Anna Schrader, False Prophecy, and the Road to the New Apostolic Reformation | Chino | Episode 617 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Chino trace the little-known role of Anna Schrader in the rise of Hobart Freeman and examine how prophetic claims, personal prophecies, and layers of affirmation helped shape later charismatic authority structures. They connect Freeman’s changing views on women in ministry, Gordon Lindsay’s post-Branham influence, and the broader shift from healing revival culture into patterns that still appear in modern apostolic and prophetic circles.  Along the way, they contrast vague end-times predictions with the biblical model of prophecy, challenge the use of personal revelation as a tool of control, and show how movements built on charisma, fear, and spiritual hierarchy can leave lasting theological confusion. The discussion also highlights why careful Bible reading, sound hermeneutics, and context-based teaching remain essential safeguards against manipulation.  00:00 Introduction 00:31 The Anna Schrader Connection 01:49 Hobart Freeman, Women In Ministry, And Changing Doctrine 04:25 The Teenage Prophetess Story In Freeman's Early Charismatic Years 09:37 How Five-Fold Ministry Became A One-Man System 10:44 Prophetic Confirmation, Two Or Three Witnesses, And Manufactured Authority 12:11 Jim Jones, Latter Rain Anointing, And The Danger Of Prophetic Validation 13:19 Kansas City Prophets, Paul Cain, And The Pattern Of Affirming Prophets 14:29 After Branham's Death: New Leadership, New Prophetic Voices, And Gordon Lindsay's Strategy 15:23 Chino On Supernatural Validation, Stories, And Biblical Authority 18:11 Freeman's Reversal On Women In Ministry 20:21 Freeman's Contradiction: Rejecting Women In Ministry While Preserving Anna Schrader 22:10 Why Freeman's Ministers Did Not Challenge Him 24:51 Resource Break 25:51 Anna Schrader, Modern Prophets, And Reinventing Old Testament Prophecy 27:41 Schrader's Prophecies, Elijah Language, And The Shift Away From Branham 30:00 Chino On The Vagueness Of Schrader's Prophecies 31:49 Biblical Prophets Versus Generic Modern Prophecy 35:47 Freeman's Contradiction On Personal Prophecy 39:22 The Problem With Fortune-Teller Prophecy 42:39 Why Sound Biblical Teaching Outlasts Charismatic Fads 45:49 Freeman's Deliverance Theology, Fear, And Word Of Faith Pressure 50:02 Untangling Truth From An Unbiblical System 51:45 Hermeneutics: Learning To Read The Bible For What It Says 52:59 Poisoned Doctrine And The Long-Term Effects Of Religious Programming 55:36 Closing Thoughts ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr –

Transcript

00:31Hello, welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:40at william-branham.org.

00:42And with me, I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Cheno Ross, pastor and the voice of

00:47the understanding scripture and truth by Cheno D. Ross' YouTube channel.

00:52Cheno, it's good to be back and to dive into Anna Schrader and the origins, I guess you

00:58would say, of how Christ for the nations emerged out of the latter rain, and Gordon Lindsay's

01:04working with Branham.

01:06And it's interesting to me how so many threads of my research come together in various places.

01:13It was just yesterday I recorded an episode with Bob Scott, and Anna Schrader came up because

01:20of something that I'll mention that happened in the latter rain movement.

01:24There was an element to it that not many people think about.

01:28So as we get into it today, that same element really applies to Hobart Freeman.

01:32And if you think about the steps that were involved to get from Schrader to Freeman, and then Freeman's

01:40working with Lindsay, it'll make sense what I'm about to say.

01:45But there's a reason behind all of this mess that we find today.

01:48It's just never-ending a source of fascination, John, the spiderwebs that connect all of these

01:54things.

01:55So where you and I've been in our last couple of talks together have revolved around Hobart

02:03Freeman's view on women in ministry.

02:06And what my purpose in doing this has been is to uncover and to explain and to document

02:16his changing views on women in ministry and all of the dishonesty that was involved in that.

02:24And I want to have this on the record so that his followers, ex-followers, who listen to these

02:32podcasts now and maybe people in the future who eventually find them, will find answers to some

02:39of their questions, some of the questions that I had from listening to tapes years ago, how things just

02:45didn't quite add up or quite make sense.

02:50And because Freeman was the type of person and minister where you couldn't go up after a message

02:58and have a normal conversation with him, then you don't get your questions answered.

03:03He was good if you want to come up and say, well, God gave me a vision confirming the healing

03:10of your

03:11short leg from polio.

03:12Then he could add that to the 16 confirmations of that healing that he had already received.

03:19And we'll just interject.

03:22He died with a short leg from polio.

03:24So none of those visions were true or accurate.

03:26They were just people making things up.

03:29But early in Dr. Freeman's charismatic ministry, which began in the spring of 1966, he was all

03:37in favor of women in ministry.

03:39And I totally understand that because that's a history of Pentecostalism and the charismatic

03:45movement of the 1960s was women in ministry.

03:48And we can again remind people today in the beginning of this podcast that it's not our point

03:54to take sides on that at all.

03:57Well, my only desire here is just to document Dr. Freeman's ever-changing duplicity when it

04:05involved women in ministry.

04:07I remember somewhere on an earlier podcast, John, I don't know which one it was, but it's

04:12been a good while.

04:13We played a clip, a really interesting clip that you don't hear that often because Hobart

04:18only told this story early, early on.

04:20So it has to be some of the tapes from the early 1970s.

04:24But I'll just share it real briefly again in light of the subject of women in ministry,

04:30especially women allowed to be a prophetess.

04:34So this story that I'm about to tell that Hobart's told on a few occasions on early messages

04:40happened in the church when they still met under the water tower in his home in Claypool,

04:47Indiana.

04:49And they weren't there for long, but they were there in his early charismatic years.

04:55So that would be post-1966, the spring of that year.

05:00And he tells the story of how a teenage girl, teenager, so under the age of 20, was sitting

05:09on the couch, probably in his living room, listening to Hobart, who was the pastor, teacher

05:16of this little home church in his own home, listening to him teach.

05:23And she was caught up, Hobart said, just like Paul, to the third heaven.

05:29She was caught up and God took her all around the world, showed her visions of future events,

05:38prophets, and said that he was calling her into the end-time ministry of a prophetess.

05:45And Hobart was always talking about prophets and apostles.

05:50He's got tapes on how to know, how to judge, how to verify, how to confirm true and false

05:58prophets, true and false apostles.

06:01And he was always talking in such a way where people listening to him could have the expectation

06:10that God might call them to be a prophet or a prophetess or an apostle.

06:17I don't ever, ever remember him talking about God might call you to be a pastor.

06:25It was always those two highest offices that he was just fascinated over because he didn't

06:32believe in him prior to the charismatic experience of his, but afterwards he certainly did because

06:38he was traveling in circles where they were talking about apostles and prophets.

06:43That was the 1960s, John.

06:45Here we are, what, 60 years later, and we're still talking about the prophetic move and the

06:51new apostolic reformation, those offices were just fascinating because they're the highest

06:57ones and that's what everyone would aspire to.

07:00So anyway, here's Hobart telling approvingly the story of a teenage girl who was called into

07:08the ministry as a prophetess.

07:11And then as he relates the story, as she related it to him, she came back from the third heaven.

07:19She said she could look down and see the house there in Claypool under the water tower where

07:24they were meeting and saw all the people meeting there and then came back into either her body

07:31or back into a conscious experience sitting on the couch.

07:35And obviously, this young girl related that story, that experience, quote unquote, that she

07:44had just had to Dr. Freeman, and then he was able to share with everyone else.

07:49Anyone who followed Hobart as seriously as I did back in the 1970s and has heard as many

07:56messages as I've heard, there are 1,157 on the old tape list the month that he died, they've

08:04heard that story before.

08:06Now, not everyone has heard as much as I've heard, so maybe they haven't heard that story,

08:10but that was an interesting story.

08:12So I share that again, and we've shared it before, we actually played it where he's telling

08:17that account, just to verify the fact Hobart believed God was going to call people, women

08:24to be prophetesses and actually call them out of his own church.

08:29And what I've always said about that experience, what I first of all wondered, you know, I was

08:37fascinated and thought, wow, I would like to meet this girl called to be a prophetess.

08:42And then what I always wondered afterwards is, why did I never hear anything about that

08:47girl, which would have been a young woman by the time I was following Freeman?

08:53Why didn't I ever hear about that young woman again?

08:56Surely, if she was called to be a prophetess out of Freeman's home church, that would have

09:02been a huge selling card and selling point for him to say, now look at such and such sister

09:09traveling all around the world as a prophetess.

09:12She was called as a prophetess right out of our home group.

09:16Never heard anything about that young woman again.

09:20And my guess can only be because she was no longer a part of the church.

09:26That never happened, and so Hobart was not able then to use that as a great selling point

09:33later in his ministry.

09:35We've talked about this a few times, how the five-fold ministry, as they call it, taking

09:42the five offices that are mentioned in Ephesians, pastor, apostle, prophet, teacher, evangelist,

09:50how they were created in a much different scheme than the Bible meant.

09:54But then what happened was each person who started their own movement, I guess you would

09:59call it, they really ended up with a one-fold ministry.

10:02They were it, and there was nobody else.

10:06But not many people think about how that happens.

10:09Whenever you have somebody who's that type of charismatic personality, for instance, I

10:14don't have a charismatic personality like this, but if I did, and I were to suddenly say,

10:19God told me thus and thus, and you must obey what I say, how many people in the audience

10:26are going to do it?

10:27Very, very few.

10:29And the problem is, we have people who are doing this, and everyone at one point in their

10:34research will come to that question, how did they do it?

10:39This episode is how they did it.

10:41We're going to get into this a little bit more.

10:46Whether you believe in prophets or not, and modern prophets or not, everybody who has

10:52been at least slightly aware of the charismatic movement is aware that there are people who

10:58are fraudulently claiming to be a prophet.

11:01I'll just say it like that, and no more.

11:04For there to be frauds in the movement, there has to be a scheme for them to get into that

11:10fraudulent prophetic authority, and how do you do this?

11:13They have abused the mouth of two or three witnesses.

11:17They took the passage that said there must be two or three witnesses, and what happens

11:21is some guy or girl will say, I had a prophecy thus and thus, and nobody's going to listen

11:27to them, but if you get a second or a third person to say, I had that same prophecy, or

11:33I had this supportive prophecy, and you are it.

11:36You're dead on the mark.

11:38Well, now everybody's just kind of thinking, well, wait a minute.

11:40This must be real.

11:42That's what these people are doing.

11:44God must be in our midst.

11:46And there were not just Anna Schrader.

11:49There were multiple women who were prophetesses in the movement, and they were supporting changes

11:58that the movement was making strategically.

12:02One of those changes, interestingly, applies to this situation, and I'm laughing at the

12:08absurdity.

12:09It's a little scary.

12:11In the latter rain movement, for you to become anointed in ministry, all you needed was somebody

12:17to lay their hands and prophesy over you.

12:19Well, there was another female who did this, who prophesied over Jim Jones and said he's anointed,

12:27God's leading him, and look where God led him, right?

12:29This is disastrous.

12:31Very terrifying to think that this happened.

12:35So if you examine that situation, you have to understand, number one, that wasn't God speaking.

12:41God's not going to say, here's this anointed doomsday cult leader that's going to lead a

12:46thousand people to their deaths.

12:47So her anointing wasn't true.

12:50It was false.

12:52But more to the point, her anointing wasn't unique because he was being primed.

12:58Jim Jones was being primed to be a leader in this movement.

13:00We have the documentation on the website.

13:03So you had the prophets affirming him.

13:05You had the female prophets supporting the prophets affirming him.

13:09And that's how Jones rises into power.

13:12Now, most of that history is erased.

13:13We only have a few statements to back some of that up, but that pattern repeats, and it

13:19repeats, and it repeats.

13:21Think of the Kansas City prophets, and then that birthed the International House of Prayer.

13:26Well, each one of those alleged Kansas City prophets weren't the main show.

13:32It was Mike Bickle was the main show, but you had the affirming prophets behind him.

13:37One of the affirming prophets worked with Paul, directly with William Branham, Paul Cain,

13:43Paul Cain was William Branham's protege, and he knew how the system worked.

13:48So if you want to game the system, and you can't go into his head to say, was all this

13:53planned strategy, but you can see the pattern emerging, and you can think, putting yourself

13:59in that mindset, if I know the system, if I know how to make this guy it, all we have

14:04to do is have an array of prophets behind him to affirm what he's saying, and then everybody

14:10will listen to him.

14:11Well, Anna Schrader was one of those people, and the fact that she did this thing that you're

14:20describing now to Hobart Freeman reminds me of the Jim Jones situation, but as we'll get

14:25into further in this podcast, there's more behind it than just that.

14:29They're trying to make a shift in the movement, because the years we're talking about, that's

14:34the year right after William Branham died, so we need new leadership, we need to change

14:40the face of the movement, we need new marketing, we need the voices of the prophets to speak

14:45even louder, because now the main head of the movement is dead, we need new heads to

14:51emerge, and Gordon Lindsay was smart in this one aspect.

14:55Instead of putting all the eggs in one basket, I think he wanted to branch out and create several

15:01multiple heads, and in doing so, he basically was creating this pyramid scheme of prophets.

15:06And what is so creepy about all of this is it's just all based on alleged experiences that

15:12people have had.

15:14When we get away from the solid foundation of the Bible, the written word of God, its actual

15:21teaching, I mean, it's just, you said a few moments ago, you're not a charismatic speaker

15:27or a charismatic person, neither am I, I don't have that charisma, and also, and I'm so thankful,

15:37John, I never was, I felt called into the ministry as probably a 16, 15 or 16-year-old teenager,

15:47but it was just an inward call.

15:50Thankfully, I never, I never had anyone lay hands on me, never received anything from any

15:57body, but because I have it, here's what's interesting, then people in the movement are

16:04suspicious of you, because you don't have any great supernatural thing to validate, you

16:12know, your ministry or your calling.

16:14But when you look at these supernatural things, I just think so many of them are suspect.

16:18I personally, this is my own personal belief, don't believe there are prophetesses in the

16:23world today.

16:24Okay, so when you said a few moments ago, this woman who prophesied over Jim Jones and

16:31called him into whatever, that obviously wasn't from God, because look where it went.

16:35I would say the same thing about this young girl caught up from their Claypool church.

16:40Nothing ever happened from that.

16:41So, you know, I don't think that was God.

16:44I'm not for sure.

16:45And, you know, I have it third hand.

16:48I don't even know if Hobart told the whole truth.

16:51I don't know if the girl told Hobart the whole truth.

16:54I don't know if there's any seed to that story at all.

16:59But that's the darn problem with all of these stories.

17:04They're just stories.

17:06And I didn't realize it at the time when I first began listening to Freeman tapes in the

17:11mid-1970s, but most of his tapes are 50% stories.

17:18He is not exegeting a passage of scripture, carefully explaining the context of the verse,

17:28the background, the author, the audience, the intent.

17:31He is not doing that.

17:33He is telling fantastic, charismatic tales, and then he is using those, interweaving those

17:41in a message on faith or healing by pulling verses out of context.

17:46And so as he continued to work his way through the 1970s, by the early 80s, he's probably a

17:55little weary himself with how crazy some of the things were in the charismatic movement.

18:00Although he always held on to the ones that he needed for his own ministry, he began to

18:05jettison some of the other ones.

18:08So by the early 1980s, he was no longer a proponent of women in leadership in the church.

18:19He kept holding on to that prophetess part, but he began to give up just women in ministry

18:26in general.

18:28He taught on 1 Corinthians in the early 80s.

18:31And as we said in the earlier discussions, eventually, if you're going to teach in Corinthians,

18:37you're going to get to chapter 14, where Paul says, let your women keep silent in the church,

18:43for it's not permitted unto them to speak.

18:46If they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home.

18:50Regardless of how you want to interpret that passage, Hobart had to deal with it in light

18:55of all of that he had said earlier in favor of women in ministry.

19:00And so he just does the strangest verbal gymnastics in trying to deal with that passage.

19:09He first of all says very clearly on the two tapes, should a woman be silent in church?

19:16Should a woman be silent in church?

19:18Parts one and parts two, 1 Corinthians 14.

19:22He first of all sets it all up by asking the congregation, now, do you know of any prophetesses

19:29in the church?

19:30So this would not include anyone in the Old Testament.

19:33This wouldn't even include Anna at the temple in Luke's gospel.

19:36Because Hobart is saying, I'm talking about in the church post-Pentecost.

19:42In other words, he's trying to show that there were not any women in ministry,

19:46in leadership, vocal, teaching, authoritative leadership positions post-Acts 2.

19:56And so he said, are there any women in ministry?

19:59No.

19:59Are there any female prophetesses?

20:02No.

20:05So, and so then he raised the question, well, then how are we to explain that there are legitimately

20:14women out there in five-fold ministry?

20:17And what he meant by five-fold was really prophetess.

20:21And so he came up with this crazy, confusing way.

20:26And I just can't believe no one's sitting there in the church, especially his little cronies,

20:31all the ministers that sat under him, how they couldn't see, you know, Hobart, you're talking

20:37out of both sides of your mouth.

20:38Because he said, how can we explain it?

20:41Well, in the first place, you can't tie God's hands.

20:44In other words, God can go against scripture if he wants to.

20:47You can't tie God's hands.

20:49Number two, that's between the woman and God.

20:52You know, who am I to say that she can't be a prophetess?

20:55That's between her and God.

20:56But then he said, John, number three, there's no female ministers going out of faith assembly.

21:02You're going to tie God's hands.

21:05And now it's no longer between the woman and God.

21:08Now it's between the woman and Hobart Freeman as the pastor of faith assembly, whether he's

21:12going to allow her in ministry.

21:14And what my point in discussing all of this is to say this, the reason that he had to

21:22hold on to prophetesses is because of Anna Schrader.

21:27She was the one who initially gave the prophecy based on a vision that she had when she met Hobart

21:36in June of 1966 in Dallas, Texas, and gave him this prophecy, he had to hold on to that

21:44instead of John saying, look, I just, in my own system of doctrine, I have just shown that

21:52there are no prophetesses post-Pentecost in the church.

21:56So I think I need to go back and question whether this sister Schrader is really a prophetess at all.

22:04He was not about to do that.

22:05What was so, there were two things frustrating to me.

22:09What was so frustrating to me was number one, that Hobart was, you know, this ministerial

22:15magician jumping through verbal hoops to outlaw women in ministry, but hold on to one for his

22:22own personal sake.

22:24And number two, that the people in Freeman's church could not, did not realize what he was

22:33doing, they just followed everything Hobart said.

22:37And I was a very young person in my early twenties when I was hearing these things.

22:43And I was able at that time, even though I was not free from Freemanism at that point

22:50at all, I was able at that time in my life to say, no, wait a minute, you're talking out

22:55of both sides of your mouth.

22:56And why couldn't these other ministers under him see that and say something about it?

23:03You know, I guess it's been a couple of years now, John, since we began these podcasts and

23:10several summers ago, I made the statement that the ministers under Freeman couldn't fight

23:17their way out of a wet theological bag.

23:20And we had some fun with that because I caught a lot of flack over that because some of the

23:25ministers who were under Freeman back then wanted to challenge me over that.

23:30But there's nothing to be challenged about.

23:34Those guys were under Freeman then.

23:37Did any of them stand up and say, you're wrong, Hobart?

23:40Absolutely not.

23:42You know, so could they fight their way out of a wet theological bag then?

23:47Absolutely not.

23:48They were as deceived as a summer day is long following everything Hobart said.

23:54The only person who had the internal fortitude to say no, and it was almost too late because

24:03Hobart only lived two months after this, was his own son-in-law, Bruce Kinsey, who said,

24:08no, you can't tell me what kind of tennis shoes I can wear.

24:13You can't tell my wife what kind of purse she can wear.

24:16You can't tell us what kind of foods we can eat, what kind of days we can celebrate, whether

24:22we can pick up a gun and go hunting or not.

24:25No, he objected that.

24:27Did any of the other ministers object?

24:30No.

24:31Then, you know, I rest my case.

24:33There's not a single one of those guys down there.

24:36His cronies, a couple of which are still out in the world today preaching, none of his cronies

24:42could fight their way out of a wet theological back, or they would have challenged him on

24:47all of this double talk concerning women in ministry.

24:50Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern

24:56Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements

25:01into the new apostolic reformation?

25:04You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

25:08www.william-branham.org.

25:11On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,

25:16Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,

25:22audio, and digital versions of each book.

25:25You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

25:31movements.

25:31If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute

25:37button at the top.

25:38And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening

25:43to or watching.

25:45On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

25:50When I'm doing research and I come across names like this that in the world today are long

25:56forgotten.

25:57Almost nobody has heard of Anna Schrader.

25:58Unless you've heard William Branham talk about her, or you might have picked up an old magazine,

26:04you might see her name.

26:07It raises a real problem for me because of this.

26:10What the movement tried to establish, and did not do a very good job at doing so, was

26:16the fact that these were men in modern times who were acting out as Old Testament prophets,

26:23and then tried to reinvent what an Old Testament prophet was.

26:29Because when you're talking about the theological bag, let me break that down a bit for people

26:35who are just casual readers of the Bible who don't really understand what that means.

26:41The Old Testament prophets weren't the fortune tellers.

26:44They weren't the ones predicting futures.

26:46They weren't going to individuals and saying, I had a vision from God that you're going to

26:52get a bunch of money.

26:53That's not what they were doing.

26:55They were more swaying the people whenever the people were stepping out of line.

27:00You're going in the wrong direction.

27:02Change your direction.

27:03Come back to God.

27:05Almost every prophecy in the Bible, if you go through the Old Testament, almost every

27:08one is like this.

27:09There are a few exceptions, but if you understand the history and culture, there's a reason those

27:15exceptions exist as well.

27:17So they tried to reinvent what is an Old Testament prophet.

27:21Then they tried to claim that we are these people, and they tried to emphasize their spoken

27:27word, their rhema, their anointing, in such a way that some of them would say it's not

27:33a replacement for the Bible.

27:35But this is our word for today.

27:37These are the words that God has given our prophets.

27:41Go to Amazon and pick up the book from Anna Schrader.

27:45There's one of them on there.

27:46I got a Kindle version.

27:48And read through some of the prophecies that she has, and you'll find that there are so

27:54many that have no applicable context for either what happened then or what happens now.

28:03But they did have context as a supportive prophecy for something that somebody else said.

28:09So they go to a convention, some prophets out there.

28:11He's speaking on the platform.

28:13God has spoken to me, and we're in the communist scare.

28:16Be scared.

28:17Be afraid.

28:18The Russians are going to invade any day, and the world is going to end tomorrow.

28:23Well, then you find her prophecies talking about this, right?

28:26If you go back and you line up what all the people are saying, and then look at the second

28:30tier of prophets, they're just affirming the nonsense that the guys that we've already

28:35proven are false prophets, they're saying the same things to reaffirm these guys, right?

28:41Anna Schrader is one of these people.

28:43I read through, I spent the better part of a weekend reading through, preparing for this

28:48podcast, some of her prophecies, going to just go through and nitpick all of the more

28:54important ones and show you some really, really good examples.

28:57But I came to the conclusion that there wasn't any substance for me to even critique it.

29:03And so I say, go read it yourself.

29:06You'll find some of the craziest things that she's saying, and it's so vague and non-objective.

29:15I couldn't find – the only thing that I could find of importance as it relates to

29:20this conversation was she basically took the passage from Malachi 4, Behold, I'll send

29:26you Elijah, and she just had that as a recurring theme that doomsday is here, we're all going

29:32to die, Elijah is coming.

29:35But then she started planting the same hints that Gordon Lindsay was, well, the Elijah is

29:41going to turn into a movement of multiple Elijahs.

29:44We need the Elijah ministry to come forth.

29:46In essence, what they did, because they were trying to shift away from Branham, they created

29:53the scheme that evolved into this new Apostolic Reformation.

29:57John, that is a very interesting observation.

30:00So I totally agree with what you just said, and what I heard you just say was basically

30:05two things.

30:07And I remember in the 1970s hearing Freeman's tapes, hearing the name Anna Schrader, and

30:14Anna Schrader's Prophecies of the End Times, I think is the name of those little booklets.

30:21All they were were booklets, and there were either two or three of them available back then.

30:26Evidently, you're telling me there's only one out there now.

30:28But I'm amazed that there's anything available of hers now.

30:35But I did get copies of that, and I hear you saying two things, and they were the exact

30:41two things that I took away after reading those.

30:46When I heard that she had prophesied Freeman's ministry, I thought, wow, I mean, this is a

30:51prophetess on par with prophets and prophetesses in the Bible.

30:55That's what I was thinking, and that's what Hobart wants us to think.

30:59But I walked away.

31:00I read those booklets and read them several times, and I was so disappointed because the

31:08first thing I took away, I would describe as vague, vanilla, generic.

31:16Those would be the three words.

31:17She could go on for a page or two, and I'm wanting like some substance.

31:24What did I hear?

31:25Any dates, facts, figures, anything specific?

31:29Anything I could hang my hat on?

31:31Nothing.

31:33It is so vague of just, thus saith the Lord, I'm calling my people to a life of holiness

31:40with me, yea, saith God.

31:42Just vague, general stuff.

31:47That's one thing I walked away with.

31:49Then I compare that with the prophets of the Bible, and yes, 100% to what you said earlier,

31:55they were primarily preachers of righteousness.

31:57They did predict future events, but that was not their hallmark.

32:02They were prophets and preachers of righteousness calling a wayward nation of Israel back to the

32:08God of the Old Testament.

32:09When they did make a prediction, guess what?

32:13It was really specific, and it absolutely came to pass, and that was one of the ways

32:19Moses said in Deuteronomy that you were going to test them.

32:22So, for instance, when Jeremiah came on the scene prophesying that the southern kingdom of

32:28Judah was going to fall, he was absolutely correct, but you could also say you could look

32:35at the handwriting on the wall, and hold on, I'm not discrediting Jeremiah at all, but just

32:41watch where I'm going with this.

32:43Anybody could have probably prophesied that Judah's going to fall.

32:48You could already tell on the political world scene that the Assyrian kingdom was fading away,

32:55and Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar and Nebuchadnezzar's father had come to power in Babylon, and they

33:01were becoming a significant world power in the Middle East that Israel was going to have to deal

33:07with.

33:07So, you could look at the moral corruption in the southern kingdom of Judah.

33:11Israel had already fallen in 722 BC to the Assyrians.

33:16You could say, yeah, I can prophesy that Judah's going to fall, and probably, since Babylon is the

33:22leading nation, you could just say probably it'll be Babylon.

33:26But Jeremiah did much more than that.

33:28He predicted they would fall, and he said they'll be in captivity for 70 years.

33:33There was a false prophet who came along named Hananiah, who said, no, yea, thus saith the

33:39Lord, you'll only be in captivity two years.

33:42Well, thankfully, you only have to wait two years to disprove Hananiah.

33:46You've got to wait 70 years to either prove or disprove Jeremiah, and Jeremiah was absolutely

33:52accurate.

33:53They were there 70 years.

33:54And whenever they came back, they were released by the new kingdom, Babylon had fallen, Medo-Persia

34:03had come to the supremacy in the Middle East, and their new king in around 538 BC was Cyrus.

34:13Well, guess what?

34:14But Isaiah, who began his ministry back in 739 BC, in the 45th chapter of his prophecy,

34:22200 years before the edict of Cyrus, had predicted Cyrus would be the one who helps Israel in the

34:32future.

34:32And he was right 200 years in advance.

34:35So I'll say all that to say, when the prophets prophesied something with specific dates or

34:44people involved, they were absolutely right.

34:46So when I read Anna Schrader, I come away with, first of all, everything's vague in general.

34:51And then the second thing I came away with was exactly what you said, John.

34:55If they talk about any definite thing, it is always simply a continuation of what some of

35:05the big time ministers were teaching at the time.

35:09You know, communism was something back then.

35:12Everybody was talking about communism.

35:14So definitely you could have some communism in your prophecy.

35:18They were talking about earthquakes, something that happened in Alaska, something was going

35:24to happen in San Francisco.

35:26So then a prophetess could come along and say, yea, saith God, there will be earthquakes in

35:32diverse places.

35:33Well, Matthew said that in his gospel, because that's what Jesus predicted.

35:38You know, it's so easy to pick up generic stuff and then simply to follow whatever the ministers

35:45of that time were saying.

35:46And then here's something else I want to comment on, tying back into something you said earlier.

35:52And I appreciate your input, because then it just, it reminds me of things that I should

35:59say, but I probably wouldn't have said because I would have forgotten.

36:04And that was this.

36:05Hobart had a, he had a fairly consistent teaching against, guess what, against personal prophecy.

36:14I didn't, I didn't come prepared with any clips, but they're easy to find.

36:20Hobart was fairly consistent teaching against, guess what, of all things, personal prophecies.

36:27He said, that's not the, that's not the reason God gives prophecies for you to give personal

36:35prophecy to someone else who direct their life.

36:38But guess what, he, he missed that in several regards.

36:43Number one, he received personal prophecies from people all the time.

36:47And number two, he gave personal prophecies to people all the time.

36:52Now, maybe he would argue, well, I'm someone special, so I can do that.

36:57Or Anna Schrader was someone special, so she could do that.

37:01But he warned against running around in charismatic circles and letting every Tom, Dick, and Harry,

37:08and Mary lay hands on you and give you a personal prophecy.

37:12And yet he did it.

37:13We played a clip a long time ago where in his own church in the Glory Barn, he called Bruce

37:20Kinsey, his son-in-law, thus saith the Lord, I'm calling you into the ministry of a prophet.

37:25That was a false prophecy.

37:27Bruce never became a prophet.

37:29Bruce ended up against his father-in-law and his father-in-law against him and ended up getting

37:35put out of the church.

37:36He was never, he was never a prophet.

37:39Someone else Hobart laid hands on, put his big bony hand across the pulpit right to the

37:47front row to Jeff Barnett, who is still a minister today.

37:53Now, he won't throw Freeman away, but he's a part of Assemblies of God.

38:01You know, he has just traveled down a very rocky road.

38:04Once Hobart died, he tried to be a successor, but that didn't work.

38:09So he chased every Tom, Dick, and Harry that came along with a new anointing, with a new

38:15ministry.

38:16But my point in mentioning Barnett is there's the danger of personal prophecy.

38:21I don't have any personal prophecy that called me into any ministry, and I am so eternally

38:27grateful for that because that's not how it works.

38:30You're called into some kind of ministry by the Lord himself, and you simply know it.

38:35And then you have confirmation in your ability to lead people, in your ability to teach God's

38:41word.

38:42There are various confirmations.

38:43There are no signs from heaven.

38:45I would be suspicious of those.

38:47And if there are exceptions, praise God for them.

38:50But he laid hands on Jeff, called him into the ministry, and look what has happened there.

38:55It's just not a good thing at all.

38:58So yeah, Anna Schrader is probably not very well known, John, by anybody out there today.

39:03But it's just a name that all of us who followed Hobart Freeman know very well.

39:09Even if people don't know anything about her, they know her name very well, and I have been

39:14asked multiple times, when are you going to talk about Anna Schrader?

39:18Because I know that is the whole foundation for Dr. Freeman's ministry.

39:23Not to beat your theological bag comment into the ground, but something that you said.

39:29You said Jeremiah predicted, and then you went into that, but then you went into the other

39:34things.

39:36One of the real problems that I have with a lot of the so-called, I don't know what you

39:41call them, they're against theologians, and they don't learn theology in the movement.

39:46So I don't know what you call these guys.

39:48They're teachers.

39:49They're five-fold ministry teachers who can't teach.

39:52Maybe that's a good way to say it.

39:55But whenever they read the Old Testament prophecies, and I've heard many of them do this, not just

40:00Branham, but you can almost go recording by recording of these guys in the 40s, 50s, and

40:0560s.

40:06They will read a prophet, and they'll focus on the prediction part of the prophecy, because

40:11they really don't understand the rest of the text in the prophecy.

40:16In the way that they're teaching it, they see the word prediction, or they see, behold,

40:22in a few years, this will happen, such and such, they start to interpret a prophet as

40:27a fortune teller, because they haven't really taken the time to read the other books of

40:32the Bible, the kings, all the chronologies, and understand the timelines that are being

40:37established, the prophecies that are being given to the people in those timelines, and

40:44then take it a step further, all of the cultures of the ancient world as it applied to their

40:48culture.

40:48That's a lot of work.

40:49If you don't do that, when you read a prophecy, all you see, well, this is a fortune teller.

40:55He is predicting futures.

40:56I can do it, too.

40:58Watch me.

40:58And they go out and do it, right?

41:01The problem is, that's not what a theologian does.

41:04A theologian is understanding theology and the meaning behind it.

41:08So these people have the wet theological bag comment.

41:14I laugh at it every time you use it, but they don't even have a theological bag, is the point

41:18I'm trying to make.

41:19They're not taking it to that level.

41:23Now take everything that I just said and move it into the application of these alleged

41:29prophecies.

41:30And again, you can go get Anna Schrader's, but you can almost go right down the line.

41:33Any of these people in this era, find their prophecies and look at what they are.

41:39They're usually always predictions.

41:40There's never any word that's given to sway the movement in the right direction.

41:46And as I was reading through hers, there are several prophecies, especially with this

41:51Elijah ministry that's to come.

41:53It's a prediction that we're going to get new faces in the crowd next convention.

41:58And what kind of a movement by God is even caring that there's a new face in the crowd?

42:03If the Holy Spirit's the one to lead and guide, why would you want a prophecy about new mediators

42:11between God and man to come to conventions?

42:14It just gets really, really odd when you think about it.

42:16I came to the conclusion that while, yes, there may be some legitimate prophecy, I haven't

42:22found it yet, but maybe there is in the movement.

42:26I find so many that just really aren't.

42:28They're not even biblical.

42:29They try to pose as Old Testament prophets, but they're not even biblical prophecies that

42:33they're given.

42:34It's the wrong type of prophecy, the fortune-telling, which is condemned.

42:39And you know, John, I would not be a good co-host with you at all for anything current, because

42:44I'm really not that current.

42:48I'm pretty well-versed in the ancient stuff, just because that's what I was learning when

42:55I was young, and I was fascinated over all that.

42:58And I'm not fascinated by any new stuff at all, because I don't trust any of it.

43:01And I'm not saying everything is false out there.

43:04I can't say that, because I don't know everything out there.

43:06But I will say I don't trust the majority of it out there, and I'm not even curious.

43:11You know, it just doesn't interest me.

43:13What interests me is sound, biblical, theological teaching and understanding.

43:19That will always interest me, because I think that's the only thing that's going to last.

43:25God's Word is the only thing that's going to last, the only thing going to endure.

43:29It's going to outlast every fad, every perversion, you know, every new pony trick, every new bottle

43:38of snake oil, every snake oil salesman, they're all going to come to an end eventually.

43:44And, you know, when all the dust settles, the only thing that will be left is God's Holy Word.

43:50And that's where I really think we need to be spending our time.

43:53And I can't understand people's lack of interest in a diligent, regular, normal, happy, joyful study of the Bible.

44:04That's what I'm always advocating.

44:07I hear you advocating that by saying when you got out of the movement or began to get out of

44:13the movement,

44:13the first thing you did is you just began reading your Bible.

44:17It doesn't do any good to buy Anna Schrader's books and Kenneth Hagin's books.

44:22It's the same stuff, just it's just an old woman in a new dress is what I call all of

44:28this stuff.

44:29It's just an old, old woman put in a new dress.

44:34And so I'm not familiar.

44:36I'm sure there are all kinds of prophetesses giving words and there are churches with hundreds of people and they're

44:43so excited

44:44because next weekend, guess who's going to be the featured speaker?

44:49And they're so excited and I feel so sorry for them, John.

44:52You know, I don't know this speaker.

44:54Maybe this is finally one from God, but my guess is it probably won't be.

44:59And what it reminds me of is where I was 40, 45, 50 years ago.

45:05I was so excited to go to the next FGBMFI meeting.

45:11You know, they're going to have it at a cafeteria in downtown Memphis.

45:14I was living in Tennessee at that time in Memphis and we were newly charismatic and there's going to be

45:20brother so-and-so.

45:22And he has a word from the Lord.

45:24I mean, that's all it ever was.

45:26He's got a word from the Lord for his people today.

45:31And here we go, 50 years later, and it's the same stuff.

45:37It's some old, old, ugly lady, but they put her in a new dress and with a new makeover.

45:44But it's the same old stuff that we're hearing over and over again.

45:49And what we really need is good, sound Bible teaching.

45:52I got a call yesterday.

45:54I was out taking a hike out there on the farm, getting my exercise in.

45:59I got a call from a loyal, loyal ex-FA member, ex-Faith Assembly woman who lives in Illinois.

46:09And she just had a variety of questions to ask.

46:13And in the process, I was just able to explain.

46:17And I have talked to her before and she does listen to the podcast and she is very supportive.

46:21You know, I do occasionally talk to people who do not agree with what we're doing.

46:26But they're in the minority, obviously.

46:29They don't want to call someone who is doing research and explaining against Hobart Freeman,

46:37although those people are welcome to call me.

46:40I'm happy to have a civil conversation with any of them.

46:43But this woman who called, you know, she wanted to ask what I thought about Hobart's views on deliverance.

46:50And I told her briefly, here's what I think.

46:52And I said, I promise we will talk about that soon on the podcast.

46:56And I know you've talked, John, with other guests and hosts, co-hosts about deliverance.

47:02But I want to talk about Freeman's views in particular, although they're not much different than anybody else's out there.

47:07Because his followers are still just so, they're so bound by his false teaching and they're so consumed with fear.

47:16You know, it was a fear.

47:18I don't have my healing because of this.

47:21And I can't get my deliverance because of this.

47:23And my husband isn't saved yet because of this.

47:26There was no joy.

47:28There was no peace.

47:29There's no real faith and just trust in God's goodness, in his sovereignty, in his care for us as his

47:38people.

47:39It was always, what do I need to do next to solve these problems in my life?

47:46And, you know, sometimes the answer is not all of the problems in our life are going to get solved

47:53in this life.

47:55But who wants to hear that?

47:56That's why this Word of Faith movement has been so powerful, because people want to be healthy and wealthy and

48:06have no problems.

48:08You know, it's Ponce de Leon, searching for the fountain of youth all over again.

48:14Well, you know, where can we find this water that we can drink from?

48:19And my vision will be cured.

48:22I will never have to wear glasses.

48:24My thinning hair will thicken up again.

48:27I mean, what has gone wrong in Christianity that this is what people are looking for?

48:36But it's exactly what these ministers are giving them.

48:39And I'm sorry if people don't see it this way, but that's exactly what Hobart was after, too.

48:47Hobart came from a very poor background.

48:49He came from a sickly childhood.

48:52And I feel sorry for him, just like I feel sorry for everyone else who's fallen into it.

48:58And I fell into it at one time in my life.

49:01I got out of it.

49:02Hobart never got out of it.

49:04He was looking for schemes, verses, reasons, texts, prophecies.

49:12Combine this verse with that verse and the other verse.

49:15And then don't forget to bring in the back door this verse.

49:19And then if you get all those connected, and then if you say the right things, you've got to have

49:24positive confession.

49:26Then if you say the right things, and then if you get the demons out of your life, and then

49:32if you get this away from me, and then if you do that, then presto, all of a sudden you're

49:38going to have the abundant life.

49:40And that is not the way scripture is written.

49:44It's not the way the early church lived.

49:46It's not the way Israel, when she was in her better years in the Older Testament.

49:52It's not the way she lived.

49:53It's definitely not the way we are going to live today.

49:56And I just feel so sorry for people who have been so caught up on it and still caught up

50:02in it.

50:02So when I was ending that conversation with this woman yesterday, Sunday afternoon on the phone, she said, well, she

50:09said, well, Brother Cheno, she said, were we ever taught anything right?

50:15And I said, look, you were taught a lot of things right.

50:18You know, there were hundreds of sentences and paragraphs that Hobart Freeman said that were right.

50:27But here's the problem.

50:29It was taught within such an unscriptural context that it just becomes almost impossible to disentangle all of that.

50:40You really have to throw it all out.

50:43And I don't mean reject the deity of Christ, the inspiration of scripture.

50:49I don't mean to throw out doctrines.

50:51You have to just throw out that background that you learn things from.

50:57Because, unfortunately, even the truths that you did learn, they were just taught in such an unbiblical context.

51:06They were taught so intertwined with so many other things.

51:10Things, I'm telling you, and I told her, I said, it's almost impossible to untangle it all.

51:16And I said, where are you now in your Christian life?

51:19And she said, actually, she's either going to a church or she's hearing something online.

51:24And she said, the minister, each message is taking a passage from the Bible and just talking just about that

51:32passage.

51:32And I said, wonderful.

51:34That's the way it's supposed to be.

51:37Take a passage from the Bible and let your local pastor or minister exegete that passage.

51:44And then, you know what else she said to me, John?

51:46She said, you know, you did a few podcasts on hermeneutics.

51:51And she said, and I'm listening to this other guy teach on hermeneutics.

51:55She said, I've never even heard that word before.

51:57And she said, Hobart never talked about hermeneutics.

52:01And I said, no, he didn't.

52:02He didn't because he didn't understand.

52:06That's foundational.

52:08Hermeneutics is not Herman who.

52:11It's hermeneutics.

52:12It's the interpretation, how we go about reading scripture and interpreting scripture in its context.

52:18And I said, whatever you're hearing right now from your local pastor on hermeneutics, is it helping you?

52:27And she said, oh, boy, it is.

52:29She said, I am learning how to read the Bible for what it says and not for what I want

52:36it to say.

52:37And I just said, glory, hallelujah, sister.

52:40That's what it's all about.

52:42And that's what is missing in this whole movement.

52:45We are trained to try to find what we want in the Bible instead of just read the Bible for

52:54what it says and then conform our views to that.

52:57Somebody asked me one time after I mentioned that after I left Branhamism, I read the Bible over and over

53:03to try to wash all of this out of my head.

53:06Some guy was talking to me and he said, John, couldn't you find one single thing that's good?

53:11All you talk about is the bad.

53:12And I said, well, he did really recommend to baptize your pancakes and said that was the best way to

53:19eat them.

53:19And by golly, he was definitely right about that.

53:23That is the only way that I would eat a pancake.

53:25But, you know, here's the problem.

53:29There were things that he taught correctly.

53:31There were things that if you read the Bible, you're going to find him matching.

53:34But it's like this.

53:36Would you knowingly give your child a birthday cake?

53:40If somebody whispered in your ear, I have a droplet of poison and I put a poison drop somewhere in

53:47that cake.

53:49Would you give it to your child?

53:52Somebody mentioned that to me.

53:54They worded it a little bit differently and I'm probably slaughtering their example.

53:58But it is a true example.

54:00Once I started thinking about that, if you have some theology good and then you've got this one thing that

54:07is bad.

54:08Well, all of the rest of the theology is viewed along with that bad.

54:13And it can sway you all kinds of different directions.

54:15We were taught some things that were just dead on the mark now that I look at it.

54:20But it's because of the things that I have taken away that it now makes sense to me what was

54:25being said.

54:25It never even made sense.

54:27So, it isn't so much that, in your example, Hobart taught everything bad.

54:32Maybe not.

54:34But what parts did he get bad and how many other doctrines were affected by that?

54:39For me, the sad part about it is being raised in this type of movement, it will take me a

54:45lifetime to figure that question out for Branham.

54:48It ruined so many things, so many passages that when I hear a sermon, I think I've mentioned this to

54:55you.

54:55When I hear a sermon from a preacher, they'll mention one phrase and it sets off all of this programming

55:00in my head.

55:01I'll start thinking of this passage and this passage and it turns into the scatter bomb of doctrine, most of

55:07which is talking about doomsday and communism, right?

55:12And the first time that this happened to me and I noticed it was in an Easter sermon talking about

55:18the love of Jesus and his resurrection.

55:20I could not even focus on that.

55:23That's how bad this is.

55:24And it's because of that example.

55:26We were given this birthday cake of doctrine with poison in one spot and it just poisoned the whole thing.

55:33It's not something that I would go after.

55:35So I'm glad people like you are standing up to correct this mess.

55:39Thank you for doing this.

55:40Yeah, thanks for having me again, John.

55:42And we will pick up with where we need to be with Dallas, Texas and Anna Schrader on our next

55:47go around.

55:48Absolutely.

55:50Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

55:53You can find us at william-branham.org.

55:56For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponize Religion from Christian Identity to

56:02the NAR.

56:03Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

56:32Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:02Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Anna Schrader, False Prophecy, and the Road to the New Apostolic Reformation | Chino | Episode 617

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