Under the Umbrella Of Authority: How Control Culture Works | Podcast Episode 608 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Ava talk through Ava Dawson’s journey from Colorado Springs charismatic networks into NAR-adjacent circles, including IHOPKC influence, high-control leadership dynamics, and the fear-based spirituality that frames outsiders as threats and insiders as the spiritual elite. They unpack “umbrella of authority” language, fivefold ministry claims, and how scandals get minimized through silence, spiritual warfare framing, and protection of leaders.  They also examine how prosperity doctrine and Word of Faith assumptions reshape families, money, and conscience, plus how worship culture and conference ecosystems spread ideas across churches, missions, and training schools. The conversation ends with practical exit advice: leave the system, detox from fear, and return to Scripture without extra-biblical authority structures.  00:00 Introduction 01:08 Ava’s Background In Colorado Springs NAR Circles 05:17 Discovering The Mike Bickle Scandal And Researching NAR 08:10 Connections To Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, And C. Peter Wagner 10:13 Silence, Defense, And Repeated Church Scandals 13:01 Spiritual Elitism And Cult-Like Isolation 16:22 Fear, Objects, Spirits, And Christian Superstition 19:00 The Umbrella Of Authority And Submission Culture 22:14 Five-Fold Ministry And Authoritarian Structures 24:01 Colorado Springs As A Testing Ground For NAR Influence 28:02 Youth With A Mission And NAR-Style Ideas 33:11 How NAR Ideas Spread Through Missions, Music, And Schools 38:01 What Indoctrination Looked Like In Practice 42:07 Victim Blaming, Misogyny, And Spiritual Abuse 44:40 Prosperity Doctrine And Family Damage 49:00 Faith In Faith Instead Of Faith In Jesus 52:02 Advice For People Trapped In NAR-Influenced Movements 54:02 Closing Resources ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Franny Nance, former

00:00:45member of Charismania.

00:00:47Franny, it's good to have you on and to have you help co-host Charismania, the series that

00:00:53I'm doing on Charismania.

00:00:55There are so many things that I've wanted to talk through, and as you know, I've probably

00:00:59– as you probably know, I've had a few guests who have talked through their charismatic

00:01:03experience, and it isn't so much that I'm against the charismatic experience, but I'm

00:01:10against many of the things that happen within it.

00:01:12And one of the biggest of which, which we're going to talk about today, is this deliverance

00:01:18ministry.

00:01:19There are so many problems with the way that it is framed and shaped and the impact it has

00:01:26on, interestingly, both the patient and the quote-unquote healer.

00:01:31All of this scenario creates this mess that I want to talk through today, so thank you

00:01:36for coming on to talk through it.

00:01:37Yeah.

00:01:38Well, thanks for letting me come on to talk about it.

00:01:40I have a little outline, so if I'm looking over here, that's what I'm doing.

00:01:44But yeah, so I just have a little opener, because I was sort of thinking through, because

00:01:52you had mentioned this before, and I've heard a lot of your guests discuss their experience

00:01:57with deliverance, and I recently listened to another podcast, it's called Heaven Bent,

00:02:04and she was talking about her trauma, I guess, related to deliverance ministry and just the

00:02:12fear.

00:02:13So, I don't know, it just got me thinking, but I have my little outline, and I just wrote

00:02:18down, you know, I was kind of doing a brain dump, and what I kind of came to was, you

00:02:24know,

00:02:25deliverance, it didn't fix me, but, or anyone I knew.

00:02:29It's like, but similar to like the name it, claim it, the problem, the failure of it always

00:02:38belong to the patient, the person that, you know, it was your fault, like, you know, you

00:02:44must have opened the door.

00:02:45And so, I was thinking about it, because I really grew up steeped in deliverance, and the

00:02:51idea of the supernatural, that there is the demonic, there's the heavenly realm, and it's

00:02:58real, and you know, we can see it, and there's like manifestations, and that's, you can just

00:03:05go down the rabbit hole, but that's, you know, the cause for a lot of our ailments.

00:03:11But, so, what I've noticed, too, is in the, you know, I'm forming a hypothesis with the

00:03:21idea of the deliverance ministry, like, who's attracted to that?

00:03:25And, you know, a lot of times it does bring in very broken, well, you are, you're very broken,

00:03:30desperate, or whatever, but there's like this almost addictive quality to it, I think, where

00:03:36I see people sort of transfer one addiction for another in that deliverance ministry, and

00:03:42it just spirals you into deeper and deeper weirdness, like, truly, and attracts, you start

00:03:51to attract other weird people, and then you guys just sort of feed off, like, they feed off

00:03:56with each other, and that was, you know, my experience growing up, you know, I love my

00:04:05parents, that's, you know, but my mom had her own struggles and became a Christian when

00:04:11I was a baby, and she sort of dove headfirst into the most extreme possible charismatic things

00:04:20you could, if it was, you know, any type of Holy Spirit or whatever, she was there, and

00:04:24so just read books, and, you know, I said before, the last podcast about all the revivals

00:04:31and, you know, different ministries that we jumped to, but my parents would collect other

00:04:36traumatized people who were, quote, anointed, and then they would just, they would feed off

00:04:44each other or learn, like, new special knowledge that, you know, they didn't know before, and

00:04:51so, you know, we can get into this more, but one thing I wanted to speak to in my experience

00:04:57was there were many opportunities, I think, you know, and my mother has told me this, where

00:05:05that, you know, she could have gone to therapy or whatever, but instead, you know, God saved

00:05:11her and, you know, brought these people in her life, and she learned about deliverance and

00:05:15breaking generational curses or whatever, and there was one lady in particular, we were

00:05:23living in New Jersey at the time, and my mom met her through church, and I think I was

00:05:31in fifth grade, gosh, so that was a long time ago, 93.

00:05:34Sorry. Anyway, but my point is that this spiraled our family just deeper into the supernatural

00:05:44and deliverance, and so it was interesting because this woman that my mom became very

00:05:50close with, my parents became very close with, she was a World War II survivor. She grew up in

00:05:55Latvia, and so she had a lot of trauma in her past, like a lot of unresolved, and so there's

00:06:02a theme

00:06:03there, I'm seeing people that have a lot of deep, unresolved trauma that are then just, I don't

00:06:11know, go into this and, you know, maybe find the Lord through it, but then also find, like,

00:06:17another battle to fight, like, I'm God's warrior now battling this new fight or whatever, their

00:06:26nervous system gets stuck in that, so that's kind of where I'm going, I'm happy to share,

00:06:30like, specific stories, and then just kind of go into, like, that system itself.

00:06:37Absolutely. So, from my perspective, there are multiple angles that we have to look at this,

00:06:44and I don't really know that we can contain it in one single podcast, so I want to dive into

00:06:51what

00:06:51you're talking through and also want to go through a bit of the history and kind of tie all the

00:06:56pieces

00:06:56together, because what we're talking about, when you hear it today, and you hear the word

00:07:02deliverance ministry, you think of modern people, and you think of, you can put faces to deliverance

00:07:07ministry, and there are deliverance ministers, right? But what has really happened, and it's kind

00:07:14of happened behind the scenes where people are not aware that it has happened, is that we have

00:07:21actually created a subculture called the deliverance culture. It's not that we have a deliverance

00:07:27ministry, it's that we have a deliverance culture of people expecting a deliverance ministry,

00:07:32if that makes any sense. I did not know that until I was doing the research on John Dowey,

00:07:39and I wrote the book, Weaponized Religion, Critical Examination of John Alexander Dowey. I was going through

00:07:46his history because I was trying to see, was he truly one of God's generals, as they claim,

00:07:51or was he something else? And I found, lo and behold, this guy started his ministry by stealing a church,

00:07:59and that was the highlight of his life, and then it just went downhill from there. Well, when he came

00:08:05to

00:08:05America, running from all kinds of different weird things, he started posing as one of the early forms of

00:08:14a deliverance minister, but his gimmick was that he had this satchel filled with letters of people

00:08:21who had been healed in some other town or even in some other country, and he would hold a lecture,

00:08:27and he would pull up a letter, and he would read from it, see, I healed this person, and then

00:08:30pull

00:08:31out another one, see, I healed this other person. Well, he was attracting a crowd, and you could probably

00:08:37say that he was a deliverance minister because he was bringing this idea that he could deliver them

00:08:42from all of their afflictions, but there wasn't yet a deliverance culture to accept it. So when he landed

00:08:50on the West Coast, San Francisco, San Francisco, the newspapers were kind of excited because this was

00:08:57a new thing, and they weren't critical at all. They literally reported that he had healed all of these

00:09:04people in all of these other countries and cities and states, and so people read the newspaper,

00:09:08oh my gosh, this guy actually did this. Well, over time, when he continues to do the same thing,

00:09:15reading the letters from people who aren't present, this presents a problem because now the critical

00:09:21thinking is coming to play in the newspaper reports, and they start to say, wait a minute,

00:09:27we want to see some people here, not the people over there. And so there are a couple of stage

00:09:32healings

00:09:32and whatnot, but it was the early forms of what would become deliverance ministries. But eventually

00:09:40what happened is it started attracting all the people who really needed to be healed, and they

00:09:45couldn't be healed by the medical industry, medical profession of that era. Their medical science was

00:09:52just, compared to today, it was almost non-existent. So he offered them something that they could not

00:09:58get elsewhere, and it attracted people who were desperate. My biggest problem with the whole idea

00:10:05of this is that you have people who are offering large groups of people in this deliverance culture

00:10:13an answer to every one of their problems. But if you take batting averages, only like 3% actually get

00:10:20healed. Yeah, no, I would say that that was 100% my experience or in what I've seen. And I

00:10:27would say

00:10:29I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I'm pretty close, like, as far as considering what we, you know,

00:10:35because it wasn't just like, oh, we went up to Toronto, it was so and so is having random person

00:10:42who is, quote, quote, a healer, you know, and we're going to their basement for this, you know. So it's

00:10:49just, there's lots of memories of my sisters and I, like, falling asleep in random place, you know,

00:10:55it's just, yeah, like, we would go, like, you know, my parents were hungry, desperate, you know,

00:11:03so would go to these things to get, you know, what's the next key? Or what is this person promising

00:11:10that will, you know, fix whatever is troubling us? And it's just a side note, it's interesting,

00:11:17I've heard a couple people, I think you mentioned this too, talking about stories and how, you know,

00:11:24it's a lot of stories that people tell. And the youth minister I interned for when I was 19,

00:11:31one thing I was captivated by were all his, like, fantastical stories, you know, just about, like,

00:11:36I pulled over the car and this guy was walking, he was homeless, I just opened the door and I

00:11:40said,

00:11:40today's the day of salvation for you and he got saved, whatever. And I thought it was so amazing,

00:11:46but then I worked for him and then he's telling the same stories over and over again at every,

00:11:52at different churches and I'm thinking, like, you know, I'm naive, so I was like, he needs to tell

00:11:57some new stories, you know, like, but, you know, looking back, it's like, are they even true? I don't

00:12:04know, like, no one, and we don't, I honestly, there's a part, I think people there don't want to

00:12:09verify it. And if you do ask even a little question, you know, you're jealous, you're

00:12:16bringing in a spirit of vision, whatever. And so, it's the same thing with deliverance.

00:12:22The person, I don't know, it's sort of like, I felt by the time I went to IHOP KC in

00:12:29my early

00:12:3020s that I was like a super Christian, that I was heavily equipped. I could speak in tongues,

00:12:34I was spirit-filled, I knew I could bring anyone through deliverance or whatever it was. Like,

00:12:41I have the authority and, you know, my parents to this day, they still carry anointing oil on their

00:12:48keys. So, it's just like, whip it out, like, at any point, you know, we're going to pray for

00:12:52deliverance. So, whatever steps needed to take, and, you know, there's books and books and books on,

00:12:58like, well, this demon needs, you know, this much fasting, or, you know, did you break the

00:13:06generational curse back to eight generations of blah, blah, blah. So, this particular woman that

00:13:11my, you know, parents became friends with, she, like, looked at me and was like, well, you know,

00:13:21Franny has very dark circles under her eyes. That's a sign of psychic heredity. I'm like,

00:13:25what is that? Something I'm going to do with Freemasonry, I don't know. So, it was very much

00:13:31like, okay, we need to pray to break the curse of psychic heredity in your family. So, and that was

00:13:37for the rest of my childhood, prayed over. And it was always, you know, this lady told my parents this,

00:13:43and then my parents would use it, your under eye circles are a barometer for what you've been into.

00:13:49So, I remember being in sixth grade and coming home, and I'm cornered. What are you into? Your dark

00:13:54circle, your circles under your eyes are dark today, you know, or what did you do? And I'm like,

00:13:59uh, uh, you know, thinking, what did I do? And the only thing I could think of was like, well,

00:14:05we had a book fair at school, and this was like when the R.L. Stine Goosebumps books were popular.

00:14:10It's like, I looked at the book, like, I touched it, like, and they're like, that's it. All right,

00:14:13we need to repent for, you know, touching the book, like, breaking whatever door you open to Satan.

00:14:19And so, that's one story of like many where it was like, this person has a special anointing and

00:14:28special discernment, and they can discern this on you, even though you don't see it. So, and you need

00:14:36this prayer, deliverance, whatever, in order to break it, you always need to be, you know, watching

00:14:41your back at all costs, because at any moment, you could be opening the door to the devil, which then

00:14:47will bring curses in your life, and this is why you have this. And that's kind of what it spiraled

00:14:54into. It was very much like, this sounds extreme, but it's true. Like, oh, you have acne? Okay, well,

00:15:00you know, you probably open the door to the devil. And then if it's like, you've gone through that

00:15:04whole thing of like, well, okay, I didn't do that, then it would start to spiral into, well, there's a

00:15:11coven of witches that are concentrating on you. There's like this deep obsession, I've noticed,

00:15:17with like, and you can see it kind of in politics, I will say, you know, my, you know, my

00:15:23parents are

00:15:23very much believing that there is this cabal of witches that, whatever, prey upon children,

00:15:30saccharine, I don't, my point being is that there's always a deeper conspiracy. And, you know, I remember

00:15:36asking, I was like, why would there be a coven of witches concentrating on us? You know, it's like,

00:15:41because we're normal people, like, we don't, we're not in ministry or whatever. And it was just like,

00:15:46well, they, you know, they hate the Jesus in you, and you're anointed, and blah, blah, blah. I'm like,

00:15:50I don't want that, then. You know, it's like, well, you don't have a choice. Like, it's,

00:15:54it is what it is. So, that's kind of where it went. So, it was like this one person. And

00:16:00so,

00:16:00then my parents would just invite her, and they would host groups in her house, you know,

00:16:07where people would receive prayer. But, and even in my own life, you know, with my own torments,

00:16:12or whatever, I don't, deliverance ministry never, I didn't find healing. And I've never seen other

00:16:20people, and that's not even biblical. Like, honestly, it's sort of like, it talks about,

00:16:26like, working out your faith, or, you know, there's, and that's not life. Like, there is,

00:16:31like, a level of, like, if anyone's delivered, you know, from an addiction, yes, it's a miracle,

00:16:36if someone can stop drinking, and they start, but they still have to, like, go to whatever, AA, or do

00:16:44that work, and deliverance allows you to bypass that. It's, and then if you're not delivered,

00:16:50or healed, it's because you're not, you open the door again, or you're so anointed that you're just

00:16:57being cursed, and this is your cross to bear, or whatever. So.

00:17:01One of the interesting parts about being a musician is, whenever you're on stage,

00:17:06you see the difference between what it's like being on stage and being in the audience.

00:17:10And there's this feeling that you get of being a performer, whether you're a good one or not.

00:17:15I, um, the other thing that musicians have in common with what we're talking about,

00:17:21uh, and I do this too, you'll have, like, 10 or 15 songs that are your performing songs,

00:17:27and then you've got all these songs that you enjoy to play just because they're fun.

00:17:31But you will go, if you were to do a stage performance, you would always go to those 10.

00:17:36I started noticing, as I was looking through the sermons at some of these deliverance healers,

00:17:41I began, obviously, with Branham, since that was the cult I was in,

00:17:45some of the sermons were repetitive with different names.

00:17:48It would be the same exact sermon, maybe varying just slightly, but

00:17:52the subject matter was the same, and then it was repeated from town to town to town.

00:17:58And the thing of it is, people were coming to see this,

00:18:01and it was attracting all kinds of weird people.

00:18:05You had people who were desperately ill with, you know,

00:18:10incurable diseases who were coming, and sadly, many of them died.

00:18:14You also had people who had mental health issues who were coming,

00:18:18and they would come and be healed, and then they would go home,

00:18:21and they're still in their mental health condition.

00:18:23Well, they'd come and be healed again and again, and you'd see these people being healed again and again.

00:18:28And did they get healed?

00:18:29Well, they said they did.

00:18:31There's no way to prove it either way because of this positive confession thing.

00:18:35I have to confess that I'm healed, or otherwise I don't receive it.

00:18:38When you go home with a mental health issue, you might feel euphoria, and you might actually feel better.

00:18:43You might actually feel healed.

00:18:45Yeah.

00:18:45But that's the way it works.

00:18:47The problem is when people continue to return, they're looking for an answer for their healing.

00:18:53And positive confession can only go so far because you can confess it until you're blue in the face.

00:19:00If you've got the condition and it's still ailing you, you're going to wonder, well, is there no change?

00:19:05And so the problem that exists, and this is one of the bigger problems that I have with the ministry,

00:19:11is they have this technique of getting your mind to focus on something that isn't your condition,

00:19:17which serves two purposes.

00:19:20Number one, if you're focusing on the thing that isn't your condition,

00:19:23there are people who are sickly just because of the mental aspect of being sickly.

00:19:32Like their hypochondria, for example.

00:19:35If you can focus their mind on something else, they actually start to improve.

00:19:38They feel better.

00:19:39Hey, I'm healed.

00:19:40There are people who have physical ailments that are life-threatening who don't get any better.

00:19:47There's this variety of people who are coming to these meetings, but for a percentage of the people,

00:19:53if you can get their mind to focus on something else, whether they're healed or not, they start to feel

00:19:58better.

00:19:58And then positive confession becomes much easier.

00:20:02The other problem that exists is when you do this, now you're transferring everything onto the shoulders of the person

00:20:10who's coming.

00:20:10Did you positively confess?

00:20:12If not, what else is wrong?

00:20:14You have to give that distraction, right?

00:20:17I have this book, which I'll probably bring it out in one of our podcasts.

00:20:20I've showed it in a couple of the others, but I have a textbook on how to train a deliverance

00:20:26minister.

00:20:27And it has things, I guess you've seen it, it has things like how to cure the demon of hiccups.

00:20:33And it's so weird when you think about it, because in one sense, that sounds crazy, the demon of hiccups,

00:20:40but in the framing that they give you of how these demons operate, if you don't have a demon labeled

00:20:48to the hiccups, well, you've got a missing gap, right?

00:20:51Because if everything negative that happens to your body comes from a demon, well, hiccups is negative.

00:20:56You suffer slightly with it, right?

00:20:59So they have to give a label of a demon to everything.

00:21:01Well, some things just simply aren't a demon.

00:21:04And what do you do with this?

00:21:06Now you've got the people who should critically think, but they're not allowed to.

00:21:10And you have the minister who's telling them that, don't think that way, brother, sister, because the worst thing will

00:21:16come on you.

00:21:17Yeah, that's true.

00:21:18It does.

00:21:19It keeps you trapped.

00:21:20I like how you said that.

00:21:23You don't actually find healing.

00:21:27It's just this, it's a cycle.

00:21:30Like you were saying, a euphoria.

00:21:31It's kind of if you're struggling with a mental illness, whether it's anxiety, depression.

00:21:36I've seen this, you know, with people in my own life, you know, so-and-so is depressed, very heavily

00:21:46depressed today with someone in my family.

00:21:49You just need to pray for her because, you know, there's a covenant of witches concentrating on her.

00:21:54Looking back, I'm like, Ori, you were depressed.

00:21:56Like, and probably, you know, I see it with my own.

00:22:01Like, so, you know, my mother suffered with, you know, her own trauma and her upbringing.

00:22:07And so, after I've been in therapy for many years and just sort of looking at that and seeing like,

00:22:17well, she probably needed like just to work through that.

00:22:20It wasn't a demonic attack or a witch concentrating on her.

00:22:25Like, you were just depressed.

00:22:27Like, so, try to move through that emotion or addressing, you know, like that's part of being human.

00:22:35Like, you know, our traumas, our issues.

00:22:37It's the same thing with this woman that my parents were close with.

00:22:42You know, I look back on the influence she had in our family.

00:22:46And I'm like, well, she was traumatized.

00:22:48Like, she grew up in Latvia in World War II and they're starving, hungry.

00:22:53You know, they're worried for their lives.

00:22:55They came over here and, you know, she had crazy marriages and a lot of brokenness in her family.

00:23:03And it's like, but she was stuck.

00:23:05Like, she, in my opinion, I don't think you, you aren't healed.

00:23:09It's, you know, people have been like, well, you know, God healed me from my eating disorder.

00:23:16And it's like, well, okay, you might not be, like, you're still eating or you might not be actively, like,

00:23:22bulimic or whatever it is.

00:23:24But mentally, you are still stuck in that.

00:23:28You've just transferred your addiction to deliverance or whatever.

00:23:32It's either deliverance or the euphoria of going to these meetings where they play worship music over and over again.

00:23:37You whip yourself up.

00:23:39The person speaks.

00:23:40They offer you hope.

00:23:41You go through the deliverance.

00:23:43And at this point, you know, people are so whipped up, you might manifest, you know, whatever it is.

00:23:49And then you leave with your high, like you said.

00:23:51And then a couple days later, inevitably, you will dip.

00:23:54And so, it's like the devil's attacking me.

00:23:56It's that same cycle.

00:24:00And so, personally for myself, growing up in that, you know, my, so my parents used to always say, like,

00:24:07oh, you're so blessed that you were raised a Christian.

00:24:10And I just remember thinking, like, feeling really guilty because I'm like, well, I'm having my own struggles.

00:24:17You know, like, I struggle with my own panic and anxiety or whatever and, you know, eating disorder.

00:24:25But I felt a lot of deep shame because it's like, well, you know, I know how to pray in

00:24:29tongues.

00:24:29I'm spirit-filled.

00:24:31I've been to 5,000 deliverance minutes.

00:24:33I know how to do that.

00:24:34I know how to, like, cast out demons.

00:24:38But I'm still struggling.

00:24:40And, you know, I would go to various pastors and ask for prayer or for help.

00:24:44And they would get very annoyed with me because they're like, well, you're just not walking it out.

00:24:48I've told you this already.

00:24:51And so, then, of course, I would just sort of internalize more because it's like, well, it's, I think the

00:24:55critical thinking part in me was, like, there's a part that's like, this isn't working.

00:25:00Like, it's not, and there's the part where I was trained from the birth to shut it off.

00:25:07It's like, no, that's, you know, questioning God.

00:25:09That's, you know, whatever.

00:25:10It's something with you.

00:25:11So, I think, and there's a lot that we could go into, but it's, there is a little bit of

00:25:16my own training of, like, turning off your critical thinking, but also, like, well, the problem is yours.

00:25:24Like, it's your fault.

00:25:25And I've seen, I've had to work through this a lot because I see even in just my work life

00:25:30or in family where I just automatically assume it's my fault that I've sort of, you know, that those are

00:25:37patterns I'm trying to, you know, break in my own life.

00:25:41But I do want to say that the answer a lot of times is always, like, what they tell you

00:25:48is go to this camp meeting or this deliverance ministry or read this book.

00:25:54And a lot of those books are very terrifying.

00:25:56There's one that we can talk about later, but this lady named Rebecca Brown, I don't, she wrote a book

00:26:02called Becoming a Vessel of Honor.

00:26:04He came to set the captives free.

00:26:06We had those books, and I remember reading them and having nightmares.

00:26:10I mean, it was terrifying.

00:26:11And actually, that woman, she used to be a doctor.

00:26:13She had her license revoked, and now she's, like, I think she's schizophrenic or whatever.

00:26:17I don't know.

00:26:18So, but to me, I'm like, that's the fruit of this concentration.

00:26:22But the thing I'll end on, which it's a positive thing, when my husband and I got married, we moved

00:26:29to D.C., we were living on Capitol Hill, and we were looking for, you know, a church.

00:26:34And I was really struggling.

00:26:36I don't, I mean, I had been, I was burnt out.

00:26:40Like, I grew up in this, you know, this, like, fight or flight, you know, demon around every corner, like,

00:26:47whatever, IHOP, KC, all these ministries, and just feeling like a failure because I wasn't in full-time ministry.

00:26:54And, you know, and honestly, by God's grace, I married a man who is stable.

00:27:00I mean, he's not perfect, but, like, he's stable.

00:27:02It's like, I think that's why I was attracted to him, because he's very, like, I don't know what you're

00:27:06talking about, you know, and he's Christian.

00:27:08But, anyways, after we got married, I just, I would cry all the time.

00:27:13It was, like, anxiety.

00:27:14I would just cry and cry and cry, cry, cry, cry, cry.

00:27:16And he was like, I don't know what to do, you know.

00:27:20And I was just like, I must have, like, made a wrong choice, or there's just, you know, what am

00:27:25I being cursed with?

00:27:26And so, we ended up at an Anglican church, or I think it was Nandenong, but the pastors have an

00:27:32Anglican background.

00:27:33And they definitely, like, were open to charismatic stuff.

00:27:36And so, they offered healing prayer, and desperate, I went, and I met with the pastor's wife.

00:27:42And I'll be forever indebted to her, because she spent two hours with me, and I was crying, and she

00:27:47was praying for me.

00:27:48And this is what I wish a lot of churches would do, because she said at the end, she was

00:27:54so gentle, but she was like, have you ever been to therapy?

00:27:57I was like, no, you know, and because I've been taught, like, you know, therapists are evil, they're going to

00:28:04get in your mind, they plant things, and they're not of God.

00:28:08And I was like, no.

00:28:10I was like, well, I mean, maybe a Christian counselor.

00:28:11And she was like, no, no, no, not a Christian counselor.

00:28:13She was like, an actual psychotherapist.

00:28:15And I was like, no.

00:28:16And she was like, I think you need to see a trained psychotherapist.

00:28:21And she's like, in fact, we've worked with this particular person.

00:28:26She was like, I will give you her information, and then I will call her to let her know that

00:28:31we're sending you.

00:28:32And, I mean, I appreciate her saying that.

00:28:36And I had to really take a step of faith, because I was terrified to see a therapist.

00:28:42And, but that changed the trajectory of my healing in my life, because it was that, like, I don't know,

00:28:51that learning, unlearning, working through, like, this is called trauma.

00:28:56You know, this isn't a sin, and this is not a demon.

00:29:00You know, it's in that.

00:29:02And so, I can see where, if you have addiction, or whatever it is, and you are addicted to that

00:29:08euphoric high, therapy is a letdown, because it's really facing your inclinations to want to be on that wheel of,

00:29:19like, emotional high, emotional low, emotional high, and sort of step out of that.

00:29:24And that can feel scary and hard.

00:29:27And so, I can see where, you know, people want to stay in that.

00:29:32Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

00:29:40reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?

00:29:46You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

00:29:53On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

00:30:01John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

00:30:07You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

00:30:14If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

00:30:20top.

00:30:20And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

00:30:26watching.

00:30:27On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:30:31There's so much to talk through.

00:30:34I know that this is probably the first time that I've addressed this particular subject.

00:30:38I've wanted to.

00:30:39But there is a problem that exists within Deliverance Ministries that is similar to a situation where you have a

00:30:50salesman who is generating his own sales, if that makes any sense.

00:30:54I watched this television show recently, and this couple were trying to sell candles at this event and not selling

00:31:01any.

00:31:02And they had to sell like, I don't know, 5,000 of them.

00:31:05And the guy sneaks off, and he cuts the power to the place where now everybody has to buy a

00:31:10candle.

00:31:11So he's generated his own sales.

00:31:13Well, Deliverance Ministries do this, and not many people think through that.

00:31:17But what you're describing is something that I have thought really hard about because I have multiple family members who

00:31:25deal with trauma.

00:31:27And to a person who deals with trauma, trauma is – they're more susceptible to other traumas.

00:31:33So when you get a person who's in that state, and they go to one of these deliverance sessions, whatever

00:31:39you want to call it, these deliverance seminars,

00:31:41and they're being told that they have a demon, from a religious standpoint, you think, okay, this is a demon,

00:31:48this is hurting the person, and they're being affected.

00:31:51But by telling them that they have the demon, if it causes the trauma, now you're creating a problem that

00:31:57you can then solve.

00:31:59And that actually happens in these groups, right?

00:32:02Deliverance meetings, especially the ones that get on the platform with them, it can intensify their shame because they feel

00:32:09broken.

00:32:10They feel dirty.

00:32:11How did I get a demon in me?

00:32:12What did I do?

00:32:13Like you said, I have a coven of witches somewhere that's trying to attack me.

00:32:17Why are they doing this in this day and age, right?

00:32:21Well, if you can get the people to believe that you have something that is the answer to their problem,

00:32:27and if they don't even have a problem, create one that you can also answer, like the demon of hiccups,

00:32:32well, you're generating your own sales, and there is a money that flows beyond this.

00:32:39But for me, the money is not so much the issue as it is the trauma.

00:32:45Whenever you are traumatizing people, whether knowingly or unknowingly, the trauma itself can look spiritual.

00:32:53I have seen people suffering trauma, and you can have shaking.

00:32:58Is that spiritual shaking?

00:32:59Are they shaking in the spirit?

00:33:01You can have disassociation.

00:33:03You can have many, many different things.

00:33:05You can have dreams and nightmares.

00:33:06Was the nightmare dream?

00:33:08Is that a spiritual dream, right?

00:33:10The trauma actually puts you into a mental state where you are suffering so intensely

00:33:15that the things happening physically with your body would not otherwise happen if not for the trauma.

00:33:22And at the same time, you're in intense pain mentally.

00:33:25And so you're seeking – it's this vicious cycle.

00:33:28You're seeking healing for your trauma, and you're getting more trauma back.

00:33:32So when you're in that state, that's where the people really spiral out of control.

00:33:37And a person with religious trauma can actually become destabilized whenever they're in this type of environment.

00:33:44And at the same time, they're telling you, don't go to therapy because that's how the demons enter into you.

00:33:50So in other words, we have all the candles.

00:33:53Come get our candles.

00:33:54Don't go get the other guy's candles, right?

00:33:56And we're going to cut the lights so that you have to get our candles.

00:33:59For me, it's just so wrong.

00:34:02Now, I know people will hear me say that, and they'll think John's against praying for the sick.

00:34:08I'm separating the two.

00:34:10There is a difference between the two.

00:34:11And it comes in the word cast.

00:34:14Those who cast out demons are doing an action.

00:34:17Those are the ones who are like the sorcerers.

00:34:19Those are the people who you go to, and you have to go to them so that they can do

00:34:23it for you.

00:34:24Or if you're the average person, you can pray for yourself.

00:34:27Why would you even need to go to a healer?

00:34:29But they train you to believe that you must go to a deliverance minister for certain types of demons

00:34:35because then they have the monopoly on that type of demon.

00:34:38Yeah, no, that is very true because it's like, gosh, I've tried and tried and tried to pray deliverance for

00:34:44myself,

00:34:44and I'm not getting it.

00:34:47And so, it does lead you to these various ministers or ministries.

00:34:52And that was what our experience was growing up.

00:34:54You know, I think that there's some deep pain and healing that both of my parents needed.

00:35:00And for them, the answer was, well, we just need to go deeper for Christ.

00:35:05So, it was hopping around to, it's almost like this underground grapevine of like,

00:35:12this person's showing up at this church basement, you know, come for this.

00:35:19And so, it was just like, broken people that we encountered.

00:35:25And some of it's just like, not safe, you know.

00:35:29And it's sad because it's, you know, I see the torment that, you know, people get stuck in.

00:35:35And I think for me, it's like, well, my gosh, I grew up in this and I've seen this.

00:35:41I don't know anything different.

00:35:43And it's not working.

00:35:44Like, I'm seeing people who, you know, are gay and who have tried very hard, whatever.

00:35:54And, you know, and I would have said my answer, you know, in high school, growing up, college, whatever,

00:35:58even up to IFKC, it's like, oh, you just need the devil cast out of you or that spirit cast

00:36:04from you.

00:36:04And it's like these people who feel that there's something deeply wrong with them.

00:36:09And so, like, you're saying so much shame and they're like, I'm doing everything I need to do.

00:36:17And it's still not working.

00:36:18What's wrong with me?

00:36:20And so, it just, and it will spiral you into that until whether you can break out of it and

00:36:27find another way.

00:36:28But the deliverance and that deep charismania, they don't offer another way.

00:36:33It's like you're either special and, you know, you can be like our poster child of like, this person got

00:36:39healed or delivered or set free immediately from addiction.

00:36:44Or it's like you're not walking it out or you might be walking it out and be perfect, but now

00:36:51you're so anointed that you've got witches concentrating on you because they hate you.

00:36:56And so, I think that's kind of what, growing up, it was like, well, I haven't done anything.

00:37:01And it's like, well, you know, we saw a black cat the other day and a lot of times, you

00:37:07know, witches will transform into black cats and they spy on you.

00:37:10And I'm like, spy on us for what, you know?

00:37:12And it's like, I think as a kid, like you, I would ask these things.

00:37:16I'm like, why?

00:37:17You know, and it's just, there was never an answer and it was sort of like a shameful thing to

00:37:22even ask.

00:37:23And I do remember, we used to have to, my parents would have these like packets of like deliverance packets.

00:37:30And so, it was like, all right, time to go through the deliverance packet again.

00:37:33And it was like, okay, repeat after me, you know, repent of God, you know, I repent of the sin

00:37:39of Ekenkar.

00:37:40And I remember, I was like, what is that?

00:37:42And my mom's like, I don't know, just say it, you know.

00:37:44I was like, I don't even know what that is to this day.

00:37:46But it was, I just remember.

00:37:48And we would go through the packets and I'm like, mom, why do we have to do this again?

00:37:52And she was like, well, we just, we need, it's good to like clean, cleanse yourself over and over.

00:37:56And I'm just thinking, but the Bible says Jesus became the curse, you know, once and for all.

00:38:00Like there is, so I see parts of me where it was like, this doesn't make sense.

00:38:05But I, because I was raised and you're steeped in it, you are just, it's like, not okay.

00:38:13Or I just assume I'm wrong, you know.

00:38:15I was like, well, this person's more anointed, they're more mature, like they probably know better.

00:38:19So, I'm just, I guess I'm wrong.

00:38:23So, yeah, a lot of, a lot of that does.

00:38:26And so, then it does prime you to either stay in these things or, you know, after IHOPKC, I was

00:38:34low.

00:38:34And it just was like, trying to figure out my place.

00:38:38And I ended up joining Amway.

00:38:41I mean, it's like, but in that Amway was, I remember my parents being like, why are you, Amway is

00:38:47a cult, you know.

00:38:48And I'm thinking, they're saying the same things that you all say, you know.

00:38:52And I just, it was so hard for me because I'm like, it's the same thing, you know.

00:38:56Like they have this, like, if you've ever, I don't know, like, you know, people have been to these things.

00:39:02If you go to their big conventions, they do, like, prayer.

00:39:06They're very much in the word of faith, like Kenneth Copeland, like that whole thing.

00:39:10And so, like, you know, they'll say, at least the people I was involved with were like, actually, you know,

00:39:16it's not about making money.

00:39:17It's about saving souls.

00:39:18So, and I was only in it for a few months.

00:39:21And I remember, it was a good friend of mine from high school that got me in it.

00:39:24And I got into it because I was like, I don't want to do Amway.

00:39:27But she was like, oh, we're all Christians.

00:39:28We have a Bible study.

00:39:29Just come to the Bible study.

00:39:30And so, I got sucked in that way.

00:39:33And I remember it.

00:39:34I was like, I can't do this anymore.

00:39:35And I told her, I was like, this is a cult.

00:39:37And it was like, you know, you're, how dare you say it's a cult and blah, blah, blah, you know,

00:39:40whatever.

00:39:41But I see that, like, I was primed to go from, like, extreme, extreme, extreme, extreme.

00:39:47And honestly, I think it was, you know, the friends that I met in college, you know, I'm grateful for

00:39:55that experience.

00:39:56I went to a secular university, liberal arts college, lived with girls that were Christians, women, and they were really

00:40:03good friends.

00:40:04And that was like a stabilizing force in my life where it was like, you know, are you sure about

00:40:10that?

00:40:11And then meeting my husband, who was just a good Presbyterian boy, you know, and was, there was something where

00:40:21I was attracted to that stability.

00:40:22And I think that's why therapy worked for me, too.

00:40:26And I have to be careful.

00:40:27I don't want to jump into, like, you know, because you can get crazy with therapy, too.

00:40:31It's like, well, this modality is the best.

00:40:33And it's like, each person is different.

00:40:35Like, what works for you?

00:40:37But I think what I'm attracted to and what I find safe is steadiness, stability, and, like, yes, you know,

00:40:48I'm still a Christian.

00:40:49I still believe in God.

00:40:51And, yes, there are things that you can't explain.

00:40:53You know, God is big.

00:40:54But, like, there is a level of, like, stability.

00:40:58And I would say even Jesus in the Bibles, to me, that's what I always go back to.

00:41:03It was like, he was always really calm, you know.

00:41:05He wasn't, like, screaming at people or making them feel like garbage.

00:41:10He wasn't rocked by, you know, like, well, did you open the door to the devil?

00:41:15You know, it was just, so, yeah, I think I kind of, and to me, I do feel like it

00:41:22was God's mercy.

00:41:23I mean, someone might disagree or whatever, but I see that in God's kindness of, like, you know, here.

00:41:29And I think God does that for all of us, it's whether if you want to do the hard work

00:41:34of, like, you know, like, stepping out of that cycle of, like, craziness.

00:41:39But it really is those deliverance, these deliverance charismatic ministries, it's very, to me, it's very reckless.

00:41:46And it's very predatory, and it keeps people trapped and makes them, in my opinion, you get worse.

00:41:57And that's, from my experience, what I've seen, people just get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse.

00:42:02And they don't get better.

00:42:05The last thing I want to say, it was interesting, so growing up, we used to always go to this

00:42:10weird place called the Calvary Pentecostal Campground.

00:42:13I don't, I was, like, Googling, trying to figure out if there was any connection with William Branham.

00:42:17But it was started by, like, the Heflin family, and then Ruth Heflin was one of the, anyway.

00:42:23Right. So, we would go to that, and that was just the weirdest, I mean, just, it was the droning

00:42:31of, like, the drums and the music and the, you know, people, and it would just be, if you, I

00:42:37mean, I could probably get, you know, paid to go speak there, because it's like, oh, I have a deliverance

00:42:43ministry.

00:42:43But that's usually, like, where Morningstar people or whatever we'd see.

00:42:48And it's funny to me, because my sister, my youngest sister is an occupational therapist, a hospital that's kind of

00:42:55near there.

00:42:56And she'll tell me, she works in acute care, and she was like, we get the weirdest people that come

00:43:01in from Calvary.

00:43:03And she was like, and so my co-worker's always like, that place needs to be shut down.

00:43:07It attracts the, like, just addicts and all kinds of stuff.

00:43:11And my sister, I'm like, my sister's like, I just keep my mouth shut, because I don't want them to

00:43:15know that I've been there multiple times growing up.

00:43:18And, you know, and I know exactly what they're talking about.

00:43:20And I was just like, so, anyway, I digress.

00:43:23Darrell Bock I'll be getting into this history with actually a couple other co-hosts, but the deliverance ministries that

00:43:28exist today.

00:43:30William Branham and Gordon Lindsay were starting to hold these deliverance seminars to help train people in how to do

00:43:36this thing that Branham was doing.

00:43:37And I'm heading towards your stability with your husband comment, because another thing many people don't think through is the

00:43:46fact that healers are human, too.

00:43:49So the deliverance minister is human, and the human may also have mental health issues.

00:43:55So is he stable?

00:43:57Is he not?

00:43:58William Branham openly admitted that he suffered from severe, what did he call it?

00:44:03He was a severe neurotic, and yet he's holding these deliverance calls, teaching other people how to be this.

00:44:12And there's this fine line.

00:44:14There's this question, well, what part of it was the neurotic condition, and what part was God?

00:44:20You have to separate this, right?

00:44:21If the person openly admits it, that's a question you can't ignore.

00:44:25But whenever a person's in psychosis, they can have all kinds of things, from visions to experiences.

00:44:33The problem is when you're entering into the group think mindset, and the person who is the central figure has

00:44:41some sort of a mental health condition, well, everybody starts to think, well, that's how spiritual people act.

00:44:46And they start acting like this.

00:44:49When outside people see them, they're like, oh, my gosh, is that person crazy?

00:44:54And they may not actually be.

00:44:55They're just taking on the cult identity of the person who is crazy.

00:44:59I was one of these crazy people.

00:45:01Right.

00:45:02I can tell you.

00:45:03You know, and I'll be honest, even today, people laugh sometimes at the comments that I make, but some of

00:45:10the comments I make are actually programmed responses because it was that level of crazy in the movement.

00:45:15And yes, it is funny, and yes, you can laugh at me, but that's the way it is.

00:45:20They have this grandiose personality that all of the attributes that you would see in a person with mental health

00:45:26issues, you find them in the deliverance ministries.

00:45:30Here's the problem.

00:45:32The person who is training people along with Gordon Lindsay to do this, it openly admits he's got a neurological

00:45:38problem.

00:45:40Well, everybody else sees that in the training.

00:45:42Oh, well, that's how you must act to be a healer.

00:45:45And so you've got this wide variety of people who are acting crazy, and they're thinking that's spiritual to act

00:45:50that way.

00:45:51But worse, if you question why they're acting crazy, you've got a demon, and they've got to cast it out,

00:45:58right?

00:45:58So, again, you enter into this vicious cycle.

00:46:01Well, in the end, the problem is that the person who's on stage should have probably been examined by professional

00:46:09mental health professionals, right, and taken out of that scene because they're causing their own trauma.

00:46:16And Branham caused his own trauma.

00:46:18He actually mentioned being suicidal a few times.

00:46:21He was in that state of trauma from his state of neurosis or whatever is the condition.

00:46:27We don't know exactly what he was diagnosed with.

00:46:30He was suffering, too.

00:46:31So the problem now becomes the healer is suffering.

00:46:37He's causing other people to suffer more on top of the conditions that they previously had.

00:46:42And so you've got this compound problem, and you need a true deliverance that you're not going to find in

00:46:48this ministry.

00:46:50I would say that that is 100% accurate in my experience, and it's interesting as a child, like when

00:46:56you grow up in that, that's all you know, and you're dependent on these adults.

00:47:02And so it really is, it is kind of a miracle if you're able to, it's like you're in this

00:47:09cycle and you're able to step out and do something different or think differently or whatever.

00:47:18But I do think that it is reckless to have children involved in that or to see that or to

00:47:25know or whatever or to feel somehow responsible.

00:47:28Because some of these, like, you know, I have KC, their kids ministry, they had that, you know, of just

00:47:39indoctrinating kids into that, you know, well, you can have miracles, too.

00:47:43Here, come pray for this, like, person for healing or deliverance or whatever.

00:47:48And it's just like that, so much pressure to put on.

00:47:52And I think growing up in it, you're idealistic, you know, I just assume that these people are proclaiming Jesus

00:47:59and they're Christian.

00:48:00So, of course, they're honest.

00:48:01Like, of course, they're telling the truth.

00:48:03It's like, they know better than I do.

00:48:05And why would someone who loves God and, you know, proclaim scripture be lying to me or, you know, grifting?

00:48:12You know, it's like you don't think along those lines.

00:48:15And so, it really is hard to start to think in those terms of, like, this is a person and

00:48:24what were they, were they qualified to do this?

00:48:28You know, we went to a lot of Todd Bentley meetings.

00:48:32This was, like, before his first fall.

00:48:37And, you know, it's, that was unfair to him.

00:48:40It's like he kind of came in and addict, whatever, who knows what his, I don't even know his story.

00:48:45But I think that grifting folks saw someone that they could, like, platform and that was charismatic and, oh, he's

00:48:54anointed and was attracting a crowd.

00:48:56And so, you put this broken person who should not be leading at all, you know, and proclaiming Christ or

00:49:03whatever on this platform.

00:49:06And then, of course, he falls apart, which is inevitable because no person can, you know, especially if you're not

00:49:12equipped, can maintain that.

00:49:14And then it's like, well, he needs deliverance.

00:49:17And it's just, it's like an endless.

00:49:19But what happens is, like, the loop never gets closed.

00:49:22Like, it's sort of like, well, Todd Bentley, you know, he had this revival and da-da-da-da.

00:49:28And then he was, like, whatever, stalking people.

00:49:32I don't even know, like, his, whatever his improprieties were and illegal stuff.

00:49:36But then people move on to the next thing.

00:49:39It's never addressed.

00:49:41Like, it's like, oh, well, he's, you know, getting restored or whatever.

00:49:44And it's like, there's, it's interesting to me that what has been frustrating is I'm like, you're not learning your

00:49:50lesson.

00:49:51Like, and I'm not saying that in a judgmental way.

00:49:53It's just that I've noticed it's like, well, let's move on to the next person or this person's anointed or

00:49:59whatever.

00:49:59And I think you just have to look at it's like, it's, these people want to maintain their power.

00:50:07They want to maintain their job, their grift, their money, whatever it is.

00:50:11And so, like, it's sort of like, well, don't look over there.

00:50:13We're going to move on to this next sensational thing.

00:50:16And if you do try to critically think you are a Jezebel or influenced by the devil or, you know,

00:50:25bringing in attacks.

00:50:27I mean, there was a lot of that, too.

00:50:29I think growing up, I was always so worried that my bad attitude or whatever was opening the door to

00:50:39attack my parents.

00:50:40You know, so maybe my dad lost the sale for, you know, the company he was working for because I

00:50:46was listening to rock and roll music.

00:50:48It allowed the devil to come in and attack them.

00:50:50And so, it just, it makes, it does, like you were saying with this paranoia, the deliverance, supernatural stuff, really,

00:50:58it makes you paranoid.

00:51:00Like, you start to think.

00:51:03I mean, you know, when there's, okay, when there's like crows landing in our yard growing up, and to this

00:51:11day, you know, my mom will be like, oh, the blood of Jesus, you know, get them out of here.

00:51:14And it's like, you know, they're signs of the devil, you know, whether it's spying on you or what.

00:51:19And that was, you know, learned through a lot of these, like, deliverance ministries and these people who talk about

00:51:25how, you know, in these books or whatever, like, you know, witches transform into crows or cats and they spy

00:51:34on you.

00:51:35So, it's like, if you're not actively sinning or opening the door to the devil knowingly, well, he's coming after

00:51:42you.

00:51:42And so, it's like, you always have to be on guard.

00:51:45You always have to be vigilant.

00:51:46And I think, too, in this deliverance ministry, there's a lot of addiction to, like, and it's like, just go

00:51:51see a horror film.

00:51:52It's like, people like to be scared.

00:51:55I really believe that.

00:51:56It's like, you get that adrenaline rush of, like, ooh, this is, like, the scary story.

00:52:00Like, let's tell ghost stories basically what it is.

00:52:04And you get your high from that.

00:52:07But it's like, well, you could just go see a horror film.

00:52:09And I'm not advocating for that.

00:52:11Like, I mean, it's interesting.

00:52:12My sisters and I, to this day, it's like, we can listen to a true crime podcast or whatever.

00:52:17But you talk about anything supernatural or, like, horror.

00:52:20I mean, we can't even watch Stranger Things.

00:52:22Like, it's like, no.

00:52:23You know, because we're just, it's so, it's just terrifying.

00:52:25Like, we've, all three of us have had trouble sleeping, you know, because of what happens in the night.

00:52:34You know, and I do remember being a kid, and we'd be told these stories, like, well, Smith Wigglesworth was

00:52:39praying.

00:52:40And then he turned around, and Satan manifested.

00:52:43And he just said, oh, it's you, and went back to praying.

00:52:45And isn't that amazing?

00:52:46And I'm like, I hope that never happens to me.

00:52:48Like, and I remember saying, I was like, I don't want to see anything.

00:52:52And it was like, well, why not?

00:52:53You know, the power of God's so much greater than you.

00:52:56Well, and the funny part is, you are describing what I was going to end with, because what you're describing

00:53:02is the trauma that exists after you have been in this type of movement.

00:53:07I'm traumatized, too.

00:53:08I cannot watch a horror movie.

00:53:09And I'll openly admit it.

00:53:11I can watch cartoons crazily all day long if I want to, to the point people will walk out of

00:53:16the room and say, John, I'm tired of cartoons.

00:53:18I can't watch a horror film.

00:53:20And that's because of this.

00:53:21My mind is still traumatized.

00:53:23And there are triggers that set off, and it's painful.

00:53:28What I was going to end with is this.

00:53:30The problem that exists for me, the biggest problem of all of this, goes back to the trauma.

00:53:35Does the ministry that you're dealing with, I don't care if it's one of the so-called good guys in

00:53:40the deliverance ministry or the ones who are considered by even charismatics as being a little nutty.

00:53:47Do they have a process for handling actual trauma?

00:53:53Because trauma is not a demon.

00:53:55Trauma is something that you can, as a human, you can set off in another human.

00:54:00You, as a deliverance minister, can set this off to the people in your audience.

00:54:03And I think some of them know this.

00:54:05So what is your strategy for trauma?

00:54:08And who benefits whenever somebody becomes traumatized?

00:54:11If the person in the audience is getting traumatized and the person on stage benefits, well, you're a salesman who

00:54:17you're creating your own sales, right?

00:54:20What safeguards do you have to prevent trauma in the ministry?

00:54:24I can't think of any safeguards in the ministry I came from.

00:54:29And yet we were told that we could be delivered and healed from all of these things, and yet they

00:54:33were generating the very trauma that caused countless people to go to therapists after escaping.

00:54:40This is a huge problem, and it's a problem that's not easily solved because they have created the deception that

00:54:48if you have trauma, if you're suffering with trauma, you have a demon.

00:54:52And people are getting wounded in these types of ministries.

00:54:57And for me, that is a problem because you are part of the problem that needs to be corrected if

00:55:04you are creating trauma and you're making the people more sick by listening to you.

00:55:10I'm a speaker, limited.

00:55:12I do this little podcast, which is nothing.

00:55:14If I were to think that somebody in my listening crowd were to become traumatized because of something I said,

00:55:21I would just – I couldn't sleep at night.

00:55:24I couldn't eat.

00:55:25I would be suffering.

00:55:26I would be traumatized because I traumatized another person.

00:55:30I know I can put faces to the people that I'm saying this about in my head.

00:55:35I know people that really wouldn't care as long as that person would contribute money to them as they do

00:55:40it.

00:55:41And for me, that's the biggest problem.

00:55:43I would agree with that.

00:55:44It's a lot of untrained people who are uninformed and uneducated on really serious matters, recklessly going in and saying

00:55:56that they have the answer or whatnot, and using God.

00:55:59I think that's what really is so twisted as well, is you're using a person's deeply held religious beliefs and

00:56:09God to sell your product or prop up your own platform.

00:56:17And I think a lot of times with these deliverance people, it's like, I have the answer.

00:56:23Well, that's the answer.

00:56:25This is what it is.

00:56:27The world doesn't know, but I do.

00:56:29You're schizophrenic?

00:56:30Well, you need to be delivered.

00:56:32And it's like, I mean, I've seen that.

00:56:34People stop taking their medicine, and it just, you get worse.

00:56:39And it's like, well, don't trust doctors.

00:56:41Don't trust medicine.

00:56:41You can only trust the person here who's saying that they're a believer and that they're qualified for this deliverance

00:56:49ministry.

00:56:49And it's like, you know, how so?

00:56:52It doesn't.

00:56:53But yeah, like it keeps you trapped and really stuck and worse.

00:57:00Like, honestly, I would say that's been my experience is that it makes you worse, more afraid, more anxious, less

00:57:06trusting of yourself.

00:57:10And still on that addiction wheel of like, the next speaker, the next new thing, the next, you know, whatever,

00:57:18instead of like, you know, I don't have to go on for this forever.

00:57:23But I participated in this one form of therapy.

00:57:27It's so basic.

00:57:28It's called DBT, dialectic behavior therapy.

00:57:32It sounds more complex than it actually is.

00:57:34It was like group therapy.

00:57:35And it's basically like, I mean, I do it with my kids.

00:57:38It's like learning your emotions.

00:57:40Like, here's the emotion wheel, you know, and then like, when you are emotionally distressed, here are, halt, are you

00:57:47hungry, angry, lonely, tired?

00:57:49Like those things, you know, like how to help yourself move through a distressing emotion and learning like about your

00:57:56emotions or whatever.

00:57:57And you do it in a group therapy session because you kind of talk, like people sort of share and

00:58:02you do your homework that week.

00:58:03Like, but I'm like, well, that's what, not everyone I'm saying with, but there is a level of like, well,

00:58:10that's like what, it's not fun.

00:58:13It's not like exciting.

00:58:14I don't get an emotional high from, you know, being like, all right, hold on, deep breath.

00:58:20All right, am I, am I hungry?

00:58:22You know, like that type of thing.

00:58:24But that's, you know, and I think that's what a lot of people are resistant.

00:58:30What I have seen, you, you want that emotional high and that hit and that, that's not, that's not the

00:58:37answer.

00:58:38But these sensational, you know, they, they keep you, you stuck in it.

00:58:42And so, you see people like Bob Jones.

00:58:44I mean, we've like went to his stuff.

00:58:46Like, we used to drive to Morningstar a lot and there's some weird people there too.

00:58:49And it, people like Bob Jones, who clearly has a mental illness that, but is deified and, you know, you

00:58:56get put on this pedestal.

00:58:58And so, then they start to believe their own like importance and delusions and like, oh, that's a manifestation of

00:59:04the Holy Spirit right there.

00:59:05And it's like, where?

00:59:07You know, I, but, you know, you don't want to say you didn't see it because it's like, well, then

00:59:11I guess I'm not seeing God or whatever.

00:59:12But I'm rambling and going on another rabbit trail, but yeah, just to what you were saying, that they're, it's

00:59:21a, it's a cycle.

00:59:23It's, you know, people start to make money off of it.

00:59:25You know, you know, Rick Joyner and his whole crew, like that's, they're, yeah.

00:59:31I mean, he sells all those books, like the quest or whatever, you know, and of it being real.

00:59:38And, or people have these crusades and that's how they keep their money, their power, control, whatever it is.

00:59:46And I do think it's kind of the worst form because they use your, they use scripture, they use God,

00:59:52they use Christianity to manipulate people and to also, you know, line their pockets.

00:59:57I'm sorry to say it like that, but it's, it's the truth.

00:59:59If, um, whatever the grip, even if you didn't start off as a grifter, it's like, eventually you have to

01:00:05come to grips with like, is what I'm doing helping or hurting?

01:00:10Where, what is the fruit?

01:00:11And a lot of these people, they keep themselves in these echo chambers, especially the high up, the higher up

01:00:15they get, you know, like, and you talk about this a lot in your podcast where it's like, well, you

01:00:19know, I have dirt on you or I'll pet your bag.

01:00:21You pet mine, um, and this is working for us now, but the minute, like, stuff really comes out about

01:00:28like a Sean Bowles or whoever, you know, we don't know, you know, it's like, he's not affiliated with us

01:00:34and, you know, whatever.

01:00:34Cause it's like, well, we're going to drop you because, you know, no longer helps our bottom line to, for

01:00:39us to be aligned.

01:00:40And so, that's the kind of, you know, it's the same thing with, with the deliverance ministry.

01:00:44I honestly don't see any value in it at all.

01:00:47That's my opinion, but yeah.

01:00:50You and I share that opinion.

01:00:52So, thank you so much for doing this.

01:00:53Yeah, it was great.

01:00:55Thanks for having me.

01:00:55Enjoyed it.

01:00:56Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

01:00:59You can find us at william-branham.org.

01:01:02For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to

01:01:08the NAR.

01:01:09Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:01:47Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

01:02:17Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

01:02:19Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

Under the Umbrella Of Authority: How Control Culture Works | Podcast Episode 608

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