When A Church Cannot Survive Without Its Leader | Podcast Episode 619 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Bob examine why central figures in high-control religious movements often feel compelled to return after public scandal, and why their followers may feel an equally powerful need to bring them back. Using Mike Bickle, IHOPKC, William Branham, Kansas City Fellowship, and broader charismatic leadership patterns as points of comparison, they discuss trauma, mythology, reputation, resources, spiritual authority, and the emotional dependency that can form around a dominant leader.  The conversation explores how religious language can mask ordinary human dysfunction, how victims can become cast as villains when they threaten a group's founding story, and why true Christian restoration must be separated from reinstatement to leadership. John and Bob also reflect on the business side of ministry, donor guilt, institutional survival, and the difference between repentance, restoration, and returning to power.  00:00 Introduction 02:04 Why Fallen Leaders Try To Return 04:01 Prophetic Hype As A Spiritual Drug 07:57 Removing The Religious Facade 10:59 Why Scandal Cycles Keep Repeating 13:30 Why Followers Need The Leader Back 16:59 Reputation, Resources, And The Push For Restoration 21:48 Why Some Leaders Become Indispensable To Their Networks 25:11 Mythology, Identity, And The Need For A Hero 28:40 Protecting The Founder After The Founder Falls 31:10 Why Victims Become Villains In The Group Story 33:33 Spiritual Cannibalism And Survival Instincts 38:56 Mistaking Spiritual Gifts For Character 41:20 Why Repentance Is Not The Same As Restored Leadership 47:22 The Business Side Of Leader-Centered Churches 51:38 Grace For Those Who Invested In A Broken System 56:18 When A Leader’s Return Exposes The Real Center Of The Group 57:35 Outgrowing The Need For Superstar Leaders 59:45 Closing Reflections ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org.

00:00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Bob Scott, former co-founder of the Kansas City

00:00:46Fellowship and author of three books, the latest is Some Said They Blundered, Breaking

00:00:51My Decades of Silence on Mike Bickle, The Kansas City Prophets, and The International House

00:00:55of Prayer.

00:00:56Bob, I'm going to ask that you break your silence a little bit more today.

00:01:02I'm coming out of the closet, huh?

00:01:04Yeah, it's unbelievable.

00:01:06I'm getting so many emails, people talking about apparently this email or something went

00:01:12out where it's describing Mike Bickle coming back and being reinstated.

00:01:16And I've actually talked about this with a couple of the guests, three, actually three

00:01:21different podcasts about his return and the issues that some people might have with his

00:01:26return.

00:01:27But with you, I wanted to talk about something else that is related that not many people

00:01:32think through.

00:01:32And that is from the Bickle side, which this won't even be limited to just Bickle, but from

00:01:40the side of somebody who has been in that place of supreme authority as a central figure of

00:01:46a group, they're also deep within the people like this is the need to return.

00:01:52And so, I want to take everything that I have talked about with the past three podcasts about

00:01:57that scenario, flip it on its head.

00:02:00Now, let's talk about it from the reverse angle, the need to come back.

00:02:04Okay, we can do that.

00:02:05I don't know if you remember, but I actually addressed this in my book, which is funny because

00:02:13people that read it are sort of circling back with me going, I always wondered why you put

00:02:19that in the book, you know, your warning about my coming back.

00:02:23And I said to them, well, the reason I put it in there was I was 100% sure you

00:02:28would, or

00:02:30you would try to.

00:02:31And of course, then the next question is, well, why?

00:02:35And it gets to your point, because you have to understand the nature of the beast in a way.

00:02:41You got to understand how, what drives people like Mike, because Mike's not unique.

00:02:48I mean, you know, a lot of people kind of want to put Mike on this pedestal, but Mike

00:02:53is actually the quintessential sociopathic, narcissistic kind of persona that tends to

00:03:02attract people.

00:03:03When you see that personality in the business world, you'll see it in the entertainment world,

00:03:08you'll see it in the geopolitical world.

00:03:10I mean, in my Joseph Company global consulting, counseling world, these are the people I deal

00:03:17with all the time.

00:03:18So Mike is just the same guy of dozens of other people that I know that are all also very

00:03:26high

00:03:26profile, but they're not in the ministry.

00:03:29You know, so the fact that Mike's in the ministry is, I don't want to say it's irrelevant, because

00:03:34it's not irrelevant, but that's not why he's doing what he's doing.

00:03:39That's just a means to an end to fulfill this inner need that he has to be the center of

00:03:45attention.

00:03:45And it's sad in a way.

00:03:52I may have mentioned this in previous podcasts, but one of the things that really bothered me

00:04:02in watching the dynamics of Bob Jones sort of being introduced to our Christian community

00:04:11in March of 1983, and again, this is in hindsight, I'm not saying this is in hindsight years later,

00:04:21this is in hindsight like two or three years later.

00:04:23So around 1985, I started realizing that there was a dynamic in play.

00:04:30And the dynamic was that Bob Jones was functioning in many ways like a spiritual drug pusher.

00:04:40In other words, what would happen would be the mundaneness of church life, right?

00:04:46Where it's lived out every day, and we're living and caring for one another.

00:04:49And it's, you know, it's just life, right?

00:04:53Which is pretty boring a lot of times.

00:04:54And then Bob would show up with some wild, you know, prophecy, or, you know, God showed

00:05:00me, and it would be like this infusion, right?

00:05:03It would be like this, you know, it's like what you see in the movies when somebody just

00:05:07gets that hit of heroin, and then suddenly the whole congregation is like, whatever.

00:05:12And Mike is just like, you know, kicks into this other gear, and he's all wound up.

00:05:17And over time, I began to realize that Mike had an addictive personality.

00:05:26Both his parents were alcoholics.

00:05:28You know, again, you have to remember, I'm in my 20s, right?

00:05:30So there's so much I don't know and understand about life.

00:05:34Now, nearly 70, I look back and go, oh my God, it was so obvious.

00:05:38But at the time, I just was naive.

00:05:40And it took me a while, and as painful as the whole process ended up being, I'm in hindsight

00:05:48looking back going, I learned so much walking through all this.

00:05:52And this was one of the things I realized was this happens all the time in the church

00:05:56world, and that if you step back a little bit and realize what's going on, it's like

00:06:01a drug addict, a drug pusher addict relationship, right?

00:06:07And these spiritual drug pushers come in, and they pump this hype into people, and everybody

00:06:13gets all wound up.

00:06:15And then, you know, that lasts for a little while, and then everybody starts coming down

00:06:18again, and then back they go.

00:06:21And that was Mike.

00:06:23Mike had an addictive relationship with the prophetic guys.

00:06:29He needed it, if that makes sense.

00:06:32Absolutely.

00:06:33You know, whenever you're in that level within one of these groups, it's not just that you're

00:06:38a minister.

00:06:39So whenever people on the outside who are in normal Christian churches and other denominations,

00:06:45their only frame of reference is, I go to church, I see a minister, he speaks.

00:06:51If something happened and he were removed from the platform, they would just simply replace

00:06:54him with another minister.

00:06:55Why can't IHOPKC do this?

00:06:58Or not even limited to IHOPKC.

00:07:00You could literally go down the line of these guys that do this.

00:07:04But what they totally miss is the fact that in this type of religion, where you have a

00:07:10central figure, that central figure is your, I don't know what you call it, the emotional

00:07:15anchor.

00:07:16Basically, he's building and playing upon the emotions of the crowd, and he becomes the

00:07:20anchor for your emotions.

00:07:21So when you go to church, it's not just that you're going to hear the Bible or hear the

00:07:25preacher who's referencing the Bible.

00:07:28You're coming for that emotional high, and you become addicted to it, like you said.

00:07:32And he is the anchor for that emotion.

00:07:35So no longer is it just a teacher or a preacher or anything like this.

00:07:41It's kind of a center of gravity for the movement.

00:07:43Is it serotonin, or what's the buzz?

00:07:48You're talking about a dopamine hit.

00:07:49Dopamine.

00:07:50That's the one I'm looking for.

00:07:51It's like a dopamine hit, isn't it?

00:07:53Absolutely.

00:07:54Yeah.

00:07:54Like, go to church and get a dopamine hit.

00:07:56Yeah.

00:07:57I know.

00:07:58I mean, I try not to be rude here and disrespectful, but here's my problem.

00:08:03And again, if you guys have been following us for the last couple of years, you'll understand.

00:08:08You know, the problem with me and John is we're the guys that just tend to want to take the

00:08:14clothes off of things, right?

00:08:15It's like, let's pull the curtain back here.

00:08:20Let's get behind the facade.

00:08:22And the reason why this is so important in the church world, right, is that there's so

00:08:28much that's a facade.

00:08:29There's so much that's pretense and presentation.

00:08:33But when you actually strip away, you know, the facade, the mask, what you begin to realize,

00:08:40there's nothing any different with this than all the other things we experience in life

00:08:46outside the church.

00:08:47It's the same people, the same dynamics, the same dysfunctions.

00:08:52It's everything's the same.

00:08:53And the reason why I'm so keenly aware of this, for some of you that may not be aware

00:08:58of this, is that I've been for 40 years working with athletes, people in the arts and entertainment

00:09:04world, people that are in the political world, people that are business leaders and the religious

00:09:10thing.

00:09:10And you know what?

00:09:11I realized it's all the same.

00:09:14Everything, like in all these five different sectors that I functioned in for 40 years,

00:09:19it's the same exact problems.

00:09:20It's the same exact dysfunctions.

00:09:22Everything's the same.

00:09:24But when it comes to the church world, where we get ourselves in trouble is we put all this

00:09:29spiritual clothes on it, and therefore, we don't deal with what's really going on, right?

00:09:36Because we mask it with all this pomp and circumstance.

00:09:40And then where it really gets bad is all these spiritual words and terminologies, and we all

00:09:46pretend like we're other.

00:09:48We're not other.

00:09:49We're the same thing.

00:09:52And that's when I get really frustrated, because it's like, but brother, you know, and then

00:09:57I hear all this, and I go, you don't understand.

00:09:59I know what's underneath this.

00:10:01I've been dealing with this for so long.

00:10:03It's not any different.

00:10:04I'm sorry.

00:10:05I know that really bothers you.

00:10:07I know I'm going to get myself in trouble here today.

00:10:10But I'm just saying, it's just really hard for me when I listen to it all, and people just

00:10:15go down this road with all this religious verbiage.

00:10:19And I'm like, you guys, trust me.

00:10:21It's not any different.

00:10:23We're not better.

00:10:25We're not wanting to take the clothes off of them.

00:10:28I think you meant to say, we want to reveal the emperor's lack of clothes.

00:10:35There we go.

00:10:36No, but I'm talking about just taking off this facade, because it's like everybody dresses

00:10:40up in all the spiritual garments, right?

00:10:44Yeah.

00:10:45I don't mean it in that way.

00:10:46I want to take the religious robes off, right?

00:10:48Yeah.

00:10:49I knew what you meant, but I thought I'd clarify.

00:10:51Yeah, but that's a good point.

00:10:52We don't want to get ourselves in trouble, do we?

00:10:55Don't do.

00:10:56Those two disgusting guys.

00:10:59You and I have a difference of perspective, because we're a little bit older than some

00:11:06of the crowd who's watching this now.

00:11:07So we remember the Jimmy Swaggart thing.

00:11:09Yeah, exactly.

00:11:10He's defrocked.

00:11:11He's dethroned.

00:11:12You've got all of these people who say, that guy needs to be out of there.

00:11:15That guy should not be in ministry.

00:11:17So he leaves the Assemblies of God, and he becomes independent.

00:11:21But you watch that crowd that wants that dopamine hit, they're going to follow him wherever

00:11:25he goes.

00:11:27So he just continues.

00:11:27Jim Baker, he's another one.

00:11:29These are names you don't hear anymore, but man, back in the 80s, when was the scandal?

00:11:34It was the 80s, I think.

00:11:35Yeah, it was the 80s, yeah.

00:11:37Yeah, I went through Jim Baker, Marvin Gorman, the Tammy Faye, Jim Baker thing.

00:11:42I mean, this all happened mid-80s, and I was right in the middle of it.

00:11:47So for the younger crowds that are all, oh my God, look what's happening at Daystar, look

00:11:52what's happening at IHOP, look what's happening at Bethel, look what's happening.

00:11:58It's like, for me, I've turned into that old guy that I remember when I was a little

00:12:04guy, when things would go on, they'd go, oh yeah, back in 27, I saw that.

00:12:09Oh yeah, back in 32, we had that, and now I'm like that old guy going, oh yeah, back

00:12:14in the 1980s, I already saw this, right?

00:12:16And that's just because history keeps repeating itself, because humans are kind of predictable

00:12:22in a way.

00:12:23And it's like, it's just the same things keep repeating themselves generation after generation.

00:12:31Same kind of thing, because we don't seem to learn, and every generation that comes up

00:12:36thinks that they're better than the one before them, only to realize over the course of time,

00:12:42no, we're like just the same thing.

00:12:44We have the same dysfunction and same brokenness.

00:12:47So you brought up something, because I want to touch on this as well, because there's two

00:12:51sides of this.

00:12:52You brought up the first half.

00:12:53The first half is why do guys like Mike Bickle keep coming back, right?

00:13:00And let's break that down.

00:13:02But you know what the other half is that equally fascinates me?

00:13:05Why do people want him to come back, right?

00:13:09There's a whole, see, because here's what's interesting about what's going on with Mike.

00:13:13There's a whole group of people that are pushing this, right?

00:13:16I have put long, deep thought into that.

00:13:19Okay, so which one do you want?

00:13:20What side of this do we want to go first?

00:13:22Or should we want to go to unpack the personality type that needs to come back, or the people

00:13:28who need them to come back?

00:13:30Let's start with the people who need them to come back, because I'm going to get on my

00:13:35platform for just a minute.

00:13:37Okay, go for it.

00:13:37I've got all of these different podcast series, as you know.

00:13:40We've talked through this right before we got on here.

00:13:42I've got everything from Branham stuff to Pentecostal stuff to psychological.

00:13:48What's funny to me is the most important series that I have are the ones that people watch

00:13:54the least, and that's the ones where we talk about the psychological aspect.

00:13:59Because if you understand that, all the others just unravel themselves.

00:14:03If you understand psychologically how it works, you just walk away from this kind of stuff.

00:14:07But people don't watch it because it's kind of, I hate to say it, it's not exciting to the

00:14:13itching ears, learning how psychology works.

00:14:16But when you're in this type of movement, and I've heard other people talk about this

00:14:21to some extent.

00:14:22They'll talk about the dopamine hit.

00:14:23These people just want to go back and hear the leader because they're getting a dopamine

00:14:27hit.

00:14:28It's a high that they get on.

00:14:30But that's actually not it.

00:14:32It goes much, much deeper.

00:14:34However, anybody who has left one of these movements, who is really, really suffering,

00:14:41eventually gets to the point where they have to go see a therapist.

00:14:45And the therapist will usually tell them nine times out of 10, I'm sorry to tell you this,

00:14:49but you came from this high control group, you are now dealing with complex trauma, and

00:14:55we have to unravel that trauma so that you can be successful in life.

00:14:59And they work through that.

00:15:00It's a long, drawn out process.

00:15:01I'm going through that, and it may be the rest of my life I go through this, right?

00:15:06Some people who are in this movement, these types of movements that have this structure

00:15:11where you get this dopamine hit, those dopamine hits can come from fear.

00:15:16They can come from just simply enjoyment, excitement.

00:15:20There's so many different ways, but all of those turn into trauma because you're associating

00:15:25it with a leader.

00:15:26And that leader's being very authoritarian and very, in some cases, just a complete a-hole,

00:15:33if you understand what I'm saying.

00:15:34So what happens is, as you're in this type of movement, you're dealing with complex trauma.

00:15:40And complex trauma manifests itself in triggers, so you have a response to the trauma.

00:15:47Well, interestingly enough, whenever there's a scandal that breaks, that is another aspect

00:15:53of complex trauma.

00:15:55You're just adding to these traumas.

00:15:56So now the group is starting to experience shock.

00:16:00They're in grief or betrayal.

00:16:03Somebody betrayed them.

00:16:04Somebody betrayed the leader.

00:16:06Your fear, what's going to happen to the group?

00:16:08We're going to all be going to hell now because our leader who was going to take us to heaven

00:16:12has now broke out into a scandal.

00:16:14Some people, embarrassment or, you know, there's so many different things.

00:16:18Identity loss.

00:16:19Your identity is wrapped up into the central figure's identity.

00:16:23You have a cult identity that is suppressing your authentic self.

00:16:27All of these things leading to a complex trauma.

00:16:30Well, the trauma response from the leader being exposed causes people to want to limit that

00:16:39trauma, limit that fear, that anxiety.

00:16:42And the best way to do it is just bring him back.

00:16:45We were happy when he was here.

00:16:46Let's bring him back.

00:16:47What they don't understand is they actually weren't.

00:16:49They were just suffering a complex trauma that they didn't fully understand.

00:16:54And that trauma became greater whenever the scandal broke.

00:16:59Interesting.

00:17:00Well, let me throw my perspective into the pot here because I think there's a number of angles

00:17:06to this, so here's a question.

00:17:10The people that are pushing the comeback, who are they without Mike?

00:17:17See, what I think's going on, to add to your piece, because I think that's a very, you've

00:17:24got some very valid points, is, is it about Mike or is it about them?

00:17:29Meaning that I know at least two family members, the two sisters that are the primary drivers

00:17:40right now.

00:17:42And based on their personalities, one is driving people with rage, right?

00:17:48In anger, you know, posting videos telling people, you know, if you don't support, you

00:17:56know, Mike and his return, you're standing against God and God's judgments against you,

00:18:01right?

00:18:01So there's this, you know, old time religion.

00:18:04I mean, you know, that old hellfire damnation.

00:18:07If you don't, bad things are going to happen.

00:18:10And then the other one is her person, she's a cheerleader.

00:18:14And it's like, she's been calling around and trying to get people to meet with Mike and,

00:18:19you know, and they're, you know, they've got a whole narrative now, right?

00:18:23That, you know, they've, they've got their message and their message basically is, is

00:18:28that the women that have brought these accusations are all people who are all women who are, have,

00:18:34are extremely troubled, have all kinds of psychological and mental problems who have completely

00:18:42exaggerated everything.

00:18:44And the famous phrase that one of them is using is that they've weaponized this, right?

00:18:52They've taken all this.

00:18:54So, so now they're coming at the women, right?

00:18:57They're, you know, they're, they're coming after the women, basically attacking them.

00:19:01But then, so they're, they're attacking the people that are against Mike, and then they're

00:19:05trying to recruit some of the older people.

00:19:08But the primary people that are driving the current return, which is rather bizarre to

00:19:16me, which is Misty Edwards and her family.

00:19:19And given the, I got to be very, very careful, legally, given what I know about Mike's relationship

00:19:28with Misty, and a lot of that, it's really bizarre.

00:19:34You know, I'm sitting there going, huh?

00:19:38Like, that family?

00:19:40Like, really?

00:19:41You know, it's like, that's a kind of a head scratcher for me.

00:19:44Because if you're talking about a, a vulnerability in terms of just attack, wow.

00:19:56It's like, that's, I don't know how to say this, but it's almost like, it's ballsy.

00:20:00It's like, you kidding me, you guys, like, really, you're going to do this, right?

00:20:07It's like, wow.

00:20:08And so, there's a, there's a lot out there, because here's what you begin to realize, is

00:20:17a whole lot of people got a reputation and resources, the two R's, reputation and resources,

00:20:26because of their proximity to Mike.

00:20:29And again, as you know, because you've seen this, because we both function outside the

00:20:33church world, it's not any different if you're in the arts and entertainment world, right?

00:20:39I lived in that world.

00:20:40I saw how all the people treated the, the musical superstar.

00:20:46I mean, it was, I couldn't, I only lasted a decade there.

00:20:49I couldn't deal with it.

00:20:50I mean, I'm talking about people who were groveling and, and, and I mean, it was like

00:20:57this person, this star was like, walked on water.

00:21:02It was like, almost like throwing rose petals down before they, wherever they walked, right?

00:21:06It was like, make way.

00:21:07It reminds me of when I was at, in Washington years ago at some big rally for pro or anti

00:21:16-abortion

00:21:16rally, and I hear this, this, these voices, make way, make way, make way for the man of

00:21:23God.

00:21:23And there's this massive crowd and I'm, I'm like, what?

00:21:27I thought it was a joke, right?

00:21:28And I look and there's these two huge guys pushing everybody out of the way so Ernest

00:21:33Ainslie could walk to the stage.

00:21:35And I was just like, oh my God, you gotta be, I mean, I was just sitting, I was so

00:21:41embarrassed.

00:21:42It's like, I just like walked away.

00:21:44Like, I do not, if this is the norm here now, is this is how these guys see themselves?

00:21:49Like, I don't want to be a part of this, but it's that same kind of thing.

00:21:53It's like, you know, I saw Rick Joyner made a comment, Mike, the church needs Mike Bickle

00:21:57to come back.

00:21:58Really?

00:22:00Like, like if Mike never came back, do you think God's not big enough to keep building

00:22:08what he's going to build without Mike?

00:22:09Like, why is Mike so important, right?

00:22:11But the reason why Mike is so important is because if Mike's important, then I can be

00:22:18important.

00:22:18And if I'm important, I can get money, right?

00:22:21I can be supported.

00:22:23And so there's, there's all kinds of people with all kinds of personal agendas that are

00:22:28behind all this right now.

00:22:30So this isn't so neat and tidy is what it appears on the surface.

00:22:34There's, there's all kinds of, um, hidden motives going on right now, right?

00:22:40About all this.

00:22:41Now, here's the good, the good news for some and for others will be sad news.

00:22:45Mike will never, ever get close to what he was ever.

00:22:48No one ever does.

00:22:50So it's, they're living in la la land, right?

00:22:54But the reason why they're in living in la la land is why, because the guy that they're

00:23:01all hoping can make a comeback has told them that God told him that this was the attack

00:23:08of the devil and that there's a glorious recovery coming that God's going to vindicate him and

00:23:14he's going to be stronger and greater and more powerful afterwards when this all comes

00:23:20out, right?

00:23:20So what are they doing?

00:23:22They're betting on the long haul here.

00:23:24Like they're all rallying around this thing and betting that what Mike's telling them is

00:23:30true, right?

00:23:32And that Mike's going to have this glorious restoration and God himself's going to do it.

00:23:39And, um, I've had friends that have recently gone and met with Mike who've walked out of

00:23:46those meetings going, Oh my God, like, Oh my God.

00:23:52Like they were just shocked at his whole kind of mental state.

00:23:57Right.

00:23:58Um, so I have a phrase for it.

00:24:00Um, it's, this is my Bob ism and, and, and it's, is Mike's in Don Coyote land.

00:24:06Yeah.

00:24:07So, and people who don't know who Don Coyote was, he was a, it's a, I think it's 1500 story

00:24:14about a Spanish Cagistador that gets old and sort of starts losing his mind and he's attacking

00:24:21windmills thinking they're giants, right?

00:24:23It's like, he goes into this delusional state.

00:24:26And so he sees himself as a great warrior, even though he's a feeble old man.

00:24:33And so he starts, and I feel like, again, this is a sense that I feel like we're in, in,

00:24:39in Don Coyote land right now.

00:24:41It's like, we're in that space in the church world, right?

00:24:44Where there's this guy who is under this illusion that I'm still this.

00:24:49And so now I'm going to go and it's like, Oh God, this is embarrassing.

00:24:53Right.

00:24:54And he's got a whole bunch of sycophants around him.

00:24:56They're going, go, go, go attack.

00:24:59Right.

00:24:59And because they all believe that, you know what Mike's telling them, but Jim Jones did

00:25:05that and they all ended up dead.

00:25:07So this is a little scary.

00:25:09You know what I mean?

00:25:09In a way it could be.

00:25:11Oh yeah.

00:25:12You know, without even knowing it, you have mentioned the bridge between the two.

00:25:17There's the aspect of what happens within the group.

00:25:19Then there's the aspect of the leader wanting to get back into that story.

00:25:24It's really, it's about the story.

00:25:26And that's, I think the key that when you're in this type of movement for a long period of

00:25:32time, you don't recognize how powerful the story is.

00:25:35So that's one thing that Branhamism has in common with IHOPKC, but not just IHOPKC, each

00:25:42of the individuals in it.

00:25:43Think about Paul Kane.

00:25:45He's got a backstory.

00:25:46I was this child who never would have made it had not this backstory happened.

00:25:51Mike Bickle, we've got this prophetic history that would not have happened had not the prophetic

00:25:55history happened.

00:25:56None of it would exist without the story.

00:25:59Branham had his life story.

00:26:00And I could quote it to the T because I grew up here.

00:26:03Well, not to butt in here, but just to make your point, the I am special, that's what

00:26:09I call it.

00:26:10I am special.

00:26:11That's what you're talking about, right?

00:26:12They all have that same, I'm special.

00:26:14Exactly.

00:26:15We have in the past talked about it, but we use the word mythology because you and I

00:26:19understand this.

00:26:20Yeah.

00:26:20But to people who aren't history, fascinated with history like I am, what does that even

00:26:25mean?

00:26:25Well, every religion, for it to be a stable, not stable, for it to be a religion that continues

00:26:32to develop and grow, it has to have a mythology.

00:26:35It doesn't matter if you're Christian, you've got the Christian, I know people will be angered

00:26:40by this, but it's called the Christian mythology.

00:26:41This is the thing that led you to believe in Christ.

00:26:45Well, because these groups are pseudo-Christian groups, they have their own mythologies.

00:26:51The mythology isn't the one that follows Christ, it's the one that follows the leader.

00:26:55So, as you develop your mythology, the fear, the complex trauma that I talked about, one

00:27:02of the fears is, oh my gosh, we're going to lose our mythology.

00:27:05That really is one of the hits that happens.

00:27:08Now, broaden the scope because each group's mythology has become somewhat of a backstory or

00:27:17a side story to another mythology in the New Apostolic Reformation.

00:27:21So, you talk about Morningstar's mythology is somewhat intertwined with IHOPKC.

00:27:26They have to have Mike Bickle come back because now their mythology is at risk.

00:27:30So, as this happens, as the leader falls, with the leader falling is their mythology falling

00:27:37and everybody's scared.

00:27:38What are we going to do?

00:27:39What's going to happen?

00:27:40All comes down to that.

00:27:41Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of

00:27:46modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe

00:27:52movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?

00:27:55You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

00:28:00william-branham.org.

00:28:02On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles

00:28:08Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio,

00:28:14and digital versions of each book.

00:28:16You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

00:28:22movements.

00:28:23If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the

00:28:28Contribute button at the top.

00:28:29And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening

00:28:35to or watching.

00:28:36On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:28:41Well, you noticed in your world, I would imagine, which is this, is you're going to be

00:28:46You attack William Branham, and then a whole bunch of guys attack you, even though you

00:28:51never mention their name, right?

00:28:53But they attack you.

00:28:54Why?

00:28:55It's like, I never called you out.

00:28:57I never even, your name isn't even in any, why are they attacking you?

00:29:03Because their reputation and their resources are dependent on their relationship to Branham,

00:29:11live or dead.

00:29:12See, this is where it gets weird, right?

00:29:14And I don't think people sometimes, unless you're older and wiser like we are, realize

00:29:18really what's going on here and why this happens, right?

00:29:22Again, it's like, it's not just one addict.

00:29:26It's a whole congregation of addicts and a whole bunch of people close to the, you know,

00:29:33the main person that all are desperately hanging on.

00:29:36I mean, to take this even to a bigger scale, this is how movements become denominations,

00:29:44right?

00:29:45So you get these guys that, the Wesleys, right?

00:29:50The John Knoxes, like all these guys that were evangelists and whatever.

00:29:54Well, the denominations happen after they die, right?

00:29:59Why?

00:30:00Because all the people who became somebody because of this particular person's gift or talent

00:30:07are trying to preserve it.

00:30:10They're trying to preserve their reputation and their resources.

00:30:14So they institutionalize it.

00:30:17And then, to your point, they create the mythology, right?

00:30:21Or they perpetuate the mythology and it gets written down and it gets in books and it becomes

00:30:27part of your confirmation class and, right?

00:30:30And you keep, right?

00:30:31And it's all about preserving, you know, it's like, I call them museums.

00:30:36I mean, denominations are museums, right?

00:30:39I think I told you the story.

00:30:40I went to Anglis Temple, you know, because I wanted to see it.

00:30:44And I was shocked because it was kind of, what was it?

00:30:482000?

00:30:482000, no, no, sorry.

00:30:50It would have been 94 I went.

00:30:53And there's all of these glass cases with crutches and braces from the 1920s and 1930s, right?

00:31:03And it was like all this stuff on the wall.

00:31:05And I was like, wait a minute, am I in a church or am I in a museum here?

00:31:10One of the things that people ask me is, how could a group attack somebody who was victimized

00:31:16by the leader?

00:31:18And I had a, one of the conversations that I had recently, we were talking about the

00:31:23hero epic, which kind of relates to what we're talking about here.

00:31:27But I'm going to go a little bit deeper with the hero epic because as we talked about, there's

00:31:32a mythology, the group has the mythology, the mythology becomes the core theme of the

00:31:37group.

00:31:37Otherwise, you would just go down to another Christian church, another denomination.

00:31:40But as you mentioned, some of those have their own background mythologies.

00:31:45That's really how all of this develops.

00:31:48But in the complex trauma that exists, whenever a group is starting to be feel threatened that

00:31:55their mythology may be at risk.

00:31:57The biggest obstacle to the risk of the fall of the mythology is the victim who steps forward.

00:32:04So instantly, every person who's part of that mythology, now that person who's victimized

00:32:11becomes part of the epic mythology, the story that's told.

00:32:15But they become the villain of the story, not the hero.

00:32:18So the hero is the actual person who victimized whoever was the victim of the group.

00:32:25But because of this complex trauma, the attack goes towards the victim.

00:32:30And in every circle of life that's non-religious, this is unheard of.

00:32:34You would never, if you were, if you had a job and you watched a boss do something to

00:32:39a co-worker, you would instantly be angry at the boss, not angry at the co-worker.

00:32:43But you don't have a mythology about your workplace.

00:32:46You do have a mythology when you're in a destructive cult.

00:32:50And that really is the key to understanding the bridge between how the leadership has the

00:32:57need to come back and how the people have a need for the leader to come back.

00:33:01Because now, as the hero of the epic, you have the mindset, well, I must return.

00:33:07If I don't return, what happens to our mythology?

00:33:09What happens to the people?

00:33:11I've told them that they would go to heaven if they continued to believe what I told them.

00:33:16If I don't come back, are they still going to heaven?

00:33:19You understand, there's this weird need to be the hero because you feel like the burden

00:33:25of the salvation of every single person in your group is on your shoulders.

00:33:30And in Christianity, that's not how that's supposed to work.

00:33:33Well, and then you have a whole group of people that need you to be the hero.

00:33:37And that's where, so it's kind of interesting because I've had some people ask me how I feel

00:33:43right now about what's going on.

00:33:46And I mean, I don't want to sound hard-hearted, but part of me doesn't even care.

00:33:51It's like, it's not my world.

00:33:53You know what I mean?

00:33:53It doesn't affect me.

00:33:55But there's a human, empathetic, compassionate side that I have for people.

00:34:03And so one of the questions, they're like, why are you not angry?

00:34:09Like, aren't you, right?

00:34:10And that's not, I'm not an angry person.

00:34:12So my first instinct isn't to be angry at Mike or whatever.

00:34:19Actually, how I feel right now is sad.

00:34:23And here's why.

00:34:24Anyway, I feel sad for the people that are driving this because I realize how broken their

00:34:33soul is and how pathetic this really is.

00:34:36You know what I'm saying?

00:34:37Like, if you look at this, not from the top down, but from the bottom up, you realize there's

00:34:44a whole group of really sadly broken, misfit people that are so desperate for Mike to return

00:34:55so that they can be something, so they can feel good about them, right?

00:35:00It's sad.

00:35:01It's very sad, right?

00:35:04And that's where my heart goes.

00:35:06And I feel bad.

00:35:07I just feel bad.

00:35:09It's just like, this is embarrassing.

00:35:11You know what I mean?

00:35:12And it's like, oh, gosh, this is so embarrassing.

00:35:15And so if you're coming at it from a human perspective or even somebody that's halfway

00:35:21discerning and you see what's really driving all this, it's kind of like, oh, God, no,

00:35:27please don't do this.

00:35:28Don't, don't.

00:35:29This is embarrassing.

00:35:30The other side of this, which is a little dark and it's going to sound very macabre,

00:35:35and again, this is another Bobism, but we have such a thing in the church world called

00:35:39spiritual cannibalism.

00:35:42We eat our own.

00:35:45And I am seeing, right?

00:35:48And why is that?

00:35:50I mean, if you think about it, why is that?

00:35:53You know, everybody's heard the downer party story, you know, about eating, whatever.

00:35:57But what people, again, I'm sorry if I'm putting on my psychology hat here, but our most basic

00:36:05instinct, our strongest instinct is survival.

00:36:09It always has been.

00:36:11And if people could understand that, they would have a, if you could put on that set of glasses

00:36:19when you look at history, it would explain a whole lot about why things happened and what

00:36:25was driving it.

00:36:26And what's odd about it is, is that almost all of the innovation in human history was driven

00:36:34by this need to survive.

00:36:38Whether it's overcoming other humans or overcoming nature, right?

00:36:43But it's all driven by this need to survive.

00:36:47Christians are not immune to this.

00:36:49We don't get a free pass.

00:36:50Like, we are just as much driven by survival.

00:36:54And we, if we get desperate enough, which this little group of people is, some of them, not

00:37:02all, but some of the family, direct family members are, they're so desperate, right?

00:37:06Because they are nothing without Mike.

00:37:09So they've, they're back, they're like the downer party right now.

00:37:13They are trapped in the mountains.

00:37:15And so, off we're coming the white gloves, off we're coming, you know, the niceties, brother,

00:37:25sister, let's love one another, and you're seeing it, right?

00:37:30I mean, you just got to listen to Lisa's, you know, videos, and you're just like, hey,

00:37:35right, well, what is that, right?

00:37:37Why is she cannibalizing people?

00:37:39Like, why is she eating them, eating people up, right?

00:37:41Because they're desperate.

00:37:43They're desperate.

00:37:43They're locked in somewhere, and the only way out is to fight.

00:37:49Where this gets even more interesting is that's the family DNA.

00:37:54Their dad was a fighter.

00:37:56They've all been fighters.

00:37:57They grew up in a very rough part of Kansas City, you know what I mean?

00:38:03And in the Bickle world, the best defense is always an offense.

00:38:08They will overwhelm you, right?

00:38:11Even if they're wrong, they believe if I can keep at it, I will outlast you.

00:38:17I will outwork you.

00:38:19I will keep attacking you until you eventually yield.

00:38:24And so, none of this is a surprise to me, and that's what they'll do.

00:38:29They'll just keep attacking, and you just got to know that's their MO, and they don't know

00:38:35any other way.

00:38:36So, it's all very, I mean, it sounds weird, but it's all very natural.

00:38:40Like, everything that I'm seeing, I'm like, of course, this is them.

00:38:46You know, they hate me, because I see right through it.

00:38:49Like, I've been through this, you know, since the mid-70s.

00:38:54So, it's like, I know this all too well.

00:38:57Even in groups that aren't of that background mentality, though, you're in a movement that

00:39:02is teaching you that the leader is gifted spiritually in one way or another.

00:39:07Branham, he was gifted spiritually because he could peer into your very soul, brother and

00:39:11sister, regardless of all the information that was given him to allow him to peer into

00:39:16your soul.

00:39:17These leaders have convinced the bodies of people that they have a direct communication

00:39:23with God, that they have a gift that the ordinary average person in the pews does not

00:39:29have.

00:39:30So, what happens is the people in the pews, they mistake these so-called gifts as character,

00:39:36and internally, their mind is wrestling.

00:39:38Like, I feel sorry for the people you've mentioned, because their mind is wrestling

00:39:42with the fact that if this person truly has this communication with God, then that is his

00:39:50character.

00:39:50That's the character of a man who's following God.

00:39:53These other aspects, yes, they're of his character, but they'll, what's the one, they

00:39:57always go to David.

00:39:58They go to David.

00:39:58David fell.

00:39:59David sinned.

00:40:00David was doing all kinds of bad things.

00:40:03Can't our leader do bad too?

00:40:05And they can't really separate the good and the bad, because they've been indoctrinated

00:40:09to believe this divine connection.

00:40:12So, it really doesn't matter what the leader does.

00:40:15They, the people will always respect him, but the leader, because he's also convinced

00:40:20them of this, the need to come back and to show them that they have that divine connection,

00:40:26without that, they've really lost everything.

00:40:29That's the sad truth of it.

00:40:30Yes, the leader fell, yes, they did some very bad things, but in a normal Christian

00:40:36church, there is room for repentance of a leader, not restoration as a leader, but

00:40:42repentance, and they can get back into the body, they can be your brother, your sister,

00:40:46just as before.

00:40:48But in these groups, it's not like that.

00:40:50They cut people off, very, very strongly cut them off.

00:40:54If you, if you don't believe, or if you, if you fall to sin, and you're not a leader,

00:40:59you're instantly cut off.

00:41:00You can never come back in some cases.

00:41:03But the leadership has built that platform where that exists.

00:41:07Now, for them to have any sort of face value left, for them to have any esteem left, they

00:41:13have to be back into the leadership position.

00:41:16Otherwise, they've got nothing.

00:41:17Well, interestingly, in my book, I list my reasons why Mike should come back, and none

00:41:23of them have to do with anything sexual.

00:41:26Because at the point, at that point, I didn't feel that was my story to tell.

00:41:31I felt like Deborah and those two needed to tell their story, but so did all the other

00:41:36women if they wanted to.

00:41:37I shouldn't be telling their story.

00:41:39What I listed in my book is the reason why Mike should not come back.

00:41:44Um, I didn't think, I didn't say he shouldn't come back to ministry.

00:41:48What I said was he should not come back to leading others.

00:41:52Mike wanted to have a prayer life, write books, do that kind of thing.

00:41:58You know, if he repented, which he still hasn't, and I understand why.

00:42:02You know, there's legal issues here.

00:42:05Um, what's, you know, everybody keeps saying Mike hasn't repented.

00:42:08Well, they don't fully understand that if he comes out with a full confession, then that

00:42:13can show up in court.

00:42:15It's like, see, he's already admitted guilt, right?

00:42:17So he's not, you know, he's been advised from lawyers not to admit guilt.

00:42:22So this is the problem.

00:42:23It's, it's two kingdoms colliding, right?

00:42:26This world in heaven, you know, heaven says, repent and confess your sins.

00:42:29And the legal system says, don't you dare.

00:42:33So this is, they're at cross purposes right now.

00:42:36But, um, nonetheless, uh, my reason is, is Mike's persona and years and years and years

00:42:48of having firsthand knowledge about how he operates.

00:42:52I watched thousands of people pack up their lives and leave them and move to Kansas City

00:43:00under the auspices of Mike making promises that he never fulfilled.

00:43:06Mike, Mike cannot help but manipulate people.

00:43:11He can't help but, I mean, we're just pulling the clothes off again.

00:43:17He just lies.

00:43:18You know, we can get all fancy.

00:43:20Oh, well, he embellishes.

00:43:21It's a white lie, right?

00:43:23The problem that, that people don't realize is people make life changing decisions based

00:43:30on those embellishments and those white lies.

00:43:33I, you know, I have told people this for years.

00:43:37Here was my relationship with Mike.

00:43:40He would create the messes and I'd have to clean it up.

00:43:44And I can tell you thousands of cleanup messes.

00:43:48And the reason was, is people showed up because we went to lunch, they went to lunch with Mike

00:43:55and Mike sat there and told him all the glory stories and all the prophetic stuff and you've

00:44:00got a place and I'm sure we can put you on staff and all this kind of stuff.

00:44:04And then they showed up and he was like, didn't even know him.

00:44:07And I mean, it just crushed people.

00:44:09I mean, he does not have the capacity to relate to you and see you as a unique human being.

00:44:21You are a commodity.

00:44:22And this gets back to what I said in the book.

00:44:25He's a sociopath, you know.

00:44:28Now, there's places where that's a great advantage.

00:44:32And Harvard Business School did a whole study about this.

00:44:36Well, if you're the CEO of a Fortune 500 company, being a narcissist and a sociopath is actually

00:44:42a great asset for big things, right?

00:44:46So a lot of your mega preachers have the same psychological profile.

00:44:53They're sociopaths, right?

00:44:55That's why in the pulpit, they communicate with you like you're their best friend, like

00:45:00you're sitting in the pew and you think, oh my God, he sees me.

00:45:03And then you talk to them after they get out of the pulpit and they're ice cold.

00:45:08They have no time for you.

00:45:10And people get confused by that, right?

00:45:13That's normal for them.

00:45:15That's, you know, I mean, Ted Bundy was that guy, right?

00:45:19Only he took it to a whole nother level and he'd kill you, you know.

00:45:23And so that's my point here is, is that I don't think Mike has the psychological profile.

00:45:32He isn't capable.

00:45:33That's why I also think he's on the spectrum.

00:45:35I think Mike's Asperger's.

00:45:37There's, there's a disconnect there when it comes to people.

00:45:40He sees them as commodities.

00:45:42Now, how can I say that?

00:45:45I have 40 years of watching this.

00:45:47I have cleaned up more broken, disillusioned, hurting people than you can imagine.

00:45:53And of course, you know, the people that are all making excuses for Mike haven't lived in my world.

00:46:00And that's where I could get really angry because you want to go toe-to-toe with me?

00:46:04I will give you a litany of, of case after case after case of broken lives that Mike destroyed people.

00:46:15Mike destroyed far more people than he helped.

00:46:18And people do not understand that.

00:46:21Why?

00:46:21Because the, where do the walking wounded go?

00:46:25What happens when an animal, right?

00:46:27They, like animals, right?

00:46:28They go in their cave and they hide.

00:46:31And there's people all over the world that have gone into their cave and are hiding.

00:46:36And I know even after the book came out, I got all the calls, right?

00:46:39Oh, I'm so glad you said this.

00:46:41Actually, this is healing for me.

00:46:43Thank you for sharing this.

00:46:45I've been carrying this pain for decades, right?

00:46:49I was one of the guys that was, and, you know, I think I've mentioned this to you before.

00:46:54I can go back to 1976 when we first met, when we first started working together.

00:46:59I can't find anybody that worked with Mike that still respects him.

00:47:03I mean, that in itself, that one statement is enough to disqualify anyone, right?

00:47:10I mean, think about in anything you do, football, baseball, business, right?

00:47:15We all have relationships that go back for decades of people that respect us.

00:47:22Not him.

00:47:23That's scary.

00:47:24You know, there's, we've talked about the leader, the central figure, and the people in the pew.

00:47:30But there's another aspect of this that you get, I get, and not many other people do, because if you,

00:47:36unless you've been in the business world and have been on the business side of a church, you don't really

00:47:42think of it like this.

00:47:43But for a church to operate, for it to keep its doors open, it must run as a business.

00:47:49Yes, that's right.

00:47:49And there's this weird problem that exists.

00:47:52So you have a leader who's the head of this business, he's the CEO of the business, the business that

00:47:57is the church.

00:47:59When the business leadership falls, because of the structure they've built and the way that they've built it, you can't

00:48:06just replace him with another CEO.

00:48:07He is the church.

00:48:09He literally is the church.

00:48:11So at that point, when the leadership falls, now what about every board member who helped elect him into that

00:48:18position?

00:48:18If he falls, they lose face, because he's fallen.

00:48:23I chose the wrong person.

00:48:24What about the staff who built their entire careers around him?

00:48:28You've got the IHOP University and whatnot.

00:48:30These people, their whole careers would be nothing without the leadership's mythology, right?

00:48:35You've got all of the friends who defended him in the scandal.

00:48:39Well, they lose all of their face to their peers because they defended the wrong side of it, if Mike

00:48:45Bickle's in the wrong.

00:48:46And not just Mike Bickle, any of these guys, right?

00:48:50But behind the scenes.

00:48:52So think outside the building.

00:48:54Yeah, Sam Storms is doing that right now.

00:48:56Like he's traveling the country, right, trying to rehabilitate his reputation.

00:49:01Oh, there you go.

00:49:02Yeah, I've got his book.

00:49:04You've got donors who invest into the church and the church growth.

00:49:09What about all the money they've invested?

00:49:11Suddenly their money was for nothing.

00:49:13It's wasted.

00:49:14So you've got all of these categories of people that aren't really having anything to do with the religious side,

00:49:19but in the operational side.

00:49:22And they start to lose face.

00:49:23So they have to have him back.

00:49:25Because if he doesn't come back, well, all of this was for nothing.

00:49:29What have we done?

00:49:30We've wasted all this time, right?

00:49:32Again, I have to be very, very careful here.

00:49:34Because as a counselor, I have certain legal things that I got.

00:49:39So no names.

00:49:40But I can tell you that I have large donors, guys that are very wealthy, that have given to Mike

00:49:48through KCF and IHOP right now that are very vexed, going,

00:49:54I can't believe I can't believe I did that.

00:49:57Like, I funded this.

00:49:59And the guilt.

00:50:01Well, not only, but there are two sides of it.

00:50:04On the one hand, as a business person, they're going, oh, my God, I just put money down the rabbit

00:50:10hole, right?

00:50:11It's like I gave hundreds of thousands.

00:50:14Or I've given millions of dollars to Mike over the years, and I got nothing.

00:50:18Like, I got zero return on my investment, right?

00:50:22So from that side, they're free.

00:50:23But then there's this guilt, like terrible guilt.

00:50:27Like, oh, my God, I helped contribute to this.

00:50:31It is hard.

00:50:32And for me, it's hard because I can relate to almost every single aspect of that.

00:50:37I've helped donate to a church and help it grow.

00:50:40I've helped the leadership in the music worship of a church.

00:50:45I have helped different aspects of the church.

00:50:48I've had family who was running at the head of the church.

00:50:51So I get every single piece of this.

00:50:54And the interesting part for me is I feel sorry for everyone, even some of the people who, I will

00:51:01admit, did some very bad things.

00:51:02But I know them as a person.

00:51:04I know that as a human, we all have flaws.

00:51:08I do not think that some of the people who did some of the bad things that I remember should

00:51:13ever be in leadership.

00:51:14But I do believe they should be restored.

00:51:16I think we just have to separate what restoration means from what they're trying to tell you that it means.

00:51:22And this type of group, restoration, simply means you get everything back.

00:51:26You just walk back on stage like it never happened.

00:51:29But that's not how it works in Christianity.

00:51:31You can be restored, but you can't be put into a position where something similar might happen again in the

00:51:37future.

00:51:38Well, I can hear somebody that's watching this now going, well, what do you tell them, Bob?

00:51:45I'm sorry.

00:51:46I had a little voice going off in my head.

00:51:47What do you tell them?

00:51:48So this is what I tell them.

00:51:49Thank goodness that God evaluates us based on the motive of our hearts.

00:51:57Yeah.

00:51:58You know, intent is a big thing in God's economy, right?

00:52:04So it doesn't necessarily excuse our lack of wisdom.

00:52:08But God knows, God knows that your heart was in the right place.

00:52:15You saw something.

00:52:16You thought it was him.

00:52:18You wanted to put your life and your resources and everything and invest it into something that you thought was

00:52:25wholesome and good.

00:52:26It didn't turn out that way.

00:52:28Lesson learned.

00:52:29You know, ouch.

00:52:31You know, but get up, clean yourself off, put a Band-Aid on it and keep moving.

00:52:36But, you know, don't get, you know, don't let this take you down because there's some people that are really

00:52:43struggling right now, feeling guilty, like, oh, my God, I contributed to this.

00:52:47And it's like, sorry, you know, it's just, you're talking, like, that's what I was telling.

00:52:53Hey, you're preaching to the choir here.

00:52:55I was the guy that built all this for Mike.

00:52:58Well, not IHOP, but KCF.

00:53:01Like, I ran everything.

00:53:03You know what I mean?

00:53:04So I've had to go through my own things, you know what I mean, where it's like, okay, you know,

00:53:11you know, and it's like, I wish, I wish, I wish I know, I wish I knew then what I

00:53:16know now, right?

00:53:18Hindsight, you know, looking in the rearview mirror of life is sometimes a really wonderful experience.

00:53:24And sometimes it's like, oh, God, no, that was, that's embarrassing.

00:53:28Like, I can't believe I did that, you know?

00:53:30It's like, oh, gosh.

00:53:32So if you're one of those people, just realize, I think, you know, based on my understanding of Jesus and

00:53:39the way he interacted with people, he never really seemed to get hammer hard on people for their mistakes.

00:53:48What he, what mattered to him was your motive.

00:53:52And where I take this is that he came after the religious leaders who, on the surface, seemed like they

00:53:58were doing everything right.

00:54:00Like, he's attacking the guys that look like they're doing everything right, and he's hugging and healing everyone that's doing

00:54:06it wrong.

00:54:07You know, so, you know, it's like what it's called, the upside world, upside down world of Jesus, right?

00:54:13It's like he just doesn't, didn't see things.

00:54:16So, you know, for all of you that may be listening that were a part of the IHOP, KCF world

00:54:22that gave your life there, take, you know, see the good in it, because there were.

00:54:27I mean, I got to be honest with you, some of the most precious relationships that I have in my

00:54:32life now are because of Kansas City Fellowship.

00:54:35Like, we survived, like, we made it through.

00:54:38We made it through the, you know, we're grandparents now.

00:54:40We're old people, you know, and we can go, we can look at it and go, gosh darn, I was

00:54:46so dumb.

00:54:49I can't believe, you know, but I mean, you know, as I said, I always tell young couples, you know,

00:54:55when they're getting married, I go, I hope you understand something here.

00:54:58You do realize that marriage is like a learning process.

00:55:03Like, like, you might have gone to marriage counseling here, but, you know, that's like the ABCs, you know, this

00:55:09is so primary.

00:55:11The truth of it is, being married and being a parent are two avenues that God's instilled in human life

00:55:19to teach us how to mature.

00:55:22And it's a process.

00:55:23And you don't, you know, it's like, and how do I know that?

00:55:27Because if it wasn't, we'd be having kids at 70.

00:55:33We'd be getting married at 70, like when we knew stuff, but we don't.

00:55:38So, guess what?

00:55:40He's instilled in these, created these processes that start when we're immature.

00:55:46So, the whole reason we get married and have kids is to grow up and mature.

00:55:52And I just posted something on Facebook the other day about that, right?

00:55:56Maturity comes from experience, not age, right?

00:56:01I know a lot of really old people that are really stupid and naive.

00:56:05And I know a lot of people that may and don't even have a college education and are super wise

00:56:11and very mature because life teaches us.

00:56:14So, take these lessons we've all learned, painful or not, disillusioning or not, and just realize it's, think of all

00:56:22the good that's come out of it, you know?

00:56:23Darrell Bock Well, for me, I think the summarization of this is that if there is a psychological need for

00:56:31a central figure to return, it's exposing the deeper problem.

00:56:35Think about Christianity.

00:56:38Within Christianity, if somebody were to take Jesus Christ out of the picture, say Jesus Christ did something bad, he's

00:56:44no longer in our picture, well, then you're no longer Christian, right?

00:56:48That's – you're following some other religion.

00:56:50Well, in a denominational church that doesn't have a central figure, if you take the pastor out, because your focus

00:56:57is on Christ, you're just replaced with another pastor.

00:56:59There's no need for this return.

00:57:01But in a group that's not focused on Christ, then you are in a situation where the leadership is your

00:57:08focus.

00:57:08When you take them out, you've really lost the complete composure of your group.

00:57:13It doesn't – the structure's no longer there without that central figure.

00:57:16So, for me, if there's a need for a person to return that is that strong, you really have to

00:57:24take a step back and ask, is this really a Christian church that I'm in, or am I in something

00:57:28that's entirely different?

00:57:29And I know that's hard for a lot of people to think through, but that is the truth.

00:57:34It's my observation that as people get older in their faith, they don't need to go to church as much.

00:57:43They're not looking for that heroic superstar leader anymore.

00:57:49It's like I'm comfortable in my own skin.

00:57:52I know who I am.

00:57:54I know what my relationship with God looks like.

00:57:57I'm good.

00:57:58It seems like the vulnerability to need a father figure, a leader, somebody extraordinary, is something that – and again,

00:58:13I'm stereotyping here because I know – well, I'm not that guy.

00:58:16But I'm just saying, typically, it's younger generations.

00:58:20It's people that are younger that need it.

00:58:24You see where I'm going with this?

00:58:26It's like they need Mike to come back.

00:58:31Everybody – so the reason I'm saying this is even in my conversations locally here with my generation, and it's

00:58:40like, well, what do you think about Mike coming back?

00:58:42You know what they all do?

00:58:43Roll their eyes and move on.

00:58:45They don't care.

00:58:46You know what I mean?

00:58:46It's like – it's so funny because it's a big deal to people.

00:58:51But who's it a big deal to?

00:58:53It's like – most of my generation is like, you know what?

00:58:56I really don't care.

00:58:58Mike Bickle's irrelevant in my life, right?

00:59:01He's like, I don't care.

00:59:03I'm good, thanks.

00:59:04You know?

00:59:04I know who I am.

00:59:06I don't need – I mean, but if it's not just Mike, it's any of these guys.

00:59:11You know what I mean?

00:59:12It's like they just – they don't need it.

00:59:14They're good.

00:59:15They've got their own walk with God.

00:59:17You know what I mean?

00:59:18It's like they don't need – you know, it's like I've been doing this for so long.

00:59:21And it's like, I know.

00:59:23And so I think it's a particularly – a particular vulnerability to younger generations as well.

00:59:33But a lot of the people that are driving this with Mike has been wannabes, meaning they had something, they

00:59:42lost it, and now they want to be it again.

00:59:45Absolutely.

00:59:45Well, thank you so much for doing this.

00:59:47I enjoy having these conversations with you, and hopefully by unpacking this, you know, the people that are listening can

00:59:54identify with what we're talking about in their own frame of reference and go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's all.

01:00:00Wow, that – you've just given me words for what I've been feeling.

01:00:03I hear that a lot.

01:00:04You guys – you guys are actually unpacking this, and now you've given me a term for what it is

01:00:10that I've been sensing, but I never really could get my brain around what it was.

01:00:15So hopefully we're being helpful.

01:00:18Absolutely.

01:00:19Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

01:00:23You can find us at william-branum.org.

01:00:25For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to

01:00:31the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:01:03Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:01:33Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

01:01:39Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

01:01:40Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

01:01:41Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

01:01:42Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

When A Church Cannot Survive Without Its Leader | Podcast Episode 619

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