and some of these things, I don't know where movements fall, I just know that we're supposed

12:32to go and preach the gospel, and talk about Jesus, and bring his word to people, and anyway,

12:40I'm not sure where that's happening now.

12:43I think it's so much more about platform and elevating people for legacy and for all sorts

12:50of purposes that really don't highlight Jesus, draw people closer to Jesus, make sure that

12:58our character is more like Christ.

13:00Pete Well, it's not about preaching the gospel anymore, it's about a concept, at least in

13:05global missions, of evangelization and reaching and transforming communities and things of this

13:13nature, which, when they talk about, hey, we need to obey or fulfill the Great Commission,

13:19what is the Great Commission to these folks?

13:22What are they actually trying to do?

13:24Are we going out and actually trying to preach the gospel, like Jesus told us to do, to individuals

13:30so that an individual can come to Jesus, be born again, and have new life?

13:36Pete Or are we trying to disciple nations, taking that all out of context, and the global

13:43missions movement has really exploded in that stream of, you know, going after nations instead

13:52of individuals, so what are we actually doing?

13:55We may be getting off topic, but it just seems like when we're talking about IHOPKC, and I'm

14:00looking at stats here, like Mike Bickle, 7,000 houses of prayer established in 200 nations,

14:08at least this is from IHOPKC, so it's their stats, largely because of the 24-7 prayer model.

14:18Pete It still goes back to the story.

14:20So, what you're talking about is what every person should ask.

14:25How is this biblical?

14:27How is what you're doing in any way uplifting the concepts, just the very precepts of the

14:34Bible?

14:35How are you doing this?

14:36Well, for me, it's because they're looking at a different narrative.

14:41They really don't care about that, and the reason I say that is this.

14:45I do not get deep into theology.

14:48I purposefully avoid it because as I'm trying to document the history and correct the histories

14:55that are incorrectly written, I avoid theology because it'll end you up into a debate that

15:00just hangs you up, and you sit there.

15:01You never move forward.

15:03Because, like you said, you can talk circles around doctrine with people, and they just keep

15:08going back to the same point of being outside of the Bible.

15:13I have God's anointed, God's anointed told me this, I listened to such leader, this leader

15:19told me this.

15:20That's the voice of God for my day, and you're talking about the Bible.

15:23That's not the voice of God for our day.

15:26They don't come out and say it that way, but that's really what it is.

15:29And what they're talking about is they have pieces to the epic that uplift the leader, and

15:37they try to make sure that that narrative stays intact.

15:40And the reason I say that is this, while I'm avoiding theology, I'm diving into history,

15:46and in the history, we're proving that many of the prophetic histories of not just Mike

15:53Bickle, but many of the other groups, the prophetic histories aren't correct.

15:57The prophecies change over time.

15:59The outcomes of the prophecies aren't correct.

16:02Sometimes the outcomes change over time, which is kind of interesting, and the people

16:08change with it.

16:09So as they're getting new information about how the narrative is supposed to be, they

16:15ignore the old narrative that was.

16:17I know several people who are old enough to see iterations of the narratives change, and

16:23they went through each iteration.

16:26When I first came in contact with the fact that there were people who knew that prophecies

16:32were changing, my first thought is, well, the person, they must not be an upright person.

16:37They're lying to me.

16:39But I've come to realize that it's not really a lie.

16:42It's that they have been so misdirected on where their focus should be, that the narrative,

16:48the epic, the tale of the hero, that is of such great importance, and the Bible has lesser

16:53importance.

16:54As long as they can uphold the narrative, that's why, when you look at some of the histories

16:59that I published, the people will actually fight to try to get me to withhold the histories

17:06as they should have been written.

17:08And instead, they want the histories as the new leadership has written them.

17:13Yeah, very interesting.

17:15You know, you talked about history, John, and I'm finding, and this is something that

17:20I found from the very beginning when we were coming out of IHOPKC, is that by studying

17:27history, we can actually better inform our theology as well.

17:32And that's one of the key things that I learned in the desert, is when I was digging into the

17:40historical analysis and going back further and further and further, I was starting to

17:45realize, wow, you know, this particular, whether it's history about prayer movements, history

17:53about America, whatever it may be, there's a revisionist history out there.

17:57And to try our best to understand what the actual history is, and we do that, I think,

18:05every day more and more, is a goal that helps us.

18:09Even when we're reading the Bible, when you read the Bible, you want to read it in its

18:13historical context as well.

18:15You want to study the Greek, you want to study the Hebrew, but you want to understand what

18:19was going on historically at the time, because it does inform your theology.

18:24It does.

18:25It does.

18:26And it's interesting when you're talking about this epic narrative with the hero, you

18:31know, this hero story and keeping the narrative pure, for lack of a better word, and, you know,

18:39allowing for the changes as it gets revised and moves forward.

18:43It reminds me of Mormonism, and it also reminds me of Catholicism with saints.

18:49It's just interesting how that seems to be something that the flesh does, is venerating

18:56certain people and turning things into epic stories.

19:00I think that was one of the pushbacks we always were having with people, because everybody

19:06wants this epic adventure, and they want to be the hero of their own story.

19:10And the fact of the matter is, this is Jesus' story.

19:13He is the hero of the story.

19:16You know, we've had that conversation with a former spiritual leader of mine, and, you

19:20know, he was talking about heroes of the faith.

19:22And I said, you know, there's no such thing as a hero of the faith.

19:25And he was so insulted, and I said, no, it's just that God, in his kindness and mercy, used

19:32a buffoon like me or someone like me, and in spite of the person, God was able to shine

19:39through and move, because that's who God is.

19:42And so, if we just let people be people and not be these big, put them up on these pedestals,

19:48you know, it's like we build up these pedestals and we prop them up there, and then we tear

19:52down the pedestals when something happens.

19:55It's just, it's not, people aren't made to be worshipped.

19:59It's not, that's not a thing.

20:01It's not God.

20:03It really seems to me that not only are they trying to uphold the history and the story,

20:09they're not trying to restore man.

20:10They're basically trying to restore the storyline that has been broken.

20:14Because if that storyline is broken, their religion has actually been broken.

20:20And if you look at it in those terms, think of how, think of how the movies portray the

20:27heroes.

20:27You have the hero, there's always a good fallen hero story.

20:31The hero falls, the villain is winning, that's usually the climax, and everybody wants to get

20:37into that climax because that gives you an emotional high.

20:40What has happened through the years in the charismatic movement, they have trained people to feed on

20:47that emotional high, whether it's through the music, whether it's through the sermons, the theology.

20:53If you can get people into that emotional high, it's addictive.

20:56And whenever they leave, they want to come back because it is an addiction.

21:00It may not be as addictive as, say, a narcotic, but you get that emotional high and you must have

21:06the next high.

21:07You must have the next hit.

21:07So, every epic story will have the case where the hero falls, but they also have the case

21:15where there's a strong villain.

21:16If you don't have the tension between the hero and the villain, then suddenly the story's

21:22boring and everybody walks out of the theater, right?

21:24Well, in this epic tale that they're spinning, the sad truth of it is the people who are trying

21:30to point the congregations back to the Bible, the people like you, they're seen as the villains

21:36of the epic story.

21:38And so, when the tale gets broken, they start to look at who broke the story.

21:44Who's the one who cracked our theology?

21:47Who's the one – we had this epic tale that we were building up to that climax, and they took

21:52away

21:52our climax.

21:53That's really what has happened here.

21:55We took away their emotional high because their leader fell is how they view it.

22:00And the sad truth is we didn't take away anything.

22:02We just saw it happen, and the leader fell, and the storyline broke.

22:07That's really what it comes down to.

22:09So, when the storyline breaks, because they're in that mindset, they have to look through the

22:14crowd and see, okay, who are the villains?

22:16The villains must have caused this.

22:20And my point is they really need to look at themselves and see, am I in this as a fictional

22:27story?

22:28And is this fictional story really Christianity?

22:31Because it doesn't really even resemble Christianity.

22:35Well, you know, as far as the storyline being broken itself, it's broken.

22:41It's completely broken.

22:43And as far as trying to raise Mike Bickle up from the ashes like the phoenix, I just don't

22:51see that it could ever, ever even be close to what it was before.

22:56And once again, we're talking about things that I think are outside of Christianity.

23:02This is outside, as far as we're concerned, because when you're talking about becoming

23:06deified and sonship and all this stuff, I don't even want to get into that.

23:10But the point being, you know, if you're trying to raise this man up that's fallen in so many

23:17people's eyes so that you can attach the storyline again, that's a far reach looking at Mike Bickle

23:26right now.

23:27And the sad part, John, you know, taking your example, the hero, the hero caused the problem.

23:37The hero is the one that made the storyline break.

23:41You know, if we're going with that idea, it's the hero's fault that the storyline dropped.

23:48And to hold the hero accountable, I think, is not an unreasonable thing.

23:57But I get why, you know, the villain would be.

23:59But, you know, I know the person that wrote the email.

24:04And I, I am, I'm so sad because I look at the people that wholeheartedly, earnestly, they've

24:13spent years of their lives committed to this man and his vision more so than Jesus and the

24:19Bible.

24:20And they've confused it.

24:23They've confused the two.

24:24And now they're promoting the wrong thing.

24:28And they're supposedly saying they're doing it in the name of Jesus.

24:32And, and the reality is the distraction is they're, they're distracting it away from praying

24:39for Israel and, and the blemish that's being caused because they're, they're trying to reinstate

24:45their supposed hero who has not repented and has not turned back to God.

24:54It's just, it's just, there's so many levels of just egregious, horrific, and very, very

25:03sad behaviors and choices that are just not biblical.

25:10And the storyline was broken back in the 90s.

25:15It was revealed in 2023, but it's been broken all the way through by Mike Bickle's sin.

25:23And, and so I think that's an important observation right there.

25:27I just, I don't think it's a, it's not a recent thing.

25:31This is, this has been the way the man has lived all his life.

25:35And many thoughts, many times I've heard, you know, as long as the front of his house

25:40looked good, the back of his house could be a lot nicer.

25:42He would always dress in humble clothes.

25:45But what did he really feel and how did he actually live behind the scenes?

25:49You talk about it often.

25:51We see men and women up on stages and we idolize them.

25:56And it's hero worship as you're talking about, John, but we don't know what they do at home.

26:02We don't know how they live their lives.

26:05It used to be like you said, right?

26:07With your pastor.

26:08Yeah.

26:08He would come to your house every day or not every day, but once a week, you knew his fruit.

26:13Well, that's what we were talking about is that the, the, there's so many problems with

26:17the mega church model and this, this big, but one of them is, you know, you don't even

26:22know who your pastors are.

26:24And, and so I, you know, my pastor, you know, we had a little tiny church and he came to

26:29our

26:30house every Friday night and we would see him at the grocery store or the bank.

26:34And, you know, you can see if his fruit and his words match because we were in the community

26:39with him apart from the church setting.

26:41And so when you're in a church of 40,000 people or on the mission base of IHOP KC, where

26:47there's over 5,000 people, uh, they don't know my circle.

26:52They, I mean, that's what I said.

26:54How many of them have been in his living room and seen how he treats his wife and how he

26:57is with his grandsons.

26:59I mean, this is how, you know, the character of your hero.

27:04And, uh, you know, I, I talked to friends that had been on staff for 10 years and they'd

27:08never even met Mike Bickle and they were, they were all about being his champion.

27:11And I was like, you guys have never even met him, let alone know him that that's scary.

27:17And that should be something that we have to, that's, that's an accountability on us.

27:23That's on us.

27:24We're definitely doing something wrong.

27:26Yeah.

27:27Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of

27:32modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe

27:37movements into the new apostolic reformation?

27:40You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

27:45william-branham.org.

27:48On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,

27:53Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper,

27:59audio, and digital versions of each book.

28:02You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

28:07movements.

28:08If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the

28:13contribute button at the top.

28:15And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're

28:20listening to or watching.

28:21On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

28:26There's a reason why groups that have a strong central figure are called a cult.

28:34I know that there are different levels of cult.

28:37Some are more destructive.

28:37Some are not.

28:38But anytime you have a movement that is centered around the focal point of a single person or

28:44group of people, you can't separate their theology from the personality.

28:50And when those two are combined, the theology and the personality, that becomes your faith.

28:55That becomes your religion.

28:57So I'll say it in an easier way for the listeners to understand this epic and just how wrong it

29:04is.

29:04In a Christian church, your theology is bound to the worship of Christ.

29:11Your – all of the personality, if you were to get personality from reading the scriptures

29:18from the Holy Spirit, that personality is the personality of Christ.

29:21That's who you're trying to become.

29:23That is your epic.

29:24That is your story.

29:25That is your – really, that is your everything if you're Christian.

29:29That's why the name Christianity, because it's about Christ.

29:33When you're in a group that it is a group surrounding a central figure and that personality

29:38is tied to the human, well, humans have flaws.

29:42And Mike Bickle has a flaw, yes, but any single group, I don't care who it is, if you have

29:48a

29:49group that your focal point is that person, you can't really say that it is a Christian

29:54group.

29:54It is a group that follows that person who may also follow Christ.

29:58If you understand what I'm saying, the problem is your focal point has one layer in between.

30:05Instead of going directly to the Holy Spirit for your leading and your guiding into all truth,

30:10as the Bible states, you must go to the person.

30:13When he's taken out of the equation or she's taken out, you have to restore it or you have

30:18no religion at all.

30:20And one of the most difficult things to do – I had to do it myself – when you're in

30:25a group that is like this, you have to come to terms with the fact that, A, I was wrong,

30:32B, I have to humble my pride and admit I was wrong, and C, I have to figure out all

30:38of the

30:38ways in which I was wrong.

30:41And I will say the latter two, that was very, very difficult.

30:44For me to admit that I was wrong, it took a lot of pain and suffering.

30:49I could not sleep.

30:50I could not eat.

30:51It was weeks.

30:52The most difficult thing I ever had to do was to come to terms with the fact that for 37

30:58years of my life, I was living into this fictional epic, this fictional tale.

31:04So I had to admit it, but then I had to go to the active work of figuring out, okay,

31:10in

31:10which ways did this person lead me the wrong way?

31:14I have now come to terms with the fact that that will take me the rest of my life.

31:18I had 37 years of the wrong programming.

31:21It may take 37 years of the right programming to get me back.

31:25The point I'm trying to build up to is this.

31:28Every person who's in that has to come to an active decision.

31:32Am I going to stay in the fictional epic, or am I going to reevaluate every single aspect

31:38of my life?

31:39And the sad truth of it is most people take the easier path.

31:43And it's really, really interesting because I have a past in addiction.

31:48So it is classic, classic addiction.

31:52It is they are dangling a carrot out for you, and you keep chasing the carrot and chasing it

31:59and chasing it.

32:00And it slips out of your hands every time.

32:05But there's a day that comes, and what reminded me of this is what you just said, John.

32:09There's a day that comes when you have to face that reality.

32:13This is one of the things that we try to say in some of our videos is that a person

32:18has

32:18to kind of gather themselves and pull their chin up, so to speak, and step back for a second and

32:26assess

32:26and just pull out of it because it is absolutely – it's like a decision that you have to make

32:34when you're coming out of active addiction, which is a very, very difficult decision for anybody to make

32:40because they're not seeing clearly, but they have to remove themselves from it.

32:45They have to detox, and then they have to assess from there.

32:49And that's basically when we're talking about what we're talking about today,

32:55absolute delusion, almost like a stupor in the church where people are walking around,

33:00following men, following movements, following leaders, instead of going for Jesus,

33:07who is going to free them from all of this.

33:11And classic addiction.

33:13Why?

33:14Because I've been in it.

33:15I've gone through it.

33:15I know it.

33:16But then I end up at IHOPKC and right back in in a different way.

33:22So once again, pulling out of that, reassessing.

33:26But again, when you talk about addiction, I think that's the thing, one of the things that is missing

33:32from the conversation in America, the United States in a whole, increasingly,

33:41but specifically in the church, is we have forgotten how to critically think.

33:46And I think we're not teaching that.

33:48We're not – you know, I remember my dad was very – you know, we had to think critically.

33:54And we – even my pastor, I remember in catechism, I was a Lutheran, and he said,

33:59here's the deal, you're going to have to stand on your own and decide if the God of the Bible

34:03is really who he says he is, because someday your parents aren't going to be there.

34:07And right now, your religion is based on what they tell you, and you need to find out for yourself

34:13if what they're saying is true.

34:15And I thought, as a 12- and 13-year-old, I was like, wow, that's so – I'm in

34:19power.

34:19Like, that's so amazing.

34:21But it was – it's true.

34:24I mean, but that's the thing.

34:25And then when you talk about addiction, one of the things you had to do is you have to remove

34:30yourself from the environment, from whatever you're addicted to, but also the people that

34:36you moved in addiction with.

34:38And I think that's the hard part.

34:40I mean, that was what was hard for us in the desert.

34:42And I'm sure, John, I mean, you lose all of your community, all the people that you – I

34:49mean, that's why it was so hard.

34:51We were ranting yesterday, not because we're surprised at Mike Bickle.

34:54Of course, he's making a comeback.

34:56That's – what's he going to do?

34:57He's still – you know, he's on the earth.

34:59He's not going to just sit down so quiet.

35:01That's not Mike Bickle.

35:03But we were so sad and upset because we're just watching people that we love, you know,

35:14who we miss.

35:15We miss them.

35:16We love these people.

35:17We ran with these people.

35:18And it's like, oh, my goodness, they're still deceived.

35:23But, of course, they're still in relationship with each other.

35:26They're still sitting under that teaching.

35:30How else, you know, you had to remove – you know, John, you've told your story eloquently

35:35so many times.

35:36It was no small thing for you and your family to step out and not just get ostracized, but

35:43you had to set boundaries, too.

35:46Well, one other thing about addiction and probably the first step is you have to realize and come

35:53to terms with the fact that you have a problem in the first place.

35:56And that's one of the first steps.

35:59And so when you're in this delusion, when you're in the movements out there, that is

36:05a hard thing to do.

36:06And I'm sure it was hard for you to do.

36:09Absolutely.

36:10I remember when I first began my research, I was digging into the trail of Pentecostalism

36:16because we were falsely taught all of Pentecostal history in Branhamism.

36:21It's kind of weird.

36:22It was like we were trained that he invented the whole – the correct version of the thing,

36:27I should say.

36:28And then I started to realize that all through history, you go back through all of the leaders

36:32in the history, and they're all maybe not as destructive as Branham, but some of

36:38them were pretty bad, all the way leading to Dowie, who was the kingpin of the whole thing.

36:43Well, along with John Alexander Dowie, you had Frank Sanford.

36:47And when I started looking at him and what he did, it was awful.

36:52You can find that research on the website or on Wikipedia.

36:57In that research, I came across this one newspaper article, and I do now have it on my website.

37:03This one guy was saying that basically he didn't use the word addiction, but you could

37:09tell that's what he was saying.

37:11He was using that combined with this hero narrative.

37:14And he says, essentially, and I'm paraphrasing, what are you guys thinking every single time

37:19the next guy rises up that said he's Moses, or he's David, or he's Elijah, and he goes

37:25through these names, and they're all biblical characters, and he says, why do you believe

37:30them?

37:30Because each time it ends in catastrophe.

37:34And I'm greatly paraphrasing what he said in this newspaper article.

37:37But I started thinking about it, and that's the truth.

37:41You get addicted to the story, and your focus is the Bible, yes, but your focus isn't the

37:48Bible in the way that it is written.

37:50It's more the extreme events in the Bible that sound fantastic.

37:56If we can recreate those today, well, let's put a face to it.

38:00Who's the face to the fantastic story?

38:03This epic that I'm building in my fictional mind.

38:06Well, what was happening back then, people would actually sever themselves entirely to

38:11join in communes.

38:13People were joining with, like the Frank Sanford cult, they joined into the commune, and then

38:19they went around the ocean in two boats, which is a crazy, interesting story.

38:23But they left everything behind, which meant, from my perspective, I'm looking at it, I just

38:29lost most of my family and friends, think of the people that didn't go with them on the

38:34boat.

38:35Every single one of them is pleading with you, come on, don't do this.

38:39Can't you tell that this guy is claiming to be Elijah, or David, or whoever he is, can't

38:45you tell that he's trying to use you?

38:47This isn't true.

38:48This is fiction.

38:49But they tried to maintain the storyline, because they'd already bought in.

38:53We believe this.

38:54We believe this is our leader.

38:55He's going to carry us into the afterlife, and I don't care if they've just proven that

39:00he's done some horrific things, in so much that he's actually fleeing the country.

39:05We're going to go with him, because that is our narrative.

39:08That is our story.

39:09It sounds a little bit like Jonestown, as well.

39:12A lot like.

39:14But we see this sort of thing, like with some of the platform ministries.

39:19We've talked about Lou Engel in the past, but they stand up there, and they hold out

39:25that carrot.

39:26And the funny thing is, he's doing nothing different now than what he did 40 years ago.

39:34If you go and look back at some of his stuff, he's saying the same things.

39:38It's revivals coming, get on board, pray more, fast more, Franklin Hall, the whole thing.

39:46And he's been saying that all along.

39:48He just changes generations as he moves along.

39:52But it's the same old stuff.

39:55And it is addiction.

39:57But, well, and it is exactly what you're talking about, Jon.

40:00It's, they're forerunners, and you're going to be the tip of the arrow.

40:04And the whole narrative is, people aren't going to understand you, and they're going to come

40:08against you, because Satan is going.

40:10The more people come against you, the more proof that you're doing God's work, because

40:15look at what Satan's doing to try and derail it.

40:19And, you know, in a biblical context, that's an accurate thing that can happen.

40:24But the way they're applying it, it's like, well, Satan really doesn't go after anybody

40:30that's heretical and blasphemous.

40:31Like, he doesn't have to, because you're already doing his work.

40:34And so, that's the thing, is, I mean, when I look at Bob Jones and Paul Kane and their

40:42stories, and I go, wait, how is this guy, the one that handpicked Mike Bickle, why are

40:54people okay with that?

40:55This guy, you know, and it was always, you know, Mike Bickle himself would, like, they

41:00would mock him from the stage about how funny he was, and how Mike thought he was ridiculous.

41:05But then, he was always so accurate, except for he wasn't very accurate.

41:09And that's the thing, like, every time he said something would happen, and they would do these

41:14things, and you'd go back, and it's like, well, that's not actually, there wasn't actually

41:18a drought, or there wasn't actually a comet, or it wasn't the way they, you know, sanitized

41:26it, and spun it for their epic story, like you say, or their narrative.

41:32And it's just, it makes me angry and heartbroken at the same time.

41:37I don't even know what that feeling is, but it's not a good one, tell you what.

41:41It attracts some strange characters.

41:43We had, maybe not as strange as him, but we had some pretty weird ones in the Branham

41:48movement, here's the thing, when you're in this kind of epic tale, and the story has

41:56critical flaws, inwardly, and I can say this from my own experience, inwardly, you know

42:02that something's not quite right, whether it's intuition, or whatever you want to call

42:06it, you can feel something just, this stinks, this doesn't feel right.

42:12The problem is, it attracts the weird people like this, because they can sense the same

42:20thing that you're sensing, but in a different way.

42:24Whatever they say, however weird it is, if the story falls, the whole thing can collapse.

42:33So they have more respect than they would normally have in any circle, as long as they can uplift

42:40the story, tale, the tale that's being spun by the leader.

42:44So you find all these weird people that spin their tales, and they try to build and contribute

42:49to the story.

42:50So what you get are essentially contributors who, some of them may not even have all their

42:55mental faculties, but they're suddenly integrated into the worship of the leader, so they get

43:02higher respect than they would had they not done this.

43:06And there are videos online, I've put a few of them in some of the videos that I've

43:11done, but one of the crazier people was literally saying that Branham was God on the flesh and

43:16had more power than Jesus Christ.

43:18And this was a person that we respected, and he actually had stake in the business operations.

43:25Because if you can get the people to believe that you're part of this narrative, the people

43:30will believe anything that you say, they'll run with you to the ends of the earth and back.

43:36Because it's like this, if the hero is false, what else collapses?

43:41That's really, that's what's inside of you, that's in the back of your mind at all times.

43:45If that's not true, what else is not true?

43:48And the sad part is, when you leave, that is this sudden daisy chain of pain, because,

43:53well, if that's not true, this next thing can't be true.

43:56And that trail goes all the way back to the Bible, because you're going to find where

44:01they deviated with the extra biblical stuff, that's where it all spun out of control.

44:06Well, that's what hurt so bad when we came out of IHOP.

44:09It was like, it was like one thing after another that, you know, if they're reading the word

44:15and spending time with the Lord, he'd put his finger on like, nope, nope, nope.

44:20And every time, I remember coming in and talking to you, and I was like, there goes another

44:26one, there goes that history, that part of my life, now I've got to deal with that, and

44:31I've got to, and every time that happens, I don't know, you talk about Tetris, right?

44:34Everything just falls and eventually gets into place, but it's like a big snow globe for a

44:40while, and you're just like lost in it.

44:42And you go along, you're like, yeah, I finally got a hold of myself, and I'm starting to understand

44:47Bible more in context, and everything's good, and then it explodes again on another one.

44:54And yeah, so that's difficult, it's hard to go through, but man, it's so important to do that

45:00and allow that to happen, right? Because if you don't, you're never going to get to the root,

45:05you're never going to get through these false historical narratives, whatever they may be,

45:10and never see the real scripture and the real Jesus at the end.

45:15Yeah. Well, and it's interesting when you talk about people that have,

45:18the people it attracts, what I noticed was the population you were describing,

45:26that maybe not everything's there, and there are people that maybe have a harder time finding

45:30community in that respect, but the other end of community that I saw is the super high achiever

45:38people that are kind of insecure, but they're like, I can fast longer. It reminded me when I

45:45used to do distance running. I'm like, these are people that I would see in the distance running

45:50world that like, if 10 miles was good, 50 miles was better. And so, I would watch these, and it

45:57was,

45:58that was what was hard, watching those two groups of people coexist and intermingle was very,

46:04very disconcerting sometimes, because it's a very strange,

46:10there's strange fruit in that, I would say, I guess, for lack of a better phrase.

46:15I think Star Trek Borg, I don't know if you're Star Trek fans, but the Borg is this entity, it's

46:20this

46:20enemy in Star Wars that, it's a robot and it assimilates the people, but what it does essentially

46:26is it brings their mind into a hive mind, and the more people it brings in, the more collection,

46:32the more personality it gets. And so, it's this ever-growing, evolving, weird, evil thing.

46:38I've talked to Dr. Stephen Hassan, who helped create that concept, and he created it after a

46:44destructive cult, which is why it is so similar. But what is happening is essentially this,

46:50you're in a group that is a personality cult, and the moment you attract one personality,

46:56you're going to find another person, well, that attracted them, maybe I can do better. And then

47:01they bring their personality in, and then it gets more aggressive and more aggressive.

47:04That is why it spins out of control. And it really comes down to this, you're in a personality

47:10cult. I mean, there's no two ways about it. It is the person, if you're an IHOP KC, it's

47:15the personality of Mike Bickle. Yes, there are other people who it attracted, but that's

47:20really the personality cult. And the problem is, in a personality cult, the leader is non-replaceable.

47:28If you remove that leader, now you no longer have the personality. In a Christian church,

47:34you can have a new pastor come. You can even fire a pastor, because that's not the personality

47:39of the cult or the church. Their personality, they're trying to model the personality after

47:44Christ. So when you compare the two, which would you rather have, the personality of a human

47:51person, or the biblical personality of Christ. Yeah, exactly. And you know, talking about

47:57Mike Bickle and IHOP KC, I pulled up their website, but I've looked at it in the past, and

48:05as far as the prophetic history, they've written Mike Bickle right out of the script. He's like

48:13missing, you know, and things have changed. Now it's small groups. It's groups of people that

48:18actually formed and all that. So, you know, if you bring Mike Bickle back, of course,

48:23they're going to have to change this whole website again. But I think the point is, it's kind of

48:28interesting, because what do you do? So much of this is just like cover-up culture too, right? Because

48:35we don't want the organization to fail because this word gets out about something that somebody did,

48:43and it's all the same stuff that we're dealing with. So I think, in looking at Mike Bickle,

48:51to us, you know, we were offended. A lot of things came back to us in our thoughts of, you

48:59know,

48:59some of the pain that we went through just dealing with all this when we heard he was trying to

49:03come

49:03back into ministry, or people were trying to bring him back into ministry. But yet, you know, again,

49:10the damage to us, to me, and I'll speak for myself, the damage has been done. There's all

49:17these movements all over the world that Mike Bickle and IHAPKC has helped create, which has

49:24brought these theologies, and I think they're aberrant theologies of David's tabernacle, and so

49:30their prayer and guided prayer, and the idea of fasting, and all the things that they, not that

49:37fasting is wrong, but holding people accountable to that, to attain to that, to obtain perfection,

49:45all these things, that's gone out into the world. It's not just in 7,000 prayer rooms across the world.

49:53It is threaded, and it's now diffused into global missions. It's in, like you said, the IPC,

50:04International Prayer Connect, where they're connecting prayer movements all over the world,

50:09and if you look it up, they're trying to guide people into what to pray for. It's not just,

50:15hey, pray, like Jesus says, go into your room and pray. It's, no, we want to guide you into what

50:21what to pray for. This is a problem, and it's all set in motion, or was set in motion,

50:28basically by Mike Bickle saying yes to Bob Jones and the rest.

50:36Well, and, you know, to be fair, Mike Bickle is not the only person globally that's doing prayer stuff,

50:42nor has he been. He wasn't the first, but I do think that there's a significant thing,

50:48and it's more about the network he's part of with Bill Johnson and Todd White and Rick Joyner and all

50:54of these guys, Lou Engel. They, you know, they kind of agree to not speak and air each other's

51:02dirty laundry. It's kind of like, you know, we'll just keep everything quiet because you're an apostle,

51:08I'm an apostle. We'll just, you know, we'll play nice, and so it makes them look very humble

51:13and very, like, you know, and I remember when people were coming against Mike Bickle, I was so

51:21impressed about how he said, well, you know, we don't talk about that. We don't speak to that.

51:26We just bless him, and we, and I thought, wow, that's really, wow, except for that's not what he was

51:33doing, and, you know, and when you finally read why the guy was going after Mike Bickle, I'm like,

51:39wow, Bernie Gruen, I wish he was right. He was right. He did it the right way, but we were

51:46made

51:46to feel that, like, pious Mike Bickle was, of course, in the right, and, wow, he wasn't even

51:53going to entertain it, and with all his clout and publicity, he so could have destroyed this guy,

51:58but look at how Christ-like he is. It's at the low road. Yeah, and that's, oh, we go low.

52:04We go

52:05low, and I'm like, going low? I don't know what that is, but it sounds gross. What happens in the

52:09five-fold ministry stays in the five-fold ministry. It's really true. It's like the what happens in

52:15Vegas thing. You know, there's so many problems with it, and the fact of the matter is there are

52:20people who are trapped, and they're hurting, and inwardly, they don't even know they're hurting.

52:25That's really, for me, that's the saddest thing. What advice would you give to the people that are

52:30trapped in this? I think the first step is, maybe even before they're recognizing that you have a

52:37problem, it might be what you said, John, that check inside. At some point along the way, you know

52:45inside that what they're saying, or something about what they're saying, or the culture, not just

52:52theology, consider culture. What are you made to feel like? And there's a lot of things that can

52:59be off, so I would start with that. If you feel a check inside, then it's time to say, wait

53:07a minute,

53:08maybe there's a problem here, and it's at that point, take a step back. Take just, even if it's

53:15temporary, take a step back. Well, and if you're in an environment where you cannot ask questions,

53:23even questions, not to call people out, but just, I don't understand this, I don't understand why we're

53:28teaching this, I don't understand. Like, if you can't have honest dialogue when you are genuinely

53:33confused about something, and when the response is, you know, we don't question the anointed,

53:41we don't, if they're not the ones who are serving the most, and laying their lives down, like, that's

53:49what Jesus calls us to do. And so, I would say my advice would be, first, you've got to separate.

53:58You've got to step out of it, because I think, you know, when you're in the rain cloud, you're

54:04going to get wet. You're going to have to step outside of it, and just wait, and just sit,

54:09and kind of wait and see, like, okay, now that I'm away from all of the noise, now what? And,

54:17you know, it is hard to read the Bible with a different lens. It is hard. You know, you have

54:23to

54:25undo all the damage, but, you know, that's who God is, and that's what He's like. And we all have

54:31stuff, John, that we're going to be walking out for the rest of our lives, whether we're in a cult

54:36or

54:36not. There's just stuff from the world that's gotten on us that is informing how we see Jesus

54:42that's not who Jesus is. And that's always true. And so, but I think people know, and if the Holy

54:49Spirit is tapping on something, then, you know, this is a life and death matter. Heaven and hell are

54:56real places. And I would never want to stumble one of God's sheep, knowingly or unknowingly.

55:02Well, it's very good advice. Thank you so much for doing this.

55:05Thank you for having us.

55:07Thanks, John.

55:07Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story,

55:11you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org. And on YouTube,

55:15you can search for Pellegrino Walk. For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation,

55:20you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon,

55:25Kindle, and Audible.

56:03Bye-bye.

Hero Epic: Why The Mike Bickle Debate Exposes A Deeper Movement Crisis | Pellegrino Walk | Ep 597

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