Women In Ministry: Charismatic & End Times Theology | Chino Ross | Episode 599 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Chino examine Hobart Freeman's changing views on women in ministry, tracing how his early charismatic openness gave way to a much stricter position in later years. They connect Freeman's shift to Anna Schrader, the broader faith movement, and the influence of figures such as Kenneth Hagin, Kathryn Kuhlman, and William Branham.  The discussion explores how end-time language, healing revival culture, and charismatic stage persona shaped theology across the movement. It also looks at the tension between Freeman's public claims, earlier recordings, and later teachings, especially on prophecy, church authority, and the place of women in leadership.  00:00 Introduction 02:43 Why Hobart Freeman’s View On Women In Ministry Matters 05:04 Anna Schrader And The 1966 Dallas Prophecy 08:03 Hobart Freeman’s Early “Message Of Faith” 12:00 The End-Time Message And Latter Rain Confusion 15:40 Religious Theater And Shifting Pentecostal Timelines 20:41 The Message Of Faith, Kenneth Hagin, And Mark 11:24 25:38 Women In Ministry And Freeman’s Charismatic Influences 29:03 William Branham, Pentecostalism, And Female Ministry Contradictions 33:32 Website And Resource Break 34:30 Freeman’s Early Approval Of Women Speaking Publicly 40:33 Kathryn Kuhlman, Signs, And Charismatic Stage Power 45:51 Mysticism, Secret Knowledge, And Stage Persona 48:17 Freeman’s Later Shift Against Women In Ministry 52:02 First Corinthians 14 And “Should Women Speak In Church?” 56:31 Freeman Corrects A Woman Publicly During Teaching 1:00:45 Freeman’s Later Explanation For Changing Views 1:03:13 Why Leaders Avoid Admitting Doctrinal Change 1:04:01 The Prophetess Exception Freeman Could Not Drop ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Cheno Ross,

00:00:46pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Cheno D. Ross YouTube

00:00:51channel.

00:00:52Cheno, it's good to be back and to talk about all things women in ministry.

00:00:57I'll never forget, there was a point in time, you and I have talked about this a little

00:01:02bit, but there was a point in time, I've walked away from this quite a few times now, and one

00:01:07of the times that I walked away, I handed everything over to a fellow researcher who was very, very

00:01:15knowledgeable about all of the research I was doing into Jim Jones, had contacted the

00:01:21Jonestown Foundation, and that's actually how I met this person.

00:01:24They had escaped the cult, and they were helping me help a lot of people out, and so it just

00:01:31made sense.

00:01:31I handed it over to her.

00:01:34And when I handed it over to her, and she started putting out podcasts and blog posts,

00:01:40et cetera, you can imagine the outcry because, oh no, John has hired a woman preacher.

00:01:47That was the comment.

00:01:49And she wasn't preaching at all, she was just sharing research, and she was going through the

00:01:54Bible and finding, well, this doesn't match what we were taught, and just simply telling what she

00:01:58found and read.

00:02:01There's such a programmed response to having a woman correct you, which is so funny in the

00:02:08movement, man, because there are times whenever the woman's actually right, and you're actually

00:02:12wrong as a male, I have come across it many times with my wife, and the times that I think

00:02:18I'm right and she's wrong, well, she's still right.

00:02:23But I think that's something that's a little taboo in this type of ministry, and I have some

00:02:30facts to share with you.

00:02:31I know you do, and there's a lot we're going to get into today.

00:02:34Even when you're positive, 100% certain that you were right and your wife is wrong, you're

00:02:40still wrong.

00:02:41Yeah.

00:02:43Well, yeah, it's an explosive topic, and the only reason really that I'm approaching this

00:02:50is because of its connection to Hobart Freeman.

00:02:54So there was a cornerstone in Dr. Freeman's ministry was the often recounted story of how

00:03:07the prophetess, Anna Schrader, had prophesied over him in Dallas, Texas in 1966, and in that

00:03:18prophecy had appointed him to this end-time ministry.

00:03:24So that is hugely significant in Dr. Freeman's life and ministry.

00:03:30So I will say at the beginning, John, whether you are in favor of women in ministry, and by

00:03:38in ministry, I mean teaching, pastoring, elders, all of that, or whether you're not, that makes

00:03:47no difference at all to what we're going to be covering today.

00:03:50This is simply my attempt to show what Dr. Freeman's view was about women in ministry, how it changed

00:04:02then how it changed again, and then, in my opinion, how there was a cover-up involved, very disingenuous

00:04:12by him trying to put the blame for the people not understanding why he is saying what he's

00:04:20saying, putting the blame on them, rather than simply acknowledging, hey, listen, guys and gals, I've

00:04:28changed my opinion on this topic.

00:04:30That is something Hobart Freeman simply was averse to doing.

00:04:34He did change his opinion on many topics, as all of us have, but the proper way to go about

00:04:42it, especially when you're a leader in a big church and a big movement, is to explain the

00:04:48transition in your own theology and in your own mind, where you were, why you're there

00:04:54no longer, and give all the reasons why, and give people time to adjust to that.

00:04:58That is something that Dr. Freeman was not very good at at all.

00:05:03As I said in the very beginning, when Hobart was newly charismatic, and maybe starting in

00:05:10the next podcast, John, we're going to actually give the historical details and data of this

00:05:16Anna Schrader business, because it's hugely important.

00:05:19People are very curious about it.

00:05:22Anybody who's been under the sound of Hobart Freeman's ministry has heard the name Anna Schrader

00:05:27and knows that he went to Dallas, Texas in 1966, and that's where I received this end

00:05:32time message of faith, this end time ministry of faith by God's prophetess prophesying over

00:05:38me, Anna Schrader.

00:05:39We do actually have a lot of details of that summer meeting.

00:05:44It was actually in June of 1966 in Dallas, Texas, and we'll talk about that more next time.

00:05:50But for today, what was the foundation?

00:05:55Here is an ex-seminary professor, old, dry scholar in Hebrew and Old Testament, and what

00:06:06is he doing with a faith message and a faith ministry?

00:06:09How did that all come about?

00:06:11Well, again, it all traces back to, first of all, his experience in the spring of 1966 at

00:06:20McCormick Theological Seminary in Chicago, where he and June were guests of Dr. John

00:06:27Ray and his wife.

00:06:28Dr. Ray was a former colleague of Hobart's at the seminary, guest of theirs at a full gospel

00:06:34meeting where Hobart received the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

00:06:37So that is in March of 66, and here, just a couple of months later, he's down in Dallas,

00:06:44Texas.

00:06:44Anna Schrader gives this prophecy over him, and he ends up with what he called this end

00:06:53time message of faith.

00:06:57And he was very proud of that.

00:07:00And early on in his ministry, he saw himself not totally unique, as he did at the end of

00:07:08his ministry, because we have references early on where he said that there were only maybe

00:07:14two other people in addition to himself, you know, who had this end time message of faith.

00:07:21So there is a little small clip, John, we're going to listen to on a very old tape entitled

00:07:27How to Release Faith.

00:07:29And there are actually several of these, at least two of these, that Dr. Freeman did.

00:07:35So let me just explain.

00:07:37Dr. Freeman would teach early on when he was traveling around to churches, to full gospel

00:07:42meetings.

00:07:43He would have messages such as his famous message on Gideon's army.

00:07:49And he would just repeat that wherever he went, you know, to a new group who hadn't heard

00:07:54it.

00:07:54So he had several messages on faith.

00:07:58And depending on the audience, maybe they had not heard this from him before.

00:08:02So he would preach it to them.

00:08:04So he preaches this message entitled How to Release Faith in 1971.

00:08:12This is early.

00:08:13He's only been charismatic for five years.

00:08:16It's not at his home church.

00:08:18It is at some meeting down in Florida.

00:08:22I think it was early enough in Hobart's ministry to assume that he did not yet have the recognition

00:08:29that he would get in the by the mid 70s where he could simply rent a hotel, announce a meeting

00:08:35and attract a crowd.

00:08:36So early on, he'd be a guest speaker at just different churches, as well as a whole lot of the

00:08:43full gospel businessmen's meetings.

00:08:45I don't know which it was of these, but I know it was in Florida.

00:08:50When you listen to the message, you put all of this together.

00:08:55He was teaching in a location not very far from where he was saved.

00:09:00He was saved on the road home in Tampa to back to St.

00:09:04Pete in 1952, as he always tells.

00:09:07When you listen to his voice, it is so different from the Dr.

00:09:12Freeman you're accustomed to when he's teaching at his church and later on.

00:09:16And he was just absolutely as wild as a March hare being chased by a pack of beagles.

00:09:24He is name it and claim it, faith and healing, miracle story after miracle story.

00:09:31I mean, it's just rapid fire.

00:09:34And I remember in hearing this message, one of the statements I remember him saying,

00:09:38because it's just rapid fire of all of the proof texts for faith and healing.

00:09:43He has them all memorized and they kind of get jumbled up in his mind sometimes, but they're all there.

00:09:49And it's just quotation after quotation.

00:09:52You know, you're snared with the words of your mouth.

00:09:54You can have what you say.

00:09:55The reason you don't have anything is because you're not confessing positively.

00:09:59And I mean, it is rapid fire.

00:10:01And then he goes on to say, and the gold and the silver on a thousand hills are yours because

00:10:06you're a joint heir and Christ has them.

00:10:09And if Christ has them and you're a joint heir, then you have them.

00:10:13And that's a verse he pulled out of Haggai where it says the gold and silver are mine.

00:10:19There's a verse in Psalm 50 that says the cattle on a thousand hills are mine.

00:10:24So he pulled the gold and silver out of Haggai, attached it to the thousand hills in Psalm.

00:10:30And just typical Freeman teaching back then.

00:10:33But we have about a minute that we're going to listen to here where people can get the feel for

00:10:39Hobart in 1971.

00:10:41It's from the six minute and 51 second mark to the seven minute and 54 second mark.

00:10:48As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.

00:10:51So if I think I'm sick, I'm sick.

00:10:52And if I don't think I'm sick, I'm not sick.

00:10:54I didn't say I couldn't fight a few symptoms.

00:10:55I tell you, you just have to give me more than one shot at you because you'll hear things tonight

00:11:01that you've never heard before.

00:11:02Or because I only know about two others maybe that have the message of faith in this hour.

00:11:08And I don't mean there aren't people with faith.

00:11:09And the people who do, I'm not saying who do not preach faith.

00:11:13I'm saying who have a ministry of faith.

00:11:15And it's entirely different from anything you've heard.

00:11:17Or anything that your mind could imagine.

00:11:19Because I didn't know there was such a ministry.

00:11:22I thought faith was a doctrine to be studied once every three years in the seminary.

00:11:26So every three years, we studied the doctrine of faith.

00:11:29But praise the Lord, since the illuminating power of God came through the Holy Spirit,

00:11:35he's shown me that I can release faith for everything in the word from Genesis to Revelation

00:11:39and have everything that I'm a joint heir to.

00:11:42And that happens to be the universe.

00:11:44The gold and silver on a thousand hills are mine.

00:11:47Oh, I thought you said, you said, I thought they belonged to Jesus.

00:11:50Well, I'm a joint heir with him.

00:11:51And in addition to just getting to hear Hobart when he's, what, 51 years old?

00:11:57He was born in 1920, so he'd be 51 years old.

00:12:00In addition to that, what you heard him say is that there are only two other men

00:12:05who have been given the message of faith.

00:12:07We know one of them.

00:12:09That's Kenneth Hagin, because that's who Hobart learned it from.

00:12:12I'm not exactly for sure who the other one is.

00:12:16But it's so interesting, John, that within five years,

00:12:20he's saying that he has the message, and he can think of two others.

00:12:25Rather than putting himself at the bottom of that pecking order,

00:12:29someone else, two other guys, had this message before I was ever on the charismatic scene.

00:12:34And I got the message from them.

00:12:36And what is that message?

00:12:38The end time message of faith.

00:12:42You know, I heard that a thousand times when I first began listening to Hobart.

00:12:46And I didn't realize the significance of that statement in his mind

00:12:52until I had spent weeks of listening to tapes,

00:12:55and then it kind of became part of the coded language.

00:12:58Because when I heard end time, after I'd heard that enough from him,

00:13:05this end time, end time, end time, you know, then as a 17-year-old,

00:13:10I began asking myself, where have I been?

00:13:12Again, I did not know that I was living in the last generation.

00:13:17I had no idea.

00:13:19I was a Christian.

00:13:20I was a member of a youth group in a Presbyterian church.

00:13:24But I didn't know I was this privileged to live in the last generation.

00:13:30And that's what Hobart meant by that.

00:13:32We are living in the end times.

00:13:34And he thought about it, talked about it, and, you know, he felt it so strongly

00:13:41that he would make statements saying that,

00:13:44I don't think that we'll even get to the end of this decade.

00:13:48And this was the 1970s.

00:13:50We won't even get to the end of this decade.

00:13:53Guys like him and others, John, were always talking about

00:13:56the former reign and the latter reign.

00:13:59I mean, I heard Derek Prince teaching on the former reign and the latter reign.

00:14:02There were so many messages.

00:14:05Hobart talked about the former reign and latter reign all the time.

00:14:09Although, I don't believe he actually has a message on that.

00:14:13And maybe with good reason, because he was confused about

00:14:16when was the former reign and when was the latter.

00:14:19Because if you listen to some early tapes,

00:14:22you will hear, oh, the former reign.

00:14:25It's a famous passage from Joel 2 that I'll send to you,

00:14:29the former reign and the latter reign.

00:14:30The former reign, that was the day of Pentecost.

00:14:33That was back in the first century.

00:14:35And then the latter reign is what began at Azusa Street in 1901.

00:14:43But then if you listen to other messages, listen to this.

00:14:47He refined that.

00:14:48If you listen to other messages, we're talking about the end times.

00:14:52We are living at the end of time.

00:14:54The former reign was Azusa Street, Topeka, Kansas, Charles Fox Parham, William Seymour,

00:15:04all of those people, 1901.

00:15:06That was the former reign, the early 20th century.

00:15:10And the latter reign is the neo-Pentecostal, neo-charismatic movement of the 1970s or 60s, really, for him.

00:15:20So it was just all completely confusing to me to try to figure out, am I in the former reign?

00:15:26Am I in the latter reign?

00:15:28I know I'm in the end times, and I know Jesus must be coming back any day now.

00:15:33Darrell Bock I have come to the conclusion that the whole thing was the acid reign,

00:15:37and it wasn't for our blessing.

00:15:40You know, so many things that you're talking about that really make me go back through some of my memories.

00:15:46And actually, I think I'm going to go a different direction than my memories.

00:15:51I'm going to go back to a podcast which you probably haven't heard but was just released last Saturday.

00:15:57I had Franklin Hall's grandson on the podcast,

00:16:00and he was talking through many things that fully did not resonate with me theologically.

00:16:08And you can tell from the comment feeds people wondering,

00:16:11John, why did you do this?

00:16:12What on earth were you thinking?

00:16:14But I have him on record saying many things that I suspected,

00:16:21but I didn't really have anybody to yet confirm it from some of the other leaders of latter reign.

00:16:27And that's where my podcast is interesting,

00:16:29because I can allow people who believe all kinds of things on the podcast.

00:16:34We're all researching, looking for truth.

00:16:37He came across my research, and he and I talked offline.

00:16:41He was a little surprised at what I had found and was now revising what he thought based off of

00:16:48the facts that I had.

00:16:49And he wanted to share facts with me, so he did, and we did it on the podcast.

00:16:54But one of the things that he said, whenever you think about this doomsday theology that you're referring to,

00:17:02and the shift from latter reign means this one thing, now it means this other thing,

00:17:07it really comes down to its theater.

00:17:09It is religious theater, that's all it is, and they're teaching whatever comes out popular to the crowds.

00:17:19And that's one thing that he admitted Franklin Hall did.

00:17:21He mentioned many of the leaders, like Franklin Hall, had a stage persona that they would put on when they'd

00:17:27get on stage,

00:17:28and the act that they had didn't really match the person.

00:17:31And so, as we're talking through that and his unusual support for Gnosticism,

00:17:38I got to thinking back to the way the Gnostics were,

00:17:41and there was a group that Irenaeus mentioned that talked about lies for the sake of a holy end.

00:17:46So when Pentecostalism came out, and I'm not saying they're lying,

00:17:50you can take your own theology off of that if you want to,

00:17:55but there were some of them who preached that this that we have now is the latter reign to the

00:18:01former reign that fell at Pentecost,

00:18:03and that came out of 1906 Pentecostalism.

00:18:06I think that some truly did believe that,

00:18:08but then some of those same people started the second movement and shifted the timeline.

00:18:15F.F. Bosworth was one of those guys.

00:18:18Bosworth started, he was basically resurrecting Dowie's ministry,

00:18:22and he and several others were paramites who were teaching the early form of the deliverance movement,

00:18:31which had killed some people in Zion,

00:18:33and they had to escape very narrowly escaping being prosecuted.

00:18:42I'll say it like that.

00:18:44But anyway, they started this deliverance thing,

00:18:46and many of them started saying that this is the second,

00:18:51this is the latter reign to the Pentecost.

00:18:53So this would, in fact, be the latter reign to the former latter reign's latter reign.

00:18:59And it really was all for theater.

00:19:02I don't know that many people really believe that who are teaching it,

00:19:06because how can you?

00:19:07If you have taught that this first version of Pentecostalism that we had is the latter reign to the Bibles,

00:19:14and the end of days is coming, which is what they taught, 1906 Pentecostalism.

00:19:19In fact, there were prophecies at Azusa Street of utter destruction of the cities, which never happened.

00:19:27So there were people who realized that those were failed prophecies.

00:19:31They did not come to pass, but it attracted a heck of a lot of people.

00:19:35Let's put on this theater, and let's try it again and see what happens.

00:19:38And that's literally what they did.

00:19:40And we're half a century or more removed from Hobart saying that the 60s is really the true latter reign.

00:19:49Just every generation that comes along, I think, is going to say we're at the end of time.

00:19:53I would encourage people to go read that verse and read the context, by the way, John and Joel, too.

00:19:58Both of those reigns, Joel says, will come down in the first month.

00:20:01They both come down at the same time, and I think it has to do with Israel,

00:20:05and I don't think it has anything to do with Pentecostalism of the 20th century.

00:20:10But that's for another podcast or study.

00:20:14But this phrase of Hobart's, God has given me the end time.

00:20:18We discussed that message of faith.

00:20:21I didn't know there was a message of faith.

00:20:23I just thought there was the Bible, Old Testament, New Testament, four Gospels, some epistles, Book of Revelation.

00:20:29I didn't know that there was a message, and it's really not a, we need the definite article, the message

00:20:38of faith.

00:20:40I learned that from Hobart Freeman, that there is the message of faith.

00:20:46It's the end time message of faith.

00:20:48It's trusting God for all your needs, no seatbelts, no lightning rods, no insurance, no medicine, no doctors, no leaning

00:20:57to the arm of the flesh.

00:20:58This is the end time message of faith.

00:21:01And so, what we saw in the 60s and 70s, and you know, by golly, it is still happening today,

00:21:11are all of these particular specialties where these ministers think, I have the message of faith.

00:21:20But Oral Roberts, he had the message of healing.

00:21:25And Ezra Coppin, he had the message of being slain in the spirit.

00:21:29And William Branham had the message of the word of knowledge.

00:21:34And T.L. Osborne had the gifts of healings.

00:21:37And Don Basham had a deliverance ministry.

00:21:40And this person had a fasting one.

00:21:42And that one had a holy laughter one.

00:21:45And you know, people will travel great distances, I have found, to hear any novelty.

00:21:52And to hear that, did you know that brother so-and-so is going to be in town, and he

00:21:57has the message of fill-in-the-blank.

00:22:01And so Hobart had the message of fill-in-the-blank with faith.

00:22:06And it all goes back to Anna Schrader prophesying this to him.

00:22:12Anna Schrader was a confidant and a friend of Kenneth Hagin.

00:22:16And Hagin was a part of all of this stuff in the mid and late 1960s as well.

00:22:22And we know how important faith was to Kenneth Hagin.

00:22:27And he is called, what, the father, the grandfather of the word of faith movement, the W.O.F., because

00:22:33he built this whole school, Rhema Bible Training Institute,

00:22:37and just trained these hundreds and, I guess, thousands of people on the basis of Mark 11.24.

00:22:45I knew Hagin before I knew Freeman, but I hadn't heard much of him.

00:22:50And when I heard Hobart stressing Mark 11.24, God's given me the message of faith, and it's all based

00:22:57on this verse, Mark 11.24, Mark 11.24.

00:23:01It took me a few years before I could realize, oh, that's not original to you.

00:23:07You know, I thought it was when I first heard him.

00:23:09Even though I'd heard Hagin, I just didn't pay enough attention, I guess.

00:23:13But Hobart I was locked into.

00:23:15And once I began paying enough attention, then I realized, you didn't get this from God or from Mark's gospel.

00:23:25You know, originally, you heard Kenneth Hagin stressing so much the prayer of faith and the Mark 11.24 type

00:23:34faith.

00:23:34You believe you receive when you pray, and then you shall have it.

00:23:38And every bit of that emphasis and even the way it was argued and presented wasn't original with Dr. Freeman.

00:23:47It came from Kenneth Hagin, and it could have even come from earlier sources as well.

00:23:53So we've got this man, John, who says he has the end time message of faith.

00:23:58And it took me several years, unfortunately, in my 20s, and it took just simply reading the Bible that I

00:24:09couldn't find any ministers that had a certain message.

00:24:15Like if you go over to Philippi, you can listen to Titus teach, and he'll be teaching on deliverance because

00:24:22God's given him a deliverance ministry.

00:24:24When you looked at all of them, Titus, Timothy, Barnabas, Paul, Apollos, Peter, James, John, all of them,

00:24:34what they went around the Mediterranean world teaching was the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ

00:24:43and what that meant and all of the aspects connected to that.

00:24:50That is from cover to cover in the New Testament.

00:24:52And, of course, you hear the word and read the word faith or healing or demons or gifts,

00:25:01but you don't see anybody who has, oh, he has the gift of the word of knowledge,

00:25:06and this one over here has the gifts of healing.

00:25:09All of these particular specialties, in my opinion, are not biblical at all.

00:25:15The biblical message is all centered around the cross of Christ, preaching Jesus, his death and his burial and his

00:25:23resurrection.

00:25:24And so to come across someone who is saying, I have been given an end-time message of faith,

00:25:32you know, eventually is going to cause me to question some things.

00:25:37So let's go a little further then with this because I do want to talk about women in ministry simply

00:25:44because

00:25:45Hobart claimed to have this ministry message from a woman, from a prophetess, Anna Schrader.

00:25:51So early in Dr. Freeman's charismatic ministry, this was not a historical fact that he tried to hide, John.

00:26:00He told over and over the story of the prophetess.

00:26:05Some of the messages will have it a little more in detail.

00:26:08Some of it he will just mention it in passing.

00:26:12And so we've got to put this within context.

00:26:15Dr. Freeman came from a Southern Baptist and then a Grace Brethren background

00:26:22where women were not allowed in a leadership role based on 1 Timothy 2.

00:26:29Women were not allowed in ministry and women were not allowed in a leadership role.

00:26:35So that's Hobart's background.

00:26:37Hobart gets introduced to the charismatic movement, the Pentecostal movement of the 1960s.

00:26:44And we know that those both were equal opportunity employers.

00:26:50There were men and women everywhere.

00:26:53As I mentioned earlier, one of the most famous women, the name is still regularly on people's lips,

00:27:01is Amy Simple McPherson.

00:27:02So we go way back to the early Los Angeles days, the early 1900s.

00:27:09You've got Amy Simple McPherson.

00:27:11You have other people like Maria Woodworth Etter, Jesse Penn Lewis.

00:27:17You have all kinds of women who were in ministry in Pentecostal and charismatic circles.

00:27:25And then when you come down to today or just modern times, well, Kenneth Copeland's wife, Gloria Copeland,

00:27:33you know, was an accomplished speaker.

00:27:35And she was out there traveling and behind the podium preaching, you know,

00:27:40almost as much as her husband Kenneth was.

00:27:44Kenneth Hagin trained men and women, allowed men and women in ministry,

00:27:50one of the important women under his ministry.

00:27:53And I don't know if you guys on your end, John, have done any research on Billy Brim.

00:28:00She actually lived in Minnesota.

00:28:02So I knew of her back in the days I lived in Minnesota.

00:28:05But I think she had been either a secretary of Kenneth Hagin or some kind of assistant of his,

00:28:12but herself became a prophetess.

00:28:16I think they call her, and she's still alive today.

00:28:18You can still, you can hear her on YouTube, Dr. Billy Brim.

00:28:23So it's some honorary degree.

00:28:25I don't know if given at Hagin School or Oral Roberts School or where.

00:28:29But, you know, even to this day, many of the wives of Pentecostal or charismatic leaders,

00:28:37pastors, are listed as the co-pastor of the church.

00:28:42And so this is what Hobart Freeman was birthed into when it comes to his charismatic experience.

00:28:48Women were in ministry in every regard.

00:28:52And Hobart Freeman had no problem with that at all.

00:28:57And you know that from the context into which he was birthed after being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

00:29:06One of the things that was really shocking to me as I was trying to untangle the mess that was

00:29:12in my head

00:29:13was going through the study of women in ministry.

00:29:17Now, this was before the lady come and help me with the website.

00:29:21But we were taught, much like you described the Baptist being taught,

00:29:24women should not be behind the pulpits.

00:29:26And I'm not arguing in favor of pro or con.

00:29:29That's up to you listening in your doctrines.

00:29:32But the thing that I did find was, much like you're describing with Hobart Freeman,

00:29:38Branham was all over the place.

00:29:39And purposefully so.

00:29:41He was disguised as a Pentecostal minister, disguised as a Baptist minister,

00:29:48pretending to have came in by accident into Pentecostalism.

00:29:52But he was a Pentecostal to begin with.

00:29:55And Pentecostals, as you mentioned, many of them were favorable of having women ministers.

00:30:01So here he is, pretending to be a Baptist.

00:30:04He's actually the leader of a Pentecostal sect.

00:30:07He has a female teaching his Sunday school at the Branham Tabernacle, which was my grandfather's church.

00:30:13Now, that's the historical version.

00:30:17The stage persona version, which I learned later, was that he left the Baptist church over the idea that they

00:30:27were allowing women to be ministers.

00:30:30Which wasn't quite right.

00:30:32I started looking into that, and no, they actually did not do this.

00:30:36And what he was referring to was Roy E. Davis, his mentor's Pentecostal sect, which allowed women female pastors.

00:30:44But the interesting part is, he talks about how saintly he was, because he wasn't going to allow the female

00:30:51ministers.

00:30:53But, as it turns out, his first wife was ordained as an elder.

00:30:59I don't know if you would call her a minister, but she was taking active parts in the church, teaching

00:31:04and teaching doctrine.

00:31:06You can find newspaper articles of her, whenever he married her.

00:31:10And so, he was deeply involved with the females.

00:31:14I'll just say it like that.

00:31:15And then, obviously, you find people like Amy Semple McPherson, who are big in this.

00:31:20But fast forward to the latter rain years, the early years of what would become Pentecostalism, become Charismania.

00:31:28He is working with people like Anna Schrader, calling her prophetess.

00:31:32He's working with other females who are either actively in the ministry or evangelism or even translators who are preaching,

00:31:43which is kind of funny.

00:31:44Because the translator, if I remember correctly, the translator is preaching to an audience about how women should not preach

00:31:50to an audience.

00:31:51That's how weird this gets, man, if I remember correctly.

00:31:56But the thing of it is, it's all over the place, because, again, it's more of a stage act than

00:32:01it is any sort of standardization of doctrine.

00:32:06They're appealing to the crowd and what the crowd wants to hear.

00:32:09And if the crowd wants to hear, we don't want female ministers, that's what they're going to preach.

00:32:14As with other things, if the crowd wanted to hear, we believe in Trinitarianism, Branham is praying to the Trinitarian

00:32:22God, the persons of the Trinity.

00:32:24But when he's preaching to the other crowds, he's condemning anybody who does to hell.

00:32:30So it really comes down to it's a crapshoot of what doctrine you get.

00:32:35The funny part of that is, and the part that does tie back to what you were saying, it was

00:32:41that crapshoot of doctrine, this blend of mass, that I believe helped him and Gordon Lindsay decide to start their

00:32:50deliverance training seminars, which eventually evolved into the deliverance training school that you're talking about.

00:32:56Because they had attracted such a crowd of a variety of people, they were all teaching them the doctrine of

00:33:03faith, which is what Hobart Freeman called.

00:33:07The doctrine of faith, in its essence, means the gospel of divine healing, which we've talked about.

00:33:13That was the doctrine of faith.

00:33:14So once Hobart comes in contact with this, he has come in contact with all of the different things that

00:33:20change his mind to what you're saying.

00:33:23But he learned it from these other sources.

00:33:26And that's going to continue to be interesting the next couple of podcasts, Sean, as we develop that.

00:33:32Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

00:33:40reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

00:33:45You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

00:33:52On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

00:34:00John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

00:34:06You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

00:34:13If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

00:34:19top.

00:34:19And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

00:34:25watching.

00:34:26On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:34:31If anyone has any doubts, all you need to do is find some of the earliest messages of Hobart's from

00:34:38the late 60s and from the early 70s.

00:34:40And he has a very jovial, agreeable spirit to all women speaking in a public setting, including women in all

00:34:54different types of ministry offices.

00:34:56And I want people to follow, by the time we're through with our discussion today, where Hobart ends up and

00:35:02what I think is just rampant and blatant dishonesty involved in where he ended up.

00:35:08And this is what upset me when I realized, now, wait a minute, this is not what you have been

00:35:13saying earlier.

00:35:14You almost get treated as though you're not very intelligent and you can't remember what you heard on a tape

00:35:20that was done 10 years earlier.

00:35:23So if you go to say, I'm just going to mention a couple of things here, John.

00:35:28There is, there's just so many of the early messages.

00:35:31He talks about, oh, I don't know, female missionaries in Mexico.

00:35:35There's a particular story he tells with that.

00:35:38Female missionaries in China, female missionaries in India.

00:35:43He talks about Jesse Penn Lewis, who is a woman, if people didn't know from the name, not a man.

00:35:49He was a huge follower of hers.

00:35:51He bought into and drank deeply from all Pentecostalism, including all of the women, teachers and prophetesses and ministers and

00:36:05missionaries and mystics and intercessors.

00:36:09He drank deeply from all of that and approved of all of that.

00:36:13So here is one, for instance, a very early message called The Fullness of God.

00:36:20All I'm going to do is just tell you what's on this.

00:36:23It is so early.

00:36:24It's in the Deeper Life series and it's number 204 with 201 being the earliest one.

00:36:32And then he has lots and lots that will come under Deeper Life over the next 14 years.

00:36:37But this was done in the early 1970s.

00:36:43And what he says, I think somewhere around the eight minute mark, it's early.

00:36:48People can go listen to it for themselves if they have any interest at all.

00:36:51But he's talking about this end time move and this special message.

00:36:56And we're privileged and you need to get out and hear the word and you can't get this anywhere.

00:37:00It's a Sunday night teaching because he says, I didn't put my wife up to saying from the pulpit what

00:37:08she did this morning, Sunday morning in the pulpit, when she was got up and exhorted everyone and encouraged everyone.

00:37:17Now, you need to get out to even the night services and listen to Hobart.

00:37:21You need to get out to all of them.

00:37:22Well, that's not something that would have been allowed later in faith assembly years for June Freeman to get up

00:37:30in front of the whole group and encourage them.

00:37:34You need to get out and hear my husband tonight, not just this Sunday morning.

00:37:39Also, there was a there was a message where a time where June, Hobart's wife, again, this is early on.

00:37:47This is back in the equal opportunity days where what's good for one is good for all, where Bruce could

00:37:55not speak at his normal Friday night glory barn meeting.

00:38:00And so guess who filled the pulpit for him?

00:38:02June did.

00:38:03Hobart's wife filled the pulpit for Bruce in the mid 1970s glory barn for a Friday night meeting.

00:38:12And, you know, it wasn't a big deal then.

00:38:15You know, nobody calls the ruckus because why not?

00:38:19Because they knew Freeman's in agreement with this.

00:38:22I mean, if Freeman had not been in agreement with that, June would never have done that.

00:38:27Freeman was in agreement.

00:38:28You could tell from all of the messages that Freeman was in agreement.

00:38:32So here's something we are going to listen to just briefly, John.

00:38:36And this is a clip from a tape done in 1970.

00:38:41Hobart did he did five messages in the book of Daniel.

00:38:46And then right after that, he did four messages in the book of Ezekiel.

00:38:51None of these.

00:38:52This was before the glory barn days.

00:38:53This was before Jerry Irvin's garage days.

00:38:56This was early on.

00:38:58They're still meeting back in the church under the water tower in Claypool, Indiana.

00:39:03But Hobart has these other meetings in Indiana.

00:39:07One of them was in Muncie.

00:39:09One of them was in Anderson.

00:39:11And you can tell from the recording, one of these old messages, you hear a grandfather clock going tick, tick,

00:39:19tick.

00:39:19I mean, you hear it through the whole entire message because he's in someone's living room or someone's basement.

00:39:25And they recorded the message.

00:39:26So he had a big meeting in Muncie and a big meeting in Anderson, mostly a whole lot of women

00:39:35because probably the men were at work or weren't interested in religion.

00:39:39And all the women gathered together.

00:39:41And, I mean, it was great times for the movement and for Hobart.

00:39:46I wonder where those dear and precious women are today, if any of them could even be alive.

00:39:53If you would have been in your, I don't know, John, 20s, early 30s, we're talking about 1970, you see

00:40:02what age these women would be today.

00:40:04But they're laughing and giggling and agreeing and just having a wonderful time.

00:40:10I mean, these are just wonderful messages to hear because Hobart's wild.

00:40:15He's footloose and fancy free.

00:40:17Got a whole group of women there.

00:40:18And he's teaching this, his, what he wants to say about some of the latter chapters of Ezekiel.

00:40:26So on this particular message from Ezekiel, which was entitled Rebuilding the Temple.

00:40:33Rebuilding the Temple.

00:40:36From the 40 minute, 31 second time stamp to the 42 minute and 55 second time stamp, you're going to

00:40:46hear him tell a little brief personal story about Catherine Kuhlman.

00:40:51But I noticed that those who have end time message have, I don't say everyone, just to give you for

00:40:59an instance, not to either, but I hear it all the time.

00:41:03I heard it all the way back from Pittsburgh, where I spoke over there last week.

00:41:08I stopped by Catherine Kuhlman.

00:41:10What was she preaching on?

00:41:12The pseudo-clearance of Antichrist.

00:41:15And the prophecy, just like we preach it here, friends.

00:41:19I'll tell you that big hall was packed out to hear what I give you in 15 minutes.

00:41:25Great.

00:41:26Yeah.

00:41:27All right.

00:41:28That's no criticism of her.

00:41:30What's the difference?

00:41:31You can't get them across the street and others to come to hear it.

00:41:35That's packed out.

00:41:37I mean, that's big.

00:41:38What is it?

00:41:39Something on the door.

00:41:40I need home.

00:41:42Well, it's as big.

00:41:44I need home.

00:41:45I need home.

00:41:45It's not ball.

00:41:46It's not ball.

00:41:47It's not ball.

00:41:48And they just sit there drinking it.

00:41:51Three hours.

00:41:52I mean, our actual teaching was just a few minutes.

00:41:55All the other singing.

00:41:57So, I mean, what gets them out?

00:42:02I'm like, I'll tell you what gets them out.

00:42:05It's the science, the anointing.

00:42:07That's why I'm very careful.

00:42:08You need it.

00:42:10I've contended that all along.

00:42:11There's no place.

00:42:12There's a place for the Word.

00:42:14If she didn't bring the Word forth, then there'd be no place for the other.

00:42:18Because you don't get people out just to minister.

00:42:22And so, I keep encouraging you to pray for the gifts and signs.

00:42:26They are the thing that will draw the attention of the people.

00:42:29That's why God set them in the church.

00:42:32They've been absent.

00:42:33That's why you can't get people to come out.

00:42:35You just get a little word out that somebody got healed over a month here in Anderson.

00:42:41You watch what happens next to you.

00:42:42I mean, some miracle took place.

00:42:45So, I'm all for it.

00:42:47Praise God.

00:42:48The thing is, she was teaching the same thing.

00:42:50I can't get you there.

00:42:53And I don't think we should account about the science.

00:42:56You used to follow the evidence.

00:42:58I mean, she never heard of prayer.

00:43:01I just haven't been around.

00:43:03There's a name, Kathryn Kuhlman, we haven't mentioned so far today, John.

00:43:08But, you know, Kathryn Kuhlman was huge in the 1960s.

00:43:13I don't know a lot about her.

00:43:15I think she was born in the Midwest.

00:43:17Only thing I can remember, well, I remember several things about Kathryn Kuhlman.

00:43:20I never saw her in person.

00:43:22I have heard her on and seen her on YouTube videos.

00:43:26And let me just say, that's not to my liking.

00:43:30It is just so theatrical and so, to me, weird and odd and mystical flowing around in this gown.

00:43:42It's just weird.

00:43:43But anyway, she ended up with a meeting in Pittsburgh and at, I don't know, one of the halls, one

00:43:50of the main auditoriums there, and held meetings in Pittsburgh and that place for years.

00:43:58So, in that clip we just heard, Hobart also had just had his own little meeting in Pittsburgh.

00:44:05Of course, he couldn't hold a lamp to Kathryn Kuhlman and who she could draw.

00:44:10And he said that in that little clip we just heard that after he got through with his meeting, before

00:44:16he drove back to Indiana, he knew Kathryn Kuhlman was speaking there at her normal venue, and he dropped in

00:44:22to listen to her.

00:44:24And it was totally with approval.

00:44:28And how he approves of her, he said, well, the way you know that God is with this person is

00:44:37we all have the same end time message.

00:44:40That's how you know.

00:44:41Well, of course, because they all borrowed it from one another.

00:44:44It's not because they all got it from God.

00:44:46They all borrowed it from one another.

00:44:47But he said that he dropped in, and Kathryn Kuhlman was talking about the revelation of the Antichrist, that she

00:44:54thinks the Antichrist is going to be revealed, you know, very shortly.

00:44:58That is precisely what Hobart taught repeatedly in the early 70s.

00:45:04By the early 80s, he isn't talking about it as much because so far, Antichrist hasn't been revealed.

00:45:11But he talked about it repeatedly based on his love that he had for the woman, Jean Dixon, the psychic.

00:45:20He read her book.

00:45:21She wrote a book called The Gift of Prophecy.

00:45:23He did not believe in Jean Dixon.

00:45:26Let me see.

00:45:27How can I say this?

00:45:28He rejected her as a psychic and as a medium and as a spiritualist, but yet he believed all the

00:45:35revelations that she gave.

00:45:37And one of them was she had seen Antichrist.

00:45:41He had been born, and Hobart believed that Antichrist was alive in the early 70s, only to grow up and

00:45:49soon take over the world.

00:45:50I mentioned earlier the unusual favoritism that was shown towards Gnosticism.

00:45:57And Gnosticism is the idea that you have the gnosis or the secret knowledge.

00:46:01One of the things that this movement taught, which Hobart Freeman apparently seems to have come into, is that mystics

00:46:09have some truth, and we can believe that some truth, but we can take it a step further because we

00:46:15have the gnosis.

00:46:16Only they didn't use the word gnosis.

00:46:18They used something different.

00:46:19But that flowed all through the movement.

00:46:21Brandon would talk about how the spiritualist would always pick him out of a crowd because he was, quote, unquote,

00:46:27born under a sign.

00:46:29And he would say that, born under a sign.

00:46:31And they looked so favoratively at spiritualists and mystics because they wanted to create an atmosphere for their own stage

00:46:40personas of mystique.

00:46:43And then you mix that with the theatrics like you're describing.

00:46:47What's interesting, you mentioned Catherine Coleman.

00:46:49I have to go back and listen to it again, but I'm almost positive that he was talking about whenever

00:46:56Hall had his, what was it, temple?

00:47:01I can't remember the name of the temple out west.

00:47:02But when he had his temple and he was preaching it anyway, Catherine Coleman was apparently one of the people

00:47:07who sat under his teaching.

00:47:09So she was being influenced by it.

00:47:11He mentioned Branham there.

00:47:13Obviously, Branham would have been.

00:47:14But the point is, all of these people were in a cohesive unit as it related to the movement, but

00:47:23were not in cohesion as it related to the theology.

00:47:26And so it didn't matter what theology you had as long as you had the mystique and the stage persona.

00:47:32It was all about that stage persona.

00:47:34So Hobart Freeman apparently decided that he liked that idea and started changing some of his own doctrines, like you

00:47:43mentioned, to match what they had because their ministries were bigger and better and more entertaining, catching more crowds.

00:47:52I don't think that he ever came to their level, but I think he may have been influenced just enough

00:47:58to think, well, if I change this and add this strategy here and tweak this little theology here to match

00:48:04what they're doing, match what the broader charismatic movement is doing, maybe I can have a stronger influence.

00:48:11And whether that was for the good or for the bad, I'm not going to say, but it seems that's

00:48:16what happened.

00:48:17Well, one thing that we're certain of is that he had to hold on to his belief of some kind

00:48:23of woman in ministry because of Anna Schrader.

00:48:26That was a whole foundation for his ministry.

00:48:29So that happens in 1966, all in the early 70s.

00:48:34He is favorably referencing women missionaries, women in ministry, women just in all kinds of leadership positions.

00:48:44But by the early 1980s, remember he dies in December of 84, he is singing a different tune.

00:48:53By the early 80s, he has shifted away from this blanket approval of women and women in ministry, and he

00:49:05has very obviously changed his mind.

00:49:08And let me just say, that's okay.

00:49:11You know, when people hear me make a critical statement against Hobart, and I say, he changed his mind, and

00:49:17they say, well, isn't that okay?

00:49:20100%, it's okay to change your mind.

00:49:23We all have that right, and we all need to exercise that right, because if we don't, then we're saying

00:49:31that we've never been wrong about anything.

00:49:33But what Hobart did not have the right to do, yes, he had the right to change his mind.

00:49:39We all have that right.

00:49:41So he agreed with women in ministry.

00:49:43So now by the early 80s, he's against women in ministry, and he's back to his Baptist Grace Brethren view.

00:49:50That's okay.

00:49:51You can flip, flop, and then flip again, and flop again if you want to.

00:49:57There's no law saying you can't have position A, then you adopt position B, but then on further study, you

00:50:04go back to position A.

00:50:06We've all worked through various doctrines or theological issues or biblical passages that way.

00:50:13You know, it just depends on not what mood we're in that day, but what is the most convincing evidence

00:50:20in our mind?

00:50:21And, you know, we generally go with whatever the most convincing evidence is.

00:50:25So I'm okay, let me say it for the umpteenth time, with Hobart changing his opinion on women in ministry.

00:50:34I'm okay.

00:50:35He changed from no women in ministry to yes women in ministry back to no women in ministry with one

00:50:41exception.

00:50:41We'll talk about that.

00:50:43And that's the problem to me.

00:50:45Yes, you have the right to change your opinion,

00:50:48but what he did not have the right to do was to be so rough on his congregation

00:50:55with this new position that they didn't know that he had that all of a sudden he has come into

00:51:03and he doesn't give them the same leeway, the same amount of time that he had in arriving at this

00:51:12position.

00:51:13The same is true, John, with all of his teaching on doctors and medicine.

00:51:17And, you know, at one time, Hobart wasn't opposed to doctors and medicine.

00:51:21He wasn't going to take medicine himself, but he wasn't opposed if someone else wanted to.

00:51:26He eventually got to a very strict position of no medicine, no medical science,

00:51:33no working in the medical field, and expected everyone else, just because he had arrived now at that position,

00:51:40expected everyone else to agree with him wholeheartedly

00:51:44and not give them a couple of years to think about it like he had spent a couple of years

00:51:49thinking about it.

00:51:50So I said he doesn't have the right to be rough on the people.

00:51:55What am I talking about?

00:51:56Well, he did change his position.

00:51:58He changed his position by the early 1980s, and where it comes out most forcefully is in his studies in

00:52:071 and 2 Corinthians.

00:52:08He decided to teach these two books, the two epistles of Paul to the saints at Corinth.

00:52:15He did it from 1981 to 1983 in a series of 59 messages.

00:52:23Here is my own handbook, typed up.

00:52:28You know, I would study Dr. Freeman's notes, you know, or study his messages.

00:52:33I'd write it out.

00:52:34So here's all my typed out notes from these 59 messages on 1 and 2 Corinthians.

00:52:40I know he did it from 81 to 83.

00:52:43It was probably a couple of years after that that I actually was able to obtain them and listen to

00:52:49them myself.

00:52:50Well, and you know, John, if you're going to do a study on 1 Corinthians, eventually you're going to get

00:52:57to chapter 14.

00:52:59And eventually you're going to get to the end of chapter 14.

00:53:03And eventually you're going to come across this passage that says women are not allowed to speak in church.

00:53:10And if they will ask, learn anything, they must ask their husbands at home.

00:53:15Oh, no.

00:53:17Now I've got to teach on this and talk about this.

00:53:22And so he does.

00:53:25But his position is not what it had been back in the glory barn days.

00:53:30So he has two tapes, John, parts one and parts two, entitled, Should Women Speak in Church?

00:53:39And you know, that's just a bombshell of a topic.

00:53:42It's a divisive topic for sure.

00:53:44It is talked about in the Bible.

00:53:46So by all means, teach on it if you are a pastor of a church.

00:53:51But you're going to take your life in your own hands when you do.

00:53:55But Hobart is the master of this congregation.

00:53:58And so on the first tape, part one, Should Women Speak in Church?

00:54:05He gives the different views of what does Paul mean when he says women are not allowed to speak in

00:54:11church.

00:54:11He just goes through what he thinks are the wrong, incorrect views, but different views on how to interpret that

00:54:19passage.

00:54:20He gets toward the very end of this message, and we are going to play this clip.

00:54:25And he ends up by going down the line of the five-fold ministry offices of Ephesians 4.11.

00:54:33He talks about the teacher, the apostle, the pastor, the evangelist.

00:54:39Notice he's left out the prophet.

00:54:41He goes down the list.

00:54:43He talks about those four, and he says that none of these can be found filled by a woman in

00:54:55the New Testament.

00:54:58But then he doesn't rule out the prophetess.

00:55:01He rules out the other four.

00:55:03He goes down the line and said none of these can be found in the New Testament.

00:55:08But he doesn't rule out the prophetess.

00:55:11And then he says, oh, I'm going to teach on that later, but they can't exist.

00:55:16And he is going to teach on it the next week in the next message.

00:55:20But what happens, John, at the 43-minute and nine-second mark is a woman interrupts him.

00:55:28He is actually asking.

00:55:30You can barely hear it on the message, but you can tell from his response.

00:55:33You can tell automatically exactly what's happened.

00:55:36He's asking for, does anyone know?

00:55:39You know, maybe I have not thought of it.

00:55:40Can anyone think of a prophetess being in the New Testament?

00:55:44Well, you can tell from the comment that a woman makes it, and she's referring to the passage in Acts

00:55:5321 or 22.

00:55:55I can't remember which chapter where it mentions that Philip, the evangelist, had four daughters, all of whom were virgins

00:56:02and all of whom prophesied.

00:56:04Doesn't say they're prophetesses, but said they prophesied.

00:56:07So this woman brings that up as, you know, an alleged place in the New Testament where there was a

00:56:13woman prophetess.

00:56:15So if we could hear, and this is going to be hard on your soul and your ears, because he

00:56:21takes this woman to task.

00:56:23From the 43-minute and nine-second mark to the 45-minute and 21-second mark.

00:56:31That's Old Testament.

00:56:33Well, they prophesied.

00:56:34Now, see, you need to hear our tapes on the gifts.

00:56:38That's the simple gift of prophecy.

00:56:40You can prophesy and not necessarily be a prophet or a prophetess.

00:56:44See, all that's dealt with on the gifts of the Spirit.

00:56:47And I wouldn't put you down for the world, sister, but does that come under verses 34 and 35?

00:56:54I mean, we have to face this, friends.

00:56:57She just asked a question in public.

00:56:58Paul says, don't do that, ladies.

00:57:02I wasn't throwing that out to ladies and gentlemen and children.

00:57:04I thought a man would answer if he knew about it.

00:57:08This is the way we learn.

00:57:10Now, some of you may stare at the floor and roll your eyes and clear your throat, because I come

00:57:15right to the point.

00:57:16But that's how we've got to learn to obey this Word.

00:57:20This is an end-time work, and God is trying to bring you into shape and condition to conform to

00:57:26Jesus and His Word.

00:57:29Women should not question in the public service.

00:57:32I just read it.

00:57:33And if they learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home.

00:57:36It's a shame for a woman to ask a question in the Church.

00:57:41And that's no put down to her, but how else are you going to learn?

00:57:45If we've been studying this for an hour and we get a question.

00:57:49Hey, friends, you've got to get serious.

00:57:52There are still some empty seats out there where they wouldn't take us seriously.

00:57:58Just like the clothing thing, that may be just enough to push some of you over the brink.

00:58:04You could handle everything but the culottes.

00:58:07I don't know.

00:58:08We may be down to 300 Gideons with dresses and men's clothing on.

00:58:14We just may be.

00:58:16Maybe that's what will do it.

00:58:18I've told you for years.

00:58:19It's the Word that will separate.

00:58:22And those who won't obey it will accuse us of legalism and blah, blah, blah, but that's too bad for

00:58:28them.

00:58:29So the only scriptural office in the Bible, I'm just going to say Bible, not Old or New Testament,

00:58:33is prophetess for the woman of the fivefold.

00:58:37I mean, there is a way in which he is, I don't know, maybe gentle to start with when he

00:58:44said,

00:58:44you know, I wouldn't hurt your feelings for the world, sister.

00:58:47However, haven't I just given a teaching that women have to shut up in church?

00:58:53And here you are talking in church.

00:58:57And, you know, as it goes on, as we just heard, he's hard on this poor lady.

00:59:04I wonder who that lady was.

00:59:06Surely someone out there in our audience was there listening to the 1 Corinthians 14 teaching and heard that.

00:59:13And, you know, Hobart talks about, I mean, Hobart just, he runs over her and he said,

00:59:18you can clear your throat, look at the ceiling, look down at the floor.

00:59:21But, you know, I'm going to tell it like it is.

00:59:24You know, this is an end time work.

00:59:26This is an end time message, blah, blah, blah.

00:59:29Instead of, John, saying, look, I need to explain that I used to agree with women in ministry and I

00:59:40no longer do.

00:59:42And here are the reasons why.

00:59:44And I'm going to try to share my understanding of Scripture with all of you folks, including all of you

00:59:50dear women out there.

00:59:52And from this point forward, you know, we're not going to be able to have that belief anymore.

00:59:58But since I obviously took me 10 years to go away from women in ministry to now a woman can't

01:00:05even speak in the church.

01:00:06Since it took me 10 years, I'm going to give all of you ladies some time to digest this and

01:00:12think about it.

01:00:13And, you know, and we'll reach this position here together at some point in the future.

01:00:18Instead of doing that, it's just I believe this now and you have to believe it as well.

01:00:24It reminds me of the masks in theater.

01:00:27You put on a different mask and it's a different person.

01:00:30That's the same thing Branham would do when he would go from church to church of different doctrine.

01:00:35You put on a mask and it doesn't matter what you've taught to all of the people before that you

01:00:39believe.

01:00:40And no explanation.

01:00:41Like you said, no explanation at all for the change.

01:00:44It just happens.

01:00:44And then, John, we're not going to play any clips, but I would encourage people if they want to hear

01:00:50all of this and hear it in context to look up these two messages on YouTube.

01:00:56Should a woman speak in church?

01:00:59Part one and part two.

01:01:00The end of part one is where he takes this woman to task.

01:01:03And I'll never forget, you know, I'm sitting there listening to my old cassette tape player wherever I was and

01:01:09I hear this woman and I go, oh, no, the boom is getting ready to fall on this poor lady.

01:01:16And sure enough, it does.

01:01:18And it should not have been that way.

01:01:21The second thing, and this is probably the most important point I want to make, is that on the next

01:01:27tape, the next one, should women speak in church part two, he pretends that he didn't earlier hold to a

01:01:35different view.

01:01:37And you know how he does it?

01:01:39And I was shocked and I was angered, to be honest with you.

01:01:42I was shocked and I was angered.

01:01:44Hobart takes a verse from the upper room discourse in John's gospel, completely out of context, where Jesus told the

01:01:53disciples, I'm going to depart, but I'm going to send the Holy Spirit to you and things that you can't

01:02:00receive right now, the Holy Spirit will teach you those things.

01:02:05Hobart takes that verse, he's used it like this in several regards, and he uses it like this, John.

01:02:11He uses it to pretend like I had the truth the whole time, but you weren't ready to receive it

01:02:19yet.

01:02:19You weren't to the spiritual place you could receive it.

01:02:23I had it all the time, but God has a time to bring forth every truth.

01:02:29This is what you'll hear on the first of those two messages.

01:02:32God has a time, and that time was not earlier, that time is now.

01:02:38And that is just a blatant lie, that's a person knowingly, I mean, right in public being dishonest.

01:02:48Hobart didn't hold that view earlier, and you can tell that from all of his early tapes.

01:02:55What he has done is he has shifted his opinion, but he doesn't have the Christian maturity or integrity to

01:03:07be able to say, I've got a whole different belief on this now.

01:03:11And we know, John, the reason people don't acknowledge that they change their view is they're afraid that people won't

01:03:17follow them in the future.

01:03:18You know, hey, if you didn't believe this in the past, and now you do, well, who's to say you're

01:03:24right now?

01:03:25I have a lot of respect, a tremendous amount of respect for someone who would come up front behind the

01:03:33pulpit and say,

01:03:34I formerly held to women in ministry offices, but I no longer do, and here are the reasons why.

01:03:42I have a lot of respect for that.

01:03:44Why wouldn't you respect that?

01:03:45Whether I agree with his current position or his former one is beside the point.

01:03:50It's just the fact that he has the maturity of an adult to say, you know, I didn't have it

01:03:57right, and I do think I have it right now.

01:04:00The problem, however, with Dr. Freeman was he kept holding on to this prophetess.

01:04:09He changed his whole view about women in ministry, but he never did change his view about a female prophetess.

01:04:18Here, in my own notes, at the very end of that message, here's what I typed out.

01:04:24I write,

01:04:25Freeman says that he does not have a proof text for a prophetess today, but he believes they can and

01:04:33do exist.

01:04:34So, he has to admit there are no prophetesses.

01:04:38Now, there's Anna, the prophetess, in the early chapters of Luke's gospel, but we're talking, that's in the Old Testament

01:04:45economy.

01:04:45We're talking about in the church.

01:04:47After the church is founded, he had to admit there's no true prophetess.

01:04:52There's no woman in any kind of ministry office in the church.

01:04:55He has to admit that.

01:04:56But he won't give up the fact that there can be and are female prophetesses, and why won't he give

01:05:03that up?

01:05:04One reason, and one reason only.

01:05:07And that's because his whole ministry was founded from a prophecy given by the prophetess, Anna Schrader.

01:05:14And I can't wait to get into Anna Schrader more, and her connection to all of this, and Branham's connection

01:05:21to helping create this mess.

01:05:23There's so many aspects of this that go so far beyond Hobart Freeman.

01:05:28It's quite interesting.

01:05:29Thank you so much for doing this.

01:05:31You bet.

01:05:32Thanks, Sean.

01:05:32If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

01:05:35You can find us at william-branham.org.

01:05:38For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to

01:05:44the NAR.

01:05:45Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:06:35Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:06:54Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Women In Ministry: Charismatic & End Times Theology | Chino Ross | Episode 599

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