- 5 weeks ago
John and Bob examine John Paul Jackson's role in the Kansas City Prophets and the broader prophetic movement, asking whether his influence helped normalize a culture where charisma, showmanship, and partial accuracy were treated as proof of divine authority. The discussion traces how prophetic credibility was built through networks of mutual affirmation, public stagecraft, and a growing tolerance for failed predictions.
The conversation also connects Jackson to older patterns in Latter Rain and charismatic history, including the use of fear, spectacle, and "confirmation" voices to platform movement leaders. Along the way, John and Bob explore why so much modern prophecy seems to drift toward intuition, image management, and performance rather than biblical accountability, mature discernment, or meaningful guidance for the church.
00:00 Introduction
03:00 The Prophetic Tricycle In Kansas City
08:12 Why Prophets Needed Witnesses
13:14 John Paul Jackson As A Confirming Voice
19:02 Bob Scott’s Doubts About The Prophets
22:39 Prophecy, Intuition, And Public Performance
29:00 Female Prophets And Latter Rain Confirmation
35:11 When Prophecy Becomes Exaggerated
40:36 Prophets As Signposts, Not The Road
45:02 John Paul Jackson And “Seeing In Part”
49:09 King James Prophecy And Religious Theater
52:09 Why Church Prophecy Lost Credibility
58:19 John Paul Jackson’s Role In Normalizing The System
59:39 Critique Versus Criticism
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
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– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The conversation also connects Jackson to older patterns in Latter Rain and charismatic history, including the use of fear, spectacle, and "confirmation" voices to platform movement leaders. Along the way, John and Bob explore why so much modern prophecy seems to drift toward intuition, image management, and performance rather than biblical accountability, mature discernment, or meaningful guidance for the church.
00:00 Introduction
03:00 The Prophetic Tricycle In Kansas City
08:12 Why Prophets Needed Witnesses
13:14 John Paul Jackson As A Confirming Voice
19:02 Bob Scott’s Doubts About The Prophets
22:39 Prophecy, Intuition, And Public Performance
29:00 Female Prophets And Latter Rain Confirmation
35:11 When Prophecy Becomes Exaggerated
40:36 Prophets As Signposts, Not The Road
45:02 John Paul Jackson And “Seeing In Part”
49:09 King James Prophecy And Religious Theater
52:09 Why Church Prophecy Lost Credibility
58:19 John Paul Jackson’s Role In Normalizing The System
59:39 Critique Versus Criticism
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Bob Scott, former co-founder of the Kansas City Fellowship
00:00:47and the author of three books,
00:00:49the latest is Some Said They Blundered, Breaking My Decades of Silence on Mike Bickle, The Kansas City Prophets, and
00:00:55The International House of Prayer.
00:00:57Well, Bob, it's good to be back, and I'm going to have you break your silence just a bit more.
00:01:03We're going to dive into John Paul Jackson.
00:01:07I've been asked by multiple people over the years to go deeper with him, and honestly, I want to.
00:01:13It's not that I don't.
00:01:14There are just so many names in the history building up to this.
00:01:18But I recently put something out.
00:01:20I don't know if you saw it, but I did a thing on John Paul Jackson as it related to
00:01:24the California prophecy.
00:01:26And what it's trying to show is that this is nothing new, nothing original.
00:01:30This is just a repeat of various things.
00:01:34And in the comment feeds, people were saying, well, why didn't you mention Prophet X or Prophet Y?
00:01:38They both did the same thing.
00:01:40And so I think this podcast is going to be about John Paul Jackson, but more to the point, it's
00:01:46going to be about the fact that I don't really think he was a prophet, Bob.
00:01:52You and me both.
00:01:53So is it all right if I give a disclaimer?
00:01:56Sure.
00:01:57I'm not responsible for anything I say because you get me going, and then it just comes out.
00:02:01So it's John's fault if I stick my foot in my mouth.
00:02:06It's like, you're dangerous for me because it's like there's a lot of stuff that sits inside my soul that
00:02:13I don't really share with people.
00:02:14But for some reason, I feel comfortable with you.
00:02:18And for our audience out there, I mean, as I've shared often, there's a perception, perspective paradigm, meaning there's things
00:02:29that our five senses pick up, right?
00:02:33And then that gets formed into our perspective, and then it's a paradigm.
00:02:37It doesn't necessarily mean it's right, but what I'm about to share or what John's going to get me to
00:02:43share is my perspective.
00:02:45And you may have a different one.
00:02:46I know there's a lot of people out there that do.
00:02:49But this is my perception and probably the perception of most people now in hindsight.
00:02:56Yeah.
00:02:57But, yes, I ended up – John Paul was the third wheel of a tricycle.
00:03:04I call it the prophetic tricycle that came through Casey in the 1980s.
00:03:10Most people are familiar with Bob Jones because he was probably the most critical in terms of formulating Mike Bickle's
00:03:19thinking and mine for a large part initially as to what our purpose was and where God was taking us
00:03:27and how what we were doing was going to turn into a movement and going to be transformative.
00:03:31And, you know, for two 25-year-old guys, you know, he was speaking our language, like he was reinforcing
00:03:40to us that we were going to be significant and impactful and change the world.
00:03:44So we ate it up.
00:03:45You know, we were wannabes, and he was telling us that what we wanted to be was going to happen.
00:03:50So we were very vulnerable to him, and then, of course, came along Paul Kane later in the 80s, and
00:03:59that's a whole wild story there.
00:04:01But then this guy, John Paul Jackson, kind of wandered in, and the three of them couldn't have been more
00:04:07different.
00:04:09You know, Bob was a roly-poly tree trimmer who basically had very little command of the English language, very
00:04:21street smart, but he's the kind of guy you would take your friend to to his house so you could
00:04:28get a word from Bob,
00:04:29and he'd come out of his bedroom with his lime green socks and his slippers and his fat tummy hanging
00:04:37out of his t-shirt.
00:04:38I mean, he was a slob, right?
00:04:40Then you had Paul Kane, who was the refined, you know, latter-day reign, you know, kind of slick Pentecostal
00:04:50kind of, you know, he was, I mean, he was the quintessential Pentecostal preacher.
00:04:56His hair was always perfect, you know, so, there was, all right, but he was the elder statesman.
00:05:04The other guys and everybody else was totally intimidated by him because he had some strange giftings that were kind
00:05:15of wild, and then John Paul Jackson showed up.
00:05:17And John Paul Jackson was probably the most like Mike Bickle.
00:05:27JP came from Larry Lee's church.
00:05:30Does that name ring a bell to you, Larry Lee?
00:05:32So, Larry Lee was a pastor from Rockwall, Texas, who was kind of into prayer before Mike.
00:05:41And so, Larry was very well known in the 80s for his focus on prayer, had a, you know, very
00:05:47well known.
00:05:51And there was another guy on our staff by the name of Tim Golden who later passed away in a
00:05:56traffic accident.
00:05:58He was from Larry's church and had come up here because he had kind of helped Larry launch some of
00:06:04the prayer stuff, and he wanted to be a part of it.
00:06:06Mike felt Larry didn't go far enough.
00:06:08You know, Mike was, you know, whatever we did, whatever Mike did, he always outdid everyone else.
00:06:16I mean, that's one of the classic personality temperaments of Mike, right?
00:06:22If you did 10, he would do 15, right?
00:06:25If you did, right, everything was a competition.
00:06:28Everything was one, right?
00:06:29So, if Larry did this, I'm going to take it to the next level.
00:06:33So, Mike's thing was 24-hour, seven-days-a-week prayer.
00:06:37You know, Larry was, per meetings at night, Mike was going to go, you know, 24-7, 365.
00:06:43So, that was that.
00:06:44JP was slick.
00:06:47Very slick.
00:06:49The most artistically creative of the three.
00:06:54Everything JP did was excellent.
00:06:58Excellent.
00:06:58I mean, if you go back and look at his materials from the 1980s, I mean, it's just, I mean,
00:07:04he had it down.
00:07:05I mean, he was a marketing, you know, very talented marketing-wise.
00:07:11But he had an ego so big that he was hard for me to handle.
00:07:16He and I butted heads constantly.
00:07:18Like, constantly butted heads.
00:07:23I mean, he was just so driven.
00:07:25You know what I mean?
00:07:26It was just like, ah.
00:07:28You also bring out the bad side of me.
00:07:30I've written up.
00:07:32This is a historical podcast.
00:07:33And I find with you, I give my opinions more than the other co-hosts.
00:07:38Yeah, I know.
00:07:38But, you know.
00:07:39And there are opinions, just so everybody knows.
00:07:41There are perspectives.
00:07:42We're not telling you you have to agree with us.
00:07:45We're just telling it from our side of the spectrum, right?
00:07:48Yeah, exactly.
00:07:50So I'm going to give some details in the history of the movement.
00:07:54And this part is historical.
00:07:55But I'm going to throw some of my opinion in it.
00:07:59Because, really, there's no way to prove either way.
00:08:01The only thing that we can say is we know what happened.
00:08:04We don't know how it got from point A to point B.
00:08:07But if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, one of the problems with the prophetic
00:08:14movement is this.
00:08:16Anybody can do it.
00:08:18You walk out into a stage and you say, I was hearing from God and thus.
00:08:24But the problem is your general audience, even back then, is not going to believe you.
00:08:29You have to convince them that you are a prophetic person.
00:08:34You either have prophecy or dreams like John Paul Jackson.
00:08:38You have to convince the people of doing this.
00:08:41Well, how do you do this?
00:08:42You have to have a witness.
00:08:44You have to have somebody who says, oh, yes, he prophesied this thing way back when.
00:08:49Because most of these people, especially with a dream, there's really no way to prove that you had the dream.
00:08:55Right.
00:08:56And if you mention the dream after the event happened, well, who's to say that you didn't make it up,
00:09:02right?
00:09:02Right.
00:09:02I recently – I've mentioned this a couple times.
00:09:05I recently watched the Mike Winger video on Chris Reed.
00:09:10And Chris Reed is holding up his phone saying, look, I had this prophecy and this Apple note has this
00:09:16date on it at the top.
00:09:17And therefore, I had this prophecy before the event.
00:09:21And it was a prophecy about Mike Winger, obviously.
00:09:24And Mike Winger held up his phone and says, yes, I can change the date on my phone.
00:09:29And 10 years ago, I prophesied that you would be doing this to me.
00:09:34And so you have to have a credible witness.
00:09:38I'm going to say it like that.
00:09:39It has to be a credible witness.
00:09:41Well, how best to do it than you find other prophets?
00:09:44I've often asked the question, why the Kansas City prophets, plural, if Mike Bickle was the showman?
00:09:51Well, you have to have the voice of two or three witnesses, right?
00:09:56Now, combine that with what William Branham did historically.
00:10:00One of his gimmicks was he told everybody that I was born under a sign on this year in 1909.
00:10:08And everywhere I went, I would have a witness.
00:10:12I would have a confirmation.
00:10:13He would say, these mystic women.
00:10:15And he's talking about, you know, the fortune tellers in the little crystal ball booth in these places.
00:10:23He says, everywhere I went, these mystic women would call me out of the crowd and say, did you know
00:10:28you were born under a sign?
00:10:30Right.
00:10:31And everybody thought that this is proof that he was born under the dang sign.
00:10:35But nobody actually ever saw the fortune teller.
00:10:39And nobody stopped to think, wait a minute.
00:10:42Is a fortune teller really something that you need to use as confirmation of a Christian ministry?
00:10:48Well, to your point, I remember with, I mean, and you can.
00:10:53Maybe shed some light on this, but Paul Cain talked about being born with a skin over his face.
00:11:00I guess in Pentecostal circles, that's kind of a sign or something.
00:11:05Explain that to me because I wasn't real clear on what that meant.
00:11:08But I guess that's a sign that the child is special or something.
00:11:12This is one of the funniest, funniest things, man.
00:11:16You know, I've never talked about this.
00:11:17And it's going to be embarrassing, so I'm going to open up a little bit.
00:11:23All right.
00:11:24Enlighten us.
00:11:25In the South especially, you had this wide swath of people, both Christian or not, who were superstitious, especially during
00:11:36the spiritualist craze.
00:11:38They were superstitious about everything.
00:11:40And there was the idea that your child could be marked.
00:11:44You could say something and mark your child.
00:11:48And there was the idea that your birth, whatever happened at your birth, superstitiously, was the path and trajectory of
00:11:59your life.
00:11:59And so Branham says, I was born under a sign.
00:12:02He says, when I was born, God spoke from – I can't remember how he phrased it, but essentially something
00:12:08supernatural allegedly took place in one of the later revisions to his stage persona.
00:12:14But there was the idea that you could either mark your baby by talking about it.
00:12:19You could give it a curse or something would happen supernatural that would mark your baby for spiritual significance.
00:12:25And that's what they were doing.
00:12:27Okay.
00:12:27Interestingly.
00:12:28But what's the skin over your face or something?
00:12:30I never did understand.
00:12:31I'm thinking, well, everybody's born in a sack.
00:12:34Like, was it left over?
00:12:35Like, what was the veil or – I call it the veil or something.
00:12:40I just listened to some of the old Pentecostals talk, and I heard Paul mention it once, and I never
00:12:45did quite understand what he was actually talking about, other than the fact that it meant you were a seer.
00:12:52If you were born with that.
00:12:55Yeah, there's different – and I don't know the exact history on where all of that came from, but there's
00:13:00different ways to understand it.
00:13:03What he was probably trying to say was, I was born without being able to fully see, and I had
00:13:09to rely on my second sight.
00:13:11That's usually what he was trying to say.
00:13:13But regardless of all of this, the fact of the matter is, these guys had to have a witness of
00:13:20some sort.
00:13:21And so, John Paul Jackson, while he's now revered as his own thing, he was really just one of the
00:13:28voices to confirm Mike Bickle.
00:13:30And without those, Mike Bickle would have been nothing.
00:13:33Well, and that's why Mike collected them.
00:13:36You know, I mean, we've talked about this in the past, because there's nothing new here.
00:13:41This is what political leaders have done for millennia, right?
00:13:48Which is there's all these two power segments in every culture, which is politics, right?
00:13:56Who's ruling?
00:13:58And the spiritual leaders.
00:13:59And so the idea is that the political leaders always want the blessing of the religious leaders,
00:14:06because that reinforces the fact that they're chosen by God.
00:14:09So this has been going on.
00:14:11I mean, it's all through the Bible.
00:14:12There's nothing new here.
00:14:13There was the same thing that was happening at KCF.
00:14:16Mike was rallying around him, you know, the religious leaders who spoke for God,
00:14:21that we were reaffirming his special stature and place in God's divine plan.
00:14:27So I'm like, okay, I've seen this play before.
00:14:33But getting back to JP, what's interesting is JP was from, we call him, sorry, I call him JPJ.
00:14:39I don't even call him John Paul.
00:14:40It's just too long.
00:14:41So he was known as JPJ.
00:14:43JPJ was born in Waxahachie, Texas.
00:14:46You know, and of course, Paul Kane was from around the Waco area.
00:14:49So they sort of had an affinity for that.
00:14:52You know, they were country boys from that south of, what is it, Dallas, you know, Fort Worth area.
00:14:59You know, like an hour south of that.
00:15:01That's where they were from.
00:15:02So they got on really well.
00:15:04But JP was so, like Mike, he had, he was consumed.
00:15:13Well, again, this is my perspective, but they were both men who had what I call inverted pride.
00:15:22And inverted pride, to me, is defined as somebody who's painfully insecure, who is doing everything they can to reinforce
00:15:32how special they are.
00:15:33You know, and you see this a lot in Pentecostalism, where men come from very impoverished backgrounds.
00:15:40They're ashamed of their past, right?
00:15:42And then they get around power and money, you know, status and stuff.
00:15:48And suddenly they're redefining themselves.
00:15:51They're special, right?
00:15:53But they're fighting their own childhood demons of being less than the poor kid who never had shoes or never
00:16:00had new shoes or wearing, you know, like the Bickle kids were all wearing hand-me-downs or Salvation Army
00:16:06stuff to school, right?
00:16:09So you're, you know, you're kind of, well, JP was like that.
00:16:12He was so trying to overcompensate for things that because I have a sixth sense about things, it just rubbed
00:16:20me.
00:16:21He, like, really rubbed me the wrong way.
00:16:23He and I, I tell you, this is a funny story.
00:16:25I felt bad.
00:16:26This is bad and good at the same time.
00:16:29This is one of these very conflicted stories.
00:16:32But we had a group of elders in our church.
00:16:35We called it the Senior Council.
00:16:37There was five of us.
00:16:38And so we would take these leadership retreats.
00:16:40So we happened to take one during the Super Bowl.
00:16:44I don't remember what year it was.
00:16:45All I remember was it was the Denver Broncos playing the Washington Redskins.
00:16:50So we got, you know, it's all guys.
00:16:53You know, we got our food.
00:16:54We're watching the game.
00:16:55And Denver just comes flying out.
00:16:59They have so much energy.
00:17:01They're up 14-0 in the first quarter.
00:17:05And JP gets up in front of the whole thing, you know, the whole group and goes,
00:17:10God showed me.
00:17:12I told you guys this was going to happen.
00:17:13And he's pacing back and forth like the peacock, right?
00:17:18I call them prophetic peacocks.
00:17:19So he's doing his strut with his tail out, right?
00:17:22And it's like he is just bragging.
00:17:25And I'm just sitting over in the corner.
00:17:27And after he gets done, you know, just going off, I kind of raise my hand real timidly and go,
00:17:35you know, I don't know.
00:17:37I have a funny feeling.
00:17:39And the guys are all looking at me.
00:17:40What do you mean?
00:17:41And I go, it feels like to me that Denver came out with way too much energy and that I
00:17:48think they're going to lay an egg.
00:17:50They never scored the rest of the game.
00:17:52And Washington scores 40 points and just crushes them, right?
00:17:55And JP is so humiliated.
00:17:59He wouldn't talk to me for six months.
00:18:01Wow.
00:18:02Oh, he was so mad.
00:18:05And I was like, there was a party and I was like, yes.
00:18:08You know, my male ego was like, yes.
00:18:10But then my compassionate side was like, I so humiliated him.
00:18:14I felt so bad.
00:18:15You know what I mean?
00:18:16It was one of those kind of things.
00:18:17But he was always creating those kind of situations that he was always putting me in the most awkward situation.
00:18:25Well, finally, you know, before he left to go to New Hampshire or wherever it was to go start his
00:18:31own thing,
00:18:32he and I kind of had it out, you know, and we ended up, funny enough, kind of not ever
00:18:38becoming friends,
00:18:39but we ended up kind of coming to a place of Pete's and mutual respect.
00:18:43But he, I had some problems with him.
00:18:49My primary problem that I struggled with was not so much his personality as much as it was just, you
00:18:57know,
00:18:57I don't, I'm not into peacock preachers, was the fact I didn't think he was a prophet.
00:19:05And so this is where it gets really tricky.
00:19:08In fact, to be quite honest with you, I went from being told by everyone that these three guys were
00:19:16prophets
00:19:16to actually, by probably 87 or 88, going, I don't think any of these guys are prophets.
00:19:25I will defend all of them on the fact that they had very interesting insight.
00:19:33I mean, to the point of specific details sometimes that they couldn't possibly have known.
00:19:40So they were gifted.
00:19:41I will not, and yes, we've talked about the fake stuff because that was there too,
00:19:47but there was something genuine that I saw because I was in situations, not JP, but the other two, Bob
00:19:54and Paul,
00:19:55with the, I saw things happen that I was like, whoa, there's no way he could have known.
00:20:01Oh, that happened on the other side where nobody knew or whatever, right?
00:20:04JP was a different story.
00:20:06He was so, he was so driven and since he was, you know, he needed to be sensational, you know?
00:20:14And this was always kind of one of my big gripes with Mike is why does everything have to be
00:20:19a three-wing circus, right?
00:20:21This was the whole purpose behind this vision I had for a place called Shiloh.
00:20:25I wanted to desensationalize it, right?
00:20:28I wanted to do all this in private because I had watched what was happening publicly and then I watched
00:20:37what happened one-on-one.
00:20:39And I'm telling you, John, it couldn't have, it was like two different worlds.
00:20:43Who those guys were and what they did to some of the people that I was doing my Joseph Company
00:20:49stuff with, key figures around the world,
00:20:52with how they interacted with these guys one-on-one was profound.
00:20:57What happened on the stage was like a traffic, right?
00:21:01Like, or it was like, wow.
00:21:04And here I am, I'm observing all this, right?
00:21:06Because I'm new to all this and I'm like you, I'm analytical, right?
00:21:10I'm evaluating all of this as it's happening, trying to figure out where's this going, is this wise, whatever.
00:21:15And that was one of my takeaways.
00:21:17So I was like, these guys don't belong on a stage.
00:21:19What they do belong in is in a counseling environment.
00:21:23Like Bob Jones helped me do, in my counseling world, he accelerated the process of counseling sometimes two and three
00:21:32years.
00:21:32He was like this little catalyst, right, that gave a clue to something that a psychologist would peel back onion
00:21:40layers, right, to get to a year later, right?
00:21:43Okay, now we know what the real tradition, he'd just go right there.
00:21:47And then we could deal with it then, right?
00:21:50And I was like, wow, it's like this, it's like one of these things with him where it'd be like
00:21:54suddenly he'd just move everything forward in time, right?
00:21:58That's what I remember.
00:21:59It was like, that was so helpful.
00:22:01But nobody saw it.
00:22:02It was just three of us or maybe four of us in a little room out in Independence, Missouri.
00:22:07That was it, you know?
00:22:08And they loved him because he zeroed in things from their childhood, experiences they had, things that they'd never told
00:22:15anyone, you know, abuse situations that they'd held secret of.
00:22:20And boom, he was right there.
00:22:22So it was like, whoa, right?
00:22:23I never had any of that with JP, ever.
00:22:27JP was always like, he had that PT Barnum thing that Mike did.
00:22:34Everything was a show, right?
00:22:36So everything was slick, whatever.
00:22:39Here's where I'm going to get myself in trouble, where we can talk about this.
00:22:43But I probably just need to say it.
00:22:47In my view, most of what I've observed in the Pentecostal charismatic world that has been labeled prophecy is, to
00:22:59me, female intuition.
00:23:00Or you could say male.
00:23:03It's not that males don't have intuition.
00:23:05But by and large, it's been my experience now that I'm almost 70, that most women are incredibly intuitive.
00:23:16That's like, they just know, right?
00:23:19And moms are like intuitive on steroids.
00:23:22Like, moms know things that are just crazy.
00:23:26Like, they don't even have to be in the same state as you, and they know something's wrong, right?
00:23:30So how do they know?
00:23:31What is that?
00:23:32I don't know.
00:23:32I can't define it other than to say it's intuition.
00:23:36But it's there.
00:23:37It's a reality.
00:23:38There is a dynamic that happens with women who have what I call an open soul, right?
00:23:45They're loving.
00:23:46They're compassionate.
00:23:47They're caring.
00:23:49You know, I think of what it says in the Bible.
00:23:51Jesus was moved to compassion, therefore he healed, right?
00:23:55There's something about compassion that unlocks certain realms, right?
00:24:01People get healed with compassion.
00:24:03People get moved, right?
00:24:05So women, by nature, are compassionate and caring.
00:24:08Not all, but most.
00:24:10And moms in particular.
00:24:11And they have an intuitive knowing.
00:24:14What I've seen with mothers and their children,
00:24:16women or women in situations are at the same level as what I see at church as prophecy.
00:24:24And I'm sorry if that offends people, but that's my observation, brother.
00:24:30I mean, I, you know, when Bob came to KCF, of course, everybody wanted to be prophets, right?
00:24:35Because Mike put him on stage and said, this is what gets you on stage.
00:24:38So suddenly now I've got 500 prophets in the church and people are all, I felt God, right?
00:24:44Everything was I felt, I sensed, right?
00:24:47All the same dynamics as a mom or a woman, right?
00:24:52And so that's where it got, you know, where this gets really weird and this is where I'm going to
00:24:57get myself in huge trouble.
00:24:59But, hey, that's what we do in this podcast.
00:25:02We get ourselves in trouble.
00:25:04This is why I have said to people in private for years, I do not think it's a coincidence that
00:25:12so many public prophetic people,
00:25:17you know, ministry people that are defined as prophetic, either effeminate or have an issue with homosexuality.
00:25:26Now, again, this is a theory, it's not a fact, it's an observation.
00:25:31But I have seen the same dynamics that I have seen with females and mothers and intuition that I have
00:25:39with the prophetic guys.
00:25:41And then it comes out later, or whatever.
00:25:44Was JPJ gay?
00:25:47I don't know.
00:25:49But I will tell you that I probably had a dozen women in the church that all insisted that he
00:25:54was.
00:25:55There was nothing that ever came out that he was.
00:25:58He was never accused of it, you know.
00:26:01I mean, I shouldn't say that.
00:26:03There was nobody, you know, where in the other situations there was a victim that came forward and said I
00:26:07was abused.
00:26:08I don't know if that ever happened.
00:26:11It didn't happen with me.
00:26:12Maybe somebody else has a story, but it never happened with me.
00:26:17But the kind of intuitive women all sensed that he was.
00:26:22He had a real problem with women.
00:26:25He was, is probably, he had one, I mean, besides the fact that he was a wannabe kind of fake
00:26:35prophetic guy,
00:26:36his other big issue is he was a misogynist.
00:26:41And I had huge problems in my church with him.
00:26:45You know, and he came from that whole school of thought.
00:26:48If you disagree with me, you're a Jezebel.
00:26:50So he was very cruel to women.
00:26:57And there was various rumors flying around about verbal abuse and things like that.
00:27:04But I know the people that worked for him, very dear friends for many, many years.
00:27:11And they were very damaged.
00:27:14Very, a lot of pain there.
00:27:17Because he was like Mike.
00:27:19In JP's world, you were a cog in his machine.
00:27:23Right?
00:27:24You came to work for him, but you were serving the man of God.
00:27:27Right?
00:27:27You know, that whole kind of weird concept, like I'm God's chosen and aren't you lucky to be with me?
00:27:35You know?
00:27:36And so that was where he and I got sideways.
00:27:39So bless his heart.
00:27:40It's hard for me to talk about it because he's dead and he died of cancer.
00:27:43And, you know, I hate talking badly about people that aren't here to defend themselves.
00:27:49Right?
00:27:49But at the same time, I think we owe it to our audience to just be honest about our perceptions
00:27:55of things.
00:27:57So that's a long rant, but that's my perspective.
00:28:02Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started?
00:28:05Or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New
00:28:13Apostolic Reformation?
00:28:15You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
00:28:22On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
00:28:30John McKinnon, and others,
00:28:31with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:28:36You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:28:43If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
00:28:49top.
00:28:49And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
00:28:55watching.
00:28:56On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:29:01You know, it's funny that you mention it in the way that you did, because that ties with some other
00:29:06research that I'm doing currently.
00:29:08I don't know if you know this history or not.
00:29:11Jim Jones was prophesied over by a female prophet in the latter reign movement, and that's really what launched his
00:29:19ministry.
00:29:20In the latter reign, the way that you were ordained as a minister, you didn't need credentials.
00:29:24You didn't even need to know theology.
00:29:26You just had to have somebody lay hands on you and say, you are the next minister.
00:29:31So he had this female do this for him.
00:29:35And with Hobart Freeman, who is another destructive cult leader that brought many, many people to their death from Indiana,
00:29:42not far from Jones, actually.
00:29:44Hobart Freeman, also the same kind of thing.
00:29:46He mentions Anna Schrader was the lady who apparently prophesied over him.
00:29:53There's an interesting part of the ministries when you look at them during the latter reign movement.
00:30:01You had all of the Mike Bickles.
00:30:04You had William Branham.
00:30:05He was the foremost leader of the movement.
00:30:07And he had his own ministry, and everybody looked at him independently from, say, William Freeman.
00:30:14He had a different ministry, a different prophetic ministry.
00:30:17And these were the key figures.
00:30:18These were the Mike Bickles.
00:30:20But behind them, like I said, you had to have these voices of confirmation.
00:30:25Without the voices of confirmation, there's nothing.
00:30:28There were females who were the confirmationists.
00:30:32And Anna Schrader was one of these people.
00:30:35When they wanted to rise up into power, there was always somebody to say, I had a prophecy, and that
00:30:42prophecy is just like mine.
00:30:44When you do this, people are sitting there.
00:30:46They don't question, did you really have a prophecy, too?
00:30:49They just think, oh, this is the mouth of two or three witnesses.
00:30:53And to the devastation of the movement, they abused the mouth of two or three witnesses in many cases.
00:31:02That's my opinion.
00:31:03I can't prove it.
00:31:04I can't prove that somebody is intentionally lying.
00:31:08What I can prove is that some of the figures, like Jim Jones, there's no way that God spoke to
00:31:15this woman and said, this guy's a good guy.
00:31:18Let's get him platformed.
00:31:19Let's get him a ministry.
00:31:21There's just no way.
00:31:21Hobart Freeman, same thing.
00:31:24And when you look at some of the alleged prophecies of confirmation, you can go on Amazon right now.
00:31:31You can type in Anna Schrader, and you can find one of her prophecies of the end of the world.
00:31:36And she was considered one of the voices that backed the Old Testament-style prophets that were preaching doomsday in
00:31:43the communist scare.
00:31:45So, you know, there's another Anna that was doing that.
00:31:48You know who it was?
00:31:49No.
00:31:50Anna Kane.
00:31:51Oh, yeah.
00:31:52Yeah, I have heard that.
00:31:53Yeah, so this is one of the things I figured out later with Paul.
00:31:58Well, she was that Pentecostal woman, right, who saw herself as a prophetess, and, you know, and, of course, her
00:32:11favorite prophet was her own son, right?
00:32:13So she was the one that was, but I mean, that relationship between her and him, I mean, wow.
00:32:21I mean, I've never seen a more, what's the word I'm, I mean, I know there's always a bond between
00:32:28a mother and a child, but this was, like, at a whole nother level.
00:32:32Like, Paul freaked out.
00:32:34Like, he just, if there was any sort of sense of separation between her and him, he'd just lose it.
00:32:40Like, he needed her.
00:32:42She was everything.
00:32:43Like, his whole sense of self and identity and everything came from her.
00:32:47Like, she was, right?
00:32:48But then she was very influential in prophesying into many other leaders in the movement.
00:32:55You don't hear a lot about it, because Paul, you know, kind of gets all of the press, but she
00:32:59was that mom, right, who basically said, you know, you're chosen, son.
00:33:04You're a miracle.
00:33:06If you have a movement that is familiar with this thing, see, I did not know any of this existed.
00:33:11I came after the movement, right?
00:33:13Right.
00:33:13But back in the day, apparently, you had female voices that would back the male voices.
00:33:17And some of that goes back to Amy Simple McPherson.
00:33:20She was considered to be one of the elite Pentecostal females.
00:33:25What's interesting is a lot of those movements morphed to, we can't have female ministers.
00:33:31Yeah.
00:33:32Not realizing.
00:33:32And you can't have, in Branhamism, you could not have a female prophet in the version that I grew up
00:33:38in.
00:33:38But in his previous days, Anna Schrader was one of the female prophetesses, right?
00:33:43So you had all of these voices.
00:33:45But what's interesting, and I'm going to say this with John Paul Jackson, too, what's really interesting, these people who
00:33:52were the Mike Bickles of the movement, not the John Paul Jacksons, but the big guys, they presented themselves as
00:33:59Old Testament-style prophets.
00:34:01And the way that they presented their ministries was that this is an addition to our Bible.
00:34:08It's not replacing the Bible, but this is the new book of Acts, basically.
00:34:13And our book of Acts is more like an Old Testament book of prophets and prophecies and prophetic histories.
00:34:21The problem is, if you go back and you look through some of the so-called prophecies, they're long forgotten
00:34:28because either, A, they're incorrect, B, they have no relevance to today, C, they have no relevance to Christianity whatsoever.
00:34:36Anna Schrader's book that you can get on Amazon is talking about the doomsday prophecies that she had during the
00:34:4250s and 60s, of which none of them really are applicable today.
00:34:48And she's long forgotten.
00:34:50You don't really think about Anna Schrader.
00:34:52Nobody hears that name, right?
00:34:54But she was the one confirming all of the Mike Bickles of the era who are preaching, Russia's going to
00:35:01invade, we're going to all die sin, get yourself prepared, come to the altar and give me your money because
00:35:06you won't need it.
00:35:07We're going into the afterlife.
00:35:08Isn't that interesting?
00:35:09Wow.
00:35:11Yeah.
00:35:11I, you know, going back to, I think a few weeks ago I shared this, I can't remember, it's Ecclesiastes
00:35:18though, and where Solomon goes, in many dreams and visions is emptiness, fear God.
00:35:23You know, my issue has never been whether prophecy is or isn't real.
00:35:30My issue has been, this thing is, is, has been so exaggerated and so misused and so whatever that it's,
00:35:41it's sort of like a gem, right?
00:35:42What makes a gem a gem is it's rare, right?
00:35:47Prophecy, I think for most people, and I, I could be wrong here, but at least in my circles, in
00:35:53my age group, it's most people roll their eyes.
00:35:56It's, it's, it's just like, it's lost its impact, right?
00:36:01God, thus saith the Lord gets most people when they hear that just turn off going, okay, or I had
00:36:11a dream, or any of those little lead-ins to sort of bolster what's coming next just basically turns most
00:36:18people off.
00:36:18Because again, you know, we're older, so we've, we've seen so much, right?
00:36:25I think it still happens, but I think it's, it's rare.
00:36:30It's like the real word of God, I think, is actually rare.
00:36:35And I don't mean the word of God, like the printed word of God, I'm talking about whatever.
00:36:39I just think, I think it's so completely misused.
00:36:43Misused, and I would say, in my view, based on what I've seen after, you know, nearly 50 years in
00:36:52ministry, I'd say 90% of what's considered prophecy isn't, or prophetic.
00:36:58I just think it's people's opinion with thus saith the Lord in front of it, you know?
00:37:03It's their perspective.
00:37:05Valid, you know, it's kind of like, you know, I was, I remember I got myself in trouble in the
00:37:101980s, because I was struggling with this.
00:37:14And my question, you know, JP and these guys, they'd have these little prophetic groups, right?
00:37:19They were, you know, going to raise up prophets.
00:37:21And I was like, well, why do you guys got to say thus saith the Lord?
00:37:25Or why do you have to put, I had a dream?
00:37:27Why can't you just say it?
00:37:28And then, if it happens, we'll all know, wow, we'll come back and go, how did you know that?
00:37:37And you can get, well, God showed me, right?
00:37:39But instead, we get 90% of your opinion with God, you know, with, you know, in the, what's in
00:37:46the casing of religious prophecy, right?
00:37:50You know, you've encased it in this, so now we can't say, I don't believe you, because now we're, you
00:37:56know, I don't believe God.
00:37:57I mean, it's that whole thing.
00:37:59And I go, you're putting people in very awkward positions because you're so insecure.
00:38:03Because almost every prophetic person I've ever met is painfully insecure, right?
00:38:09And so, it's like, you know, brother or sister, I'd be like, hey, you know, I understand you're scared.
00:38:15I understand all what's going on from, what's going on in your soul.
00:38:20But you're creating this me versus you kind of dynamic here.
00:38:26Why don't you just bring it and say, I have this, you know, I've been feeling something.
00:38:31I've been sensing something.
00:38:32And let us all listen and evaluate and look at it, right?
00:38:36One of the visions behind this whole Shiloh thing that never happened was that I believe Paul was right when
00:38:44he said, we see in part, we see dimly, right?
00:38:48And my feeling was that I just didn't feel like God entrusted anyone with the whole picture.
00:38:57I felt like he gave us all a piece that we're all a part of, you know, like Paul talks
00:39:03about the body, uses that whole analogy about the body, you know, some are this, some are that.
00:39:08Well, to me, the key to the whole thing was, well, if we could get all these different kind of
00:39:16people around a round table and everybody just sort of shared what they've been sensing, somewhere there's a composite word
00:39:24in here.
00:39:25Like there's some, maybe there's something here, some wisdom in all of this if we put this all together.
00:39:30But no, what we end up with was all these little siloed, you know, ministries, right?
00:39:37As all these guys are all trying to make a name for themselves and generate some income.
00:39:42And so it's all fractured.
00:39:44There's not a whole, you know, there's not a wholeness to it.
00:39:49So anyways, that was always my dream and do it in private.
00:39:51And then after, you know, you know, some time of getting everybody together and putting it all together, then, you
00:39:59know, share something that's full, that's well-rounded, that's got a lot of different perspective.
00:40:04You know, I remember a friend of mine who worked for the government said to me, she goes, you know,
00:40:12it's bad about working for the federal government.
00:40:15I go, what's that?
00:40:15She goes, every time you solve a problem, you create another one.
00:40:19She goes, you never win.
00:40:21Because when you fix one problem for one group, you create a problem for another group, right?
00:40:26And it's sort of like that, you know, that was my whole thing.
00:40:30Well, then, that's like, I saw that in the church world as well.
00:40:36So, I don't know.
00:40:38I'm just, I'm, it's sad in a way because I'm nearly 70 years old and I still have this thing
00:40:46in my soul, like, who are the real prophetic?
00:40:48Because I believe the world needs them.
00:40:51I believe, and to me, so, again, I see everything in word pictures.
00:40:58So, to me, the role of prophets is like signposts on a highway, right?
00:41:08In other words, they're not the road.
00:41:11They're not the journey.
00:41:13But along the way, they're saying, and this is what they did, right?
00:41:17I mean, if you go back and you look, you know, what did Old Testament cover, you know?
00:41:22They told you, hey, here's where the destination is, right?
00:41:25This is, you know, this is where you're going.
00:41:28Hey, you've just, you know, there's...
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