- 9 hours ago
John and Chino examine the Freeman Files, a major research archive documenting Hobart Freeman’s sermons, notes, correspondence, and connections to William Branham, Kenneth Hagin, Gordon Lindsay, Anna Schrader, and the wider healing revival world. They explain how Freeman credited Branham with launching the end-time charismatic movement and how Freeman’s own message borrowed heavily from earlier Pentecostal and charismatic figures.
The discussion also challenges dramatic ministry origin stories involving angels, visions, prophecies, near-death experiences, and supernatural calls to greatness. Instead of building pyramids around celebrity prophets and revivalist stage acts, John and Chino argue for verified claims, careful biblical interpretation, and faithful local ministry that serves ordinary Christians rather than elevating spiritual elites.
Hobart Freeman, William Branham, Freeman Files, Branhamism, Faith Assembly, Kenneth Hagin, Anna Schrader, Gordon Lindsay, Voice of Healing, Latter Rain, healing revival, charismatic movement, false prophets, angelic visitation, fivefold ministry
00:00 Introduction
03:13 Freeman Credits William Branham As The Source Of His Message
05:09 Preserving The Freeman Files And Historical Documentation
08:25 From The Freeman Files To The X-Files Of Charismatic History
13:26 Supernatural Call Stories In Pentecostal And Charismatic History
17:58 Angelic Visitations, Hype, And Inconsistent Testimonies
23:17 Kenneth Hagin, Hobart Freeman, And Borrowed Faith Teaching
27:41 Why Every Big Ministry Claims A Supernatural Calling
33:55 Minor Prophets, Major Prophets, And Prophetic Stagecraft
40:49 Miracles In Scripture Were Not Hidden Or Unverifiable
44:16 Anna Schrader, Failed End-Time Prophecy, And The Freeman Foundation
50:21 The One-Fold Ministry Calling Itself Five-Fold
53:39 The Value Of Ordinary Local Church Leadership
57:53 Revivalist Ministry Models Make Ordinary People Feel Inadequate
59:43 Closing
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The discussion also challenges dramatic ministry origin stories involving angels, visions, prophecies, near-death experiences, and supernatural calls to greatness. Instead of building pyramids around celebrity prophets and revivalist stage acts, John and Chino argue for verified claims, careful biblical interpretation, and faithful local ministry that serves ordinary Christians rather than elevating spiritual elites.
Hobart Freeman, William Branham, Freeman Files, Branhamism, Faith Assembly, Kenneth Hagin, Anna Schrader, Gordon Lindsay, Voice of Healing, Latter Rain, healing revival, charismatic movement, false prophets, angelic visitation, fivefold ministry
00:00 Introduction
03:13 Freeman Credits William Branham As The Source Of His Message
05:09 Preserving The Freeman Files And Historical Documentation
08:25 From The Freeman Files To The X-Files Of Charismatic History
13:26 Supernatural Call Stories In Pentecostal And Charismatic History
17:58 Angelic Visitations, Hype, And Inconsistent Testimonies
23:17 Kenneth Hagin, Hobart Freeman, And Borrowed Faith Teaching
27:41 Why Every Big Ministry Claims A Supernatural Calling
33:55 Minor Prophets, Major Prophets, And Prophetic Stagecraft
40:49 Miracles In Scripture Were Not Hidden Or Unverifiable
44:16 Anna Schrader, Failed End-Time Prophecy, And The Freeman Foundation
50:21 The One-Fold Ministry Calling Itself Five-Fold
53:39 The Value Of Ordinary Local Church Leadership
57:53 Revivalist Ministry Models Make Ordinary People Feel Inadequate
59:43 Closing
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Cheno Ross,
00:00:46pastor and the voice of the Understanding Scripture and Truth by Cheno D. Ross YouTube channel.
00:00:52Cheno, it's good to be back and to share some exciting news today.
00:00:56I have been working on this, you know it from behind the scenes, I've been working on this
00:01:01for actually a few years now, and the last year or so became accelerated because the website
00:01:07was, the old website was about to come crashing down, and so I literally had to, with a sledgehammer,
00:01:15duct tape, and a few bricks here and there, I had to make my new website launch, but with
00:01:20it came all of the new stuff, and I think out of all of the research on the website, the
00:01:26Freeman information probably got the biggest benefit, mostly because of the stuff that
00:01:31you've given me, and I have, the new website is powerful, it's got some stuff running under
00:01:38the hood that is quite unique, but one of the things that it did was it took all of the
00:01:43audio files of Freeman, and converted from the text to speech, and indexed it in such a way that
00:01:50if you're on the website, you can navigate to the Freeman files, and you can click on Freeman,
00:01:56you can click on sermons, you can type search into the text and into the search box, and there's a
00:02:02checkbox that says search text. Well, lo and behold, I find all kinds of Branham quotes through this,
00:02:09and I've looked through the internet, I've not seen anything like this for William Freeman,
00:02:15so I've been holding off a bit, because there is a tremendous expense that comes with running
00:02:21everything in the background, and the moment I mention it, the floodgates are going to open,
00:02:27and there's, I'll just say it like this, I don't know how long I'll keep it up, because of the
00:02:32cost,
00:02:32but there is a donation utility if anybody wants to contribute, and I also need editing
00:02:39contributors, because there are many things that we need to clean up and categorize, and
00:02:44I just don't have the Freeman background knowledge to do that, but let me read you this quote I found,
00:02:51because as I was cleaning up and searching for Branham, and all of the variations on spelling of
00:02:56Branham, I found that not only did he talk about Branham all the time, quite frequently,
00:03:04he literally credits the entire movement that he is running to Branham, he says, and I'm quoting him
00:03:12directly, he says, the first thing, this end-time prophet that God used to get this whole end-time
00:03:18charismatic move going among denominations, if you don't know who that is, was William Branham,
00:03:24the basic theme in his message was the denominational spirit has to go, if you're going to be with God
00:03:30all
00:03:30the way, that, that is evil, it's not of God, it's Babylon, I don't know what we have to tell
00:03:36people,
00:03:36that God doesn't divide his body up the way it is, so I'm just saying this on basis, friend,
00:03:41if you come here, you're going to hear that message, the same message given to me, so what he's saying
00:03:48here is directly that William Branham's message, and that's the name of the cult following of
00:03:53Branhamism, the message, William Branham's message is his message, and he's preaching it,
00:03:58and you're going to hear Branham's message in his meetings, and if I can help out at all, John,
00:04:03here's how I would want to help you out, I think I do have the expertise in
00:04:09tremanism, I just don't have the time to do all the editing, but I know that what you have compiled
00:04:16is simply phenomenal, and it does not come cheaply, I know you are not a beggar, as most of these
00:04:25false
00:04:25ministers are, you rarely mention anything like that, so I will mention that for you, and no,
00:04:32John didn't put me up to this before we went on air today, but I know there's a lot of
00:04:38work that has
00:04:39gone into this, and this is an incredible resource where you can literally type in things and find
00:04:46the exact places on, you know, over a thousand messages that Hobart Freeman taught, but it does cost
00:04:56money in order to keep all this online, and I would just encourage anyone and everyone to contribute to
00:05:02your calls, John, to, you know, keep this up, and keep this going, and keep this running. I know a
00:05:10lot of that
00:05:10information about Freeman, there's really two different sources, and we've shared this before,
00:05:15one of them was someone who had been, who had been, I guess I can say entrusted with the files,
00:05:26sermon notes, outlines, class notes that belonged to Dr. Freeman when he was alive, this person had all
00:05:35of that in their possession, and once they began hearing these podcasts, they were kind and generous
00:05:42enough to just send all that to me, and then I got it into your hands, and then you, I
00:05:49mean, we're
00:05:50talking about thousands and thousands of pages of personal correspondence, sermon notes, you know, we even
00:06:00have the actual original envelope where a person, say, from Australia is writing Dr. Freeman, and we have
00:06:10the envelope, we have their original letter, we have his response, we have all of these incredible
00:06:17details that, you know, are going to be very difficult to find any other way for a lot of ministers
00:06:24that
00:06:24are in our past, and we also have the sermon notes, so if someone wanted to see, when I was
00:06:33there at
00:06:33Faith Assembly, listening to, this is not me, this is someone who sang this, who was a member, listening
00:06:41to the Deeper Deliverance and Discernment series, I wish I could see, I wish I could listen to the
00:06:47message, and have also in my hand Hobart Freeman's notes that he had up at the podium, that he
00:06:54was preaching from, that's what I'm saying, we have it all, all of the messages are available, and all
00:07:00of his handwritten stuff is available, so for everyone out there, please consider contributing
00:07:07to John's website here financially, in order to keep all of this going, I don't earn anything from
00:07:15this, I don't think John earns anything from this, if you earn anything, it's negligible, and it's
00:07:22deserved, because of all your work, I'm just one of these occasional guest hosts you have
00:07:27on, and just contribute my knowledge for, really for the benefit of documentation and history,
00:07:35and hopefully people have learned things, and have experienced some measure of vindication,
00:07:40or maybe even freedom from Freemanism, and I love what you call it, you call it the Freeman
00:07:46Files, I remember a television show, I love to watch, it was back in maybe the late 1970s,
00:07:55I didn't even look this up to verify, but it had James Garner, and it was called the Rockford
00:08:00Files, and it was just a fun show to watch, so I love your name, but that's exactly where
00:08:06I got the name, I was thinking that, and also I was thinking X-Files, and it's just as crazy
00:08:10as both. Well, there you go, I loved watching James Garner in the Rockford Files, him and
00:08:17his father trying to solve cases, so here we are with the Freeman Files trying to solve
00:08:25some old Pentecostal charismatic cases, I love it John. Yeah, there's so many things out
00:08:30there, and I mentioned X-Files, I don't know if you're a fan of this, but there were so many
00:08:34things that were just out there, and interestingly, back when that was recorded, I remember when
00:08:40that was coming out new, and we weren't allowed to watch television, but I found ways around
00:08:47that, and I did see the X-Files, well, the X-Files was about the UFO encounters, and all
00:08:53of the stuff that they thought was science fiction, and maybe it still is, but as of yesterday,
00:08:59they released, I don't know if you saw this, they released all of the government documents
00:09:05that's been, well, I should say some, not all, of the classified documents about the
00:09:11encounters that government personnel have had with these alien encounters, or whatever they
00:09:17are, they don't come out and say. Very interesting things out there, I did not know, such as apparently
00:09:24on two of the moon landings, they saw things that were out of this world, man, and they
00:09:30had, it's funny to me, because as they were classifying the data, they were telling people,
00:09:37we don't, there's nothing to this, we don't believe anything like this, but they actually
00:09:41had a standard format for the data entry to capture the data for these UFOs, and they had
00:09:48categories for the dimensions, the propulsion, all of these things, right? In later years, they
00:09:54have added a category called payload, so they're literally tracking the payload of these, and
00:09:58one of the documents I read yesterday, they didn't use the word mothership, but they said
00:10:04it was a mother of ships, or something like this, and they talked about how the big red
00:10:10pill that they saw was dropping off green pills that would fly out and shoot and go different
00:10:16directions, weird, weird stuff. And I know that's, you know, outside of what we're talking
00:10:21about, except for that it's not. In the charismatic movement in the 40s and 50s and 60s, there was
00:10:28this UFO craze, and it was like the X-Files within the charismatic movement, which is another
00:10:33podcast I'm going to be doing very, very soon. It may even come out before this one. Some
00:10:38of the most fundamental elements of Branham's ministry actually came from UFO stuff. So when
00:10:46I'm talking Freeman files, I'm talking X-Files, I'm talking Branham files, all of this nonsense
00:10:51and absurdity is literally just the creation of a stage act that entertains the itching ears.
00:10:58And I would bet that if there's anyone listening to the podcast today who is a, or was, or still
00:11:06is, a Freeman follower, they would say, well, Freeman didn't believe in anything like that.
00:11:11You jogged my memory when you went down that rabbit trail, and I'm not prepared to talk
00:11:16about it today because I don't have the facts in front of me, but I can say with 100%
00:11:21certainty
00:11:21that there are messages where Hobart talked about UFOs and 100% believed in them. He even
00:11:31did a little teaching on Matthew 24 that talks about the wars and the rumors of wars and pestilences,
00:11:39famines, earthquakes in divers places. It talks about the sun being darkened, the moon turning
00:11:46to blood, and he went off because it was just a year or two post America landing the first
00:11:54man on the moon. And when he was talking about that, he's living in that moment. He's living
00:12:02in that moment, and that was a huge time in world history, let alone American history, to land
00:12:07someone on the moon. He felt the landing on the moon was one of the signs of the end times,
00:12:13that somehow that ties in to the moon becoming the color of blood. So I just say that to say,
00:12:21yeah, it's just crazy. It's terrible exegesis of the teaching of scripture. It's living in the moment
00:12:30and trying to, you know, reading, having the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other hand,
00:12:37and trying to see if you can find anything happening today that is a fulfillment of prophecy. I mean,
00:12:45too much of the evangelical church, the prophetic preachers part of it has just gone through too many
00:12:52years that way. Having the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other and trying to find a
00:12:57fulfillment of some ancient prophecy. But what I actually want to talk about today, John, and you
00:13:05and I missed last week, that's my fault. I apologize for that. I wasn't feeling the best early in the
00:13:11week. Then I got feeling well and went fishing the spring run of the walleye out of Lake Erie up
00:13:18in
00:13:18the Detroit River. So I was gone catching walleye with some friends of mine the end of last week.
00:13:23But we're back on task today. And what I want to talk about, what I want to look at,
00:13:29and I'm sure you can help me out with this tremendously, is just take a little look at the
00:13:35stories that allegedly lie behind the call to ministry of so many of these names that we know
00:13:47from Pentecostal and charismatic history. The stories that allegedly lie behind their call to
00:13:54ministry. It doesn't seem like any of these men just had an increasing awareness in their own heart
00:14:06that God was calling them into some ministry. It didn't happen that way. It always happened in some
00:14:13kind of extraordinary way. And we have just finished, you and I, several weeks of podcasts
00:14:21and discussions about Hobart Freeman's so-called call to ministry under the prophecy and vision of
00:14:27the prophetess Anna Schrader. So that's what leads me to talk about this. Because when you think about
00:14:34his call to ministry, then you go back to Branham, because Freemanism is built on Branhamism.
00:14:41And you know more about Branham's alleged call to ministry, but it involved angelic appearances.
00:14:49And he's not the only one. You have other people out there who are big on the appearance of angels.
00:15:00Hobart never traced his origin in ministry back to an angelic visitation. But he did talk about
00:15:08angels all the time. And yes, we believe in angels. Angels are in the Bible. Angels have existed. They
00:15:14still exist. But Hobart, I know there was a book that came out. I don't know if it was the
00:15:20late 70s,
00:15:21maybe it was the early 80s, but something about angelic visitations. And you know, as soon as some
00:15:28popular book is printed and makes the rounds in Pentecostal and charismatic circles, and that
00:15:34becomes the hot topic. And I can remember early messages of Hobart, him talking about this,
00:15:42and I just called it an urban legend, because I heard it so many times from not only from Hobart,
00:15:49but from other people, that there would be a couple driving down some lonely country highway
00:15:58late at night, and there'd be a hitchhiker. And so this elderly farm couple, being the neighborly
00:16:04sort that they were, would stop and pick up this hitchhiker, and he'd get in the back seat, and they
00:16:11would be driving down the road for a while. And there would be a lot of quietness in the car,
00:16:16and
00:16:17they'd finally speak up and address the hitchhiker in the back seat, and then his response to them
00:16:23would be, don't you know Jesus is coming soon? And then they'd turn around, and he was gone.
00:16:30I heard that story all the time. I heard that story. Maybe it did happen. I can't say that that
00:16:38didn't happen. I know that the writer of Hebrews encourages us to be social, be kind, be friendly.
00:16:47He said, because some have entertained angels unawares. It's very possible that people have seen
00:16:53angels and been unaware of it, but that just kind of took over the 1970s. And then Hobart also would
00:17:03go on to say whenever he was standing up at the pulpit and ministering what he called his gifts
00:17:10of healing, that there was often seen by him an angel. I know William Branham told the same kind
00:17:18of story, that it's an angel that's standing by me that ministers these gifts of healings.
00:17:25And so Hobart, I never saw an angel up there the times I visited, but somebody did relate it to
00:17:32Hobart. And then that became, I hate to say it, but part of the shtick, part of the package,
00:17:39you know, that this man is up there and there are invisible angels around him. And they are the ones
00:17:45either helping him in his gifts of healing or helping giving him this experience. So even though
00:17:52that is not a call to ministry, and I really need to get back to the topic, I think someone
00:17:56like
00:17:56William Branham is a classic example of telling us of a call to ministry because of some kind of
00:18:05intervention of angelic forces, and he's not the only one.
00:18:09You know, for me, the problem isn't really whether it did or didn't happen. The problem is that it
00:18:16doesn't happen to the average person who is a Christian, who loves God, who is being the best
00:18:23possible person they can be and gets in need. You've got all of these television shows touched
00:18:30by an angel, and you build up all this hype. That's all it really is, hype and entertainment.
00:18:35And it appeals to people who are in need. That's really the sad part. So they go to see the
00:18:40person
00:18:41who's having the angel encounter or whatever it is. And each person, I remember this, whenever I was
00:18:47desperately in need, I needed to be touched by an angel. I needed an angel to come down and visit
00:18:52me.
00:18:53But it never did, you know. And I can tell you that out of all of the faces in the
00:18:58crowd that
00:18:58rank and file members of the pews, not a single one of them had an angel come in their hour
00:19:03of
00:19:03desperation when they had it. But yet, these leaders are claiming just left and right, I had this angel
00:19:09and this thing happened. And I don't remember all the details, but this thing happened. And I got to
00:19:15thinking one day, if an angel from God came down from heaven, and you were trembling in fear because this
00:19:23being that you can't describe, you don't know what is, comes down and talks to you, it's going to scare
00:19:30you
00:19:30so bad, you're going to remember, you're going to remember which hair was out of place on your head. And
00:19:36yet,
00:19:37these guys can't seem to get the details right in their retelling of the story from tale to tale,
00:19:42town to town. I started thinking, well, you know, other people may believe this happens. I don't yet
00:19:48believe any of the stories that I've heard. Now, it may happen with some evangelists. I don't know.
00:19:53I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But of the ones that I've heard, just because of their
00:19:58inconsistencies in the stories, there's no way that this happened to them. I can assure you,
00:20:03if the mayor, which is not an angelic being, if the mayor were to come into this office right now,
00:20:09I could tell you every part of my desk that's a mess for the rest of the time, because this
00:20:14is
00:20:14something special. This is something out of the ordinary. This happened to me, if it happened.
00:20:19I would remember every detail. I'd remember what he's wearing, what I'm wearing. But these guys can't
00:20:25even remember what the angel itself looks like. And each telling, it gets different. And I've come to
00:20:31the conclusion, no. It's just, it's good entertainment for people who like entertainment.
00:20:36I think it's a very valid point, John. When you look through the Bible, angels definitely do
00:20:40appear, I won't say frequently. You got to remember, we've got several thousand years worth of history
00:20:46recorded from Genesis to Revelation. So if you see a hundred angelic appearances, so you've seen a
00:20:52hundred, but that's over several thousand years. That's not that frequent. But you're so right.
00:20:58When they do appear, they are astounding. Or when there is an appearance of the Lord to someone,
00:21:06the first thing they do almost invariably is they fall on their face as a dead person.
00:21:13I mean, it is an astounding experience. And yet the experiences I've heard, I even heard one a couple
00:21:19of years ago. I was teaching in a place and a woman wanted to share. She asked me afterwards,
00:21:25if I believed that angels could appear, if I believed in visions. And I said, yes, I believe
00:21:32in visions. I believe in dreams. I believe in angels. I believe they can appear. But I kind of
00:21:39knew her background. So I knew she would be, she'd be much more receptive to it than I am. I
00:21:46can't say
00:21:47I'm not receptive. Well, maybe I can say I'm not receptive. I'm just, I'm just skeptical. I just need
00:21:53to know all the facts. I need to know, did you have pizza for dinner late last night? Did you
00:21:59over imbibe on alcohol last night? I need to know all the details before I'm really going to be very
00:22:05trusting. And then I want to see something actually fulfilled that was predicted. And
00:22:09you might have me on your side. But anyway, she wanted to tell me a story where
00:22:14Jesus appeared to her and they were riding on a bicycle built for two. And I just thought,
00:22:21I mean, I, I did not tell her it didn't happen. I'm not, I'm, I'm in no position to tell
00:22:27her that
00:22:28didn't happen. But when I hear a story like that, that Jesus is riding with you on a bicycle built
00:22:34for
00:22:34two, that just doesn't square with the times that I know he appeared to human beings and the times
00:22:42that I know he appeared, I find that in the pages of sacred scripture. And when I find those
00:22:48occasions, it, as you said, John, it's an other worldly experience and he is not on the backseat
00:22:54of a bicycle built for two. So for these ministers, if it's not an angelic experience, it's a, it's a
00:23:01near death experience. Sometimes it may be a death and then they came back to life experience. Of course,
00:23:09it happened without any documentation. There are no cameras involved. This is just their telling of
00:23:14the story. And, you know, I always find that a little suspicious. Someone like Kenneth Hagin,
00:23:23who was, has told the story a thousand times. Anyone who knows Kenneth Hagin knows of McKinney, Texas.
00:23:31And I was raised up from the bed of affliction in McKinney, Texas. You know, Kenneth Hagin went to heaven,
00:23:37went to hell, cured of incurable things given by, I think, an angel, Mark 11, 24. And that was the
00:23:46foundation verse of his ministry, which became the foundation verse of Hobart Freeman's ministry
00:23:52because Kenneth Hagin was the keynote speaker at that June 1966 conference down in Dallas, Texas.
00:23:59I just don't think Freeman's followers realized how deeply he drank from Kenneth Hagin, from William
00:24:09Branham, from T.L. Osborne, from all of these people. He got his message from them. He did not get
00:24:17it from
00:24:17studying scripture. No, he did not. He got his message from the people that came before him.
00:24:23What he did a good job of is he just, as he progressed over the years of his ministry,
00:24:32he mentioned them less and less often because he's trying to distance himself from them and create in
00:24:42the minds of the people that this is a message that God has given directly and specifically and
00:24:50almost only to me. By the end of his ministry, that is exactly what he said, that I am the
00:24:59only
00:24:59person God has given the full end time message of faith, whatever that is, to. I am the only person.
00:25:08Well, I thought he gave it to Kenneth Hagin and then you got it from Kenneth Hagin by sitting on
00:25:14the
00:25:14front row of that deliverance conference because I've heard Hobart tell the story. The first day,
00:25:21the first day of the conference, he's on the front row and Hagin is saying all of this stuff about
00:25:26faith and miracles and casting out devils, as they like to call it down there, and all of these
00:25:32supernatural experiences. Hobart said, I'm sitting there with my mouth open saying to myself,
00:25:39where in the world is he coming from? The next day he said, I want what this man is saying.
00:25:46The third
00:25:47day he said, God said, you've got it. So he got his faith ministry directly, not indirectly, sitting at
00:25:57the feet of Kenneth Hagin. So if you believe Freeman, you've got to believe Hagin. Now what Freeman tried to
00:26:06do later is distance himself from Hagin by saying, well, I still believe he's God's prophet, but he
00:26:13got off in his teaching ministry and he ended up teaching things like Jesus died spiritually and
00:26:19you know, it's okay to go to doctors. And that's what Hobart was always doing. He was trying to
00:26:25separate the good from the bad in these past ministries that he had acclaimed and knew that
00:26:32some of his foundation was based upon by keeping the good and throwing away the bad and saying, well,
00:26:38now if they operated within their prophetic calling, then they were God's minister. And he said the same
00:26:47thing about William Branham. But if he got outside of that prophetic calling and then began to try to
00:26:53teach, well, then he ended up a heretic. That just doesn't make any sense to me. Because when I read
00:27:00my
00:27:00Old Testament, the prophets of the Old Testament, more than predictors of the future and that they
00:27:08were, but more than that, they were teachers and preachers of righteousness. More than predicting a
00:27:14future event, what were they doing? They were calling the nation of Israel or the southern kingdom
00:27:19of Judah back to their roots in the law of Moses. So they were preaching and teaching the people all
00:27:26the
00:27:26time. So you can't separate it and say, well, now you can be a prophet and yet have heretical
00:27:32teaching all throughout your ministry. That's not the way any of the Old Testament prophets were. And so
00:27:37I don't believe it's the way it is going to be today. So, and if it didn't come, John, either
00:27:44through
00:27:44angels or trips to heaven or hell or miraculous healings, then the only other way for it to come
00:27:52to you for any of these big time ministers is it has to come by a personal call through another
00:28:00big name person. Hence the connection Hobart Freeman to Anna Schrader. But I'm going to ask
00:28:08just what you asked a few moments ago, John, why do we think that this is, why do we think
00:28:16this is
00:28:16important? You know, as you said, it doesn't happen to all of us normal people, all of us regular,
00:28:24God loving, God fearing scripture, reading and believing people. I've never had an angel appear
00:28:31to me and I've never had any higher up important person call me into the ministry with through vision
00:28:40and prophecy. Why is it? Why is it we think this is so important and necessary? Well, I mean, I
00:28:49think
00:28:49the answer is somewhat obvious that these men are wanting to cast themselves bigger than they really
00:28:58are. And they want, because we know, because we all own a Bible and have read it and we see
00:29:06the
00:29:06calling of Moses and we see the calling of Elisha. I mean, look at what happened to Elisha. The only
00:29:13way
00:29:13he was going to get a double portion anointing is if he could pick up the mantle and witness Elijah
00:29:22being taken to heaven in a whirlwind. What an experience. But it's recorded, I think that's in
00:29:302 Kings 2. It's in our Bible. It actually did happen. I'm surprised, by the way, parenthetically,
00:29:38that I haven't heard anyone say they picked up somebody's mantle because they saw him taken up
00:29:43in a chariot with horses of fire in a whirlwind into heaven. Because you do have a biblical basis
00:29:51for that story. No, I think because we have all of these supernatural accounts of prophets of old in
00:30:02the biblical narrative being called in incredible ways, for some reason, we think that's the way to
00:30:10be called today. And so, you know, that just goes down. It opens up this whole can of worms, again,
00:30:16of the validity of apostles and prophets today. I can say this, if you're going to claim to be in
00:30:24one of those ministry offices, then guess what? I mean, it comes with the territory. You've got to
00:30:31have one of these incredible stories behind your call to the ministry. And so what Hobart did,
00:30:39he got this so-called vision and prophecy from Anna Schrader that you have been given this end-time
00:30:48message of faith. You're going to build a monument of faith. You're going to pour water on parched
00:30:55ground, and it will be not in the prisons and jail cells, but within the denominational system,
00:31:04and my people will come to life. She had a lot of other things in that prophecy.
00:31:09Of a literal well, of Hobart meeting Jesus at a literal well, of there being an auditorium that
00:31:16would seat 50,000 people, and Hobart is there preaching. Let me ask this question. I mean,
00:31:24this is just basic sense. Why don't any of us have a call? And our call, and it was a
00:31:30vision and a
00:31:30prophecy, and you know what it was, John? It was, you are going to be a faithful minister for the
00:31:36rest of
00:31:37your Christian life to 20 people. Nobody has that call. You know, nobody has that call. Everybody has a
00:31:47call to thousands and thousands of people. What does that tell us? That tells us there is
00:31:54entertainment, there is manipulation involved in this. No one can tell us of this great call they got from
00:32:02God, and the call was, I want you to faithfully pastor a little church out in the country of 20
00:32:08people. Will I ever get anything more than that, Lord? Nope, not a single thing. All you got to do
00:32:15is be faithful for the rest of your life to 20 people. Who wants a call to that? I think
00:32:20it's a
00:32:20beautiful call myself. I think it's a biblical call to shepherd a little small group of people,
00:32:27and you never get any notoriety. There's no fame. There's no fortune. There's no platform. You don't
00:32:34get to travel around the world with your name on a marquee somewhere. Why is it that the calls of
00:32:42all
00:32:43of these ministers came in some humongous supernatural way and that it was to some stupendous
00:32:52supernatural ministry? It just doesn't make sense to me. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal
00:32:59movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,
00:33:05charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and
00:33:11more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page
00:33:18of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
00:33:25John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:33:31You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:33:37If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute
00:33:43button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that
00:33:49you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for
00:33:55your support. You mentioned Anna Schrader, and I got to thinking about that after our last conversation.
00:34:02In fact, I recorded a podcast talking about the minor prophets. And I'm not talking about the minor
00:34:07prophets that you're familiar with in the Bible. I'm talking about the minor prophets nobody talks
00:34:11about. I love that. I love that. You have to have the major prophet, who's the stage act, but you
00:34:17also
00:34:17have to have the minor prophets to back up what that prophet is saying. And here's the other thing that
00:34:24I
00:34:24have as a huge problem with just logically thinking about it. These guys are preaching a five-fold
00:34:31ministry. You've got apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists. That's all good. But why
00:34:37is it that that five-fold structure only applies to the leadership? People can have prophecy. People
00:34:44can have visions. They're telling you, your young men will see visions, your dream dreams. Your old men
00:34:49will see visions. Well, if they're telling you this and then giving you the carrot on the stick that you
00:34:55can have prophecy, why is it that only the stage acts confirm the other stage acts in prophecy?
00:35:02Why doesn't the church have people that are standing up saying, yes, that prophet, I had the same exact
00:35:08prophecy. That guy is telling the truth. I got to thinking about it. And, you know, if I wanted to
00:35:13create a stage act, all I have to do is hire a few people and say, well, John had the
00:35:17same prophecy I
00:35:18did. And then everybody's going to start believing them, right? I would never do this. That's evil. But
00:35:24that's the point I'm making. That's evil. That's not how you treat people. And I have to ask the
00:35:30question, is that really what they did? Because I don't, I've never heard any of them say, I was
00:35:37preaching and I was down in this church in the middle of nowhere in Arkansas, and suddenly a voice
00:35:43cried out in prophecy and declared the exact end of the world scenario that I just preached last Sunday.
00:35:49I've never heard them do this because the whole movement would suddenly swarm the
00:35:53little guy in the church and say, lift him up and say, he's our prophet too. And they don't want
00:35:58that. They want to be the only prophet. So you've got this scenario where they know it's a pyramid.
00:36:05They know that they want to be at the top of the pyramid, but here's where it gets weird.
00:36:09It's not just one pyramid. You've got this game of thrones going on where each person wants to be at
00:36:14the top of their pyramid. And they know that the other guy's doing the same tricks that they're doing.
00:36:21So if you've got these competing pyramids, it literally turns into a game to see who can have
00:36:26the biggest pyramid. And that's not what church is about. It's breaking down the pyramid and making
00:36:34the common people, you know, giving them, empowering them to be better Christians.
00:36:38So when I left this, I came to realize that it really wasn't about me. And that was the bottom
00:36:44line
00:36:44for it. I don't care if everything they said was true. Maybe it is. Maybe they did see an angel.
00:36:49Maybe they had a prophecy. If they did, it really didn't affect me. It was more them wanting me to
00:36:56think they were something special and keep them on top of their pyramid. I don't need that. What does
00:37:02that benefit me? I think that's what research does, John. If people will just think critically
00:37:08and do a little research, that's where all of this eventually leads. And it leads to some real
00:37:14valid common sense questions. You know, why is it all of these big name people had some type of
00:37:22incredible call to ministry? Why is it that they all have a call to some big ministry? I mean,
00:37:30just the logic of it all doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It is, yeah, and you'll have
00:37:37your major
00:37:37profits and your minor profits for sure. Big name and not so big name. And the ones who are not
00:37:45so big
00:37:45name wish desperately they could become big name. It just doesn't work out for them for a variety of
00:37:51reasons. They don't have the resources. They don't have the speaking ability. Breaks just don't come
00:37:57their way. You know, it's the same as professional singers. You know, we know through the years who
00:38:05the well-known singers are. There are just as many, if not more people who can sing beautifully,
00:38:13but they never get the opportunity. They never get the break. You know, they didn't move to Nashville
00:38:19and, you know, cash in all their chips as it were. They can sing just as well as the people
00:38:25that we
00:38:26know, but things didn't fall in line in their life. And so they never got there. And so that's
00:38:33what's happened with some of these minor profits. But if we don't, I mean, so when Hobart came along
00:38:40and started talking about Anna Schrader, you know, this ministry, I just want everyone to know,
00:38:45came through vision and prophecy by Anna Schrader. I don't even know who Anna Schrader is and neither
00:38:53did anyone else. Speaking of minor prophets, she's a minor prophet. She's not one of the major
00:38:58prophets or prophetesses. Nobody knew who Anna Schrader was. And so, you know what they have to
00:39:05do next? You look at the way they word things. What Hobart would say, what was said in that flyer
00:39:13that came from Gordon Lindsay advertising that June 1st deliverance seminar? They'll say something
00:39:19like, Anna Schrader, who is widely recognized and respected as a prophetess within the body of
00:39:28Christ. Okay, widely respected. Well, what does that tell me that I must not be a part of that
00:39:34wide group because I don't even know her. So I can't recognize her or approve of her. I don't even
00:39:41know
00:39:41who she is. So what they're doing is they're pressuring people to get in step with the Spirit.
00:39:52You know, if you're not in tune with the Spirit, then you just can't see it. That's one of the
00:39:58things I was always criticized by people at Faith Assembly with. They said, well, the reason,
00:40:04you know, you don't see things is because you're not listening to the Spirit. And my response would be,
00:40:10but I'm reading the Bible. I'm reading the same Bible you're reading. And I don't see these things
00:40:16that Hobart is teaching. Well, that's because you're just reading the dead letter. No, I'm reading
00:40:21everything in the Bible. You tell me which parts of it, which parts of the letters of Scripture are
00:40:27dead. You just tell me which parts are dead. Then let's take that out of your Bible. You tell me
00:40:33which
00:40:33parts are dead and which parts are living. I think all of the Word of God is living. And it
00:40:38will live and
00:40:39abide forever. But because I'm not listening to the Spirit, you know, that's just a catchphrase for
00:40:47you don't agree with us. You know, you just have decided not to swallow everything hook, line and
00:40:53sinker. That's just a catchphrase for you are a little bit, you know, to wanting proof of things.
00:41:01You're wanting verification of things. Well, okay, I plead guilty to that. But what's wrong with that?
00:41:08I'll go back to what we have talked about for two years now together, John. The healings,
00:41:15the exorcisms, the miracles in Scripture, they were not done in a corner. They were not done on some
00:41:21island down in Indonesia where no one can verify it. The miracles and healings and exorcisms in Scripture
00:41:29were not done in a corner. And that was what caused the early church all of their persecution
00:41:34because they had raised the dead. And it made the religious leaders not look so good. You know,
00:41:40this new group called The Way, this new group called Christianity, they have raised people from
00:41:49the dead. They have lifted people up who were born from their mother's womb lame. None of the Pharisees
00:41:57and Sadducees could do anything like that. So it made them look pretty bad. But one thing that we
00:42:02read in Acts 5 from the Pharisees and Sadducees, they said that a notable miracle hath been done,
00:42:10we cannot deny. I mean, it was verified. They knew it. They knew the man. So unfortunately,
00:42:18unfortunately, I guess I have traveled as I know you are currently traveling on the outskirts of all
00:42:25of this, because I am as willing as the next person to see someone resurrected from the dead.
00:42:34But you know, it can't happen in Indonesia. And then this is a 10th hand account that you are
00:42:40relayed. That's just that doesn't work. That just doesn't work. I'm happy to have some vision or
00:42:49dream some stupendous act actually occur in 21st century America. But it's got to occur and it can't
00:42:57just occur for the believing few and not occur for everyone else. I'll go back to what I just said
00:43:03in the Bible, it occurred for everyone, believer and unbeliever alike saw it, witnessed it, couldn't
00:43:09deny it. And so that's what we call verification. And that's what we call a true miracle. So no,
00:43:19I don't I didn't know who Anna Schrader was. And no one else in Hobart Church had ever even I'm
00:43:24sure
00:43:25heard the name. So what I have to do is I got to start doing my research, which I did
00:43:31as a teenager
00:43:32when I was in college at Ole Miss, and found how you could, I don't know even remember where,
00:43:38but you could order probably through Gordon Lindsay's ministry back then, you could order
00:43:43those big pamphlet books that would give prophecies of the end times by Anna Schrader.
00:43:48And I had two of them back then. And I thoroughly read page to page of those prophecies looking for
00:43:57something. And all I heard and all I read was just great vagueness. It was so vague and so general.
00:44:08I could have prophesied it. Anybody could have prophesied it. So, you know, I put the books down
00:44:13disappointed. And yet this was the foundation for Hobart Freeman's ministry. And let me just say this,
00:44:20John, because I don't know where everyone in our audience is, but I'm sure there are some people,
00:44:26I'm one of these. This is a belief of mine. I don't believe there is any such thing post-Pentecost
00:44:35of the ministry of a prophetess. I just, I personally don't believe. So if you happen,
00:44:42and if you believe in it, that's fine. But if you happen to be one of those who do not
00:44:47believe in a
00:44:49in a post-Pentecost ministry of a prophetess, because if you believe in that, then you have
00:44:56to believe in female authority and female leadership in the church. But if you don't
00:45:01believe in that, then guess what? Hobart's whole ministry, the foundation from it with a stroke of
00:45:07a pen is just gone for you. Now, not for someone who believes in the validity of a prophetess in
00:45:14ministry. I'm only talking to the ones who do not believe in that stroke of a pen. It's gone
00:45:20because in your mind, in your theology, there's no such thing as a prophetess. But even if you do
00:45:26want to hold on to that and believe that there is such thing as a prophetess, what I saw was
00:45:33manipulation through Gordon Lindsay, the way he phrased it, that Anna Schrader is a respected
00:45:41prophetess throughout the body of Christ. Throughout what section of the body of Christ?
00:45:47It's only in your little latter rain group is she even known. So that is the only part of the
00:45:55body
00:45:56of Christ in which she would be respected or recognized. In the broader charismatic or Pentecostal
00:46:03world, and definitely in the non-charismatic denominational part, she's not known at all. And
00:46:10she certainly wouldn't. She would have been thought of as a quack. So I feel pressured
00:46:15whenever people use a sentence like Anna Schrader or Clara Grace or some of these people, they are
00:46:23widely recognized and respected within the body of Christ. I would simply say, what part of the body
00:46:30of Christ are we talking about?
00:46:31And you know me, I always go the logic path. Logically speaking, not just with Anna Schrader,
00:46:37but take any one of these minor prophets. And there were numerous of them. You can open up
00:46:42Voice of Healing and you can read all of these minor prophets that are, we're backing what the
00:46:47major prophet is saying. They're correct because we had a prophecy from God. Take her prophecies of
00:46:53the end time. So God comes down. God speaks to a prophet. God is saying the end time is right
00:47:01now.
00:47:01The world is about to end. Tell my people. And the minor prophet writes it down. And then everybody
00:47:08abandons it. Everybody forgets about it. How many of you have heard Anna Schrader's prophecies of the
00:47:14end time? How much did that matter to the people of God that she even had this prophecy of the
00:47:19end
00:47:19time? For me, because it's forgotten, it tells me two things. Number one, it didn't work out in the
00:47:26way that she thought it would. The end didn't come, obviously. Number two, it was just to reaffirm
00:47:32something that one of the ministers was saying. We may not even know who it is, but as a minor
00:47:38prophet, that's her job to back the major prophet. So the minor prophet backs the major prophet. Minor
00:47:43prophet says, God told us exactly the world is about to end. Get ready because it's here. The end is
00:47:49nigh. Well, then the end wasn't nigh and everybody forgot about it. So was it really God speaking or did
00:47:55God just make a big mistake? No. And to your point, John, Hobart himself said that the 70s would
00:48:01pretty much wrap everything up. It's easy to say that when he did in 1971, because you've got nine
00:48:07years to go. How far are we removed from that? When was Anna Schrader saying the end times are upon
00:48:13us?
00:48:14This is the last generation, 40s, 50s? You know, before too long, we're going to be 100 years removed
00:48:20from that. So it's not a true prophecy. And what did Moses tell us in Deuteronomy to do with prophets
00:48:28that give prophecies that don't come to pass? Do not be afraid of them. God said, I did not send
00:48:35them. Where did they get that prophecy? He tells us they spoke out of their own heart. You know, it's
00:48:41just something that sounds good. You know, it's something that generates interest. You know, who's
00:48:48going to stand in the pulp of the day and say, I don't know if we're living in the end,
00:48:53the end of
00:48:54the age or not? I don't know. That's exactly what I say, because I don't know. But how are you
00:49:01going
00:49:01to gather a bigger following? Just go to your logic. How are you going to gather? You're going to say
00:49:08these are the last days. And the more precise you can get with the time limit, the more you have
00:49:16ramped up the whole movement and the fervor and fever that goes with that. Hobart had heard,
00:49:24obviously, John, from Anna Schrader, from William Branham, from other people that were living in the
00:49:31last days. And look, I believe we're living in the last days. But I often tell people, read Hebrews
00:49:37chapter one, read first John two. Both of those passages say they were living in the last days.
00:49:43So if they were living in the last days, 2000 years ago, you're certain that we are living in
00:49:50the last days today. But what they mean by that is that it's this generation, like a 40 year time
00:49:57period, this generation is not going to pass away. How many generations have said that? When are people
00:50:06going to wisen up to the fact you're not going to be able to say that? Every other person who's
00:50:11tried
00:50:12it lived until they died, lived until they died, and it didn't come to pass. So yeah, I have huge
00:50:19problems with this. And you know, John, we've taken many shots at this five-fold ministry, as you
00:50:27mentioned, Ephesians 4.11. We've done some podcasts on that. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors,
00:50:34teachers, teachers. I have often said, I mean, for years, when Hobart was still alive, I said this and
00:50:44felt this. And I've said it ever since then. They talked about five-fold. All their ministers were
00:50:51five-fold, and they only had one-fold. There were 40 teachers that were sent out from there and traveled
00:50:58around and taught. The one-fold called themselves a five-fold. They said, I'm a part of the five-fold.
00:51:06And I would say, you people are almost hilarious. This is almost like, I mean, what's going on? This
00:51:13is the emperor with no clothes on, you know, and only a child is able to say, don't you know
00:51:19you're
00:51:19naked? You know, only a child is able to say, listen, you group of people at Faith Assembly talking
00:51:25about five-fold this and five-fold that. Give me one apostle in your church, or prophet, or evangelist.
00:51:33The only pastor you're giving me is Hobart, and Hobart is not a shepherd by anybody's definition
00:51:39of what a shepherd is like. All you have are a lot of guys going around teaching the Bible.
00:51:44You don't have five-fold. You have one-fold. And so, what they had to do, though, John, was to
00:51:53legitimize at least the possibility of there being a prophet or apostle. They had to point to people
00:52:00outside their group. They could never find anybody with inside their group. So, to legitimize even the
00:52:06possibility of five-fold, what Hobart would do, he would say, T.L. Osborne was an apostle,
00:52:14or Roberts was an evangelist. William Branham, Kenneth Hagin were prophets. See, you have to go outside
00:52:20your own church just to legitimize the possibility of there being any current apostles or prophets.
00:52:29And, you know, it leaves us at the end of the day when I don't know of any apostles. I
00:52:36personally
00:52:37don't believe that apostles exist today because I think one of the qualifications was you had to be
00:52:42an eyewitness of the post-resurrection experiences of the Lord Jesus. Prophets, that's a whole other
00:52:48matter. We won't get into that. But anybody who's claimed to be one, let me just say it this way,
00:52:54I don't know of a prophet. The people who have called themselves prophets have given false prophecies
00:53:00that didn't come to pass. And there are strict warnings. I mean, strict warnings all the way to
00:53:07the point of the death penalty in Deuteronomy 13 and 18. So, I'll be very careful claiming to be a
00:53:15prophet and then have things that you prophesied didn't come to pass. So, I'll just leave it with
00:53:21I have never seen, met, heard of any current present day prophet. I've heard people call
00:53:31themselves prophets, but they prophesied things that didn't come to pass. So, that puts them in a
00:53:37different category in my mind than a biblical prophet. So, what does that leave us with then,
00:53:42John? At the end of the day, it leaves us with nothing but that lowly, lonely local church
00:53:47leadership. You know, just the pastor of those 20 people in some country setting. And nobody wants
00:53:54to do that. There's no glamour. There's no money. There's no free rides on Gulfstream jets. You know,
00:54:03it's just laboring week after week, month after month. But you know, I think that's where the
00:54:11reality is. I think that's where the reality is. In my own personal belief, people may choose to
00:54:19disagree. I don't follow any six flags over Jesus churches. I don't believe in those things. I don't
00:54:25believe that's a New Testament pattern. I just see a lot of money and a lot of prestige and a
00:54:31lot of
00:54:32popularity. But is there any truth to what you said earlier, John? How am I, as an individual
00:54:40Christian disciple, a lover of Jesus, how am I benefiting from any of that? None of that means
00:54:47anything to me. The only thing that would mean anything to me is something that I can experience
00:54:52myself. I don't get to have these angelic appearances and trips to heaven and hell and
00:54:59all of this money and prestige. You know, I live a seven day a week daily Christian walk.
00:55:07You know, how does any of that benefit me? Does it benefit me at all? What I need to know
00:55:12is I need the teaching of scripture. I need to know what does the Lord expect of me as a
00:55:17normal
00:55:18down to earth? I'm living in the 21st century. Unfortunately, not the first century where you
00:55:25could see the apostles and witness all this. I'm living where God has placed me. And what I need
00:55:32to know is what do the scriptures teach? And I don't think you're going to get that in Six Flags
00:55:38over Jesus. I think the only place we're going to find that is in some anonymous, local, lonely,
00:55:47lowly church where there's 15, 20 people, 30 people, 40. There's not 10,000 because 10,000,
00:55:56they go after what the masses are interested in. But surely God foresaw our day in which we live.
00:56:05Surely God, surely there is a valid church. Surely there are valid churches. Surely there are valid
00:56:13Christian ministers. Look, John, because I don't believe in apostles and I'm skeptical of prophets
00:56:19doesn't believe, doesn't mean that I don't believe that God does not still call men to ministry. We have
00:56:30to believe in that if we believe our Bible. We have to believe that God is going to call some
00:56:36man to be a
00:56:37shepherd of a group of people. But he does not have to have an angelic visitation to prove anything.
00:56:44What he has to have is the character in his own life. What he has to have is stability and
00:56:51faithfulness
00:56:52and knowledge of the scriptures. And that sounds lonely and lowly and boring. But I really do think
00:57:01that's where it is. And that's where growth really will happen. I would suggest that people find a
00:57:08setting away from six flags over Jesus. You don't have to have a church that has coffee and donuts. And
00:57:16we've got something for the kiddies and we've got something for the youth and we've got singles
00:57:21classes and we have elderly classes and we have, and we, we just need someone. We just need some men
00:57:29who will faithfully, lovingly take care of, guide, minister to, interact with, be among those people
00:57:41and regularly exposit the scriptures. And I think that would be a little bit of heaven on earth.
00:57:50I was thinking, actually, before we started recording, of one of the problems that this church model,
00:57:57I hesitate to even call it a church model because it's not church, really. But this model of this revivalist
00:58:04mentality, five-fold ministry mentality, what it does is it isolates the people who are in the congregation
00:58:10and makes them feel inadequate. We're talking about the days of miracles is here. You too can have a
00:58:15miracle. And yet everybody in the audience, none of them really have anything. And you do have these
00:58:20old codgers that sit around in McDonald's or whatnot and say that they have it and they have this gift
00:58:27of prophecy and they talk about bicycles built for two, all kinds of weird things. But the problem is
00:58:34which one of those has a voice that would be heard? If God was actually speaking to them,
00:58:39which one in the congregation would listen to those people? I know that there are people who are on the
00:58:44outside trying to help those on the inside and they usually encounter those guys. I can picture the
00:58:50faces of a few of them over here at McDonald's. And that's the face of the whole movement to them.
00:58:55They think, well, wow, these people, they really think they have a miracle. But that's not true.
00:59:00There's only like one or two percent in the congregation who believes that they too have
00:59:04something. And they're usually the oddballs that nobody wants to listen to. And if God actually gave
00:59:10them something, would never listen to them. The average person who's in the pew feels inadequate.
00:59:15They never have the carrot on the stick miracle that's coming. They never have the gift of prophecy
00:59:22that's talking about the doomsday that's about to come. They're never the ones that back the central
00:59:26figure on the stage. And for me, you just can't have a model of church like this and grow the
00:59:32church because the church will always feel inadequate. It's all about the leader and it's
00:59:37not about the common people. So thank you for lifting up the common people.
00:59:41Yeah, you're welcome.
00:59:42If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
00:59:46You can find us at william-branum.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic
00:59:50Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR,
00:59:55available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:00:38Weaponized Religion.com.
01:00:38Weaponized Religion.com.
01:00:40Weaponized Religion.com.
01:00:41Weaponized Religion.com.
01:00:41Weaponized Religion.com.
01:00:41An verdure acostume.com.
01:00:54You canh湯.com.
01:00:55How about the Compl longestigation Limit,
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