Former NAR Insiders Expose the System From the Inside | Podcast Episode 625 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John talks with Vincent and Judith Desjardins about their journey through the Jesus Movement, shepherding structures, Word of Faith circles, prophetic networks, and later New Apostolic Reformation influences. They describe how end-times excitement, promises of spiritual significance, and teachings on authority drew them into controlling ministries that reshaped family life, church culture, and their understanding of Christian faith.  Together they explore themes including fear-based leadership, healing culture, platform-building, prophetic celebrity, Brian Simmons, Lance Wallnau, Lou Engle, Todd Bentley, and the recurring pattern of rebranded revival movements. The conversation also examines how charisma, ambition, and extra-biblical claims can flourish where there is little accountability, while offering encouragement to listeners processing similar experiences.  00:00 Introduction 01:28 End-Times Prophecy, The Late Great Planet Earth, And The Jesus People Era 06:31 The First Prophetic Word And The Church Of Submission 13:00 Autism, Heavy-Handed Discipline, And Spiritual Blame 18:18 Polygamy, Branhamism, And A Troubling Church Scandal 21:19 Word Of Faith, Church Businesses, And The PTL Dream 27:25 Religious Pyramid Schemes And Financial Abuse 29:12 Adultery, Cover-Up Culture, And A Church Collapse 35:17 Recovery Churches, Inner Healing, And Lance Wallnau 40:18 Bill Hamon, Joel's Army, And The Nameless Faceless Generation 41:41 Lou Engle, Bob Jones, Stadium Events, And The Billion Soul Harvest 43:21 Brian Simmons, The Passion Translation, And False Credentials 49:02 Brian Simmons, Manifest Sons Of God, And The Return Of Christ 51:44 Todd Bentley, Congo, Healing Claims, And Crowd Manipulation 55:01 Mind Control, Critical Thinking, And Finding Freedom 57:38 Closing Reflections And Future Topics ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:40at william-branham.org.

00:42And with me, I have my very special guests, Vincent and Judith Desjardins.

00:47Vincent, Judith, thank you so much for joining me.

00:50I was reading through your email just again this morning, which I've actually read it a

00:55few times because you have been in so many different entanglements of the spiderweb of

01:02connections that people today call the New Apostolic Reformation, but it's literally all

01:07of these apostolic networks that have joined to form this weird concoction of scripture

01:12and doctrine.

01:14And anyway, I'm excited to talk through some of these trails that you've gone down because

01:19they are very closely aligned to the trails I'm researching.

01:23Yes.

01:24Maybe if you could start and just tell everybody a little bit about yourselves.

01:27Thank you very much.

01:29Thank you for the opportunity to share.

01:30I will primarily be the one talking today, but my husband of 51 years is here next to

01:36me because he's been with me on the whole journey just about of the spiderweb.

01:42We met when we were 13 years old in junior high, we band geeks, we played in the band

01:48together and that's how we got to know each other.

01:51We were friends in high school.

01:53Both of us came from different towns, had different backgrounds.

01:56He was Catholic, I was Protestant.

01:59And when we got together in high school and began to talk about religion, the biggest thing

02:04was the late great planet Earth.

02:06And that's where we came into the type of movements that I will describe.

02:11So around the time when Israel took back Jerusalem in 1967, both me and my husband hadn't quite

02:21met yet, but we were both very interested in end times and the scenario of Israel without

02:27really knowing where that came from, but just an interest in general in the prophecies of

02:33the Bible.

02:34So when we read the late great planet Earth and all the kids in our high school started talking

02:40about it, we were like super excited.

02:43We realized, we said the Bible is true.

02:45Prophetic words are coming to pass in our time.

02:49And this means it's the end of days.

02:52This means that we are going to be the generation that sees Jesus return.

02:57So during that time, we got so excited about it that we became Jesus freaks, basically.

03:04And we, as many people in those times decided, we said, we don't need to go to college.

03:11We don't need to have a high-powered career where we can make money because Jesus is going

03:17to come before we get old.

03:18Well, here we are and we're old and Jesus didn't come back.

03:22So during that time, the seeds were formed of the end times and of the significance of

03:31Israel returning to the land and that Bible prophecy was of higher importance than maybe

03:39the basic gospel message, than what the Bible talks about, how to live a Christian life.

03:44It was prophecy that took us in and brought us in and started us on a journey of trying

03:51to lead others to Christ through talking about prophecy.

03:54So we were always interested in prophecy.

03:58We also had the idea, as most people did at that time, that anyone over 30, you couldn't

04:05trust and that you couldn't trust denominational Christianity, that it was dead, dried up.

04:12So we didn't hear the term old wineskin yet, but we just knew it because we were young and

04:18we didn't like the traditional churches we came from and the way we were brought up.

04:23So we decided very early on that our generation could remake the church, that we could leave

04:31the denominations and start doing our own thing with Jesus because it was Jesus that mattered.

04:38And back in those days, it was really interesting, him being Catholic and me being Protestant.

04:44Catholics and Protestants got together.

04:46A priest came to my church once, my congregational church, and did a healing service.

04:52You know, it was a time when everyone was saying, we don't need that.

04:56What we need is Jesus.

04:57What we need is the Holy Spirit.

04:58My husband got filled with the Holy Spirit in a Catholic charismatic group at the Newman

05:05Center at UMass, where the kids were all getting excited about God.

05:10So that was the journey that we were on as young people.

05:15We were just friends in high school.

05:18Two years later, we got married and we started our family.

05:22So when we were in this place of being very young, raising a family, having to make a living,

05:30thinking Jesus is coming and he's preaching to people while working in a woolen mill, and

05:36he's trying to bring home a meager paycheck.

05:39It was a stressful time.

05:41And we began to have stress in our life and we needed some kind of direction.

05:47Like what he did is he tried to find a church we could go to and the Catholic church didn't

05:56receive us because he tried to get the priest born again and that didn't work at all.

06:02He tried to get the priest to acknowledge that what we were saying was true about the last

06:08days.

06:09He didn't know what we were talking about.

06:10We went to some other denominational churches.

06:13They didn't know what we were talking about.

06:14So we started having a Bible study in our home and again, we were trying to build the

06:20kingdom all by ourselves and we kind of had a little bit of a fall.

06:24We just kind of emotionally got burnt out at this time.

06:29So while my husband was kind of seeking and going through some turmoil like this, he got

06:37a ticket to go to a full gospel businessman's meeting in a city nearby.

06:42So he took the ticket and he went to the meeting.

06:46I don't know who did the meeting or what they did, but when he got there, a man came up

06:51to

06:52him who had a prophetic word for him, which has never really happened in such a way before.

06:57A complete stranger came up to him and said something like, you think you're at an end,

07:04but the Lord has sent me to you to tell you I'm going to stay with you and I'm going

07:07to

07:08help you through the time you're going through.

07:09So this man brought us to a church where he said we could find help.

07:15It was, like I said, we traveled from our small town to the city to go to this church

07:20and it was what, 30 miles away or so?

07:24And when we got there, we realized this gentleman that became our dearest friend and was absolutely

07:30kind and spirit-filled, he was connected with some people that were different.

07:37And as I've looked into the background, I think they came out of Latter Rain directly because

07:43of some of the concepts that they taught and because of their actual connections, which

07:49I started researching and I haven't finished yet, but to Saskatchewan and towards people that

07:54were up there during the Latter Rain movement.

07:58So when we got to this church, we quickly realized that something was very strange about it because

08:06they were talking about this concept that everyone had to be under authority, that the only way

08:14we could do the things that God wanted us to do was to be under this control and this authority.

08:21They had the notion that they were Latter Day apostles and prophets and they'd been sent

08:27to this region we were living in and they were going to show us the way to build God's

08:32kingdom for the return of Jesus.

08:34But their way was, you have to submit to whatever the person over you in authority says.

08:42If you don't, it will come out from under the umbrella of protection that God has given

08:48us and the devil will get you or something bad will happen to you or, you know, you just

08:54won't be doing God's will.

08:56So people lined up with this because we were young and we needed, we were in our 20s.

09:00We needed to be mentored.

09:01We needed to be part of a community.

09:04We ended up getting really involved with this.

09:07And it's understandable that fear-based motives can bring a person down.

09:19But also, all the time we were under this, there was a sense not just of the fear of punishment,

09:28but the promise, the promise of building God's kingdom, the promise of if you follow us,

09:34we will be the ones who really know God.

09:37We'll restore the offices of the apostles and prophets.

09:41We'll be the ones who will usher in the kingdom of God.

09:45So that was kind of how we dealt with things.

09:50It was really, it was, when you look back on it, it was just silly, some of the things they

09:55did.

09:56Like, there was a hierarchy and a packing order.

10:00Like, once some of us ladies went out to dinner, and we were in a restaurant, and there was a

10:05round table.

10:06We were supposed to sit around, and no one could figure out, where is the pastor's wife going to sit?

10:12Because there's no head of the table.

10:14So they end up, they're like, finally, I said, why don't we just all sit down in the position we're

10:22at?

10:22We already know who the leaders are, but that's how it works.

10:28And like, we would go to church, and the women, see, this is the scripture they used.

10:33Every single one of these movements used scripture in a way that isn't what the scripture was intended to say.

10:38And I know you talk about it a lot, but they would say, women, you need to be like the

10:44Proverbs 31 woman.

10:46And her husband is seated at the gate.

10:49Her husband is an elder.

10:51So it wasn't just the men had to compete to be elders.

10:55The women did, too.

10:57And the main thing was, you have to keep your children under control during the services.

11:03You know, you're talking through all of this, and you're talking about old memories.

11:07I'm 50 years old.

11:09Those are my memories as well.

11:11Many of the things that you're describing, I still had.

11:14And it just goes to show how this really doesn't, it hasn't evolved that much.

11:19If you look at the modern movements, if you look at the past movements, they have new doctrines.

11:24They put new shiny lights on the thing, but it's still the same engine that's running down the road, right?

11:29But the thing that you did say that I think is significant, and I've thought, I'll put a lot of

11:34thought into this.

11:35I have many people on the podcast, different belief sets, or even people who don't have a belief set.

11:41Everybody's welcome to talk and share their story.

11:44The moment I have a Catholic, the outcry I get, I get emails from it.

11:50It's kind of crazy.

11:51We are, as a church today, we have become so programmed against the Catholics that we stop thinking of them

12:00as people.

12:00We basically have demonized them, but you are correct.

12:04Even in the newspapers that I read back in, you know, long before Lateran existed, you would have a Catholic

12:10priest who might come to a Protestant service, and yes, they didn't agree on doctrine at all, but they treated

12:17each other with respect.

12:19No longer today do you treat them with respect, and for me, that's a problem.

12:23Yes, that's what I experienced, and not to advocate for what was done back in those times, but I'm describing

12:31the times that we came up in, and that was a very unusual time, and it didn't last long, believe

12:38me.

12:38But back to what I was saying about the discipleship group, there was a real strong emphasis on keeping your

12:49children under control.

12:51My children, my daughter is your age, or you're older, and they're all about your age, so yeah, we can

12:56relate.

12:59My youngest son was born in 1982, and immediately he started to have really bad behavior problems, and as it

13:08turned out, he is severely autistic.

13:11He's 44 years old now, and he lives in a group home, and he had to go into a residential

13:18school placement at the age of like eight or nine because of his severe problems.

13:24So meanwhile, before he was diagnosed, they're telling us, keep hitting your kid, keep trying to keep him under control,

13:33and when we finally accepted he was autistic, which first of all was hard because we were believing for him

13:40to be healed, we began to be upset with the heavy-handed discipline that they were teaching us.

13:49So at this point, I don't know what exactly caused this, but we wanted to meet with the pastor to

13:56talk about what was going on.

13:58Do you remember anything?

13:59Well, I think it was because we wanted to measure up to everybody else.

14:03We felt inferior.

14:06We were country folks, country bumpkins coming into the city, and, you know, we were excited about God.

14:13We wanted all the things of God that they were offering, but we just didn't quite measure up, you know,

14:20and I think a lot of people that go into a situation like that feel that way, and we wanted

14:26to meet with the pastor to show that we were spiritual too.

14:30And that was a nightmare, meeting with the deep, deep personal conviction that was against us from the leadership all

14:41the way on down was just stifling, and it was the biggest mistake we ever made.

14:46And we, if I remember right, when we went to him, we asked him some questions about whether we should

14:55move or not, and he said, well, you've been told to move.

14:58Why haven't you moved?

14:59And he said, well, we haven't felt right about moving yet.

15:03And he said, well, the problem with you is that even as your son is autistic, you're autistic in your

15:09hearing.

15:10You're not doing what we told you to do.

15:12So that was a real difficulty going through all that.

15:19And furthermore, he said, because you disobeyed, this is why this happened to your son.

15:26And we left that meeting, it still hurts to this day, and hopefully I'm not sharing this to make anyone

15:34feel sorry for me or make us to be victims,

15:38but just in, I'm sure someone listening to this has experienced something like this, and it hurts, and they need

15:46to hear me say it.

15:48And it was a very common experience.

15:51There was a gentleman who was out riding his bike, a member of the congregation who kind of had a

15:56reputation of being rebellious.

15:58Because he was out riding his bike, he got hit by a car and died.

16:03And they didn't actually say this from the pulpit, but they insinuated among the eldership people talking that,

16:11well, he came out from under the umbrella of protection, and that's why he got hit by a car, and

16:16now he's dead, leaving a widow and two kids.

16:20So, this church was, like, one of the worst things that happened in our life.

16:25So, we were ready for something new.

16:29It's also interesting because if you go back in time to the beginning of Latter Rain,

16:34it begins with maybe not the same exact story, but it's a very similar story.

16:39And James Randi, who was a magician who went around debunking all of these stage acts of faith healing,

16:46he actually mentions this in the book, The Faith Healers.

16:49He went to one of William Branham's meetings, and there was a boy who was allegedly healed from –

16:55the boy had been hit by a car, and he couldn't speak.

16:58He was just struggling mentally because of this accident.

17:04And he was allegedly healed, and then whenever the healing did not happen,

17:10they claimed that it was because the boy had sinned.

17:14And you can read the newspapers, you can see the events, you can see when it happened,

17:17you can see the faith healer come, and you can see them blaming it on the boy.

17:21And this is horrific.

17:22This is a child who got hit and thrown – I think it was 30 feet he got thrown by

17:25a car.

17:26And that's the type of mentality that this movement has created.

17:30Yes, and it did – I don't know if – like you've documented, they didn't really repent the way we

17:39would have liked them to repent,

17:41but the movement very easily split up.

17:44And in my opinion, hopefully with the work that you were doing and others are doing,

17:51some of the false movements today will break up in the same way that broke up.

17:56It's no longer – but again, like you say, it morphs into something else.

18:01They rebrand it.

18:02They repackage it.

18:03And some of the elements have always been there in other churches we've been at.

18:08Like just really stern mentoring and really strong mentoring takes place in a lot of Christian environments.

18:17And it's – well, anyway, I digress.

18:21Another thing that's interesting, you might find interesting, while we were at the church just yesterday,

18:27I was listening to one of your videos where you talked about when William Branham came out with a teaching

18:33about polygamy.

18:35And he said, oh, well, you know, I guess you were saying something about the context that he could use

18:41that in Africa where they practice polygamy.

18:44But he also – is it true that he also started to bring that in even here?

18:51Is that what I heard or –

18:53Yeah, I don't know whether it was his intentions, but it did come in because it's a crazy, crazy story.

19:00His son got remarried.

19:02And in Branhamism, in Lateran, this was a big – in fact, in Pentecostal, this is a big no-no.

19:07If you get married once, you're married for life.

19:09Well, he had this sermon that was basically God's direction of why this was made possible.

19:17And he says, God has forgiven specific people.

19:19It's really, really weird when you think about it.

19:21Really weird.

19:22But he was angry at the world when he preached it.

19:25And in his anger, he started claiming that women were designed by Satan for the purposes of sex to deceive

19:34the men.

19:34And just weird, weird doctrines.

19:36Weird.

19:36And he started claiming that the – many, many things.

19:40I won't even talk about them.

19:42They're so bad.

19:42But in that, he started talking about how God had a covenant of polygamy.

19:47And if you think about the context of what he's doing, he's trying to say that it's okay if my

19:51son marries another person.

19:53They had polygamy back then, right?

19:55So he's not really advocating for polygamy, but he's using it as an argument as to why his son could

20:01get remarried.

20:03However, many people heard that, and they ran with it.

20:06So after that meeting, you had all kinds of polygamists.

20:08I totally suspect that this elder read some literature of that sort because he had a young woman living in

20:18his house, and him and his wife were counseling her.

20:22And he came into the church, and he announced that he could find a reason why it was okay to

20:27have two wives.

20:28And he said his wife had agreed to it, and they were all going to carry on.

20:33And I can't even believe this happened.

20:37It makes me sound foolish, makes him sound foolish for being there and even not running out the door.

20:44But this is what happened.

20:46And they did expose him.

20:48They made him repent publicly.

20:50And did they remove him from eldership, at least for a time?

20:54Yeah, they believed in plurality of eldership.

20:57There were three elders, and one of the elders was involved with this polygamy situation, and they did remove him.

21:06But, you know, that was just one of the signs that we saw that this is all it's cracked up

21:11to be.

21:12Yeah.

21:12Maybe we need to, you know, find something a little bit different.

21:16Right.

21:17So, at that point, some friends of ours had already left after these goings-on, and they had found another

21:23church in the same city, which was a Word of Faith church.

21:27And they were really excited about it.

21:29They said they were dear friends.

21:31We'd go out to see them every week.

21:32They'd come out to our house 30 miles away.

21:34We were dear friends, and our kids grew up together.

21:37And they said, in this church, they will believe for healing for your son.

21:43They're seeing healings.

21:44They're seeing miracles.

21:45Now, these people had come from Arkansas.

21:49The pastor had been a New England guy, moved out to Arkansas, got involved with the Word of Faith, married

21:55a woman, and they came back to start a church.

21:58Same thing.

21:58They said, we're apostles.

22:00We're sent to this area to bring in the kingdom of God.

22:03And this is the pastor that's going to end up in a bad way.

22:07But to start with, it was like they love-bombed us.

22:10They took us in.

22:11Then the worship leader, a lovely lady who's from Indiana, and she's still a worship leader and in a church

22:18out there.

22:19She's a pastor, right?

22:20Yeah.

22:22She moved back there.

22:23But lovely woman.

22:24And when she saw Vinny come in, she said, here's my drummer.

22:29I got a drummer from my worship team.

22:31So we were excited because we could use our gifts.

22:34They love-bombed us.

22:36People said they'd help watch our son.

22:38One time we needed money.

22:40They passed the basket around the whole church and gave us a basket full of money.

22:45I mean, things like that.

22:46It was wonderful.

22:47It was like a dream come true, which ended up being a nightmare.

22:51But they started to get the idea that the church could own businesses and have a revenue stream from these

23:05businesses where they wouldn't have to pay staff, but the staff could receive that money.

23:11So he began to activate a plan like that in the church.

23:16And he had people he considered they could run a business, and we eventually had a small business.

23:22They also gave us an opportunity to go to Bible school.

23:26They were free.

23:28They set up a typical Word of Faith Bible school with Rhema-type information.

23:34We learned every myth about William Branham, John Alexander Dowey.

23:41This is what we were talking about.

23:42Yeah, Robert Slayerden came to our church, the pseudo-historian.

23:46We heard about it all, that we watched videos of Branham.

23:49We saw that there's a book.

23:51Someone has shown it on your show.

23:52I think Charles, Where are the Lights by Bat?

23:55It's a book, something about, I don't remember what it is, but it has William Branham.

24:00Supernatural.

24:01I know exactly what you're talking about.

24:03You know, we read.

24:04Listen, I could go on for days about everything I've done.

24:07I've been in every stream there is, I think.

24:11So, yeah, that was the Bible school, for what it's worth.

24:15But we really got really strong in faith, positive confession, and all that.

24:23And it was a little suspicious what the pastor was up to.

24:27When you got the revenue from the businesses, there was several businesses in the mall.

24:33You ran a restaurant, and then there was a gift shop, whatever.

24:38He would say he needed the money, and he was taking it.

24:40And that was suspicious.

24:42Then he had a number of women around him who were older women that were giving money, wealthy people.

24:49And that is like, what's he doing to get that money from them?

24:55Again, not accusing me of anything, I don't know, but he had a big seminar, didn't make any money at

25:00all from it.

25:01But he wasted a lot of money, and that was a big mistake.

25:04So, he decided, hey, I'm not going to go lower.

25:06I'm going to go higher.

25:08At one point in the 80s, he said he was going to buy PTL Club.

25:13He said he was going to buy it.

25:16He talked to Pat Robertson about buying it.

25:19Is that who was over it at the time?

25:22Because it changed hands a bunch of times.

25:24Yeah.

25:25He talked to Pat Robertson about the PTL Club, and there was a question as to whether this was viable,

25:33which it wasn't.

25:36They probably laughed him out of the room.

25:38And this was from Israel.

25:39He was in Israel having his secretary call Pat Robertson because he wanted to buy PTL.

25:47He flew us all down there, the staff, including us, the janitor.

25:51Yeah.

25:51We were the janitors.

25:52He flew us all down there to impress everyone that he was going to buy PTL.

25:58And, you know, when you think about it, stranger things have happened.

26:02And I said this the other day.

26:04I said, what if we had turned into Bethel?

26:07Or what if we had turned into one of those?

26:10Because we were even here in New England, we had a huge church.

26:13We had a bunch of people sucked into the thing he was doing.

26:16What if he had been a little bit smarter and a little bit moral, more moral?

26:24He wouldn't have gotten in the mess he got in.

26:26Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

26:34reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

26:40You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

26:47On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

26:55John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

27:01You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

27:08If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

27:14top.

27:14And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

27:20watching.

27:21On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

27:26You know, you're talking about he wanted to buy a PTL club.

27:29If you look through the history of these guys, there are – and women, there were women in the movement,

27:35too – there were some absurd things they were going to buy.

27:38I came across three people that were going to buy Israel, just outright.

27:42One guy was going to buy Jerusalem.

27:44I think Frank Sanford was going to buy Jerusalem.

27:47Yeah.

27:47And they all – there was one link that they all had.

27:50They all had ties back to British Israelism.

27:52So they believed that we are the modern Israel, the Jews that you see there, they aren't the real Jews,

27:57that kind of thing.

27:58But they wanted to buy Jerusalem outright.

28:02What's weird is those people made a heck of a lot of money because people started contributing to it.

28:07Then they got rich.

28:08Once they got rich, everybody wanted to know how they could get rich.

28:12And it created this weird pyramid scheme where I still haven't dug in to try – you can't get all

28:19the financial reports.

28:20It's impossible to dig fully.

28:21But I suspect that the way that the structure – some of the structures worked, you had the religious guy

28:27at the top, you had some of the businesses below that were obviously tithing to the pyramid structure, and then

28:33below that were the other – it was like a pyramid scheme.

28:36The whole thing was a pyramid scheme.

28:37Yes.

28:38This pastor actually wrote a book with the help of – I don't want to name names – the woman

28:43that's from Indiana called The Joseph Principle.

28:47And he wrote this book to kind of explain some sort of a pyramid scheme like that.

28:51Now, I wasn't in the money end of the church, so I don't know what happened either.

28:56What I would like to see is some whistleblowers in these various movements that know more about the money so

29:03it can come out.

29:04And, you know, it's important because they'll use these schemes again if they're not stopped.

29:11So anyway, I thought you might be interested in this angle, too.

29:16He ended up divorcing his wife and marrying his secretary, and this didn't – this moral failure did not cause

29:25– we were not Pentecostals like you described.

29:27We were not going to say, you're married for life.

29:30This is horrible.

29:31He justified it using scripture.

29:34And we were talking about it the other day.

29:36My daughter is writing about her experiences, too.

29:39And he – she didn't remember this, but he got up and he addressed the church.

29:44Everyone knew he had left his wife, and he was with his secretary.

29:47And he said, take out your Bibles to the book of Esther.

29:52And he – at the beginning chapter, the king, whatever his name was, was having a drinking party with his

29:59friends.

29:59And he called on Queen Vashti to come out and strut her stuff for the men.

30:04And Queen Vashti refused to come out.

30:09And so he divorced her.

30:11And he said, I'm going to look for an Esther.

30:14I'm going to search the kingdom for an Esther.

30:16This is how the pastor labeled his adultery and justified it using the Bible.

30:24And I was even in the wedding party, John.

30:26I mean, we were – we went to his wedding.

30:29We supported him.

30:30But he was a con man.

30:32And a con man can do that.

30:35He can get sympathy when he doesn't deserve it.

30:38He can get people to do things they wouldn't normally do.

30:41And that is what he did.

30:44But at one point, he crossed the line from me.

30:47He began to have affairs with women.

30:50And it was known to many people.

30:52And at this point in my life, we participated in cover-up culture because the victims didn't want to come

31:01forward because back then they would have been accused of just seducing and having an affair.

31:07They wouldn't have been considered victims.

31:10No one wanted to get him out of the ministry.

31:13No one wanted to do anything because they were protecting the movement that we had created.

31:18They were protecting the financial security.

31:21But, yeah, the sense of meaning and purpose of our lives that had been invested in the movement.

31:27And we would lose everything.

31:29And a lot of us had invested money in time, talent, talent.

31:34And this would mean a loss of reputation where we wouldn't be able to be in ministry anymore.

31:39Because most of us, we just wanted to serve.

31:41God would be in ministry.

31:43But this was where we ended up.

31:46And so at this point, I began to get very angry.

31:51And a couple of times, I told my husband, I'm going to report him.

31:54I'm going to do something.

31:55He said, no, don't do it.

31:56Your friends that he victimized won't forgive you.

32:01It's wrong.

32:02Their husbands say not to do it.

32:03So I just restrained myself.

32:06But meanwhile, all the teens in the church could read him like a book.

32:09All the teens are saying, people your age were saying, what are they doing?

32:14Why are they following this guy?

32:17And it was actually embarrassing at this point.

32:21And so we tried.

32:22He left and he said, well, I can't pay my taxes anyway.

32:26Even though he rounded up all this money.

32:28He had failed to pay payroll taxes on all the businesses he had.

32:33And then he got everyone to give him large sums of money.

32:36I think we gave him $25,000, which was some of our inheritance.

32:41People mortgaged their homes to keep the thing going.

32:45So they were worse off than us.

32:47And when he got the money, it wasn't enough.

32:49So he went to Hawaii for two or three months with his secretary, who now is white.

32:54And he said, well, I can't pay the taxes anyway.

32:56The Lord wants me to have a good time.

32:58So meanwhile, when he left, everyone began to peter out of the church and leave.

33:06He said, well, he knew that the gig was up.

33:09And so what he decided was that he was going to, with the blessing of his church here, he was

33:18going to go to Florida and start a satellite church.

33:21And we were going to support that effort.

33:23So we're going to have another church down in Florida.

33:26What he was really doing was making his plans to get out.

33:31And we didn't see it at the time.

33:33So, you know, he would fly us down on the weekends to help him work on the church, maybe for

33:39a few days, and then fly us back like we were living high.

33:44And eventually it just died, and he stayed in Florida for a while.

33:48Almost everything that you've described, I can put a face to it, but it's a different face than the one

33:52that you're thinking of.

33:53That's the irony of this.

33:56And you can find bad apples in every religion.

33:59It's not that this has exclusivity to bad people.

34:02But the problem is there's really no accountability.

34:06And so whereas the other denominations, yes, they may have some bad apples, but there's also a process from which

34:12to filter the bad apples out.

34:13And after they get caught, you know, this turns into a different direction for them.

34:18In this movement, once you get caught, you just go into hiding for a little bit, and then you reemerge

34:24as a bigger thing, right?

34:25You actually don't lose anything.

34:27You get bigger after this happens.

34:29Yeah.

34:29Well, he didn't really ever achieve a big ministry, but several years later, my daughter and I were always Googling

34:38him.

34:38Once we got the Internet, we could trace what's going on a little bit better.

34:43And he still poses as a knight, a knight of Malta or something, to get people to think he's some

34:51important person.

34:52So he's still living high.

34:54Like, he had a picture once of a plane claimed to be his, and we don't know if it was.

34:59But you can rent a plane and make it look like it's yours and take pictures of yourself in front

35:03of it.

35:04And then, you know, make it look like you're a count or a noble person.

35:08That was the story of him.

35:09So at this point, we left that church because it disintegrated.

35:16And around this time, we also, thank God, this whole time with our son being autistic and stuff, we didn't

35:24follow any of these movements that just claimed healing.

35:29We got him an education.

35:31We got them the help he needed.

35:34We had him put in a residential school that would help him.

35:37And my husband worked very hard to get the necessary finances.

35:43In our state, there are good services for people like this.

35:46But we live in Western Mass, and we don't have the best services.

35:50They're all near Boston.

35:51So we had to really do a lot of legal work to get him in a place where they could

35:57help him.

35:58And that happened during this, after we got out of this church.

36:04And he comes home for weekends.

36:05He was just here last weekend.

36:07He's part of our lives.

36:08But it was a really, the trauma of having a severely disabled person can cause you to do things you

36:15wouldn't normally do as well.

36:16You know, so after we got out of the con man's church, some of the survivors tried to form their

36:23own church.

36:24But it was, I call it the church of the co-dependence, because it was basically a recovering church.

36:33And the pastor took it upon himself to say that we needed to be reparented.

36:39And they hooked up with a movement where they were talking about inner healing, some of the roots counseling.

36:50And he had a weird way of combining this with, like, being a life coach, positive thinking, entrepreneur type guy.

37:03Eventually, his church now is pretty successful because his daughter made a bunch of money in Herbalife.

37:10So they were basically, like Stephen Hassan talks about, the cult mentality of, like, an Amway church or a church,

37:18Herbalife church, we call them.

37:20And so, while we were at that church, interestingly enough, on our board was Lance Walnow.

37:28So, you know, Lance Walnow was a pastor in Rhode Island.

37:35He was a normal pastor.

37:36He was always kind of entrepreneurial, consulting, all that.

37:42But he was not what he is today.

37:45And I remember saying to him in a comment thread, Lance, you're different.

37:51What are you talking about?

37:53You're always talking about Trump.

37:54What happened to you?

37:56You know, that's what happened to him.

37:58I was having this conversation just recently, not specifically about Walnow, but about the movement in general.

38:05There's this idea that you should focus backwards.

38:08And it only seems to be in the Pentecostal charismatic movement, God's generals.

38:12You're looking back at what these other humans did, all other denominations.

38:17I'm trying to picture a denomination where a pastor will say, I'm going to be this great thing, and for

38:22future generations, you will look back and remember me.

38:26It's never like this.

38:27In fact, they would just denounce the whole thing.

38:30They would say, you need to go back and remember Jesus.

38:31Don't remember me as a human.

38:33But in the Pentecostal charismatic movement, you have to have these stepping stones.

38:38And I've come to the conclusion, and I'm still forming my full opinion.

38:43I'll probably present it in a podcast.

38:45But I've come to the conclusion that each person brings somewhat of an extra biblical or sometimes just slightly twisted

38:53biblical doctrine that requires to be in existence for another doctrine to appear.

38:59And so, you have to have these God's generals.

39:02Without the one guy, the whole doctrine topples.

39:05So, you've got to go back and remember him because he brought this other doctrine that's not in the Bible.

39:09Here's the next guy who built on that.

39:11So, you have the succession of extra biblical.

39:14And in the end, if you're adding stuff to the Bible, do you really believe the Bible?

39:19Right.

39:19And you don't realize it happens slowly, and your love for Jesus turns into something that's not even recognizable as

39:27Christianity.

39:28And that was exactly what was happening to us.

39:34And I'm trying to collect my thoughts still because I'm not sure.

39:39Do you have anything to add about this time?

39:41Yeah.

39:42That was probably in the 90s, mid-90s to late-90s.

39:48And we stayed in that church for about six, seven years, maybe a little bit more than that.

39:56But we decided that it really wasn't living up to what we had hoped.

40:02We were both in the worship team.

40:06We were thinking about just what we wanted to do with all this because it wasn't going anywhere.

40:12And that's when you were drawn to Lou Engel.

40:17Yes, that is what happened.

40:20And let me backtrack one little bit that while we were at that church, I said he was always morphing

40:26into something else.

40:27And he morphed into a period where we were involved with Christian International, and we heard about Bill Hammond.

40:33And Bill Hammond's directly Latter-Rain guy.

40:37And that is when we began to get the notions about Joel's army and that we all, instead of being

40:46the hero up there that we were following, like you talked about in some of the videos, and the man

40:53of God, it started to morph into the people of God.

40:59Like there was a saying, nameless, faceless generation.

41:03It's a generation of people.

41:06We're all going to have a part in this.

41:08We're going to partake.

41:10And after listening to like Jed Hartley, I really track with him when he talks about it, the next generation

41:18would come along and they'd age out and the dream wouldn't happen.

41:21And so you'd go back and try to recapture it again with the next generation and tell them we're going

41:26forward and we're going to carry the ball.

41:28And it would be, you get used up.

41:31So by this time, we were your age and we were used up.

41:34We were no longer the young generation.

41:36But we were trying to still find significance and meaning.

41:41So we heard of this man, Lou Engel, that was prophesying about revival in America.

41:49And he said, we're going to re-dig the wells of revival in America.

41:53And we're going to have mass meetings, like in stadiums and all that.

41:59And almost every time after this time, people would go back to the prophecies of Bob Jones.

42:05They'd go back to the Kansas City prophets.

42:08They'd go back to that place and say, this is what God started in motion.

42:11Now we've got to hook into this.

42:13So they would be looking at the prophecy that Bob Jones had about the billion soul harvest.

42:20This is how we're going to get the world saved.

42:23And it became the billion soul harvest of young people.

42:26So it's like, okay, we've got to pass the baton to the next generation.

42:29We're washed up.

42:31But we still love the younger generation because that was our kids.

42:34We wanted them to have, see the kingdom of God.

42:39So we began to, we've gone to a lot of stadium events.

42:42We went to the call New York.

42:45We went to the call DC.

42:46We even went to Glenn Beck events where he would gather a lot of people.

42:51And, but those were political, but we just had that thing.

42:56Maybe we got it in the sixties and maybe we got it through prophecy that we just wanted to see

43:00large groups of people gathering because we feel alone.

43:05We're not in the Bible belt and we really love God.

43:08We want to see something happen, but we're alone.

43:10We want to hook up with other people that are like-minded.

43:13So even though we're living in an area where there weren't any strong churches, we get attracted to what was

43:19happening, whatever the latest thing was.

43:21And that's when we heard about Brian Simmons.

43:23So we ended up at Brian Simmons church at the time.

43:28Now, you know, Brian is right.

43:29The passion translation.

43:30Yeah.

43:31He was in West Haven, Connecticut, which we could drive there in an hour and 15 minutes.

43:37He came to our church and he taught about the song of Solomon, which he really blows up into a

43:48whole narrative about, okay, so you've been in patrolling churches that didn't appreciate you.

43:55You were like the Shulamite with the bad shepherds mistreated, but if you come into my stream, you're going to

44:03always be treated well.

44:05Every single message this man preaches, he says the same thing.

44:09He says, I'm going to let the sheep out.

44:12He's going to say the other pastors made you serve them for 10 years and maybe you could hand out

44:16a bulletin or maybe you could get parking lot attendant, but I'm going to release the people.

44:20And it's a similar MO to and personality type to Bill Johnson, the grandfatherly kind.

44:28Everybody has a part.

44:30We honor each other.

44:31You can't make a mistake.

44:32That's so bad.

44:33You get thrown out.

44:35We don't judge.

44:36And this is what people today really respond to.

44:41And it's no longer the man up there authoritative, telling everyone what to do.

44:48It's body.

44:48It's all the body being released into their ministry.

44:52And this is how it's going to come in.

44:56So when I read Ryan's book, The Song of Songs, I showed it to my pastor's wife and she didn't

45:03like it.

45:03She said, I don't like this because she was controlling.

45:06Every time we get up and do a prophecy or try to lead out, they were jealous and they'd stop

45:11people from ministering.

45:13And meanwhile, I got worse and worse in pride and trying to be ambitious and exalt myself.

45:20So it was friction.

45:22And when this happened and I suggested that this book would be good and we should have him come in,

45:28And she said, she threw the book at me one day and she said, here, take your Brian Simmons, go

45:34with him.

45:35And I was, whoa.

45:37She started to get violent and she started to lie about what happened in these incidents and spread stories about

45:47me that I had gotten violent,

45:49Which I almost did with her because she was just unbelievable.

45:52Anyone that tried to leave the church, she came after him like a mad animal.

45:56So we know we had to leave.

45:58Even though they had tried to be kind, they just didn't have what it takes from ministry.

46:02One of the other things they did, which was similar to discipleship, was, you know,

46:06if you go and tell them something in confidence and you tell them this and that,

46:11they would use that information against you and tell other people what you had said in confidence.

46:15And a lot of churches weren't that way, too.

46:18It was very difficult.

46:20So we left and we went to Brian Simmons Church where they would never do that.

46:25But the problem with him is just he's an out-and-out heretic.

46:29And I'll explain to you why.

46:31First of all, he claims that he sees Jesus.

46:34He claims all kinds of Jesus came to him and told him that he was going to give him the

46:40secrets to the Hebrew Bible.

46:42And then he started writing the Passion Translation.

46:46And at this time, he was starting to get known for it because he put out the books one at

46:51a time.

46:52And when he was doing this, I knew that he wasn't a translator.

46:57And I knew that his wife was helping him and one of my friends.

47:01Those were his people that were helping him.

47:03And when he started to get accused of not having real translators, he would get some people that had dubious

47:11degrees or dubious ministries where they didn't really translate to say that they were helping him with it.

47:20And at this point, I began to realize another aspect of these ministries that just drove me crazy.

47:27I have two brothers who have earned PhDs in science.

47:32I have a brother who has a PhD from MIT in atmospheric science.

47:37And I know what it took to get a real PhD.

47:40They're going to Wagner Leadership Institute, getting fake PhDs, claiming that they...

47:47If you look at people who are true Bible translators, PhDs, they paid a price for that.

47:54And he was just tapping into this.

47:59And it really made me see red.

48:01I'd go in comment threads and, you know, kind of throw darts at him once in a while.

48:06And then eventually Mike Winger really exposed him.

48:10But that was very hard to go through and see.

48:14He seems nice, but what is he doing?

48:17You're talking about the fake degrees.

48:19It really angers me to no end.

48:21I grew up in a religion where education was frowned upon.

48:26I am one of the people who actually did get a partial college degree.

48:31I got my associate's degree.

48:33Many people frowned upon this because you weren't supposed to get education.

48:37So we were basically robbed.

48:39There are people who can't get a good job because they never got a good education.

48:43Then this movement progresses to create these diploma mills, generating these fake degrees.

48:50And that's prestigious for some people.

48:53But there are people who leave the movement who have this.

48:56And they have their whole life invested in that piece of paper.

48:59And they realize, man, this thing is worthless.

49:01Yeah, so I wanted to share about the – recently I just saw a video where you talked about the

49:09parousia or the coming of Jesus Christ.

49:13Brian Simmons has a whole – this is – he's been teaching in error since the beginning.

49:19He says Jesus is not going to literally return to earth.

49:23He says he's going to appear in his people.

49:25He will teach the book of Revelation like that, the apocalypse.

49:29He'll call it the unveiling.

49:31It's all manifest sons of God doctrine.

49:35And he takes it and ties it to his bridal paradigm where he's always talking about the Song of Songs

49:41and the Bride of Christ.

49:43And he will talk about Jesus' words on the cross where he says it's finished.

49:48And we don't need to talk about theology.

49:51We're not theologians.

49:52But he links it to the idea that it's consummated.

49:57And it's finished.

49:58But he says what Jesus was actually saying was the word bride.

50:03And then he goes into a teaching where the bride is my equal.

50:08You can't be married to someone that's not equal.

50:10So he almost makes us the fourth person of the Trinity.

50:15And he'll say that.

50:16He'll say if you were any closer to God, you'd be a threat to the Trinity.

50:21And that teaching I find very scary.

50:24Because he not only throws that in, he teaches the book of Revelation.

50:28And he throws out the judgment of God entirely.

50:32So God isn't coming to judge anybody.

50:34And, you know, the scriptures could apply to 70 A.D., you know.

50:38But God has told us that Jesus is coming to judge living and the dead.

50:46And his kingdom will have no end.

50:47And all the creeds.

50:49Now, if you don't believe the creeds and you're a Christian, fine.

50:51But I believe him.

50:52And to me, that sounded like it was not orthodox teaching.

50:57And he was told by some ministers once that he should cut it out and not teach that.

51:03So this is what he did.

51:05On the Sunday morning service, he'd do a good Baptist cessationist sermon like he used to.

51:11Maybe he added a little of the Holy Spirit.

51:13And he'd cover it up.

51:14And in the Wagner leadership classes that I was in, that's what he'd be doing.

51:19So here you go.

51:20They're talking about the manifest sons of God.

51:23They're talking about a new generation.

51:26We asked him if he would help us start a church.

51:29We're 50 years old.

51:29We're not dead yet.

51:31And he's like, no, if you have a 19-year-old, delete it.

51:34I mean, it was grooming the younger generation.

51:37And you were talking about that like Jim Jones was groomed to be the next.

51:41How?

51:42My mind just goes, what hath God wrought?

51:46What hath the devil wrought?

51:48And Todd Bentley was just one of those people.

51:52He, we met him in 2003.

51:54So he hadn't yet fallen to the depths he had fallen.

51:57They were trying to clean him up and package him, send him on the road to churches.

52:01They were going to send him like to Africa because that's where you get started.

52:05You can make a big splash for yourself in Africa and be a Reinhardt bonkie.

52:10T.L. Osborne.

52:14So this was a chance for us to be involved with ministry.

52:17And we like adventure.

52:18We've done a lot of adventurous things.

52:19So we had a trip to the Congo and we said we'd go with him.

52:24So we went to the Congo in 2003.

52:26It was quite an adventure.

52:28We had to go over the hills of Rwanda into the city of Goma, which had just been hit by

52:33a volcano.

52:35So smoke was still pouring from the volcano.

52:38And there was 10 to 20 feet of solidified, what do you call it, magma all over the city.

52:45And it was here they were advertising this great evangelist is coming to town.

52:50And the people came out in droves.

52:52They treated us like rock stars.

52:54They just brought us into the city and we went and preached in a big field or it was no

53:01longer a field.

53:02All the grass was out of it with a volcano as a backdrop in a rickety old stage with a

53:09bunch of pastors up there that didn't really care what he was doing.

53:12And this was what's amazing.

53:14And I'm wondering about this now after what you've shared about how meetings like this are set up because he

53:22never prayed for people in the crowd.

53:24He stayed on the stage and he did this whole presentation.

53:28He gave words of knowledge of who is going to be healed.

53:31And then he sent us out into the crowd and he said, you pray for these people.

53:37There's thousands of people out there and there's 12 of us with some ministers.

53:43We're out there.

53:44We didn't know what to do.

53:45Vinny organized it.

53:46He said, let's get you lay hands on you.

53:48And, you know, because what he taught was that the anointing was transferable.

53:52We can transfer it between one another and the same anointing I have, you have.

53:58That was one of the major things that screwed us.

54:03But when we went to see if any of these people could go up to the podium and declare they

54:07were healed because there were a couple that were.

54:09Or it seemed to me, and he's not sure about it, that he already had people set up behind the

54:14platform.

54:15And when you talked about Branham and some of these other ones having people as plants that were healed, I

54:21got suspicious.

54:23Because he said, no, the people I prayed earlier in the day, I went on the radio and gave words

54:28of knowledge.

54:29Those people that received those words of knowledge during the day, I want them to come up to the microphone

54:34and give their testimony.

54:36And that really made me suspicious that this wasn't real.

54:41And if I could wrap up with that, because I know people are listening, and they thought this was real.

54:50And, I mean, you thought, what did you think?

54:54William Branham created squirrels or something?

54:57We believe such strange things.

55:00Right.

55:00And back to your point, that situation, that's the very kind of thing that James Randi would have called out.

55:07I can't remember his exact verbiage, but he's like, even a cheap magician doesn't try these tricks because anybody can

55:13pick them out.

55:14However, the part that he really didn't focus on strong enough, in my opinion, the element of mind control and

55:21the disabling of critically thinking about the situations.

55:24There's so many people that they look at this, and, oh, God is moving among us.

55:29And they don't really think about what the person can do to trick them.

55:32Yeah.

55:32You don't want to come.

55:33If Brian Simmons says that Jesus appeared to him and came through the wall and told him to do something,

55:38what if that were true and you didn't believe?

55:41Because you were always taught, if you didn't hold on to your belief, we'd never get to that place we

55:45want to be in God where the end-time revival is going to come.

55:48So, it's kind of like the emperor has no clothes, and it's also like the – you ever watch the

55:54Charlie Brown special for Halloween and the Great Pumpkin?

55:59It's like if you have the perfect pumpkin patch, then the Great Pumpkin will come.

56:06So, if it's –

56:07I'm actually wearing my Great Pumpkin shirt today.

56:09I don't know if you saw it.

56:11Oh, you're trying to do this, and you're thinking, well, I can't give up now.

56:16I'll dig up my seed.

56:18I'll stop hanging in there in faith.

56:20But that's exact – it's actually – if anyone's listening to this, and they are, it's actually freeing to know

56:28you don't have to believe something that's a lie.

56:31And you don't have to do it this way.

56:34And it's okay that they were cheating you and tricking you.

56:37Your faith is still genuine.

56:39It's still true.

56:40And you just don't have to make up this stuff to believe it.

56:44And that's the main point.

56:46Do you agree with me?

56:48When you finally – it was really hard to listen to you because this has just happened to me where

56:52I realized, oh, my gosh, a lot of stuff, they were faking it.

56:57Until I watched your podcast, I didn't – it didn't harm me.

57:00So, I keep watching and watching.

57:04So, I would encourage anybody watching this to go ahead and keep watching the videos.

57:08Like, some of the videos won't apply to you, it will seem.

57:10But others will.

57:12You know, and then you'll get – you'll start to catch the thread and say, oh, I was deceived.

57:17And they really should check out Stephen Huss and the material that he has, too.

57:22Because I checked into it, I don't know, 15 years ago.

57:27But there's layers as memories come back, as more things get exposed that we all need healing in.

57:36And truth is very healing.

57:38Absolutely.

57:40Well, thank you so much for doing this.

57:41Like I said, when I read your email, I'm like, oh, my gosh, there's so many different – and there's

57:46probably more.

57:46I'm going to ask you, can you come back and do this again sometime?

57:49Yes.

57:49I want to talk about the prayer movement.

57:51I want to talk about some of the things we did, like divorcing Baal at every mosque in the United

57:56States.

57:57Not us, but a group of people and at every Masonic lodge.

58:00And some of the other weirdness about that movement would be good, plus more about NAR.

58:06Sounds good.

58:07Oh, that would be awesome.

58:08Thank you again so much for doing this.

58:10It's a pleasure to meet you.

58:11Thank you, John.

58:12Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

58:16You can find us at william-branham.org.

58:18For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to

58:24the NAR.

58:25Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

59:03Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

59:33Available on Amazon, Kindle.

Former NAR Insiders Expose the System From the Inside | Podcast Episode 625

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