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00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, researcher, and friend, John McKinnon,
00:46author of The Persuasive Preacher, The Gifted Prophet, and The Noble Politician.
00:50John, it's good to be back and to talk about how these cults emerge, and specifically as it relates
00:57to prophecy. I know that from the listener's side, I know that there are a lot of people who are
01:02wondering some of the things that we're going to talk about, and they're pondering how all of this
01:07can be, because they have either got involved in a church or have grew up in a church where prophecy
01:14is a fundamental element of the church doctrine, and the prophecy isn't that accurate. That's really
01:20the sad truth about all of this. And I'm laughing just at the absurdity of this. It's not that it's
01:27really that funny. It's sad in a way, but it is absurd. When you think about people, grown men and
01:34women, who have built their entire lives around something that they believe to be from God,
01:41and it's not true, and then they never make that next leap. If the thing that we're talking about and
01:47believing is not true, does that mean that the God who is giving these divine revelations ideas to the
01:55leader, does that mean that the God is not true? And sadly, the reason this is so sad is because
02:01sadly it robs people of every credible ounce of faith that they have once they learn the mistakes.
02:09And I get people, in fact, I just got one last week, a person who they're just really struggling
02:13because they came suddenly to terms with the fact that everything that they believed was not true.
02:20And yet, they're surrounded by people who some of them know it's not true, others are unaware,
02:26but they all just surround themselves with these beliefs in this prophecy or end-time revelation,
02:34thinking that it makes them better than the church down the road. And I'm glad we're getting
02:40deeper into this because I know, like I said, there are people contacting me. I know there are
02:45listeners who are commenting, and it's really good to give some examples and talk through why this is
02:51so problematic, but more to the point, why people choose to remain in such a problematic church.
02:58Hello, John. It's good to be back here again, and we're on episode number two of what happens when
03:06prophecy fails and how to start a cult by having false prophecies. But we're getting into the background
03:13and covering that more thoroughly, because without this background, we can just present the reality
03:20of it, and you won't understand the dynamics of what's really happening in the hearts of the believers
03:27and why they do what they do. So if you were to go out and talk to someone, you would
03:33have no clue as
03:34to why they can't see that a prophecy is clearly false, and they can still hold on to their belief
03:39system. So all this background in these two episodes that we're doing right now is showing
03:45exactly why they do that. And there's many dynamics in the human nature that's going on,
03:51and we're all prone to do it, but recognizing it is one step in the direction of being able to
03:58live
03:58a life that's very true to yourself, and not trying to become, you know, just blending in
04:05with a group. You actually can live with a true identity and be who you are. So that's what we're
04:12going into for, and it's going to be three episodes here dealing with false prophecies. But the first
04:17two, this being the second one, we're covering exactly why people are continuing to hold on to
04:23their beliefs and hold on so strongly with these ties, even though you can clearly show that what
04:31they're believing didn't come to pass. This was true in the book we studied, Why Prophecies Fail,
04:39about the group that believed a flood was coming and the aliens were going to, you know, carry them
04:44off the earth and protect them from the flood. That never occurred on the date they set and why they
04:50continue to believe it afterwards. It's the same true for any group that sets a date, because we
04:55know date settings is not a very good bet, you know, for anyone. You would have to be of the
05:03caliber
05:04of Moses or Elijah or Jesus even to start setting dates, exact dates, when things are going to happen.
05:13So I've never seen that in scripture before, but we've got some pretty bold people nowadays that try
05:17to set dates. So we're going to get into this, John, and it's going to be a fun, fun ride
05:22today.
05:22You know, one of the questions that people ask me, and I have a really hard time answering,
05:27there really is no way I can answer it. I can give my opinion, which I'll, I'll give partial opinion
05:33here. But one of the questions people ask me is, do these so-called prophets really believe what
05:38they're saying? And do they really think they're prophecy? Because in many cases, as I mentioned earlier,
05:45in many cases, the prophecies aren't quite true. Sometimes a detail here or there may come to pass,
05:52but by and large, the every detail of the prophecy isn't true. And if you believe in a God who
05:58is
05:58omnipotent and all knowing, the God who's giving the man the prophecy is not going to miss details and
06:05get half of them right and half of them wrong. Or sadly, it's usually more wrong than right,
06:11especially the ones we've mentioned with Branham. Whenever these prophets give these prophecies,
06:17they will often talk about how accurate they are, even after it has been widely proven that they're
06:23not accurate. And the question really is, do these people believe what they're saying? I, in my opinion,
06:31I think some of them actually do. I think there are people who really believe that they are a prophet
06:36and some of the things that they're saying are true. And when it fails, they just, they're a little
06:42surprised that it failed and they move on and do it again and again. But there are people who really
06:47believe what they're saying is true. There are also people who do not. And if you go onto the internet
06:54and you start searching for people who are calling out some of the modern apostles and prophets,
07:00especially in regards to prophecy, you'll find that there's a whole array of people who are just
07:05saying things that aren't quite true. And some of them, I believe, in my opinion, they, they know
07:12that what they're doing is not prophecy, but it is a good way to earn money. I, uh, I was
07:18listening
07:18to Chris Reed the other day. Um, and some of the things that he said, I was watching a video
07:25with Mike
07:25Winger pointing out some of the things Chris Reed was saying, and it came right down to the way that
07:33he was trying to say that his prophecy came before the fact was that he was showing a iPhone and
07:39he
07:40was showing the date at the top of the iPhone note. And see, I had this prophecy beforehand and Mike
07:46Winger holds up his iPhone and says, 10 years ago, I said that Chris Reed would say this. And he
07:52made
07:53some adjustments in his phone and made the date change and he could do the same thing. And so the
07:59question remains, do the prophets believe what they're saying? In my opinion, some of them don't.
08:05And, uh, I'll let you decide whether or not you think Mike Winger's example is one who doesn't. But
08:12in the end, there are people who are misleading the public for the sole purpose of having a ministry.
08:21And sadly, there are people who just have no other means to make money than to get other people to
08:27give
08:27them money. And that's really what we're dealing with here. Was William Branham in that category?
08:32I don't know. I've, I've looked at some of his prophecies and when you combine it with his
08:37statements on his mental health, it makes you wonder, did his mental health play a factor in the
08:44prophecies? And did, was his brain unstable enough to believe that, that these things failed? On the one
08:52hand, I think it's possible, but on the other hand, he often mentioned how not a single prophecy,
08:59not a single detail was wrong and yet continued to change the details. And in one instance, in the
09:07India prophecy, he prophesied that he was going over, we'll probably talk about this later, but he was
09:13going to India and you'll hear of tens of thousands times 10,000 being saved when I return. And we
09:20obviously
09:20didn't hear that. That has not happened in India. And it especially didn't happen when he returned.
09:25And so he had to admit that the prophecy failed. He admitted it, it's on recording, everybody can go
09:31listen to it. And after admitting it, then he continued to say that my prophecies are all true and every
09:39detail is true. I tend to believe that that was the point. It was eye opening for me that I
09:45realized he
09:46doesn't really believe his own prophecies. And that's my opinion. I think there was a point which
09:51he probably did because of the mental health issues. But there came a time when he realized that
09:57I just had to admit that my prophecies have failed, but I'm going to continue to say that every single
10:03detail is correct. That's so correct, John. I totally agree. You know, what we're really dealing here
10:08with this is human nature, and how we're actually programmed to behave, because we're all human
10:14beings. All these things, you know, that cause people to stay in these groups is because of our basic human
10:20needs. It's a need to belong, it's a need to be around people, the need to have family, and the
10:26need to be
10:27loved. You know, people actually get their sense of being and belonging and purpose through membership in
10:32the group. And what we find out, though, is many times, all of this is just a facade. You know,
10:39even within the
10:39groups, people need to be loved. But the God kind of love is not present, you know, within these groups,
10:47only to the
10:48extent, they only show you love to the extent that you're showing loyalty to the group. And that's been
10:54demonstrated over and over, probably in your life, my life, and others. And the second question, the second you bring
11:01a
11:01question to the group about any things that would threaten the existence of the very group, and these
11:07are things like the false prophecies of, say, William Branham, or the lies that he told, or, you know, things
11:15that he said that were supernatural and really are not, you know, the second you do that, then the love
11:20that this group says they exhibit, and they say it's agape love, it's shown to be what kind of love
11:26it really
11:26is. It's conditional. It's temporary. It's also manipulative and coercive, and it's really
11:34pharisaical and hypocritical altogether. It's been demonstrated that the love that these groups have
11:40is not agape love, because had they had agape love, they would endure long with you. They would be patient
11:48and kind. And as Paul says in Corinthians chapter 13, but the love I've seen in these groups is an
11:56instant turning you off, throwing you out, you know, calling you a devil. It's not the kind of
12:03love that God provides, because God's love is not a feeling. God's love is demonstrated through
12:09long-suffering with the person. So for them not to hear us out, we just went through why they're not
12:16hearing us out, and why they're not willing to listen, is because they can't stand the conflict
12:21in their minds. So the dynamic, it's a hot, this dynamic that you see there about this false love,
12:28it's a hallmark of the high demand religious environments, where community and belonging
12:34are really powerful incentives to people to stay there. But then they're weaponized, is what we're
12:41talking about here at all these podcasts we've been doing, weaponized religion. They're weaponized
12:46to suppress independent thought. True unconditional love, you know, by contrast to this, persists,
12:55and even amid disagreements or questioning or withstanding somebody face to face, they still
13:01are your brother, and you're still willing to have a counsel with them. Think of Peter and Paul.
13:08Peter was siding with the Jews at one time, and they wanted to go back to the law. Paul confronted
13:15him to his face. They had a strict disagreement. The contention was sharp between them. But that
13:22didn't mean Paul threw Peter out on his head, you know, and said, you're no longer in our group. You're
13:28no longer a Christian. They worked it out. And the truth prevailed. Peter's so-called truth that he was
13:36holding on to turned out to be not what the gospel was all about. And it turned out the Judaizers
13:44that
13:45were trying to convert the Galatians and others back into Judaism was not the right way for the
13:50gospel. It was not a demonstration of the love from the gospel. Paul showed them that. They worked
13:56it out. And at one point, and I think it was Acts chapter 15 or so, they had to have
14:02a Jerusalem
14:03council to work out this thing between Jew and Gentile with the Christian faith. It didn't mean
14:10that they threw each other out and said, we're different groups now. No, they were one. But
14:16these groups that are high control religious groups that have their own man of the hour, have their own
14:24prophecies that they've proclaimed, even though they're false, teach scripture very contrary to what
14:30it even says. They will not fellowship with any other Christian. They have their own group. And
14:36it's sad to say, you know, they've just excluded them from the Christian world. And it's very sad for
14:43the people that are stuck in that. It is sad. You know, I have lived in multiple states. I went
14:49to
14:49churches from Indiana, Arizona, South Carolina, everywhere in between. And in the cities that we
14:56attended church, there were in some of the states that we live, there were multiple
15:02Branhamite churches in the same city. And in most cases, not all, but in most, they did not fellowship
15:08with one another. They had their own special revelation. And if you understand the ancient
15:14world, how the mystery sects began and how they operated, how Gnosticism emerged, we have the divine
15:22mystery. Nobody else does. Well, that was the way that Branham set up the framework for the entire
15:28movement. And then what happens is when these prophecies fail, people are left to try to give
15:35their own understanding as to why. Or if a doctrine is in conflict, if Branham taught doctrine, Trinity is a
15:44good example. He taught that anybody who believed in the persons of the Trinity had basically accepted
15:51the mark of the beast. He doesn't come out and say that, but he says basically that if you go
15:56down
15:57that pathway, you're lost because you have believed in the persons of the Trinity. And in another
16:04recording, he's praying to the persons of the Trinity, multiple recordings he does actually.
16:09And I'm told by some of the people who I've interviewed that in his early ministry, one of the problems
16:16he
16:16faced with the Pentecostals was he was baptizing Trinitarian in one church and then baptizing
16:23oneness in a different church, all while saying that he's one or the other, depending on which
16:28church he's in. So he doesn't really believe what he says. And what are you to do with this?
16:33People are left to try to reconcile because they are trained to believe this was a message from God,
16:39the last day, end times message from God. And he is the messenger, so his message must be cohesive.
16:46But it's not. So what do you do with this? You try to come up with your own excuses as
16:50to why.
16:51When you do this, you end up with a doctrine that tries to solve the problems with his doctrine.
16:59And your solving of that doctrine doesn't match the church down the road. So they're preaching
17:03something else and eventually the split happens and they can't, they have to sever communication
17:10because they're preaching heresy. They're not, they're not uplifting our profit in the way that
17:14we should be. Fast forward to the modern movement. That same problem continues to exist. You have all
17:22of these ministries who are saying things that some of it is just so heretical, it was deemed heresy in
17:28the ancient world. And they're resurrecting heresies to preach his church doctrine, while at the same time,
17:35mixing all of the elements from latter rain that Branham bought, brought all of the failed prophecies
17:41that they have and the reinventing of prophecies. They're, they're basically making the mess bigger.
17:48And what happens is that people have to try to reconcile this. And so you've got these weird
17:53splits and divisions, but in the new apostolic reformation today, you've got all these apostolic
17:58networks that are kind of feeding this. So you have, you have the potential for a much bigger mess
18:04than we even see today. If it continues in the same pathway, I think the easiest way to say it
18:10is if you
18:10begin an error, you will end in error. And what we see here was beginning an error. So I want
18:16to explore
18:16the area now of personal identity, because this gets to the core of it, because that's the heart of why
18:22people cannot let go and start new lives, you know, after they've seen errors. It goes even beyond
18:30cognitive dissonance, that initial discomfort that you're feeling. It goes down to the heart now.
18:36Not only do you have the mind trying to reconcile conflicting information, but now your very identity
18:43of who you are is being threatened. And that creates an even stronger response to stay within the group.
18:51So over time, when you get into these groups, you know, your belief shifts from what you're first
18:59presented and say, you might come out and say, I believe this. And over time, this belief system
19:06where you say, I believe this becomes, this is who I am. And we used to sing a song of
19:13the message,
19:14who I am, Lord, who I am, I can see now who I am. I'm part of my Savior, I'm
19:20part of his word,
19:22his predestination, it's a revelation of who I am. That, that is what it becomes. And
19:30if, if the, if the thing they were holding on to was truth, that would be one thing. But when
19:35you're
19:36holding on to a false religion, when you become that, then it's your very identity. So early on,
19:43when a prophecy is brought forth, it's usually an idea that people may have, I think this is true.
19:50But over time, in the group itself, with, with a false prophecy that is still held on to,
19:57you're saying, I'm one of the people who knows the truth. The belief is not external anymore.
20:04It's internal, internalized at that point. And prophecies within the groups that we're
20:09talking about, and this goes for other things, the beliefs, it's a marker of their spiritual insight.
20:16Because now they say, we, we, we have the true revelation and insight that only the elect's going
20:22to receive. And also to get along to the person's ego, the pride, it's a badge of belonging.
20:31And it's also gives them a dividing line between us and them. It always becomes in the Christian
20:37world, we're the elite believers, and the rest of the, the Christian world is outside of that. So
20:44it's an us and them thing. Never should have been that. A wall is erected where we cannot cross over
20:51and fellowship with other Christians, if you're in the message. You can have acquaintances,
20:57but you'll never fellowship. Because their experience is totally different from yours,
21:02since you're outside the gospel, for one thing. And in the message, for instance, all we did was look
21:09upon other Christians with pity, and wonder why they can't believe the message of the hour. Well,
21:14obviously, there's only an elect that would do that. So therefore, you've put a wall. But Paul's,
21:20Paul's gospel breaks down the wall. So these gospels that are false build walls. Paul's gospel
21:27broke down walls between Jew and Gentile. And they were totally different people groups.
21:32And even after Christianity came, there was things still different about them. The Jews didn't always
21:38live as Gentiles. And the Gentiles certainly didn't live as Jews. But yet they were Christians. And yet
21:44they had fellowship with one another. They weren't separated. God broke down the walls. So when you
21:50have groups building walls again, you can automatically say, well, they've departed from the gospel.
21:58So once that happens, you know, rejecting the prophecy would require you to reject your total
22:04identity around it, because you said, this is who I am. You know, the prophecy also becomes a source of
22:11meaning and purpose in your life. Well, 1977 has come and gone. But we're still looking for Los Angeles
22:18to fall into the sea. We're still looking for the manifestation of the sons of God, or
22:25the tent vision to be fulfilled, or some other thing to be fulfilled. Or even some people say,
22:30William Branham's coming back, being raised from the dead to fulfill these prophecies, to shoot the
22:34brown bear, to, you know, have the tent ministry, to speak the word, whatever it might be. So it's our
22:41meaning and purpose in life where we're holding on to these things, and we're not letting go of them.
22:47You know, the false prophecy, when they believe it is true, gives people a sense of being chosen.
22:53It gives them clarity in this confusing world we live in, because it can be very confusing. It also
22:59gives them extraordinary significance in this ordinary life. You know, members are no longer living day to
23:07day. They actually believe they're watchmen. They believe they're end-time believers. They believe
23:15they are bearers of hidden truth that's been hid from thousands of years back.
23:21I can say one thing about the truth they do believe, which is not truth, but the things
23:27they do believe did come from many, many years back, from a lot of esoteric things and, I guess,
23:35what you might say, esoteric metaphysics, metaphysical things. So they do have, they are a watchman of
23:45prophecies or beliefs that were long ago resurrected, you know, in this time. But when prophecy fails,
23:53the person is not risking losing their prediction to just say, oh, it just failed. They risk losing all.
24:02Their whole purpose, their whole meaning, their whole spiritual importance.
24:06So when you risk all of that because your prophecy failed and you now have identified and said, this
24:11is who I am, there you go. The cost of losing all of that, easily you'll find a way to
24:19explain your
24:20way out of it. The cost of admitting error just seems existential. And I want to say that to mean,
24:29it suggests that the consequences of acknowledging a mistake are so severe or fundamental that they
24:36feel threatening to your very existence or your identity or your core self. So that's the first
24:43thing. Another thing is, well, that's the second thing. The third thing is social identity.
24:49You know, it locks the belief in place when you're identifying with it and you have a social network.
24:57So the identity to these things and holding on to false prophecy is reinforced that way through
25:03friendships, through family ties, through marriage, even employment. Because we know that
25:09in some message churches, they provide employment for the people and your very spiritual life.
25:15They're intertwined with this belief. So leaving the prophecy, if it were false,
25:21will mean you lose all that community. You lose all your social relationships. You could lose your
25:25family. It also means that you've got to come out publicly and say, I was wrong. And that's hard to
25:34do. Becoming one of the ones that fell away. And you need to come back to the truth. So people
25:42aren't
25:42just choosing here between truth and error. They're choosing, if they have to leave the prophecy,
25:50they're choosing to whether they belong to a group or whether they're going to find themselves in
25:54isolation. And it's a scary prospect. And that's why psychological support groups are very necessary
26:01for people coming out of these groups. That's why we need a strong support network to encourage
26:08believers that come out of these groups. Because a lot of times we're many miles away.
26:11We don't have direct contact. But there is support out there. And people need to look for it. So
26:19fourth, you know, their sacrifices turns the belief into self-justification. You know,
26:25the more you sacrifice for the group, for this prophecy they're holding up, the more central it
26:31becomes to your identity. So that sacrifice could be money. You know, I know many of us in the message
26:38believed it so strongly. We just were willing to know that the Lord was coming so soon that we're
26:43going to give away a lot of our money because we want to see the message proclaimed. We want to
26:48see
26:49people come into the group and we know there's a reward for doing so. We don't do it for the
26:55reward,
26:56but we do it because we believe in it so strongly. Now, it's sad to find out that all the
27:03things that
27:04you invested in that later may not be the reward you were thinking of. And, you know, at the time
27:12we
27:12believed it, but now that we find out, we're sometimes very disappointed. But these sacrifices
27:19cause you to bind yourself to the belief system. You're not willing to lose your investment.
27:24The time, there's a sacrifice of time. We've gave huge amounts of our time to thinking about this
27:31message, trying to figure it out, trying to not, trying to understand all the contradictions on the
27:36tapes, trying to understand what does he really say and what am I to believe? We listen to tapes
27:42over and over. I was involved in this a long, long time ago, back when we had floppy disks that
27:49were five and a quarter. I transcribed one of the sermons. Somebody asked me, I was asked to transcribe
27:55the resurrection of Lazarus that William Brandon preached. And I spent many hours doing that
28:01and then submitted the document so that it could be uploaded to the, you know, the message search
28:07platform. Many of us printed messages. Many of us copied tapes over and over and sent them to the
28:15foreign fields. I know our church did that quite a bit. Also within the message, you tend to choose
28:23the career that's going to put you in close proximity to a church. And unfortunately, at the time,
28:28there's not many. They're very scattered. So you had to choose areas that would put you in close
28:33enough proximity to a church. So it limited maybe your career opportunities. You turned down
28:38opportunities or career paths because you couldn't be near a church. So you've got that investment.
28:47Now, you've also got your reputation to consider. You know, we had to first come out and say we were
28:54fanatic. And when I first came out and believed the message, I was seen as somebody on the outside,
29:01a fanatic, you know, somebody that was just out of his mind. But now, if we find that the prophecy
29:11is
29:11false, we've got to now back that up. We've got to backtrack and say all that we did to become
29:19a
29:19fanatic in one sense, we're now having to become a fanatic for another reason. We're now having to
29:27admit that we were wrong. So our reputation's at stake here. A lot of us are not willing to give
29:33up. So for those things that we've got invested, that we've sacrificed our very lives, and the bulk
29:40of our lives, bulk of our productive lives, admitting the prophecy was false and admitting the message is
29:49wrong or admitting the group that I'm in is wrong would mean that you have to admit that I gave
29:54up years
29:54of my life for nothing. And to avoid that conclusion, the mind will work hard to reinterpret
30:02that failure of that prophecy or whatever you're looking at as false doctrine or whatever it might
30:08be. To look at it as right or to reinterpret the failure rather than abandon your belief.
30:15Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern
30:20Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements
30:25into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's
30:32website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research
30:39of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,
30:46audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation
30:52on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause,
30:58you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top. And as always,
31:04be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
31:09On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
31:14I've mentioned this a few times, and I don't think it can be mentioned enough. As I was trying to
31:20deprogram from all of this stuff that was in my head, and trying to understand the Bible, because
31:26what we were taught the Bible said, in many cases, was not what the Bible said. So I began reading
31:32the
31:33Bible over and over, trying to read it for myself and not for what I was told that it said.
31:38And it reads
31:39differently if you do that. We were reading it through the lens of somebody else's opinion.
31:44And often those opinions just really didn't match. And so I began doing this. And one of the things
31:49that was most surprising to me, I've mentioned this before, reading the New Testament, one of the sins
31:54that is mentioned the most is pride. I was a little bit surprised at this, because in the message
32:02movement, and all of the movements that stemmed from it, there is an indoctrinated sense of pride
32:09to be part of the movement. You are prideful that you are in the movement. And you are prideful that
32:15you're not like the church down the road. It is exactly like you said, it's an us versus them
32:19mentality. We're the elite, they're the ones that are not. And I'm prideful because of this.
32:25And yet pride is a sin. So how do you reconcile this? And I struggled with that quite a bit,
32:31because I did not know how to overcome this. I was prideful. I was arrogant. I was not a good
32:37person.
32:38And I came to terms with the fact that the movement had made me not a good person. From birth,
32:44I was raised to be like this. And why is that? Why would you want to be like this? And
32:50then I started
32:51thinking about how difficult it is for people to leave the movement. And I was surprised even more
32:58whenever I learned the first prophecy that I had encountered that had failed, and there were many,
33:04but the first one that I found, I put it on the, I had like a little note system that
33:10eventually became
33:11my website. I put it up on the website, and I thought everybody would just leave, because why would
33:17we believe in a false prophet? That's how my mind was wired. If it's not true, it's not true. We
33:22walk
33:22away. But people stayed. And I could not figure out why is this. And I came to terms with the
33:29fact that
33:30it is because of the indoctrinated pride. It takes a lot of humility to admit you were wrong, and to
33:37admit
33:38that you believed in something that was wrong. And the only way that you can make something wrong sound
33:44true is to engage in circular reasoning. Yes, it's wrong. But yes, he also had every single detail
33:52correct. But at the same time, he was wrong. You go in the circle countless times, and anybody who has
33:59encountered not just the message cult, but any of the others who are built on prophecies that didn't
34:04really happen, that's the first thing they say. Why do they do that? You'll enter into a conversation,
34:10and it begins the circular reasoning process. Why is this? And I have, like I said, I've come to terms
34:16with the fact that it is just simply pride. And it takes a lot for a person to humble their
34:21pride.
34:22When prophecy fails, you know, reinterpreting that is very easy. And it is a psychological self-defense
34:29mechanism that we do naturally. We naturally, when first confronted, that's why you never want to
34:35confront somebody and just blast them with the truth. Because they will just put up defense mechanisms
34:43automatically. They'll bring the wall up, and then it's over. Your common responses to these things when
34:49you've put up that wall is that, well, it was fulfilled spiritually, or it didn't come to pass in 1977
34:55or 1914
34:56or 1844 because God was delaying judgment. He was extending His mercy. Or we just misunderstood the timing.
35:06Or our faith actually changed the outcome of this because we're the bride. We're still here, and we're holding
35:13back judgments. So these explanations help to preserve our identity. It helps us say that, well, I wasn't wrong.
35:23None of us want to be wrong. It helps us to say we weren't deceived. We still know the truth,
35:30or that
35:31we're still special. And this truth that they hold on to becomes the truth that's actually there, the
35:38reality of it. It's always secondary to their self-preservation and the preservation of all these
35:44things.
35:44Darrell Bock There's another aspect to this as well. I think you and I have mentioned it in
35:48weaponized religion, but cognitive dissonance does play a factor. There are people who suddenly
35:55encounter something that is wrong, whether it's a failed prophecy or a doctrine that's incorrect,
36:00and the divine messenger's message has critical flaws. They'll encounter it, but they try to reconcile
36:09it because in this belief system, if you're believing that the person speaking is anointed by God
36:16and that the words coming out of their mouth are from God, then what happens is whenever something
36:22is said that is incorrect, you try to reconcile it. Yes, that's incorrect, but look at this other
36:27thing. And there's a deflection that happens, and then the deflection becomes the answer to the problem,
36:33and it turns into a type of circular reasoning. But what it is, the brain is trying to reconcile
36:38two polar opposite things and make them fit together. An example of this, I was talking to a guy,
36:44and for those who don't know, William Branham, part of his stage persona was that he was born on a
36:51specific date, and a mystic woman had accounted for his date in her study of the stars and the moons
37:01and the planets and said, did you know you're born under a sign? And that ministry was tied to his
37:06Moses
37:07ministry. He would say, as Moses was given two signs, so am I given two signs. That year that he
37:13gave us
37:14his birth year was 1909, so the stars and the planets 1909. But yet, in his Elijah ministry, it was
37:21a bit
37:21different. He said Dowie was born on one day, John Alexander Dowie. Dowie died on one day, I was born
37:27the
37:27next. Well, that year is 1907. So his Elijah ministry, as an Elisha to John Alexander Dowie's Elijah, would be
37:351907. Both dates can't be true. And if you take away one, you take away his Elijah ministry. If you
37:41take away the
37:41other one, you take away his Moses ministry. And then at the same time, the government records don't
37:46match either of those dates. So I was talking to this person, and I said, well, he can't be born
37:51in
37:51both years. It's impossible for a person to be born in two separate years. And the guy actually responded
37:57to me, I don't understand it, John, but I believe every word the prophet said. And there's nothing you
38:03can say to this. People ask me, how do you interact with somebody who's doing this? Well, there is simply
38:10no
38:10way. Once logic is disconnected from the brain, and cognitive dissonance is causing the speech to be
38:17incoherent, there is not a way that you're going to convince a person that, no, that's not possible,
38:23my friend, you cannot be born in two different years. But sadly, that does play a factor. And
38:30it's really hard to watch. I feel really a lot of pain for people who are trapped in this kind
38:36of
38:37ministry, because they themselves can't really easily get out. It takes a lot of work to reconcile
38:45the pride that's in their head and all of the mental, psychological effects that this type of
38:51movement has on them. Again, I totally agree. And I just say that this is a very interesting material
38:58here we're covering today. It's a great background, and it really hits at the core. You know, I'm glad
39:04this research was done, because all these things are not my original ideas, but I can sure relate to
39:10everything that's being said, everything I've read in this book, everything that held me to the group I
39:18was in all those years. I can readily identify with that. I think everybody else can too, that's come out
39:25of it. But now we're going to go into a couple of other things, point six and seven, about why
39:30it's
39:31so powerful. You know, once the belief becomes your identity, you know, the reason you can hold
39:39on to it, why it's so powerful, you can so powerfully hold on to it, is because when you bring
39:44evidence
39:44before people that are in these groups, then it automatically feels like an attack on them.
39:51You know, your questions within the group, if you're within the group and questioning,
39:55to the people in the group that believe it, it feels like you're betraying them. You feel like
39:59a Judas, and they think of you as a Judas. Either by you questioning, or even if they were to
40:07question,
40:07they would themselves feel like they were betraying the group. And then the doubt, it makes them feel
40:14like they're a moral failure. Especially, as we said, when they got so much invested in it.
40:21So the person is no longer protecting the idea. At that point, they've abandoned the fact. And the
40:27facts may speak for themselves. And they say, this prophecy was not true. I, I understand that.
40:32William Randall lied. I understand that. Now, it shifts. They're not protecting that anymore. They can
40:39discard that. But they're protecting themselves. That's why clear disproof of any prophecy often
40:47fails to convince anyone in the group. Logic alone, you know, critical thinking alone does not persuade
40:55them. And confrontation to them, it only hardens their belief in it. And eventually, they'll turn
41:03you off altogether. And they won't speak to you. So number seven, here's the tragic irony of all this.
41:11You know, false prophecy is claiming to offer certainty, security, and truth, you know, to the
41:20believer. When it was originally proclaimed as prophecy, it gave the believer something to hold
41:25on to that because they believe the person to be a prophet, it gave them certainty, security, and truth.
41:32But then when it becomes identity, and your very identity, then it becomes, it traps you in fear.
41:42And the fear of being wrong when it's determined to be false. The fear of loss because of all your
41:48investment. And the fear of the collapse of your very being. The very thing that promised the meaning
41:55in their lives now demands their loyalty at all costs and at the cost of being honest with
42:03themselves. So now they become dishonest with themselves. Now they're forced to defend the
42:10group out of fear. Now they are forced to deny who they really are and be absorbed into the group.
42:20And they now live a lie after that. Prior to that, I could say we could excuse all the times
42:29we
42:29believed it because we knew no better. When somebody lies to you and you repeat it, you don't know that
42:37you're lying because you're sincerely believing it and you have no evidence to the contrary.
42:42But once that contrary evidence comes to play, all these factors we've mentioned today, you know,
42:49play a key role in keeping you there. So it's a very important statement to say that people are
42:56now living a lie because there's so much dishonesty, I would say, in the message. Now it's just mind
43:02blowing. Ministers intentionally are dishonest nowadays, really to protect themselves at all costs.
43:10You know, they give themselves the freedom now to tell lies because William Branham told lies and
43:15because they say Abraham told a lie. And they know for a fact and will admit that William Branham
43:24lied about things. It's very dangerous, I would say, to be in the message nowadays for that very freedom
43:30because Paul warns us to lie not one to another. You know, don't lie one to another. But message
43:37ministers will, many will excuse themselves if they tell lies because they believe it's an
43:44acceptable practice in Scripture. And I think they're very wrong about that. But so in their
43:50position as pastor, they're actually given many things of power. They're given the keys to the
43:55treasury. And a lot of them manage it to their own benefit. Churches, and the ones that I know about,
44:02they're not run totally transparently where finances are concerned. And this is another
44:07danger. You know, the church that say I was a part of for over 10 years, never published
44:11not one thing about how much money was collected, about how much the pastor made, about how much was
44:19given to missions or anything else. We gave our money religiously dedicated, but we never heard
44:27anything about it. Now, we did hold a camp meeting once a year, and the amount given in those offerings
44:33was mentioned. But in our day-to-day giving in the church, nothing was ever transparent.
44:41And that's unfortunate. The men controlling the money may have been trustworthy. You know,
44:47this church may have been trustworthy. But nowadays, it's unheard of to have finances so hidden from
44:53public view. Because nowadays, we know with all the corruption that has been shown over the years,
45:00every church should be transparent. The church I go to now publishes a statement at least twice a year
45:07about where every single dollar and penny goes, down to the pastor's salary, to the pastor's
45:14retirement, how much they're given to that, how much they're given to missions, how much they're given
45:18to various ministries. So, these churches should be transparent. There's no reason not to be,
45:26unless you're trying to hide something. But for many churches in the message and others, it invites
45:32men to become corrupt, and hoard the money, and to use the money wrongly. And we saw this case
45:39recently of the pastor down, you would probably know where it is, I can't think of where it is.
45:46Because he hoarded $28 million. And he was only forced to bring that out when the country was
45:54going to change the currency. Now, why was a pastor hoarding $28 million in funds given over the years?
46:01What was he going to do with that? Why wasn't he using it to further the message? Why wasn't he
46:06using it to give to missionaries who needed bread and water on the field, or shoes, or transportation,
46:14or Bibles, or you name it? Why was $28 million hoarded? I can think of the camp meetings we came
46:24out of, we might collect anywhere from $80,000 to $250,000 at the most, after every camp meeting,
46:32once a year. But this man had $28 million in boxes, in cash, that he wasn't doing anything with.
46:42Now, how can you say a message pastor really believes what he is proclaiming? You know,
46:51if any pastor would think, only what I need to live on would I take, and I needed to give
46:58the
46:58rest to benefit somebody, to benefit the gospel. But he obviously doesn't believe the gospel he's
47:05preaching, holding on to $28 million.
47:07I grew up hearing sermon after sermon after sermon from a preacher talking about the five-fold
47:13ministry, how God sent prophets, apostles, evangelists, teachers, and preachers, and
47:19these offices are ordained by God, and you touch not God's anointed. You can't question these people
47:26because God is speaking through them. And then there weren't the five. William Branham was really
47:32all of them. If you, you know, if you account the teacher, the preacher who's saying it, you really
47:37have a two-fold ministry. But the preacher who's saying it is often just quoting Branham. So in
47:43effect, you've got a one-fold ministry preached as a five-fold. But look how it developed into
47:49what we see today. You have these apostles who aren't apostling. The word apostle means to go out.
47:56You're going out. You're sent as basically as an evangelist, but an evangelist with the authority
48:02of having seen Jesus. None of them are doing this. They're not really upholding their office.
48:08And yet all of this money is coming in. The money is coming in to further the gospel,
48:14quote-unquote further the gospel. But what do you see? You see bigger buildings. You see bigger
48:19containment units for the people going to the church, not the actual spreading of the gospel.
48:23So if the mission is to have a five-fold ministry where the gospel is being spread until Jesus
48:29returns, how is that spreading the gospel? How in any way, shape, or form is this doing it?
48:37I know that there are some, even in the Branham religion, there are missionaries. I'm not saying
48:42that there aren't. But in many cases, I would say in most cases, it's usually the minister who's
48:48speaking who is bettering himself by the money that's coming in. I don't see a whole
48:53lot of it going anywhere. This is a problem for me. And it was a problem that I had just
49:00even
49:01regionally. Think of a church in a city. If you believe that every other church was wrong,
49:06which is what they teach, every other church is wrong. I have the truth and it is my truth and
49:11my church that makes our church go to heaven and join into this rapture theology. We're going to go to
49:19the rapture while every other church stays here to suffer. If you really had this, you would be
49:25knocking down the doors of the other churches trying to save those people. You don't see this. You don't
49:31see the money being applied to do this. For me, it's a huge problem. So the bottom line here,
49:37we're coming down to the end. Commitment to the false prophecy endures because abandonment would be
49:44these things, rewriting your own life's history, your own life story. You're essentially like those
49:50who I would think are in the government's witness protection program. You actually have to get a
49:55brand new identity. You actually have to start over if you abandon the prophecy. Also, you are
50:01surrendering your cherished identity. For many, the fellowship and the relationships and the movement
50:08we're not all bad. You know, we had some good, wholesome fellowship, healthy, and it melt our
50:15needs as a human being. But you would have to surrender all that. And you face a painful loss
50:22in your life. It's true for anything we have to let go of in our lives that had a high
50:28impact once,
50:29we all suffer by leaving that. And so for many, that feels harder than just taking the prophecy
50:36and reinterpreting it. That's so much easier. And that's why many, many have not left and why many
50:43have not let their minds even question or let alternative thoughts in. So, John, I think we've
50:49laid the foundation here and for what is to come in the next episode. You know, when we present our
50:55obvious, the obvious failures of prophecies, you know, people will no longer have to wonder why the
51:00followers, you know, don't immediately leave in droves and droves and find new churches to go to.
51:06It's because of what we've presented today. Unless they experience that triggering event,
51:12their minds will just stay locked in and controlled, and they'll just want to avoid the pain
51:17like we all do. So what I believe they fail to realize, though, even if you show them the gospel
51:23that they preach is a false gospel or a pseudo gospel, which is no gospel at all, you know, the
51:29ministers and lay people have just not come to the place yet where they can see that following the
51:35true gospel is far better. Most believe they follow Christ in the message we came out of because
51:41they'll say Christ is the message. But as we've shown in other podcasts, you know, the Christ of
51:45the Bible, the Word, you know, is not the same as they're promoting. You know, what it shows is that
51:53they would rather hold on to what has made them comfortable in life. What they've invested their life
51:58into, what they've given their lives over to is better than taking the costlier, harder way
52:04of the true gospel. So I look at it this way, and I think of men like John Bunyan. If
52:11you go back just
52:12a few hundred years, he stood for Christ rather than take the easy way out, you know, and then what
52:19he
52:19endured because of that. You know, leaving the message is far easier in this day than what John Bunyan
52:26experienced in his day. You know, Bunyan was a prison for unlicensed preaching. All it was was
52:32preaching, and it was under what was called the Conventical Act. It was related to Restoration
52:37Era laws enforcing conformity to the Church of England. And remember, the Church of England was
52:43started after Henry VIII broke away from the Catholic Church to start his own church. But he refused to
52:50stop preaching back in that day without the state approval. So listen to what he had to endure.
52:55Because of that, he had to endure 12 years and six months of prison. His first imprisonment was
53:03for 12 years altogether. And the second time he was in prison because he wouldn't stop preaching was
53:07about six months. But look at the personal cost to John Bunyan. He could have taken the easier way.
53:14He could have let all the things that he had invested in his life to supersede the truth.
53:22His wife and children had to suffer severe hardships because he wasn't there as the breadwinner.
53:28His daughter, one of his daughters, Mary, she was blind. So think of the care that she needed.
53:35That weighed heavily on him and as frequently he mentions it in his reflections.
53:40But still, he chose to remain in prison. He could have gained release at any time if he just promised
53:48to stop preaching. Stop preaching the gospel, John Bunyan, and you can go back to your family
53:54and you can make a living and have a good life. But he refused. He viewed the imprisonment
54:00as obedience to Christ rather than rebellion against the state.
54:05So in this day, when we present believers, say in the message, with contrary facts to what
54:12they're believing, and they choose to hold on to the message rather than just leaving and
54:17starting a new beginning, then they're not seeing obedience to Christ better than remaining
54:25in a pseudo-Christian religion. It really is a shame. And they're not going to have to experience
54:31prison for leaving. They would have hardships because we're going to have that. But serving
54:40Christ is not always easy. And Jesus never did promise us a rose garden all our lives or the
54:47comforts of being around friends and family. Sometimes we do have to take the harder road.
54:53And so I would leave it with that. You know, choose this day whom you will serve.
54:59Well, that's very good advice. And that's where my family was in 2012. We had to make a choice.
55:04And I think every single person, whether you're in the Branham group or one of the others that we're
55:08talking about, every single person has to come to that place where they have to make a decision.
55:13Am I going to choose the easy path and stay in this error? Or am I going to take the
55:18much harder path
55:19and come out of the error? And sadly, there are people who make the conscious decision,
55:25I'm going to stay in the error because it is much easier. So it's a sad truth. And I feel
55:31I feel real
55:32pain for people who are stuck in it because I know exactly how hard it is to come out. And
55:37I know what
55:37you face whenever you face that decision. I faced it myself. So if you've enjoyed our show and you want
55:43more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org.
55:47For more information about Roy Davis and William Branham, you can read The Persuasive Preacher,
55:52The Gifted Prophet, and The Noble Politician. And for more about the dark side of the New
55:56Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.
56:01Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:21Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible. And for more information, you can find us at william-branham.com.
57:08For more information, you can find us at william-branham.com.
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