- 2 days ago
John and Pia examine the New Apostolic Reformation as a system rather than merely a list of personalities. Drawing from Pia's decades inside NAR churches and John's research into William Branham, Gordon Lindsay, the Voice of Healing, Latter Rain revivalism, and the business mechanics of revival culture, the discussion explores how spiritual authority, restoration language, stage charisma, and institutional momentum keep the movement running.
The conversation connects modern apostolic networks to older revival patterns, including traveling healing campaigns, prosperity theology, billion-soul harvest rhetoric, volunteer burnout, spiritual abuse, and the pressure to protect the machine when scandals threaten its credibility. Pia also reflects on leaving high-control religious culture, finding rest outside the NAR system, and returning to a simpler Christian faith centered on Jesus, Scripture, healing, and truth.
00:00 Introduction
02:18 Pia’s 40 Years Inside The NAR World
06:02 Scandals, Restoration, And Why Pia Calls It A Cult
12:04 The System That Created The Puppeteers
14:47 Healing Revivals, Stage Acts, And Traveling Circus Religion
18:05 The NAR Machine, Attention, And Spiritual Currency
23:44 Love Bombing, Volunteer Exhaustion, And Control
27:09 The Golden Calf Problem: Giving Attention To A False God
29:43 Why John Pities People Trapped At Every Level Of The Machine
33:06 Prosperity Theology And The Wealth Engine
39:01 Why Exposing One Famous Leader At A Time Is Not Enough
42:10 Abuse, Dangerous Theology, And The Need To Expose The System
45:03 Deconstruction From The Circus Act, Not From God
47:22 Turning Followers Into The Machine’s Marketing System
50:51 Pia’s Clarity, Rest, And Life Outside The NAR Cave
54:02 Returning To Jesus Instead Of The Machine
______________________
Pia Hugo Ministries: https://piahugoministries.com
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The conversation connects modern apostolic networks to older revival patterns, including traveling healing campaigns, prosperity theology, billion-soul harvest rhetoric, volunteer burnout, spiritual abuse, and the pressure to protect the machine when scandals threaten its credibility. Pia also reflects on leaving high-control religious culture, finding rest outside the NAR system, and returning to a simpler Christian faith centered on Jesus, Scripture, healing, and truth.
00:00 Introduction
02:18 Pia’s 40 Years Inside The NAR World
06:02 Scandals, Restoration, And Why Pia Calls It A Cult
12:04 The System That Created The Puppeteers
14:47 Healing Revivals, Stage Acts, And Traveling Circus Religion
18:05 The NAR Machine, Attention, And Spiritual Currency
23:44 Love Bombing, Volunteer Exhaustion, And Control
27:09 The Golden Calf Problem: Giving Attention To A False God
29:43 Why John Pities People Trapped At Every Level Of The Machine
33:06 Prosperity Theology And The Wealth Engine
39:01 Why Exposing One Famous Leader At A Time Is Not Enough
42:10 Abuse, Dangerous Theology, And The Need To Expose The System
45:03 Deconstruction From The Circus Act, Not From God
47:22 Turning Followers Into The Machine’s Marketing System
50:51 Pia’s Clarity, Rest, And Life Outside The NAR Cave
54:02 Returning To Jesus Instead Of The Machine
______________________
Pia Hugo Ministries: https://piahugoministries.com
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Pia Hugo, former sister-in-law of Cheyenne, a super
00:48apostle of NAR, and a missionary to the Philippines.
00:52That's a mouthful, but I think it's important for what we're going to be talking about.
00:56And I've not even updated you yet.
00:59I wanted to kind of surprise you with it.
01:02But I've been digging in multiple directions, which you may or may not have seen.
01:06I've been looking into Cindy Jacobs and some of the culture that was birthing people like Cindy Jacobs.
01:15And lo and behold, I found out some information that tied it directly back to my research.
01:20So this story gets bigger and bigger, but as I mentioned in the introduction, you're the former sister-in-law
01:28of Cheyenne, who is one of the biggest super apostles in NAR.
01:33And I want to – I really think this is important that people hear and understand, because I want to
01:40not so much point fingers at Cheyenne or any of the people who are in it, but instead talk about
01:46the history of how they got there.
01:48And I really want to focus on the system that created them.
01:52Because for me, that is the most important thing.
01:55Very good people can get caught up into the system and turn into problematic creators of problems.
02:04I'll just say it like that.
02:05Not that I'm saying Cheyenne is that, but I'm saying that there are really some good people that I know
02:11who got caught up in this movement, and it changes them once they get caught up in it.
02:15Thank you so much for having me, John.
02:20I really count it as a privilege to be here because the NAR movement, which I have been a part
02:30of – this is my second interview with you, just for the sake of your audience.
02:34They may not know, but they can look at the previous interview if they want to know more about my
02:41story.
02:41But, yeah, as I mentioned in that first interview, I have been part of the NAR system for 40 years.
02:51And I pretty much know the who's who in the NAR zoo, if we want to put it that way.
02:58And you're right, Cheyenne, my former brother-in-law, is one of the most, I don't know, known leader and
03:12definitely powerful within the NAR circles.
03:15But the fact, you know, John, that he's actually not famous outside of the NAR circle, that boggles my mind
03:27because everybody who's been to NAR churches knows him.
03:34But I think he's so diabolical that, you know, he's kind of like that mastermind that's lurking behind the scenes,
03:47you know, propping up all his little puppets like Sean Balls, like his friends with Jeremiah Johnson, Sean Foyt.
03:58You know, I'm deliberately using all these men because they're famous and they are also famously being exposed because a
04:11lot of young people, especially, you know, the Gen Z and the Alpha Generations, they have been following these puppets.
04:22And I call them puppets on purpose because puppets do the bidding of somebody higher, right?
04:31The puppeteer, the grand master.
04:34And I'm going to say quite boldly and confidently that Cheyenne is one of those master puppeteers, if not the
04:48grand master.
04:50I don't know.
04:51Maybe I can't go there.
04:53Maybe there's someone higher than him that I don't know, you know.
04:58But as far as to my knowledge, and I have been following this system very closely.
05:08I mean, Cheyenne, you know, the buck usually stops right there with him.
05:14And so when these younger apostles, prophets, pastors, whatever their title might be, evangelists, when they get caught with their
05:27pants down, and so many of them have literally been caught with their pants down.
05:34And YouTube podcasters like yourself have been exposing them doing, like, six-hour videos.
05:43There's another guy, Jonathan Welton.
05:46I just heard a six-hour video yesterday.
05:51Like, man, it took up most of my day.
05:55But I, along with so many Christians today, like, we want to know.
06:03We're really hungry to know what is the truth behind all of these guys, right?
06:09So, going back to what I was saying, you know, as soon as these men get caught, they might get
06:19reprimanded, but there's always the restoration process, right?
06:26Because the higher-ups, like, Cheyenne, you mentioned Cindy Jacobs, Bill Johnson.
06:36I say higher-ups because they are.
06:39They're older.
06:40And if you ask these younger men, they will look to these guys as their spiritual parents, right?
06:49So, you know, when people complain about, you know, Jeremiah Johnson, Sean Foyt, Sean Balls, Jonathan Welton, it's brought up
07:03to the hierarchy.
07:08And usually what happens is they might say, okay, well, you've got to step down for a couple months and
07:16go through this, you know, process.
07:18But they're so quickly put back into the system, you know, only to victimize even more young, gullible, impressionable Christians,
07:32right?
07:33Who don't even realize it is a cult.
07:36Like, I know this is your expertise, John.
07:39I am deliberately using the word cult because at first I didn't think it was a cult.
07:47I just thought, no, I'm part of a non-denominational Christian network of churches
07:56that maybe has some, you know, like rogue pastors who are not really entrenched in the system.
08:09And so if they go too far off with their fantastical, extra-biblical, mighty exploits in the name of Jesus,
08:19and then they go too far off, they can just snip, snip, and say, no, no, no, no, no.
08:23We don't want to go that, you know, like way off.
08:29That's charismania.
08:30We're not charismaniacs.
08:33We are mainstream, you know.
08:36So those of us in the mainstream, we just keep drinking the Kool-Aid.
08:42We're just thinking, oh, no, it's still safe, right?
08:45We're still in a safe space, you know, this Pentecostal charismatic movement.
08:51There's still a lot of great elements.
08:54So that was me, you know.
08:56I was kicked out of my very first NAR church where Pastor Cheyenne was my senior leader.
09:05He was also my former brother-in-law because I was married to his wife's brother.
09:12And so when I got kicked out because I eventually divorced my ex-husband,
09:18who was emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and physically abusive for 10 years,
09:25so I finally got divorced in 1996.
09:31I still continued to drink the Kool-Aid.
09:35I thought that I just, you know, I failed the system.
09:42I was the dysfunctional one, right?
09:45I was too broken.
09:48And so, you know, I did backslide.
09:52They call it backsliding.
09:54Nowadays, I guess some people would call it deconstruction.
09:58But I walked away from God and my faith.
10:04I became a nominal Christian.
10:06I still went to church on Sundays, but that was it.
10:09For seven years, you know, because I honestly felt like I was now rejected by God himself.
10:19And thankfully, around 2004, because I was going to a more word-based, healthier church,
10:35my leaders in that church loved me enough, right, to teach me the right things.
10:41We had classes that helped me understand my traumas, my brokenness.
10:49And guess what?
10:51I actually did get, you know, inner healed.
10:57And it was mostly through the word, John.
11:00It was mostly through biblical counseling and sound psychologically-based therapy.
11:14And I'm going to say, at least in the last 15 years of my life,
11:22I am thankfully now just a normal, I'm just going to call myself a normal Christian
11:30trying to follow Jesus in the best way I know how.
11:36That's it.
11:37I'm not going to label myself.
11:41I'm not going to try to figure out what kind of a Christian I now am.
11:47I just know Jesus, and I just know the word.
11:51And let's just keep it simple.
11:54That's my life now, John.
11:56Well, I'm one step behind you because I don't know if I would call myself normal yet.
12:01But I know exactly what you're saying.
12:04And I want to go back to something you said.
12:07You mentioned the puppeteers.
12:08And I want that to be the theme of where we're headed because it isn't really the figures that you
12:17see on stage that are the problem.
12:19And in my opinion, it isn't even the puppeteers that are the problem.
12:22But the system that created all of these puppeteers, for me, it's unbelievable.
12:28It really is.
12:29I was, my grandfather was the pastor at William Branham's Branham Tabernacle.
12:34Branham and Gordon Lindsay are really the ones who you can blame for most of this stuff.
12:38I was fairly close friends with Branham's sons, and one of his sons, who is now dead, is the subject
12:46matter of prophecy.
12:48I believe that before he was an old man, and he was, gosh, his 60s or 70s, whenever I knew
12:54him.
12:55But I believe that before he was an old man, California was going to sink because that was the prophecy
13:00in Latter Rain.
13:01And he died of old age, which is kind of ironic when you think about it.
13:06But I knew him very closely.
13:07My wife fed him biscuits and gravy at the local Dairy Queen, and he would come in in his fishing
13:13clothes.
13:13He was just an average, average guy.
13:16But I also saw how people looked at him from the stage persona side.
13:22And I knew him pretty well.
13:24I knew him well enough to know that he was very cautious in what he said.
13:28He was respectful.
13:29I liked him.
13:30He was a great guy.
13:31But he could say something like, I really think that that person needs to not talk in the way that
13:37they do.
13:37That person needs to be silenced.
13:40There would be enough people who were just nutty enough that they would make that happen.
13:45Then, on the other hand, there would be people who watched it happen and thought, oh, my gosh, that was
13:52a prophecy.
13:52That was a prophetic statement.
13:54And he's just – and I'm using that as a just generic example.
13:58But there were statements that were made that were just casual statements.
14:02And you'd have people who would enact those statements and people that thought it was prophetic.
14:06That's how weird it gets.
14:08Well, to the people who thought it was prophetic, now you've created this mystique around them.
14:12And they've become more than human.
14:14They really do.
14:16At the same time, the reason I wanted to focus on puppeteer, this thing that evolved very much mimics the
14:25traveling circuses.
14:27If you go way back in time to the tent revivals, you had the traveling circuses.
14:31If an acrobat were to fall and make a huge mistake, he'd sit out for a while while his leg
14:37healed.
14:38But then they'd put him back in the ring because he's still making them money, right?
14:42That's right.
14:43And the people who ran the circuses, they're just average people, too.
14:47There's no mysterious thing to them.
14:49But they have acts that thrill the people and make them feel like there's this mystique around them.
14:55Look at these acrobats.
14:56Look what they can do.
14:57Look at the magician, the lion tamer.
15:00All of those people are just average people.
15:02But when you're in the crowd, they're more than average.
15:05They're something to be a subject of awe and inspiration.
15:11Well, when Gordon Lindsay and Branham started into the healing revivalists, they were on the scene whenever these tents would
15:18go around, mostly in the rural areas.
15:21But these tents would attract the big crowds.
15:24And it isn't even – I don't think they even really had bad intent.
15:28But because of the way it was structured, they acted like a circus.
15:33They really did.
15:34And come see the man who can preach.
15:36They even had a levitating boy.
15:37Come see the boy who can preach and levitate.
15:40It's mimicking a circus, right?
15:43Right.
15:43So, to the people of that era, oh, my gosh, the power of God can make that little boy levitate
15:49while he's preaching with William Branham.
15:51To us in this decade, we're like, no, that's not Christian, and that's probably a stage trick.
16:01Fast forward, you know, 100 years from now, they're going to look back at these people in these stage acts
16:06now that they're calling Christianity, and they're going to say, how did anybody believe this?
16:11Don't they know that all of this is just stage acts, stage tricks?
16:14So, for me, I want to break down the stage acts.
16:17And I have – as you know, I have been studying from early 1700s all the way up to the
16:24Lateran movement.
16:26Then I'd go back again and come another trail.
16:28I'm going through all of these trails of history to see the spider web of history.
16:32Where did they get all of this stuff?
16:34And now with you, I want to go forward, because all of that spider web of history led to one
16:41important thing.
16:42William Branham's campaign manager, Gordon Lindsay, Branham had a mental health crisis that took him off of the field.
16:52The entire organization was intended to advertise his ministry, but when he was taken off, Gordon Lindsay saw the power
16:59of it
16:59and started attracting other stage acts, other circus acts, right?
17:04So, he created the Voice of Healing revivals.
17:07I want to say there were thousands of these ministers that got involved with this, each one a traveling stage
17:13act.
17:14So, to your point of puppeteers, and there's a grandmaster puppeteer, maybe, I look at it a little bit differently.
17:21They are – they're gears with the little teeth and the cogs in the gear.
17:26Each one is important to that gear, because when that gear's moving, if there's one cog missing, suddenly it stops.
17:32So, each one is this cog in a wheel.
17:35Some guy falls to immorality or whatever, well, his cog is missing, and it's all going to come to a
17:41screeching halt.
17:42So, you've got to pick them back up.
17:44I think a system that is built like that, where it's not so much about Christian, but it's about keeping
17:50the momentum, that is the problem.
17:53No, I love that.
17:55I love your analogies.
17:57In fact, you know, when you were talking about the cogs and, you know, I could see the wheels turning,
18:03and actually the term that I'm thinking of right now is like the Gnar machine, you know?
18:11And I think what you and I are attempting to do here is analyzing that Gnar machine, like who started
18:21it, you know, how does it – you know, what's the fuel that keeps it going?
18:26And, you know, and you're absolutely right.
18:28There have been times when it – some scandal would threaten to stop the machine entirely, but whoever is benefiting
18:40from this machine still being, you know, in existence, usually money, power, fame, you know, the usual stuff that drives
18:51people.
18:53So, yeah, absolutely, they will quickly, hey, got to fix that cog, put it back into place.
19:01Oh, okay, good.
19:03Now we can keep rolling.
19:05And my personal desire, the reason why I'm here with you, John, is because I think we just need to
19:16stop that machine dead on its tracks and enough with this nonsense.
19:23Like, let's just please do away with this whole thing because you know what it is.
19:28It is, at the very least, a distraction.
19:32It's a waste of time, and it's a waste of our money.
19:37I mean, you know, like, I still believe in the gospel.
19:43I still believe in telling people about what Jesus did for us on the cross.
19:49Like, I always go back to that.
19:50But I am pretty sure those first century apostles are, like, rolling in their graves and looking at this church,
20:01which resembles nothing like the churches that they built back, you know, as is explained to us in the New
20:15Testament.
20:16So, if I may, I told you I would do this.
20:20I came across this very interesting article on Facebook.
20:28And it's called Attention is Spiritual Currency.
20:36All right.
20:38Some people are not pulling on your attention because they love you.
20:42Okay?
20:43So, you called it a circus act?
20:45That's perfect.
20:46Because these circus owners, they're not there because they just love you so much.
20:54And they love your kids so much that they are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts.
21:00We all know.
21:01They're making it.
21:02They're doing it for the money.
21:04I mean, can we at least be honest about that?
21:07Can these pastors at least be honest that we're taking your tithes and offerings because, you know what, we need
21:15to make a living too, right?
21:17This is a job where you're pastors, somebody has to pay for the bills, you know, the lights and the
21:23whatever.
21:24At least be honest, you know?
21:28All right.
21:29So, some people are not pulling on your attention because they love you.
21:32They are pulling on your attention because your focus feeds them.
21:38Every thought repeated long enough becomes an energetic investment.
21:46Every emotional attachment becomes a doorway.
21:51Every fixation, addiction drains something from the spirit.
21:58And if anybody wants to argue that going to an art church, listening to the music, you know, spending an
22:09hour just being lulled into complacency and then listening to a very vibrant, exciting speaker who talks about their exploits,
22:22the signs and wonders that they are performing.
22:26And it's usually in other countries, by the way.
22:29It's like, oh, I just came back from Asia or I just came back from Africa because there's no way
22:34for us to really know, right?
22:36And this is what's happening over there and revival, you know, this is revival.
22:41And I spoke to multitudes.
22:43It always has to be multitudes, by the way, because it's all but the numbers.
22:48No one's going to be impressed that you're able to gather 10 people in Africa, right?
22:54It's got to be like, you know, the pictures are always showing like, wow, for miles around, they all came
23:01to see this miracle crusade.
23:06So, it's an addiction.
23:09You know, people love to have their ears tickled.
23:13That's from the Bible.
23:14And so, they'll listen to these false prophets, these false apostles, and they don't realize that by spending all that
23:23time in churches like this, something is actually being drained from their spirit.
23:30A distracted person is easier to manipulate.
23:35An exhausted person is easier to control because, mind you, you go to any of these churches, doesn't matter if
23:44it's your first Sunday.
23:45They might love bomb you and give you free food and free lunch.
23:49You might even get to talk to the pastor.
23:53Wow, you have an invitation to the sacred office of the pastor, and he'll talk to you and say, so
24:02where are you from?
24:03And, oh, you know, my wife and I are so happy that you're here.
24:07And if you need anything, you know, here's my personal number.
24:12If you're lucky, there are some churches that do that.
24:17But with enough time, all of a sudden, you get a call, and it's not really to check on how
24:25your family is doing.
24:26It's to tell you that, oh, we need more volunteers for the kids' church.
24:32Can you please volunteer, you know, for the children's ministry?
24:36And, by the way, I know all about this because I was in one of the churches.
24:41I was the assistant director for the children's ministry, and, man, it was like pulling teeth, getting people to come
24:49and volunteer to watch the screaming kids and the crying babies, you know.
24:56I mean, I am not trying to make light of these volunteers.
25:00I think what they're doing is amazing, and they all deserve medals, but not everybody's drawn to that kind of
25:08ministry.
25:11So, yeah, so this part about being exhausted, I honestly don't know of anyone who's been through these NAR churches
25:22that did not talk about how exhausting that was.
25:25So, yes, serving here, serving there, serving everywhere.
25:29And then this last one, a confused person struggles to hear themselves clearly.
25:37And I think that's the first to go.
25:39After the love bombing, after serving, serving, serving, after, let's say, a year of you giving your time, your money,
25:47your energies,
25:48because you love God, and you think these men and women are trustworthy, you can't even hear yourself think anymore.
26:01Like, you've got maybe relatives asking you, how come we never see you on Sundays?
26:06Like, even after your one-hour church service and we invite you for lunch, you always say no because you're
26:13still at church.
26:16And, you know, you're nodding because you get it.
26:20Church is not just a one-hour deal.
26:22I wish it was.
26:24For many church volunteers, it's a whole-day affair.
26:30And this last part, that is why discernment matters.
26:34That is why boundaries matter.
26:37And that is why intentionality matters.
26:41First, we need to be mindful of what constantly receives our emotional and our mental energies without ever restoring or
26:54healing deeply within us.
26:58So, I'm just going to conclude it with this.
27:02We need to, oh, sorry, attention is spiritual currency.
27:08So, we need to be able to spend it accordingly.
27:13So, that's why I'm here.
27:15Because I think too many Christians are spending their spiritual currency,
27:24they're focusing, and they're giving their attention to a false god.
27:31That's what it really is.
27:33It's a false god.
27:34It is just as diabolical as that golden calf that was built, you know, because people got tired of waiting
27:45for Moses
27:46and got tired of listening to God for real.
27:49So, they tell Aaron, hey, build us something.
27:56And it's not real and it's not eternal, but it's okay.
28:00We'll even give our own gold.
28:03We'll cut ourselves or whatever because people are just impatient.
28:12They like what's fantastic and entertaining and whatever.
28:17That golden calf looks a lot more fun than the tablets of the Ten Commandments.
28:25Like, what?
28:26We have to do these things?
28:29You know what I mean?
28:30So, yeah, it's all a circus.
28:34It's all a farce.
28:36It is a machine that will run us over if we're not careful, if we shut off our brains
28:45and just kind of put our thinking, you know, critical thinking skills to the side.
28:50Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started
28:54or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,
28:59charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
29:04You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
29:09william-branham.org.
29:11On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
29:16Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,
29:21with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
29:25You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
29:31If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
29:38top.
29:38And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
29:44watching.
29:45On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
29:50I'm a bit different from many of my peers because I attack the system.
29:55I don't look at the people.
29:57In fact, I would love to just sit down and have talks with some of the people and try to
30:03help them out.
30:03I really feel sorry for the people trapped in it, from the person in the rank-and-file member level
30:09to the top-tier apostle level.
30:11I know people that got caught up in the system, and what you described about the burnout,
30:19what you described about spending the emotional energy,
30:23those people who do it for any duration of time, it's just like the stage acts.
30:27They really get tired of it.
30:28They get burned out, but they keep doing it.
30:31And I know people who have been burned out to the point where they confided in me that they had
30:39some real struggles
30:40from doing it from day to day, right, Sunday to Sunday.
30:45It's the same way in the circus.
30:47You have a stage act that performs.
30:48They're doing the same act, and maybe the act is tiring.
30:52Maybe the act, maybe it's audience participation, and they see people who are getting hurt.
30:57I can't keep doing this.
30:58People who are getting hurt, or children who are being emotionally scarred by something that you do that's scary in
31:04your act.
31:05From town to town to town, well, if that act is making money,
31:08the person who runs the circus doesn't care if you're calling this out.
31:12It's not until the people rise up and say, hey, you can't do this in our town.
31:16But by then, they're in the next town.
31:19And that's how this operated.
31:21It went from town to town.
31:23They modeled it after John Alexander Dowie.
31:25I have a book that I was researching him, and he was just like you described as well.
31:32He would go into a town and say, in this other place or in this other country, we did this
31:36great thing.
31:37And everybody's like, wow, the power of God.
31:40But they never really stopped to think, did it really happen?
31:43Is he really being truthful?
31:44And he would bring these satchels of all of these people that got healed.
31:48They would write their testimonies out.
31:50Nobody really stopped to think, is that a real testimony?
31:53Did the person really write that?
31:55It wasn't until, I think it was the Los Angeles newspaper, they started questioning, well, we keep hearing of this,
32:04but we don't see any people actually being healed.
32:06Where are they?
32:07But see, the way the STAGE Act works, if you go to one town and they're receptive and they continue
32:13to spend,
32:14you'll go there until they stop spending, then you go to the next place.
32:18Right.
32:18Well, that's what he did.
32:19And he ended up moving all the way from the West Coast to Chicago, Illinois,
32:24because he literally had exhausted all of his money-making skills there on the West Coast.
32:31So this kind of thing happens, but to the person who is caught up in that type of, I don't
32:39know what you call it,
32:40it's a weird type of employment.
32:42Right.
32:43They would be so much happier if they had a job that earned them real money that wasn't preying upon
32:48the people,
32:49and they're trapped in a system they can't get out of, especially once they get rich.
32:54Once they get rich, they can't leave that money behind,
32:57because where else am I going to make that kind of money, right?
33:01But to the people watching it, they think that because of the wealth, this must be of God,
33:08because of this prosperity gospel.
33:10In fact, from everything that I can tell from how the prosperity gospel was birthed,
33:16that was really the catch.
33:18They were starting to see all these people getting rich.
33:21They needed a theological way to describe why they're getting rich.
33:26Otherwise, people would just stop giving to them, right?
33:29I truly believe, and it's my opinion, but I truly believe that's why they introduced the prosperity gospel.
33:34It's so that we can make all this money, and people can say, well, that's of God.
33:38Let's give them more.
33:40So this kind of thing happened.
33:42People were giving them money.
33:44But the people who did it, for a while, it's great.
33:48You're making all this money.
33:49But over time, it turns into a business, and the business, you really don't care.
33:55So when people ask me, why don't you call out to some of these leaders?
33:58They're praying upon the people.
34:00Well, you can do that if you want, but it's like blowing to the wind,
34:04because that's how they make their money.
34:06They'll just go to the next venue, the next city.
34:09Right, right.
34:10And the interesting part about this is, if you go back to the biblical word apostle, what it means,
34:15it's a messenger that's going out to spread the gospel.
34:17Most of them don't even do the revival circuits anymore.
34:21They have to build their empires, and they stay in their empire.
34:24So it's more of a kingdom than it is of a spreading of the gospel.
34:28So for me, I never attack the person.
34:31It is the system.
34:32I understand why the system exists, and I feel sorry for everybody that's trapped in it from the bottom to
34:38the top.
34:38Yeah, no, I think that's why I do, you know, like working with you, John.
34:45My background is I am a history teacher.
34:51I was one for 23 years.
34:54And, you know, when you study history, you have to look at the patterns, right?
35:02Because history will repeat itself.
35:05And if we don't learn from the patterns, and if we don't realize, wait, these patterns are, you know,
35:17it happened here in the Old Testament.
35:21They started following false gods.
35:24God wasn't happy, and they had to be judged.
35:28And then, oh, wow, here it is again in the New Testament, same patterns.
35:33Look at what they're doing to the Son of God.
35:36Look at, you know, to the point where they were persecuting the first disciples
35:45and eventually had to kill Jesus and later on the apostles.
35:51So, like, we should be able to see that there is a pattern of rejecting the real God,
36:02rejecting the real message of God, and stoning the prophets, you know.
36:10So, I feel like what you and I are trying to do, I would never call you a prophet,
36:19and I would never call myself a prophet.
36:22But we're messengers, okay?
36:26I mean, just take all the hype and all the whatever emotional stuff attached to labels.
36:34So, let's just say we're just messengers, and hopefully we are messengers of the real living God.
36:44Because I have been following false gods for so long, and you're absolutely right.
36:56I'm going to call them demigods, okay?
37:00These leaders, you know, the little Gs, they all show up at different times, really throughout history, right?
37:14And many of them claim to be from God, the big G.
37:19But if you follow the pattern, if you look at the way,
37:25they might have started with good intentions, like you said.
37:28But eventually, the fame gets to them.
37:34The wealth becomes too tempting to walk away from, you know.
37:40The power just goes to their head.
37:43I mean, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
37:46We all know that.
37:48And so, when you reach a point where you now have your kingdom,
37:55you now have your empire, like you said.
37:58Then we realize that, oh, I know how to get to where I am.
38:04So, now I'm just going to create other demigods and other, you know,
38:10other gifted and anointed acrobats.
38:18And lion tamers and whatever you want to call them, right?
38:22But they've got something to show.
38:24And they know how to wow a crowd.
38:27And they know how to attract the multitudes.
38:30Well, if you're the guy up here, hey, that's more money for me.
38:34So, sure, I'll promote your book.
38:37I'll endorse your book.
38:38And, yeah, I heard about the fact that you left your wife
38:41and you slept with the secretary.
38:43Or, you know, you had sexual indiscretionary acts
38:47with all those interns and students at your school of supernatural
38:51or whatever.
38:53They're patterns, John.
38:54Like, I don't even need to say names
38:57because we've all been hearing about it.
39:00And it does seem like in the last year or so,
39:04it's like an avalanche.
39:06Like, whoa.
39:08Like, wait, I'm still reading and hearing about this other guy.
39:12Now there's this guy, right?
39:15Like, Jonathan Welton.
39:17Oh, my gosh.
39:18Like, he's one of the worst.
39:19And I just heard about them yesterday, you know?
39:24So, they just keep cropping up.
39:27And you're absolutely right.
39:28It is kind of a waste of time to keep talking about each one.
39:34I mean, it's interesting.
39:36Just like it's interesting to talk about Tom Cruise
39:39or, you know, Brad Pitt or whatever.
39:46Like, it's just like gossip, you know?
39:49It's like Hollywood gossip.
39:51But is it really worth our time and energy?
39:55Just like I read, you know?
39:56Our attention and our focus is our spiritual currency.
40:01So, I like that you're focusing on the machine.
40:04I like that you're focusing on the overall system.
40:07Because as a historian, that's what we do.
40:11We look at the details,
40:13but then we start to look at the patterns
40:15and think where else in history
40:17did we see all these characters,
40:21these details.
40:23And then, like you said,
40:26and where are we headed as a result?
40:28Because I'm telling you,
40:29every dictator,
40:32every, you know,
40:33whether they're fascist,
40:35communist,
40:36you know, Nazis,
40:37like, it doesn't matter.
40:39It never ends well
40:41for the dictator.
40:43It definitely doesn't
40:46do anything for the poor victims,
40:49and there's always millions of victims.
40:52And none of it is
40:55God-honoring.
40:58None of it
40:59should be part
41:00of the true
41:01redemption story
41:02that we all
41:06can
41:08look forward to.
41:10I really do believe
41:12that the cross
41:12is where we're going to find victory.
41:15Jesus is the way,
41:16the truth,
41:17and the life.
41:17I believe in all that.
41:19You will never
41:19convince me not to
41:21believe in that.
41:22That's why,
41:23thank goodness,
41:24that despite the fact
41:25that I've been
41:26part of the circus,
41:29I've probably been
41:30a lion tamer
41:31at one point,
41:32or, you know,
41:35doing my little
41:35acrobatic act.
41:39Yes,
41:40I've been away
41:40from the NARS circus
41:42now for a while,
41:44but I will never
41:48throw everything out,
41:49right?
41:50The baby with the bathwater,
41:51because my foundation
41:53in my Christian faith
41:55is so strong.
41:57My knowledge of the word,
41:58you know,
41:59I have read,
41:59just like you,
42:00I have read the Bible
42:01many times,
42:02front to back,
42:03front to back,
42:05and I've done deep dives
42:07on the word,
42:08you know.
42:08So, for me,
42:11I think,
42:12as historians,
42:15as true
42:16biblical
42:18theologians,
42:20we owe it
42:21to ourselves
42:22and to our fellow
42:24Christian brothers
42:25and sisters
42:26to really get
42:27to the truth,
42:28you know,
42:29and just really
42:31expose
42:31all of this
42:32nonsense
42:33and all of these
42:34distractions
42:35and,
42:36you know,
42:37I mean,
42:38it's distractions
42:38at the very least,
42:41but it is,
42:45it is murderous
42:47at the,
42:47at the very worst.
42:49I mean,
42:50I was forced
42:52to stay
42:52in a physically
42:53abusive marriage.
42:55My ex-husband
42:56could have killed me
42:57in my 20s
43:00and Chaeon,
43:02my pastor,
43:03telling me,
43:04oh,
43:04well,
43:04maybe you've been
43:05called to be a martyr
43:06in your own marriage.
43:07That was his advice.
43:09Like,
43:10really?
43:13My,
43:13like,
43:14my dead body
43:16is worth
43:17more
43:17to you
43:19than,
43:21you know,
43:24than,
43:24than,
43:24than having
43:25somebody
43:26who just
43:28wants
43:29to be healed,
43:31you know,
43:31who just
43:32wants
43:33to live
43:34a good
43:34Christian life.
43:36Like,
43:36that's all I ever
43:37wanted,
43:38John.
43:39And,
43:40because they
43:41had all this
43:42hidden agenda,
43:43they were giving me
43:45all kinds of
43:47very bad advice.
43:49So,
43:50the whole thing,
43:51like I said,
43:52it just needs to go.
43:53There's just been
43:54too many victims
43:55sexual abuse victims,
43:57domestic violence victims,
44:01spiritual abuse victims.
44:02Like,
44:03I could go on
44:03and on
44:04and on.
44:05And,
44:06you know,
44:07I live my life
44:09being an advocate
44:10for abuse victims.
44:11We have a safe house
44:13in the Philippines
44:14that my husband and I
44:15are building
44:15and expanding
44:17because,
44:20you know,
44:21because who's going
44:23to help them
44:23if we don't?
44:24That's the other
44:25reason I do
44:26what I do.
44:26When you think
44:27of the gears
44:28turning with all
44:29of the teeth
44:30that are interlocking
44:32as it turns,
44:33it isn't just
44:35the Gnar apostles
44:36and prophets
44:37that are those teeth.
44:38It's all the way
44:39down to the rank
44:39and file member.
44:40Think about
44:40your situation.
44:42The reason why
44:43you can't
44:44let this out
44:45is because
44:46you're one
44:46of the teeth.
44:47And if you've
44:48ever seen
44:48what happens
44:49whenever a gear
44:50loses a tooth
44:51and as it's spinning
44:52suddenly other teeth
44:53go with it,
44:54had your situation
44:56been called out
44:57publicly,
44:58then suddenly now
45:00we've got more teeth
45:01that are going to
45:01fall out of this thing
45:02because if this is
45:04a movement from God
45:05that is ebbing
45:06and flowing by God
45:07and God is giving us
45:09all strength,
45:10what happens
45:10whenever there's
45:11a bad situation?
45:12What do you do
45:13with this?
45:14One of the other
45:15problems that I see
45:16and that's a large
45:18reason for what I do.
45:19I've worked with
45:20many people
45:21who have escaped
45:22and deconstructed,
45:23probably hundreds
45:24at this point.
45:26They all tell me,
45:27John, I've left God.
45:28I don't want anything
45:29to do with God.
45:31And I don't really
45:32push them back.
45:33I know that there
45:33are others who
45:34don't like it
45:35that I do this,
45:36but I let them go
45:37on their journey
45:38because it isn't
45:39the God of the Bible
45:40that they've
45:41deconstructed from.
45:42It's this God
45:43that's been painted
45:44by the circus act.
45:46And what is it?
45:47It's not even
45:47it doesn't even
45:48resemble the God
45:49of the Bible,
45:50so I can't really
45:50say that it's
45:51a Christian God.
45:53Many of those people,
45:54one of the first
45:55things they tell me
45:55whenever they finally
45:56do come back around,
45:58and some of them do,
45:59they'll enter into
46:00a church and they'll,
46:01I've had multiple
46:02people tell me this,
46:03John, the scripture
46:04just really spoke to me.
46:05And they're talking
46:06about where it's
46:07talking about
46:08I will give you
46:08peace and rest.
46:10They never really
46:11knew that because
46:12they were in a system
46:13that was so demanding,
46:15so high demand,
46:16high control,
46:17they didn't know
46:18what peace and rest
46:19was, and that scripture
46:20now has true meaning
46:21to them.
46:22They were just
46:23in the wheel spinning,
46:24that's all it was,
46:25the wheel spinning.
46:26The problem is this,
46:28I also have the
46:30perspective of being
46:31a businessman.
46:33When you're trapped
46:34in the system,
46:35you're trapped in,
46:36not in a Christian system,
46:37you're trapped
46:38in a business system.
46:39And from a business system,
46:41if you've ever seen
46:42how vicious stakeholders
46:43can be,
46:44I can assure you
46:45it's a bad thing.
46:47Nobody wants to go
46:48through that,
46:49especially on your Sundays.
46:51This is the day of rest,
46:53the day of peace,
46:54and the day of comfort.
46:56They don't have that
46:57because they've built
46:59this engine,
46:59the engine has
47:01to keep moving.
47:02If it stops at all,
47:04they lose everything.
47:05They really,
47:06it's like they have
47:07built a house
47:08upside down
47:09that's a triangle point,
47:10and it's going to fall
47:11one way or the other.
47:12The problem that I see
47:13goes all the way back
47:15to the 50s and 60s.
47:16After Branham and Lindsay
47:18built this thing,
47:19they saw the problem too.
47:21Once the engine
47:22gets bigger,
47:23and we've told
47:24all these people
47:24that this is a movement
47:25that's growing
47:26because it is
47:27the end of days revival.
47:29What happens
47:30when it doesn't grow?
47:32Now the business
47:33has a significant problem.
47:35If you don't show growth
47:36year to year to year,
47:38then suddenly
47:39your movement
47:40doesn't work.
47:41Your engine stops.
47:43And all of the people
47:44who are trapped in it
47:45are your stakeholders.
47:46They're all watching you.
47:47Is this growing?
47:48I don't think it's growing.
47:50This must not be
47:51a move of God, right?
47:52So what do they do?
47:53They come up with this idea
47:54of the billion soul harvest.
47:56And it dates back,
47:58that's some research
47:59I published recently,
48:00it dates back to the 50s.
48:02This is a brilliant scheme
48:04for a businessman.
48:05We can't grow
48:06the business any larger.
48:07We've grown it
48:08as large as we can grow it.
48:10How do we do this?
48:11How do we overcome this?
48:12Well, how do you do it?
48:13You make all of the people
48:15who are trapped in it
48:15grow it for you.
48:17Now they become
48:18your marketing.
48:19They become your advertising.
48:20Oh, yeah.
48:21That's what this was.
48:22It was a business strategy
48:23to continue to grow.
48:25Absolutely.
48:26It worked.
48:27It grew into
48:28the charismatic movement.
48:29And then there's
48:30a point in time,
48:31and I'm still investigating
48:32that deeply,
48:33but there's a point in time
48:34when it slowed again.
48:35And when it slows,
48:37now your business
48:37is coming to a screeching halt.
48:39Everybody's going to fall out.
48:40They come up with
48:41a billion-sill harvest again
48:43because it worked
48:44back in the 50s.
48:45So for me,
48:47it's an engine
48:48that keeps the people
48:49riding in the vehicle
48:50trapped.
48:51Yeah.
48:52And for the people
48:53who are stuck in it,
48:54part of the people
48:55at the bottom,
48:55they're suffering.
48:56Yeah.
48:56And mind you,
48:58it might be something
49:00that, as you said,
49:03it keeps getting rehashed,
49:05right?
49:05It keeps getting like,
49:07oh, this is a new thing.
49:09No, you and I
49:10were a little older
49:13than other Christians
49:15who are younger.
49:17And guess what?
49:18For them,
49:18it is a new thing.
49:20This is why we need
49:22to know our history.
49:23This is why we need
49:24to know that,
49:25you know,
49:25Ecclesiastes said it correctly.
49:28There is nothing new
49:29under the sun.
49:31I mean,
49:32there's a reason
49:32why King Solomon
49:33is considered,
49:35right,
49:35the greatest intellect
49:36there ever was
49:37because it's true.
49:40And,
49:41yeah,
49:42so I'm really,
49:42I know we're
49:43almost like wrapping up,
49:45but I am very
49:48excited
49:48to
49:51just dissect
49:52this machine.
49:54and
49:55see,
49:57you know,
49:58again,
49:59how did it
50:00really get started?
50:02Who,
50:02where did the cogs
50:03come from?
50:04Like,
50:04how does it all
50:05get pieced together
50:08in order for us
50:09to successfully
50:10dismantle it?
50:12You know?
50:14So,
50:15yeah,
50:16because I am telling you,
50:17I have
50:19a lot of stories.
50:20anecdotal history
50:22is always,
50:25you know,
50:26effective
50:26because we do need
50:28the little stories.
50:29We do need
50:29the little narratives.
50:31But what I really enjoy
50:32about,
50:34you know,
50:36writing history
50:36is piecing it
50:38all together
50:39so that
50:40we can see
50:42a cohesive
50:43framework.
50:44like,
50:45oh,
50:45so this
50:45is the
50:46NAR.
50:47Like,
50:47when I
50:48discovered
50:49that all
50:50the churches
50:50I had been
50:51a part of
50:51was NAR,
50:52I was like,
50:53oh,
50:54okay,
50:55at least
50:55there's a name
50:56now.
50:57And I started
50:58reading,
50:58you know,
50:59books
51:00that was
51:02denouncing
51:02NAR theology.
51:03At first,
51:04I was like,
51:05huh,
51:06could this be
51:07true?
51:08Like,
51:08could I have
51:08been duped
51:09all this time?
51:11But,
51:12yeah,
51:12now that it's
51:13been a few years
51:15and,
51:16you know,
51:16especially this year,
51:18I've really
51:18just took a hard
51:20step back
51:21from all of it.
51:24It is definitely
51:25giving me
51:26so much clarity,
51:28so much peace.
51:29Like you said,
51:30I love that verse,
51:31you know,
51:31come all you
51:32who are heavy laden
51:33and I will give you rest.
51:35I've been more
51:35restful,
51:36more peaceful,
51:37more light.
51:40I can see
51:42friends on Sundays
51:43now.
51:43Like,
51:44I have my Sundays
51:46back,
51:46you know,
51:47and my entire week
51:48because
51:50the amount
51:51of time,
51:53energy,
51:54intellectual,
51:55you know,
51:56capacity
51:56that I have
51:57invested
51:58in this system,
52:00it is ridiculous.
52:02And,
52:03you know,
52:04you talk about
52:05how some of
52:06your
52:07your viewers
52:09have walked
52:10away
52:10from the Lord.
52:13And I was about
52:13to say,
52:14unfortunately,
52:15walked away.
52:16But you know what,
52:17I'm not going to
52:17say it that way
52:19because it's
52:20their choice
52:21and
52:23I don't know
52:24if this is
52:25a permanent
52:26walk away
52:27or if this is
52:28something like
52:29what I had to do
52:30for those seven years,
52:31right,
52:31where I had to
52:33go through
52:33my own journey
52:34and really
52:36like to use
52:37the analogy
52:38from the first
52:39interview,
52:40right,
52:40like I walked
52:41away from
52:41my NAR cave
52:44and I realized,
52:46wow,
52:47this is a big
52:48beautiful world.
52:50And guess what?
52:52The non-believers,
52:54they're not out
52:55to get me.
52:56Not all of them
52:58are evil,
52:59you know.
53:00In fact,
53:01some non-believers
53:02to this day
53:03are my closest
53:05friends
53:05and they have
53:07shown me
53:08only kindness
53:09and true compassion.
53:11Whereas the ones
53:12that I thought
53:13were anointed,
53:15gifted,
53:17you know,
53:17Christian healers
53:19and leaders
53:20and all of that,
53:21those were the ones
53:22who totally betrayed me
53:24and they weren't around
53:25when I needed them.
53:26So,
53:27I like that
53:28upside down house.
53:30Like,
53:31yep,
53:31this is totally
53:32upside down.
53:33There is something
53:34really weird
53:35about this
53:36house,
53:37right,
53:37that pretends
53:38to be the
53:39house of the Lord.
53:41Yeah,
53:42I think even
53:42Jesus would not,
53:44I know,
53:46I don't,
53:46I'm not going to say
53:47I don't think,
53:48I know,
53:50I know
53:51that Jesus
53:52is looking at
53:53this upside down house
53:55and shaking his head
53:56and saying,
53:57okay,
53:57kids,
53:59let's go back
54:00to the basics
54:01and let's put
54:02this house,
54:03you know,
54:05back in its place
54:06in the right way,
54:07in the right position.
54:08I think that's
54:09what's happening
54:09right now.
54:10It might seem
54:11chaotic
54:11to some people,
54:13but I actually
54:14see,
54:15see it
54:16as some
54:18great
54:20readjustment.
54:22I don't want
54:22to use
54:23the word
54:23reformation
54:24because
54:24that word
54:26has already
54:26been overused.
54:28I'm just
54:29going to call
54:29it a
54:31readjustment,
54:32a realignment
54:33to the truth
54:37of
54:38Jesus Christ.
54:40So,
54:41yeah,
54:42so thank you,
54:43John,
54:43for letting me
54:45do this
54:45series with you.
54:47I can't
54:48wait to be
54:48back.
54:50And
54:52the last thing
54:53I'm going to
54:53say is
54:54I was a
54:55history teacher,
54:56but I was also
54:57an economics
54:57teacher.
54:58So,
54:59you and I
55:00have two
55:01things in
55:01common.
55:02We both
55:03like history
55:04and we both
55:05understand a
55:06little bit
55:06about economics
55:09and business
55:10and you're
55:10absolutely right.
55:11This machine
55:12is a money
55:13making machine
55:14and that is
55:16a huge
55:16part of
55:17what keeps
55:18it going.
55:19So,
55:19I would also
55:20love to
55:20dive into
55:22that aspect
55:24of this
55:24system.
55:25Well,
55:25you asked
55:26earlier,
55:26how do you
55:27stop the
55:27engine from
55:28running?
55:29Think back
55:29to the
55:30circus.
55:31Think of
55:31the man
55:32in the
55:32crowd who
55:33is watching
55:34intently
55:34while everybody
55:35else is in
55:36awe and
55:37he's calling
55:37out loudly,
55:38I know how
55:39you're doing
55:39that.
55:39I know how
55:40you're doing
55:40that.
55:42Those are
55:42the guys
55:43that they
55:43eject from
55:44the circus
55:44because they
55:45do not
55:45want people
55:46to critically
55:47think.
55:47You're
55:48there for
55:48the show.
55:49This is
55:50how you
55:50stop the
55:51engine.
55:51If you
55:52can get
55:52people to
55:53critically
55:53think,
55:54they walk
55:54away.
55:55Another
55:55point,
55:55and it
55:56actually ties
55:57to that
55:57one,
55:58you were
55:58talking about
55:59people who
55:59walk away,
56:00their journey,
56:00it's their
56:01journey,
56:01but it's
56:02more than
56:02that.
56:03This was a
56:04movement that
56:05trained people
56:06to believe that
56:06God was so
56:07powerless that
56:08if you did
56:08walk away,
56:09he couldn't
56:09draw you back.
56:10So you're
56:11a powerless,
56:12different God.
56:13It's not the
56:13God that's
56:14described in
56:14the Bible.
56:15But more
56:16than that,
56:16this is also
56:17a movement
56:18that praised
56:19every single
56:20time that
56:20there was a
56:21deathbed
56:21conversion.
56:23And those
56:24same people
56:24will tell you
56:25if you go
56:26astray,
56:26you're closing
56:28the door,
56:28you're gone
56:29for good.
56:30Those two
56:30can't work
56:31together.
56:31But a person
56:32who's critically
56:33thinking,
56:33saying,
56:34I see what
56:34you're doing,
56:35I know exactly
56:36what you're
56:37doing,
56:37you're trying
56:38to keep the
56:38engine running.
56:40We need
56:40more people
56:40to stop
56:41and critically
56:41think,
56:42and that's
56:43what we're
56:43going to do.
56:44We're going
56:44to get people
56:45to critically
56:45think.
56:46So thank
56:46you so
56:46much for
56:47doing this.
56:47Thank you,
56:48John.
56:49If you've
56:49enjoyed our
56:49show and
56:50you want
56:50more information,
56:50you can
56:51check us
56:51out on the
56:51web.
56:52You can
56:52find us
56:53at
56:53william-branum.org.
56:54For more
56:55about the
56:55dark side
56:56of the
56:56new
56:56apostolic
56:56reformation,
56:57you can
56:57read
56:58Weaponized
56:58Religion
56:59from
56:59Christian
56:59Identity
57:00to the
57:00NAR.
57:01Available
57:01on Amazon,
57:02Kindle,
57:03and
57:03Orville.
57:32Weaponized
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