The Gospel of Confusion in the NAR | Grace with Conviction | Podcast Episode 615 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John talks with Peter and Amanda Hartzell of Grace with Conviction about leaving New Apostolic Reformation theology, recognizing the difference between biblical Christianity and religious hype, and learning to read Scripture without fear-based manipulation. Their story traces connections between the Latter Rain movement, IHOPKC, Bethel, Sean Feucht, the house of prayer model, prophetic ministry culture, and the works-based systems that often replace the finished work of Christ.  The conversation explores how phrases like Tabernacle of David, touch not the Lord's anointed, Jezebel spirit, anointing, spiritual warfare, and revival can become buzzwords that obscure Scripture instead of clarifying it. John, Peter, and Amanda discuss biblical literacy, false authority structures, the problem of untouchable leaders, and the freedom that comes when Christians rest in Christ rather than chasing power, influence, signs, wonders, or spiritual status.  00:00 Introduction 01:04 Peter And Amanda Begin Their Story 03:36 Seeing Cracks In Hyper-Charismatic And Word Of Faith Teaching 05:33 IHOP, House Of Prayer Models, And Works-Based Religion 08:47 The Old Testament, Christ, And The Tabernacle Of David 13:15 John Responds: Bible Words Turned Into Marketing 15:42 Biblical Literacy And Personality-Driven Ministry 21:22 Fear, End-Times Pressure, And Religious Whiplash 23:06 Militant Youth Culture And Man-Centered Spiritual Warfare 26:35 Curved Inward: Self, Sin, And The NAR 30:55 Using The Things Of God For Self 32:21 Luther, Sin, And The Fear-Based Religion Of The Message 34:28 House Of Prayer Claims And Misused Scripture 36:43 “Touch Not The Lord’s Anointed” And Old Testament Context 39:20 Mission Over People And Untouchable Leaders 41:07 Fear Words, Accountability, And Protecting Systems 45:04 Confusion As A Gospel Substitute 47:01 Azusa Street, Buzzword Preaching, And Anti-Intellectual Ministry Culture 48:46 Sermons Built Around Catchphrases 52:04 Finding Rest In Christ After Leaving Works-Based Religion 54:28 Network Marketing, Tony Robbins, New Thought, And Familiar Spirits 58:01 Where To Find Grace With Conviction 59:43 Closing And Resources ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guests, Peter and Amanda Hartsell,

00:00:46former members of the NAR and hosts of the Grace with Conviction Podcast. Peter, Amanda,

00:00:52it's good to have you on and to share your story of all of these intricate connections

00:00:57that you have with New Apostolic Reformation. Maybe if you could begin by just telling

00:01:01everybody a little bit about yourself and your podcast.

00:01:04Yeah, well, thanks for having us on. I know it's been kind of a journey for us to get here.

00:01:10It's taken quite a while. I think we were connected almost like three or four months ago,

00:01:15and so it's finally good to talk to you. It's interesting, too, because when we were going

00:01:21through our Reformation, anyone that's watched any of our podcasts knows that our spiritual

00:01:26Reformation started around 2018, which is ironic because it seems like that's a timeline when a

00:01:33lot of people are saying that the Lord started to open their eyes right around 2018. I don't know

00:01:37what was going on then, but the Lord was doing something then. And I saw a couple of your podcast

00:01:44episodes specifically on William Branham as I started to research the roots of the NAR. And so I think a

00:01:52lot

00:01:52of the resources that you were putting out were very helpful in framing and context as we were starting

00:02:00to dismantle the construction of our belief systems. What were the building blocks that our belief system

00:02:10was built on? Not that we had formulated. Where did it come from? I was born into a church that

00:02:18was

00:02:18hyper influenced by the latter rain movement, Pentecostalism, vineyard movement, all of that,

00:02:28the Jesus movement. And, you know, so when you're raised in that environment, you just sort of pick

00:02:34up where they start or where they're at, and you don't really understand what those building blocks

00:02:38were. And so understanding the history of William Branham and the NAR and starting to learn about

00:02:46C. Peter Wagner and all that really was beneficial. So I want to start off, first of all, by saying

00:02:53thank you for your faithfulness, John. Thank you for, you know, being willing to really do the deep

00:03:00dives and the research and help. It's a really, it's a service to the church, you know, helping the

00:03:06church to understand, you know, we call something an error. We call something a heresy. But if we just

00:03:14throw those terms around without being able to define what that actually means or why it's error,

00:03:19why it's heresy, why doesn't it harmonize with scripture? Well, then it's just baseless claims.

00:03:24And that's really the only ammunition that they have is you're just throwing baseless claims at us,

00:03:29right? So what is the root of our, like, you want to talk about where kind of how we got

00:03:35to where we

00:03:35are? Well, I mean, yeah, I think that we were encouraged. My dad and stepmom had begun to

00:03:43see the cracks in the very hyper charismatic word of faith movement. The Lord had begun to really

00:03:50open their eyes. And through that and our conversations with them, they began to feed us

00:03:55resources such as like the first American gospel film, as well as Carol Matriciana has a White as

00:04:03the Gate series that they also lent us that we watched. And just through those resources, the Lord

00:04:08really used those to open our eyes. And so the White as the Gate series helped explain why these

00:04:16movements were erroneous, what they claimed, what the word claimed, and why the two are not compatible.

00:04:22And then the American gospel first film helped present the gospel to us, I think, for probably

00:04:30the first time. And that helped us realize that the gospel that had been sold to us through these,

00:04:37through whether it be through the NAR or the various streams that run out of that,

00:04:44we had been sold something. We had been sold a different gospel in another Jesus, very much so.

00:04:50As Jesse Westwood puts it, we've been sold a cheap bill of goods.

00:04:54Exactly.

00:04:55That's the way that he said it. And I completely agree. It was like a form of godliness, but it

00:05:01denied the power of the gospel. It was like, it looked like script, like gospel messaging. It used

00:05:07Jesus language. It used biblical language, but it really didn't have the power of the gospel. It

00:05:12wasn't salvific. It was like this illusion. The allure was power and control and influence and

00:05:21meaning and purpose and significance in a spiritual sense. But we get that spiritual significance through

00:05:27Christ, not through our efforts and not through our networks and our formats. And a lot of times we

00:05:35see what happened at IHOP with Mike Bickle falling, there's a big push and there's something I'd like

00:05:40to talk about a little today. Well, the IHOP house of prayer model isn't the problem. Mike Bickle was a

00:05:47bad guy. What he did was bad, but that doesn't mean that the whole model is wrong or problematic.

00:05:52And I think if you look at scripture, you can argue that point all day long. But that was the

00:05:58thing is

00:05:59that it's like it looks godly. It looks good. But when you unpack it, when you pull out, lift up

00:06:06the hood and

00:06:06you start digging in, you realize there's no scriptural substance here. It's all man's effort.

00:06:13Well, yeah, it's a works-based religion a lot that comes out of NAR. It's just works-based. And like

00:06:20for me too,

00:06:21it's something that's been really helpful. And so since 2018, the Lord has really just been, since we really

00:06:26came to Christ, we actually came to salvation, saving faith through Christ alone. And then through

00:06:37that, through now that we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who now we can open the word

00:06:43and rightly divide it, rightly understand it, rightly apply it. As I've been working through

00:06:50the Old Testament, something I never did, I'm beginning to see these phrases, these ideas that I

00:06:56would so often hear espoused by these NAR teachers, that I'm like, that is not what that means. That is

00:07:04not

00:07:05at all what that's getting at. That's not like someone who loves, truly loves the Lord. Someone who

00:07:15calls out false teaching for what it is. Someone who does that, who desires the pure word of God to

00:07:23go

00:07:23forth, does not have the Jezebel spirit. Like, I don't think you guys know who, like when you read

00:07:29the story about who Jezebel was and what she stood for and how she hated God, like that's not, you

00:07:37know,

00:07:37and so now like I read things like that and I'm like, oh, that's, oh my goodness. You just see

00:07:42the way

00:07:43that they twist these and they rely on the people who sit there, who don't read the word, who don't

00:07:52know

00:07:52how to rightly divide it, to rightly understand it. And so you just, I mean, I know we were a

00:07:58product

00:07:59of that. So you just sit and you hear these buzzwords and it does, it elicits a lot of fear,

00:08:04which now you learn is a control tactic. It's a way to control. It's a way to protect. It's a

00:08:10way to

00:08:10shield. There's no accountability. There's no, you know, and so it's just, it's been really in very

00:08:17eye-opening to be reading through the Old Testament because it's just something I'd never,

00:08:22never done. And the Lord has just really, it's, it's been just beautiful. The, the, just the Lord

00:08:32has really been using it to help me see things a lot clearer and understand who he is and how

00:08:38the

00:08:39whole of scripture is constantly pointing to Christ. It's not pointing to us. It's not about us.

00:08:44The whole of it is constantly pointing to the coming Messiah, the Old Testament in the NAR and

00:08:51in the prayer room model, the house of prayer model, the Old Testament is where we go to find

00:08:56obscure language and ideas that we can then use to translate into New Testament church models and

00:09:04apply them to our day-to-day operating. And so that's where problems come in as we start talking

00:09:09about like tabernacle of David. But if you completely, if you don't understand the old

00:09:14covenant model and the old, the, uh, the tabernacle and the purpose of it, and then you don't understand

00:09:20that Christ is the fulfillment of that, that he is the anointed one. And that when we are in Christ,

00:09:26we are of the true vine. We are all one in Christ. And so we're not separated by, uh, by

00:09:34sin the way that

00:09:35we were beforehand because Christ, uh, uh, substitute, uh, sufficient substitutionary

00:09:41atonement, uh, made the way for us to be reunited with him, but it is only through Christ. And so

00:09:48if

00:09:48you don't understand that the old Testament is pointing to Christ and then the new Testament is

00:09:54pointing back to Christ and, and, and it's the fulfillment and that we are living in that

00:09:59fulfillment of that, then, then you can take old Testament ideas, obscure them, reframe them and

00:10:07build whatever you want. And that's where we have problems. I had a guy the other day from the Orlando

00:10:12house of prayer, uh, referencing that, you know, the tabernacle of David and all that. And just talking

00:10:18about how, well, see, see, this is what was modeled. And, and it's like, yeah, I mean, I get it.

00:10:23I

00:10:23understand why you think that way. Um, but just because those words are there doesn't mean that

00:10:28they're like always prescriptive. Sometimes they're, they're, they're descriptive of the way

00:10:32things were. And, and I mean, there's a lot of polygamy in the old Testament. That doesn't mean

00:10:37God endorses it. I mean, just because the words are there doesn't mean that it's like endorsed by

00:10:42God. It just is, you know, just because Saul was anointed King didn't mean that God's spirit

00:10:47remained with him. He was actually God allowed him to be tormented by evil spirits, even though he was

00:10:53anointed King, that anointing didn't translate into the, the indwelling of the Holy spirit and

00:10:59being empowered by the spirit of God, like David was. So we can't just look at the anointing of

00:11:05Saul and be like, see, God anointed someone. See, we can be anointed by God for, and we can do

00:11:10no wrong.

00:11:11And it's, and that's where we get the people over or, or we get the, the ministry. Yeah. The

00:11:17ministry over people or what's the phrase, um, uh, yeah, mission over people or, or, uh, yeah,

00:11:25just those ideas. Yeah. And then that's where you get like, well, Hey, Mike Bickle failed,

00:11:29but listen, the mandate of the house of prayer is so much more important so we can cut him out,

00:11:34but we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. No, we got to evaluate the whole thing. We got

00:11:39to

00:11:39go back to where did that even start? What is, I mean, I know, I know the harp and bow

00:11:43model predates

00:11:44Mike Bickle, but it does not originate in acts. It doesn't go back to the new Testament, but to

00:11:49Timothy and Titus and first and second Corinthians, there's no biblical mandate or model for the house

00:11:55of prayer or for Davidic worship, or, you know, I mean like in, in the new Testament church, uh,

00:12:00church sense. So, um, I think that's something that we're very passionate about is like the,

00:12:05the purity of, uh, church, of biblical church structure, because if we don't have that,

00:12:12then we get caught up in like cult of personalities and well, it's just a, you get a yoke of

00:12:18bondage

00:12:18put on your, your neck ultimately. And now it's being like, no, like that's not what he requires

00:12:25of us. Like his yoke is easy. His burden is light. He's gentle and lowly of heart. That is how

00:12:31he

00:12:31describes himself. So all of these man-made ideas are just, it's no different than what the Pharisees

00:12:38were doing. They were adding to the law that then they themselves weren't even following.

00:12:43And so often, I mean, as in the case of IHOP, that's what kind of came out and the prescription

00:12:49of all these laws, but behind the scenes, they themselves weren't even following it. And so,

00:12:55yeah, it is just such a heart of, we know, we know a thing or two because we've seen a

00:13:01thing or two

00:13:03and by the grace of God, literally by the grace of God, we're still here. You know, we didn't walk,

00:13:09we didn't blame God for man's foolishness. So, yeah. So, so tell us, so John, like with all of

00:13:18that framed, like I'm, I'm really curious, like your perspective on that. Is the, is the house of

00:13:24prayer model a biblical mandate? Do you have an answer for that question? Cause I, I've been getting

00:13:29that a lot lately. Well, the funny part is my opinion is often the polar opposite of many of

00:13:35my peers. But for instance, whenever you said you've been sold a cheap bill of goods, I would

00:13:39argue, no, you were sold an expensive bill of goods, but it wasn't the real bill of goods

00:13:44because they do like to charge money for their bills of goods. That's true. Touche. So, yeah.

00:13:51Here's the problem that I have found. Whenever I started to wake up, there's this weird feeling. I

00:13:57don't know if you've probably seen the matrix. When you take the pill, suddenly you can't

00:14:00unsee what you've seen. When that happens and you're reading the Bible, you start to notice

00:14:07that they're not really preaching the Bible. They're just using Bible words, but they're

00:14:12using those words as buzzwords, not as what it actually means in the book. And so when they

00:14:17use things like tabernacle of David, well, that sounds biblical because that is a biblical

00:14:22phrase, the tabernacle of David, but they have taken the word and they've turned it

00:14:27into a buzzword or a phrase or a marketing scheme. You'll find billboards and banners

00:14:32with tabernacle of David, all of this stuff. And people, what happens is because your focus

00:14:39is on the buzzword or the marketing, instead of what it says in the Bible, you start to think

00:14:45that all of the things they're talking about is actually linked to the tabernacle of David

00:14:49or whatever is the keyword they're using. Over time, what happens is they totally lose

00:14:54focus of where the word actually came from and what it meant, and then children are raised.

00:15:00The children raise up. They have no idea what it means. They've never even heard what it

00:15:04means. The sad part about it is, which you've described and I've described the same thing,

00:15:09the first time you hear the gospel, you're like, wait a minute. We never actually heard

00:15:14that. Why didn't they just, why didn't they tell? And what they did was they actually took

00:15:19the gospel and they used it as a buzzword with a marketing campaign. So you go after

00:15:23the marketing campaigns, you dump a lot of money into it, you buy the books, you buy the

00:15:27videos, you buy the conference tickets, whatever it is. But you're so into that hype and that

00:15:32emotion, and it gives you this emotional high that makes you feel like you have something

00:15:36special. But then when you take a step back, all you have are buzzwords and marketing.

00:15:42John, you just made a great case for biblical literacy. If you don't know how to read the

00:15:47word and understand, if you have no biblical literacy, you're literally going to get tossed

00:15:51by every wind of doctrine. And that's exactly what we see happening. And in one sense, I

00:15:57guess you could say, if I wanted to play nice and be a little more generous than maybe I would

00:16:04want to be, I would say it's not totally your fault. It's not totally your fault. I understand.

00:16:09Again, I was raised in this world. I didn't know any better. I was just taught from day

00:16:15one, this is the gospel. And this is how you have a relationship with God. This is who Jesus

00:16:22was. This is why he had to die. And that's what it means for you. And when you don't have

00:16:28biblical literacy, what you get is a couple of things. You either get hyper grace, or you

00:16:33get a lot of law and control. And that's where you get the hyper controlling cults, or you

00:16:39get the super grace based cults, I guess you could say. You certainly get the cult of

00:16:44personality. And what's funny is that rarely do you ever see any of these houses of prayer

00:16:52or like ministry hub centers, prophetic ministry centers, prophetic ministries, whatever, where

00:16:59there isn't a figurehead. You know, it's like there's always the one guy or the husband and

00:17:05wife combo that are like the figurehead of each movement. And it's different than like

00:17:09a local church, a healthy local church. Like if I think about our local church, the church

00:17:15we attend, I don't think of the pastor and his wife as like, that's the representative

00:17:20of the church in our city. You know, in fact, most people don't even know who they are.

00:17:24You know, they, it's like the church is just this, it's this organism. And if you look at New

00:17:30Testament, the New Testament formula, if you want to call it or format for what a healthy church

00:17:38should look like, Timothy, Titus, all of that, there are clear parameters. Like if you want to

00:17:44be an elder, this is what it looks like. If you want to be a teacher, great. This is what

00:17:49it looks

00:17:49like. Stricter accountability, sober minded, husband and one wife, good reputation in the

00:17:55general public. People think well of you. You know, you're not riddled with scandal. You

00:18:00know, when I, when I overlay the biblical mandate for what an, what a biblical elder is. And then

00:18:05I, and then I filter, pick a, pick a name, Mike Bickle, uh, Todd White, Sean Bulls, Bill Johnson,

00:18:14Chris Vallotton, Steven Furtick. When you, when you weigh those people through the biblical

00:18:20filter of what is a biblical elder and what is the biblical order of the church and you

00:18:26filter them through it, they do not filter through. And so what are we doing? Are we,

00:18:30we're just going to say, well, but I like them. I like what they say. They make me feel good.

00:18:35It makes me feel powerful. It makes me feel like I can be rich like them or have power influence

00:18:40like them. And I like that. Everyone is doing what's right in their own eyes. That's what we're

00:18:46seeing. Everyone is doing what's right in their own eyes. We are ignoring God's word. We're ignoring

00:18:52what God says. This is how you should operate in order to function as fallible men and women.

00:18:59And so that you don't get one person that gets elevated above others and then sets everybody

00:19:04else off onto error and into, into wrong paths and wrong teachings and all that. If anyone

00:19:10comes to even, or even an angel comes to you preaching anything other than what we preach,

00:19:14let him be accursed. And that's what we see all the time. So all these people are like,

00:19:18ah, I've got this, I've got these Bible, Bible words, and then I'm going to apply these human

00:19:23principles, you know, new age, new thought, the secret, all of that power, power, positive

00:19:28thinking, prosperity gospel, uh, or just straight up new age. And they're just going to merge them

00:19:34together and make something that, that, that is going to be really marketable and look. And then

00:19:40they use the measure of their growth as the example of the success. Like, well, God must be blessing it

00:19:45because we're making lots of money. And, uh, or the president of the United States endorses my

00:19:50platform. So that must mean something good, right? He's God's man, right? He's God's man. So

00:19:56who can argue? Um, it's all right here, y'all. It's all right here. We don't need to look anywhere

00:20:03else. And, but I don't know. I, we are like, everyone is doing what's right in their own eyes.

00:20:08And so there's got to be, I mean, this is the purpose of the church. The purpose of the church

00:20:13is to establish, uh, and to, and to, uh, to establish accountability to scripture, to God's word,

00:20:23to establish a, uh, a place where God's word is upheld. And, and we don't do that. We do that

00:20:29with

00:20:29love because like, I love the truth. I love the truth more than air. And if you are caught up

00:20:34in

00:20:34air, that means that you could be in danger of hellfire and, and, and because not, not because

00:20:41God is angry with you and he wants to judge you because he loves you and because your sin separates

00:20:46you from him. And if you don't recognize that as sin, then you continue in sin thinking that

00:20:52you are on the straight and narrow, I guess, if you, to use the euphemism, our purpose,

00:20:58our podcast is to encourage Christian pilgrims on the narrow way. Narrow is the way and hard

00:21:03is the road that leads to life. And there are few who find it. And so we're, we, we really

00:21:07are, I mean, that's us, that's us. We saw the error of our way and, um, and we found the

00:21:14hopefulness in the true gospel. And, um, so I don't know, man, it's like, yeah, like you

00:21:21said, once you see it, you can't unsee it.

00:21:24Absolutely. The other thing that I've found is that whenever you're in that type of mode

00:21:30where you're taking a buzzword and you're running with it, you're losing not just the

00:21:34context of what that word means, but there's a lot of the history that goes with it and

00:21:40they have overloaded the history. And in some cases, as you've probably have been able to

00:21:45tell, they have injected their own false histories in the history. So you're trying to navigate,

00:21:50okay, what part came from the Bible? What part was their invented history? What part did

00:21:55they reinvent their history? For me, that's really the most difficult part because there

00:22:01are Bible passages. The one I'm working through right now, I'll be doing a podcast on. There

00:22:07will be earthquakes in diverse places, wars and rumors of wars. Well, if you read that passage,

00:22:13it's basically a statement that Jesus is coming. You don't need to worry. But most of the sermons

00:22:19that I heard growing up was, oh my gosh, there's another war. You must fear you're going to die

00:22:25unless you come to this altar. And so you grew up in that mindset of just constant fear and

00:22:30manipulation. When you leave that manipulation and you start to enter into a church that isn't

00:22:36whipping you with the lashes of fear, suddenly you feel relaxed and there's this uneasy feeling.

00:22:42I don't know how it was for you guys, but I'm sitting there in church for the first time

00:22:46easy. Like, I'm at peace. I'm happy with myself. And I'm like, this isn't right. Something's wrong.

00:22:53I should feel whipped. And that's because that's how we were. We were whipped.

00:22:58Yeah. I think growing up, like, especially for youth, like in youth group during that time,

00:23:04early 2000s, I mean, there was a lot of very militant language being used. And you saw this in,

00:23:11you know, just in the broader evangelical church of this idea of, like, you are the generation that

00:23:19will usher in the return of the Lord. There was so much pressure on us to, like, do the right

00:23:25things,

00:23:27say the right things, pray the right things in order for God to be able to come back, Christ to

00:23:35be able

00:23:36to return. And, yeah, now kind of getting out of that mentality of this, like, half fear and then half,

00:23:48like, militant bring it on to go, no one knows the day or the hour. No man knows except for

00:23:59the Father.

00:23:59Like, it's not on our terms. There's nothing that we can or can't do to stop what the Father is

00:24:10going

00:24:10to do. Like, and then that is just that very big elevation of man in our role that just gets

00:24:20very

00:24:20skewed in that world, that there's just such an emphasis on man versus who the Father is and that

00:24:33he exists without us. Like, they're self-sufficient. He is all sufficient. And, but in these camps,

00:24:43it's very much just an elevation of, of man's worth. And I would even argue too, a great elevation of

00:24:51Satan. And, um, you know, it's like the power of the enemy and you're always travailing and you're

00:24:59always stamping your feet and you're always declaring and decreeing and rebuking and, and all

00:25:06of this stuff instead of resting in the finished work of the cross, instead of resisting the devil

00:25:14and he'll flee from you. And it's like the very basic relaxed approach of the enemy. He's already

00:25:22overcome the enemy. Jesus finished work on the cross, accomplished that. Now he's the enemy, yeah,

00:25:28still stalks around like a lion thinking whom he can devour. Sure. But just like that whole way of

00:25:36viewing life in the spiritual realm just ends up placing you, I think on the throne. And that is a

00:25:46place that we were never, ever meant to be. That was the place that the, uh, serpent deceived Adam and

00:25:54Eve into placing. And I was reading a book by Michael Reeves and he, he points back, um, actually

00:26:01two books right now, rejoice in tremble, which is talking about what is actual true biblical, right

00:26:07fear of the Lord. And then also I read his book just finished the delighting in the Trinity, which is

00:26:13how to understand the Trinity rightly, um, which is a very complex thing, uh, especially when you come

00:26:20from an NAR perspective, he calls it moodalistic. He says, I view it as like a mood of what, what

00:26:28mood

00:26:28are you going to appeal to? And if God, you know, and, um, and, and he talks about Luther, um,

00:26:35discuss

00:26:36this idea, but that we're all inclined where he said, curved inward. And so the issue is not the sin.

00:26:45The issue is not our actions though. That has consequence. It's that the fact that the true

00:26:52issue is that we are all naturally inclined inward. And that scene in the garden of Eden,

00:26:58Eve and Adam naturally were inclined to self. And so when we understand that, it's not this,

00:27:04ooh, we get it, ah, sin, but our, our self, that that's why Christ was telling Nicodemus,

00:27:13you must be born again. Cause when we're born again, it's no longer I who live, it's Christ who

00:27:21lives in me. His spirit produces that fruit. It's not on me to try to do all the things or

00:27:30declare

00:27:30all the things or kind of be my own God. Um, and so, and that's, that's, it was a light,

00:27:39like

00:27:39an extreme about face with how you approach life when you've been raised in that, like NAR ideology,

00:27:47but the freedom that has just come into life when we go through difficult situations or circumstances,

00:27:54just the rest that we can truly have in our father and, um, in the work of his son and

00:28:04the,

00:28:04the amount of striving that ceases.

00:28:10What, what you're talking about too, is, uh, there's like a couple of things that happen when

00:28:14you are curved inward, then you have to deal with the truth. Somehow you still have to deal with the

00:28:21nature of the way things are. And so what we see in the, in the NAR is you see dominionism,

00:28:26you see a dominionist view because it makes us a central figure in the return of Christ. God needs us

00:28:35to actively engage with his plan for return and, and he will not return until his bride is prepared

00:28:43and we are the vessels that he will use. Uh, and you can decide to take yourself out of that,

00:28:49disqualify yourself, not participate, but it would be so much better for you if you did participate.

00:28:54And so when you adopt this, the demonionist seven mountain mandate Zionist, even now I'm going to

00:29:01step on some toes and talk about a dispensationalism, even, even that as well, where we get into this,

00:29:08I, these ideas of like, uh, like over inflating our, our self value or self worth in the big picture.

00:29:16And we, we put ourself in the place of Christ, um, because we need to feel important or valuable.

00:29:23And another thing that we see happens, and, and you were talking about, um, you know,

00:29:27this like constant battle with the devil, like we're always fighting the devil. Right. And I

00:29:32think that's another excuse that I used to use all the time to excuse my own sin. I would say,

00:29:37I'm just in a battle. I'm just, uh, I'm just fighting with the, I mean, the devil's just,

00:29:41he knows he's got my number. He knows I struggle with addictions. And so he just got my number.

00:29:45And, you know, whenever I fall in sin, I'm just wrestling with the devil. It's never my fault

00:29:50for making that choice. You know, it's always the devil for causing me to trip.

00:29:55So a personal response takes away personal responsibility and I want what it is, what it

00:29:59is. I want to read that quote by Luther. Cause I think it's really important and I don't agree

00:30:03with everything, all of Luther's conclusions, but I think this is really important. He had this idea.

00:30:08Um, it's called in, in curvatus in say, uh, which is curved in on, and I did not pronounce

00:30:16that correctly. I am not a Latin speaker by any stretch or German, actually kind of in German

00:30:21a little bit. Sorry, Richard Moore. Um, but the quote is our nature by the corruption of the first

00:30:31sin is so deeply curved in on itself. That's that in curvatus in say, or whatever.

00:30:38That it not only bends the best gift of God towards itself and enjoys them, but it also

00:30:45fails to realize that it's so wickedly curvedly and viciously seeks all things, even God for its

00:30:53own sake. And so we, it's hard, it's hard to argue because you're like, how can you say

00:30:59prayer and worship is bad? How can you say a house of worship or a ministry or prophetic,

00:31:05prophetic words or healing or signs and wonders? How can you say that's a bad thing, right?

00:31:10Because we use the things of God, even the things of God for our own sake, for our own benefit.

00:31:16And that's where the problem is. It's not in, again, form of godliness denying the true power.

00:31:22Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of

00:31:28modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe

00:31:33movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham

00:31:39Historical Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the

00:31:46compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others,

00:31:53with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and

00:32:00documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the

00:32:06cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always,

00:32:12be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

00:32:17On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:32:22My favorite quote of Luther is, whoever drinks beer is quick to sleep, whoever sleeps long does

00:32:27not sin, whoever does not sin enters heaven. So therefore, let us drink beer. Let us drink beer. Amen.

00:32:34And the funny part of it is, it's not because of the beer, because I actually don't like beer,

00:32:39but it's the thought that he understood sin better than anybody who preached it in my 37 years of

00:32:46being in the cult. The way that they preached sin was something that it was something that was out to

00:32:51get you instead of something that you did. You might accidentally sin. You might accidentally look

00:32:56at somebody. You might accidentally, I don't know. There were cases where there were people who were so

00:33:03scared to leave their house because they might accidentally fall into some sin that was out to get

00:33:07them. And again, it was the whiplash of fear. That's the only thing that they were doing. They

00:33:13were teaching you to fear. And Martin Luther's like, well, drink some beer and sleep and be happy.

00:33:19And I'm like, you can't really argue that fact, right? Until I tried beer and it tastes kind of

00:33:25like cat's pee smells to me. So, well, and then there's also the whole, do not be drunk with wine,

00:33:30which leads to debauchery. And then you've got to wrestle with that. Does one sin beget a non-sin?

00:33:36We could have that philosophical discussion.

00:33:39Darrell Bock Yeah, exactly. But now you mentioned

00:33:42we sometimes, when you're in that type of movement, you get this mentality like you're a

00:33:46God. Well, that's by design. They're teaching you that you can be like God. And when you go back

00:33:52to the sin in the Garden of Eden, what was it? It was that you can have the knowledge of

00:33:56good and evil

00:33:56and you can be like God. So when you read the Bible in its context and you understand that the

00:34:03things

00:34:03that they're teaching you are actually coming from the dark side and not the good,

00:34:07you take a step back and you're scratching your head thinking, well, what kind of ministers are

00:34:11these? What are they preaching? And the bigger question for me after I left was just simply

00:34:16have any of them actually read what's in this book? Because all I did when I left, I just started

00:34:21reading it over and over again. And I'm like, I can't believe that these guys are teaching this.

00:34:26They must have never read it.

00:34:28Darrell Bock That's a good point,

00:34:29John. And I think that's it. Again, we're talking about biblical literacy. When the Bible or the

00:34:38words in the Bible are tools to espouse your own views or beliefs that you want to be true,

00:34:44then you don't have to take accountability for what scripture actually says. You say,

00:34:50well, the words are there. I had the guys from Orlando House of Prayer throw that at me. Well,

00:34:56Jesus said that my house should be called the house of prayer. I'm like, right. But what does

00:35:01that mean? He didn't just say my house should be a house of prayer. He says, but y'all have

00:35:06turned it

00:35:07into a den of thieves. What was he talking about? He wasn't just talking about establishing night and

00:35:12day 24-7 prayer. That's not the biblical establishment of the 24-7 night and day Davidic

00:35:20prayer and harp and bowl model.

00:35:22Well, because I think if he was too, then that would contradict Matthew 24 when I think,

00:35:27was it Peter? Like, look how beautiful this temple is. Oh my goodness. And he's like, oh,

00:35:32not a single stone will lay unturned. But then in three days, I'll raise it up again. Like,

00:35:37you know, like if that was the central point of like nonstop prayer and worship, wouldn't that have

00:35:43been a fantastic opportunity for Jesus to say something like that would, you know, I just like,

00:35:51yeah. And like you said, I think too, in, as I've been reading through the Old Testament, which I,

00:35:57I've been like, it's so interesting that so many of these movements will oftentimes latch on to Old

00:36:02Testament ideas, phrases. They seem to always point back there rarely in the New Testament,

00:36:11Old Testament. Definitely Old Testament. Not many people read the Old Testament. Like,

00:36:17not many people do. And, and so you hear ideas, prophetic things spoken. And, but like I said,

00:36:27when you actually go back and start to contextualize, read things for what they were,

00:36:32what was actually being described, a time period, a system, a way that God,

00:36:40a system he had prescribed for a group of people, how they ought to, the anointing, this whole, like,

00:36:47don't touch the Lord's anointed, that anointing language, you only really see in the Old Testament.

00:36:54In the New Testament. And who's it talking about?

00:36:57Jesus. Talking about Christ.

00:36:58So the New Testament, the anointed one is Christ. And then any leaders that you see are appointed.

00:37:05But that whole concept of anointing, you know, as I'm reading, reading about Saul and reading about

00:37:13his anointing as a leader was not a good thing. This was Israel demanding, they wanted an earthly king.

00:37:22They weren't okay with God being their king, God being their ruler. And so the Lord gave them kings.

00:37:31He gave them rulers. But like, that was not like a really two thumbs way up. And then we see

00:37:38that the,

00:37:39Saul was anointed, yet within a couple years, turned to himself. And then the Lord removed his spirit,

00:37:45and then turned placed it. So, yes, Saul was still the anointed leader, but he wasn't, like,

00:37:52on good terms with God here. You know, he did a lot of things at his own strength. David, yes,

00:37:57was an anointed leader. But like that, but now that, then is not now. And so to, you know,

00:38:06they use these terms and these words, and when you don't understand, man, it just elicits a lot of

00:38:13fear. Because, oh, oh, I won't touch the Lord's anointed. Oh, oh, what a gross God. Like, that's a

00:38:20really gross image of our Heavenly Father, that he is just some, like, finicky tyrant, prefers some over

00:38:31others, will show favor to some, but not others, will actually curse you if you don't. And, you know,

00:38:40it's just... And we see that exact same thing in Calvinism, too, though. We see the same kind of,

00:38:45the same kind of thing where it's like the elect, this, this elect thing, where it's like, there's

00:38:49certain ones that God's sort of picked for a special purpose, and somebody's, like, destined for

00:38:55destruction. And that, that, I know that's a little fringy, but it's the same thing. It's, it's another

00:38:59side of the same coin. It's another side of the same coin, but I, I would argue that the Calvinistic

00:39:04understanding of God is much more whole and healthy. Sure, sure. And they are understanding

00:39:09of this, like, weird God who esteems some but not others. Yeah. And like I said, it's just a very

00:39:17works,

00:39:18it's works-based religion. Yeah. When you, when you really start to boil it down, it is a very

00:39:23works-based thing. It's on our shoulders to perform. Well, in touching the Lord's anointed,

00:39:29would suggest, like, in, in that framework, touching the Lord's anointed is like, okay,

00:39:34well, there's certain people that God has specifically and specially anointed for a purpose.

00:39:39And so, I'll, we'll use Mike Bickle, as that's the most, probably the most, uh, popular example

00:39:46right now. So, the presumption is, God anointed Mike Bickle for the purpose of establishing night

00:39:52and day prayer on the earth, for the purpose of preparing the way for the second coming of Christ.

00:39:57And so, when Mike Bickle falls in sin, again, mission over people, that's the term,

00:40:03mission over people. Mission over people. We can acknowledge that what Mike did was wrong,

00:40:08but that doesn't invalidate the mission behind it. So, we need to still preserve the mission. We

00:40:14still need to preserve the mandate. The anointing on him remains, and a lot of people in Mike's camp

00:40:20are still claiming this. Mike is still anointed. He may have fallen, but he's repented. He's coming

00:40:25back around. So, we need to, we need to restore him back to his original post because he's still

00:40:31got a job to complete because God anointed him for that purpose. And, uh, so again, this is where

00:40:37taking, not understanding scripture, taking scripture out of context can actually prepare the way for,

00:40:43uh, for really dangerous people to be platformed and put in positions where more people will actually

00:40:51be harmed, sexually abused, psychologically, spiritually, physically, whatever, emotionally.

00:40:56We put, when we put abusers in positions of power, and then those people abuse and take advantage of

00:41:02other people, and you go, I don't understand. Why did it happen? He's anointed of God.

00:41:06And that, well, and that's the tough thing too, is how can you argue with someone who claims they're

00:41:10anointed by God? It makes them impenetrable. It makes, you can't. Well, God said,

00:41:18well, God gave me a revelation. Well, God gave me a dream. Well, now, what do you do?

00:41:24Now, you can't, there's nothing to say. There's nothing to push back against. And then when you

00:41:28do, you're labeled that you're touching the Lord's anointed, you're labeled a Jezebel.

00:41:33All these fear, like these scary big words that when you actually like read

00:41:40all of that, and in context, it diffuses the whole thing. And you're like, oh, that, no,

00:41:46that's not what that means. And it really, it takes that away. But so long as they can

00:41:52operate with that level of like fear mongering, then it's easy to control. It's easy to keep yourself

00:41:59above any sort of accountability. And they would cry, well, no, I'm accountable to this leader and

00:42:04this leader and this leader. Yeah, but they're all in this muck with you. So none of y'all are

00:42:10actually going to, none of y'all are rightly dividing the word. None, all of y'all are using

00:42:15this form of godliness as a mean of means of gain. Like, so it's not actually any sort of accountability.

00:42:23Yeah, it's just like this structure. They all just protect each other. And that's what, unfortunately,

00:42:30that's what's being exposed. And I mean, you just, the, you would hope there would be trembling

00:42:39on the parts of those being exposed. But what you're seeing is an even more like doubling down,

00:42:45like heels in refusal to admit wrongdoing, which then lines up exactly where Paul is encouraging

00:42:54Timothy and telling him like, in these last days, like, these false teachers will go on,

00:43:01they're going to get worse, deceiving and being deceived themselves. And that's, I think, a hard

00:43:08thing for people to reconcile, is that not only have you been deceived, but the people leading you,

00:43:15are deceived themselves, which is what Jesus spoke of the Pharisees, blind guides leading the blind.

00:43:22And I've had those, the people that claim to be pastors in that movement that literally tell me

00:43:30that I'm the one that's cursed or, you know, that God has, God is going to essentially bring a curse

00:43:36upon because I've been speaking out openly, warning of false teachers and wolves. Let that sink in,

00:43:43a pastor telling me that I'm cursed because I'm exposing sin in the church. Bro, that's your job.

00:43:50That's your job. Why am I, I'm not a pastor. Why am I the one that's exposing? I mean, of

00:43:56course,

00:43:56this is the role of everyone in the church, the whole, and this is again, why, if we understand

00:44:01the biblical order of the church and what a biblical elder is, y'all, you're not a pastor. You're not

00:44:06a,

00:44:06you're not adhering to God's order because you're, you're not upholding scripture. And when you have,

00:44:13and so the purpose of the gathering is that we, we could have an elder or a group of plurality

00:44:18of

00:44:19elders that are older, that are more wise, more seasoned in scripture, that are able to teach,

00:44:24that's scriptural, that are able to admonish and that they can lead their own household well,

00:44:29so that when you've got a gathering of other believers all coming together and there's conflict,

00:44:33they're equipped to handle it. But at the end of the day, it's not their job to live everyone's

00:44:38life for them. It's just their job to help to facilitate the gathering in a, in a godly and

00:44:43orderly manner so that we all grow and can sharpen one another. So what happens when you have

00:44:49biblical Christians, not pastors, but biblical Christians that are upholding scripture,

00:44:56and then you have other people that claim to be pastors that are cursing us? What are we doing

00:45:02here, y'all? Come on. So there's actually two things going on here. There is the deception,

00:45:08which clearly is what you're talking about, but there's also the confusion, which is leading to

00:45:13the deception. And that's the weird part because I have actually come to the conclusion that in most

00:45:18cases in the New Apostolic Reformation, it's not a gospel of Jesus, it's a gospel of confusion,

00:45:24purposefully so, because if you can keep the people confused, then they're not going to want to

00:45:29figure out, well, what's wrong with this place? Why is this such a mess? And I don't know if you

00:45:35have

00:45:36done it yet, but I recommend everybody do this. When you leave one of these groups, go back and read

00:45:41some of the early church fathers. You can find it online. You can find these websites. I read through,

00:45:47I think, almost every single one I could get my hands on. And what it teaches you is this. People

00:45:53are messed up. You read through the ancient, old church fathers, and they are so – what's the word?

00:46:04They have an understanding of the Old and New Testament, kind of like you're describing.

00:46:08They have such a good grasp on it, but they haven't yet grasped Christianity to its fullest extent.

00:46:15So they're like mixing idolatry, pagan practices, whatever was in their culture of the day that's

00:46:22in their head. They're trying to reconcile what they're being taught through the culture,

00:46:28and the culture's just a little bit off. And you find it in the writings. There's some really weird

00:46:32stuff in there. Fast forward a little bit, and you start to watch the weird stuff disappear,

00:46:38because the culture's changing. So the culture is having an impact on what's being taught as the

00:46:44gospel. So you fast forward, you read some of that, and like Martin Luther, he had a pretty good grasp

00:46:49of what's going on, but he was so tainted by what the Catholic Church was doing. You find anger,

00:46:54you find all of the weird culture stuff he had, right? Fast forward to Pentecostalism,

00:47:00and there's this weird thing that happens. I still struggle with this, because I'm not fully against the

00:47:08Pentecostal or charismatic movement. I'm not fully for it, but there is this problem that is the

00:47:14elephant in the room that nobody talks about. At Azusa Street, there were people who were preaching

00:47:21who could not read. There were people preaching from their Bibles who could not read their Bibles.

00:47:27And what they were doing was essentially what came to be this buzz phrase preaching. They would get

00:47:36a phrase, and they would just say the phrase over, like chanting it, and then say stuff with that

00:47:40phrase. Well, that got to be popularized, and so you go to a Pentecostal church, and they'll take a

00:47:45phrase, and they'll just preach the heck out of it. By the time you leave the building, you are so

00:47:50tired

00:47:50of hearing that phrase, you never want to read that chapter. I've been to those services, right? But that's

00:47:56how the culture evolved more to the point. They were inviting people to do this, because that's

00:48:02what they called preaching in the Spirit, and they favored that over people who actually went to

00:48:08seminary and studied and understood what all of this meant. What do these books mean? And so you

00:48:15had people who were, quote unquote, filled with the Spirit, which they may have been. I'm not going to say

00:48:18they weren't, but they didn't really know their doctrine, and they were preaching and teaching.

00:48:23And so now you've got teachers who are teaching confusion. And that multiplied. It grew. It turned

00:48:29into buzzwords. It turned into conferences over this confusion. And now it is almost as though

00:48:35they're selling the confusion and proud of it. We have this thing that nobody else has, people. Well, of

00:48:41course you do, because it's so confusing. Nobody else really wants it.

00:48:45That's true.

00:48:46Yeah. I think a hundred percent. I mean, I think you see that now. I mean, entire sermon messages

00:48:52that are surrounding, I mean, that sound more like a self-help TED talk, and they will. They'll latch

00:48:59onto like one cool phrase and build an entire theology around that, where oftentimes when you listen to

00:49:08these. I love it. I'll try to sit through some NAR teachers, you know, just to like kind of keep

00:49:15a

00:49:15pulse. I have a hard time doing it because I just can't get it past like the first five, 10

00:49:21minutes.

00:49:22And they'll always reference, all right, put your finger in whatever book of the Bible

00:49:26for that one verse. And then they'll launch into some thing about themselves or some other.

00:49:33All right. We're going to get to that verse in the Bible. And then they launch into something else

00:49:38surrounding that phrase. And through it, it's like the last minute, then they'll throw out that Bible

00:49:48verse and just be like, all right. So, yeah, see, God said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you

00:49:56know,

00:49:56and now I'm like, oh my goodness. I remember sitting through these teachings thinking like,

00:50:02wow, this is, this doesn't make any sense. They must really have such a deep revelation from God that I

00:50:10only wish I could have. And now I listen and I'm like, oh, you guys are still telling this lie?

00:50:17Like,

00:50:17this is nonsense because it's nonsense because you're not saying anything. You're not like, you know,

00:50:24and so that's so true. They, you latch on. I mean, you'll see little clips of, of people just

00:50:32going nuts on the stage and they'll just like get locked in and just pound this like one phrase over

00:50:38and over and over and over. And yeah, by the end of it, you're so mentally, emotionally, and spiritually

00:50:47exhausted that it's just, you just kind of go, oh, well, maybe one day I could understand and have a

00:50:54relationship like with God like that. Oh, well, they tell me if I sow a seed of faith, God will

00:51:00bless it. And I really want to have a really big house. And so honestly too, we have to be

00:51:06honest

00:51:06with ourselves is when you're, when for years we were sitting in that, we're really just,

00:51:12you have a room full of covetors too, who covet that kind of power, that kind of influence,

00:51:19that kind of, of money. And I think that's a hard thing to reconcile. Um, that truly,

00:51:28if you're sitting under that kind of teaching, what are you actually after? And if you can be

00:51:34intellectually honest and if you can really lay yourself bare at the core of that is self

00:51:44and self-fulfillment. And, um, and I think once you can get there, then you can start reconciling

00:51:54it with God's word. And, and I think it's like, it can feel so scary. I think people can resist.

00:52:03Nobody wants to be wrong, right? Nobody wants to find out that for the last

00:52:09one month or 20 years, they've been fully in error and it feels too overwhelming. It feels too,

00:52:19how do I undo this? And again, hard stop. It's not on you to do. God is so faithful. And

00:52:28when we come to

00:52:29him with a genuine heart that seeks him, he says, all who come to me, I will by no means

00:52:36turn away.

00:52:37And so when we come to him with a genuine heart of repentance, that I cannot be God of my

00:52:42own life,

00:52:43truly, Lord, I recognize what you did. And, and I rest in that finished work that I can be born

00:52:50again

00:52:51and filled with your spirit. And it's through your indwelling spirit that can lead me into all truth,

00:52:58that can lead me to be able to rightly divide your word, that can lead me to help uncouple myself

00:53:04from

00:53:05these lies that I've been told and better understand you.

00:53:12It's hard to understand when you're in that kind of works based mentality, but when you actually are

00:53:18presented the gospel, who Christ is, what he did and, and who we are in light of that,

00:53:25then that burden is that easy yoke where the burden is light and, and, and the yoke is easy.

00:53:34And he who began a good work in us will accomplish it till the day of Christ Jesus, our Lord.

00:53:43And,

00:53:43and so we can simply really, I mean, fall back into the arms of Christ knowing he'll catch us and,

00:53:52um,

00:53:53he'll, he'll do that work and, and he will, he's gentle and lowly in heart. That is how the father

00:54:00describes himself through Christ and, um, not this tyrant God who rewards some, has favor on some,

00:54:12and you're just on this rat, just this wheel, hamster wheel of never quite getting there. Um,

00:54:22and he actually wants to pull you off of that so you can truly find rest that can only be

00:54:27found in him.

00:54:29One thing that goes really well hand in hand with the NAR is network marketing. And, um,

00:54:36um, I know this seems like a totally random rabbit trail, but it's exactly in line with what you're

00:54:41saying. It just, this reminded me of it. We were involved in network marketing a little bit in our,

00:54:46when we were also in the middle of our, you know, running with Sean Foyt and burn 24 seven and

00:54:52trying to build our earthly, trying to build our earthly kingdom. Right. And, um, and I remember one

00:54:57year we went to a conference for the company that we were part of and, uh, you know, you sit

00:55:03through the

00:55:03seminars and the main sessions and everything. And I just remember thinking when I was there,

00:55:08I was like, you know, this feels a whole lot like church to me. This feels a whole lot. I'm

00:55:13very

00:55:13familiar with this environment. It felt very comfortable. Um, and then I remember one time

00:55:17we were, we were living in Nashville and I went to a, uh, Tony Robbins event out by the airport.

00:55:25Um, and actually it was downtown Nashville and, uh, it's an office joke. Sorry if that went over

00:55:31anyone's head. Um, went to a Tony Robbins event. And at the very end of the event, Tony goes into

00:55:36this really intense, like the, they dimmed all the lights. They brought in this really thick,

00:55:41lush pad sound over the, uh, the PA system. And, and they had like smoke machine and the lighting was

00:55:48just so, and the tone of his voice changed. And he got into talking about some very spiritual things.

00:55:55And I was like, I remember feeling, and I'm just going to say these words, cause this is what it

00:56:00felt

00:56:00like. I remember feeling the power of the Holy spirit in that moment. I felt the spirit of God

00:56:04moving in me. Like I had never felt it before. And that scared the crap out of me. Honestly,

00:56:13I, when that happened, I was like, this is Tony Robbins. This is not the church. That guy's not a

00:56:18pastor. And the things he's preaching are not the Bible. Why does it feel so familiar? Why does this

00:56:24feel so familiar? And I identified in that moment, a familiar spirit, and it was not the spirit of

00:56:31God. And I realized that the same spirit that's operating in these, in Tony Robbins and the power,

00:56:37positive thinking, the prosperity, the, the health and wealth in the secular world and in the Christian

00:56:43world, cause there's a lot of overlap. I started to recognize the connection between new thought,

00:56:48the new age, uh, and the NAR and realizing that these two things, there's no, there's no real

00:56:54difference. They're preaching the same thing. They're just going about it at a different way.

00:56:59And so that's why when people are like, well, what's wrong with prayer and worship? What's wrong with,

00:57:03why is this a problem? What's wrong with the NAR? What's wrong with Bethel? What's wrong with

00:57:07healing and signs and wonders and miracles? Of course, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with

00:57:12God moving in power through his spirit by his own will for his own glory. There's of course,

00:57:18should God move in that manner? Then it is for his glory and that'll be evident. But it is,

00:57:25it is the, the, when we try to take and build formulas and formats around those ideas to manufacture

00:57:32those things, um, we are not operating in the same spirit. It's not the spirit of God.

00:57:38Which is why we're encouraged to test the spirit. So, I mean, there's so much biblical

00:57:43language supporting that and it's for a reason. It's, it's, it's as if God knows.

00:57:48It's as if God loves us and cares deeply for us. It doesn't want to see us fall into

00:57:54error that he knows will harm us. What a good, gracious, loving father we serve.

00:58:01Yeah. Amen.

00:58:02Well, thank you so much for doing this. This has been crazy fun and so many topics that I,

00:58:06in my head, I'm thinking, well, I want to do a podcast on that and that.

00:58:10Right. Me too.

00:58:11So many more, um, tell people where they can find you.

00:58:14Yeah. Uh, well, grace with conviction.com is our website. I try to keep all of our resources

00:58:20as easy to access from there. Of course we keep, I kind of maintain our website, um, more as a

00:58:26resource

00:58:26hub. Uh, we'll have our first, our first six episodes of our podcast really share our story of,

00:58:33you know, growing up in the Pentecostal movement. I hop, uh, Sean Foy, Bethel, just like our whole

00:58:39experience there. And then how the Lord kind of moved in us and to bring us out, to open our

00:58:45eyes

00:58:45and all that. And then we have a few other episodes, you know, we've interviewed people like, um,

00:58:50Dorian virtue and, you know, Jesse Westwood. We've done various other episodes with other people.

00:58:54Uh, Marsha Montenegro will have an episode. We did one with her. We haven't published it,

00:58:58but that one will come out soon. Um, and you know, just like our purpose with the podcast is to

00:59:04equip the church, to encourage Christian pilgrims on the narrow way, help to help provide resources

00:59:11for people like, uh, coming out of IHOP or whatever, like, uh, I don't want to deconstruct,

00:59:17but I don't know where to go. You know, we hope to kind of provide the sort of resources that

00:59:21were

00:59:22really, really helpful for us and even create some of our own language that just helps to clarify from

00:59:27our perspective. So gracewithconviction.com. We have our YouTube channel, our grace with conviction

00:59:33and our Instagram, Facebook, all of that. And I try to keep up pretty consistently with content on

00:59:38there as well. Awesome. Well, thanks again for doing this. Well, thank you so much for having us.

00:59:43Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story,

00:59:46you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org.

00:59:50For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation,

00:59:53you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:00:33For more on Amazon, same way, but still want to set up for many changes or Вам.

01:00:34Don't say this is pretty cool, neverplace your heart, but it feels good for me,

01:00:35because your son can flow. That is your truth, because it is worth it.

01:00:36Bye-bye.

01:00:37Yeah, they feel good.

01:00:37Bye-bye.

01:00:42Bye-bye.

The Gospel of Confusion in the NAR | Grace with Conviction | Podcast Episode 615

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