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00:00The aftermath of the NFL Draft, and there are some great stories out there, but I gotta tell you,
00:05this might be the best one out there.
00:07Jory Epstein from Yahoo Sports was embedded, we'll say, with the Browns during the first round of the NFL Draft,
00:13and the stories coming off of her article have been really cool to kind of get behind the scenes,
00:19and she is nice enough to join us right now on the Make It Right Call Kyle Wright Hotline.
00:24Hi, Jory, how are you?
00:26I'm doing well, Andy, and Jeff, how are y'all doing?
00:28We are doing great.
00:30I gotta tell you, everyone's kind of talking about your article here in Northeast Ohio
00:34because you had such great access and some of the really cool things you were able to find out.
00:38Just kind of give me background on the story about how it worked out that you were able to even
00:41be in there in the first place.
00:44Yeah, absolutely.
00:45I mean, it's been a multi-year goal of mine in my career to end up in a draft room,
00:49and then when I started looking for this year, it was, okay, how do I get someone who's going to
00:54have two picks in the first round?
00:55Which, hey, by the end of the draft or by the beginning of the draft, I should say there were
00:59six teams with two first round picks,
01:01but that was among the reasons that I was interested in the Browns,
01:05and I also just think that Andrew Barry, I've known him for a long time now,
01:08and just understanding how his mind works, how his process works,
01:11I think that sometimes in the NFL the process of a team doesn't align with the results,
01:15and I understand it's a results business, but I wanted to spotlight that process a little more.
01:20So as early as February, I'm like, here's why I'm interested.
01:24Here are some things I could do, and then I will also say I should give credit to Peter King,
01:27who was a stalwart in this industry for a long time and had a long track record of embedding in
01:32draft rooms,
01:33and I did reach out to him, and I was like, take me through how you went about doing this,
01:37how you convinced teams, what you were looking for, read a bunch of his work,
01:41some other guys like Mike Silver, who have been in draft rooms and really tried to understand the process,
01:45so that come Thursday night, I was ready to go.
01:48Jory, your article, the way it reads, Spencer Fano was their number one choice all the way through.
01:56Is that the feeling that they gave you throughout the process?
02:00Yeah, I think what's interesting with this is that all of this,
02:04and Andrew talks about this later on in the story about quarterback, is where are you picking,
02:08what do you think is the best maximization of your resources?
02:11And I feel like some of the terms I'm going to read are going to sound a little coach-speak
02:14or draft-speak,
02:15but for them it's, yeah, that'd be greatest.
02:17Let's say there are four fantastic running backs, four Jeremiah loves.
02:21Like, yeah, clearly he's a great player, but if you have four of them on your team,
02:24is that going to help you catch the ball from your quarterback, things like that?
02:28And so I think that the Browns understood, first of all, where were the positions that were strongest in this
02:33draft?
02:34An offensive tackle was one that was going to be strong.
02:36Where are the runs going to go?
02:37I think I didn't really appreciate until being in the draft room and sitting through some of their meetings
02:43how clear it was that you have to really be aware of where the runs on positions come.
02:47And then when you look at it, what do you need?
02:49And so, yeah, they wanted to tackle.
02:51He was their top tackle, and I think it was really clear that they felt, okay, we could go down
02:55to nine,
02:55but if we go down further than that, we might miss out on him.
02:58And you saw right after they took him that a run on offensive tackle started.
03:01And so, hey, maybe there's a safety you really liked or had graded similar.
03:04Like, you can have moments like that, but part of this is what is your competition going to be doing,
03:10which I give Andrew credit because he really had a very clear handle of what the rest of the league
03:14was thinking also,
03:15which is so important for maneuvering the draft board and maximizing what you can do.
03:20Talk about the Chiefs in particular because, you know, my stomach's turning thinking about the level of trust you have
03:27to have
03:27when he's talking to Brett Veach from the Chiefs on trying to make that trade.
03:33And, I mean, I would be sweating bullets just to make sure he wasn't going to take an offensive lineman
03:38after he said he was going to make the deal.
03:40You know, like there is a huge level of trust that general managers have to have between each other
03:45if they're going to make a move like that, especially early in the draft, right?
03:49There definitely is, especially because with the draft being eight minutes per pick for the first round,
03:55now down from 10, these picks are, these trades are really largely worked out before the draft.
04:00Now, you might have three teams interested or five teams interested in the contingent on their player being there,
04:05and then you say, okay, I'm planning on doing this team, but if their person isn't there, this is my
04:11second best.
04:11But absolutely, I mean, and Andrew, last year with the Jaguars as well,
04:15I mean, that trade I think was working out even earlier than this one with Brett Veach,
04:18but he and Brett Veach do have that level of trust where they're willing to tell each other,
04:22hey, here's the position I'm going to or the position I'm not going to,
04:25and then maybe you're not saying the player, but having the assurance they wouldn't pick the tackle.
04:29And then, as I put in the story, because the commanders were at seven and the Saints were at eight,
04:33and they had Larry Tunzel just extended it, and then Calvin Banks drafted in the first round in New Orleans
04:37last year,
04:38there was a comfort level that, hey, first of all, there were a couple guys that they would like at
04:42nine
04:42if they couldn't get Spencer, and also on top of that, you're not waiting for the offensive line run to
04:48go
04:48because those teams were likely to prefer either defensive players or other positions of offensive players.
04:54You did a great job describing what it looked like in that room with the technology on display
05:01over, I believe it was five different television monitors.
05:05Do you get the impression, before you went in and since you've been in there,
05:09is that standard operating procedure for NFL teams, or is that something that the Browns kind of tailored for themselves?
05:17Yeah, it's a great question.
05:18I definitely do not think it's standard operating procedure, in part from what my understanding was,
05:23and in part from talking to people who work for the Browns now and other teams previously,
05:27I could not believe how high-tech it was.
05:29I mean, again, this is the first time I've been embedded for during the draft,
05:32but I believe there are still teams who are moving magnets around boards,
05:35and that's their primary way of keeping track of this.
05:38And as I mentioned in the story, every single time a draft pick happened,
05:42five databases were updating immediately of, okay, that player's no longer on our board,
05:47so the percentage goes down to zero for taking them.
05:49Okay, this team, cross out, fade, O-L, the offensive line need for them,
05:54because that's where it's going.
05:55Okay, move to the next pick, and now you have that team
05:58and all of its later picks lighting up in green.
06:00And I just feel like it allowed their decision-makers in real time and beforehand, too,
06:04because they were gathering all the information to create these databases.
06:08It allowed them to look at every decision from every different lens in real time
06:12while also having the logic and the decision-making beforehand.
06:15But it was pretty amazing.
06:17And I did count at one point how many seconds from when a draft pick was in
06:20to when the boards updated.
06:23And the time I counted, I didn't count for every pick.
06:25It was five seconds, which I thought was pretty impressive.
06:27And I asked their head of IT, Brad DeAngelis, or maybe head of football information system.
06:33I'm like, is that standard?
06:34And he was like, yeah, the goal is five to ten seconds.
06:36And also, you have backup paper versions in case something happens,
06:40because you never know if the whole league gets hacked, which was a concern.
06:42I think the NFL, I wrote on the story, at 8.02, they told all the heads
06:45of football information systems, hey, don't open any attachments and emails right now.
06:49There are some phishing people out there who are trying to get into your emails.
06:52But yeah, it was so high-tech.
06:54And from the trade standpoint, because the reality is, you don't want to be making an
06:58emotion or a panic-based decision when you're on the clock and under pressure.
07:02Or, hey, someone calls you with a trade offer, which I cannot believe how many calls they
07:06get for those offers.
07:07Some are better than others, of course, but so many calls.
07:09You don't want to make a rash decision because you like a player.
07:13When you could take that analysis of the player, take your understanding and your evaluation
07:16and put it with logic beforehand when the emotion wasn't as high three days earlier
07:20or three weeks earlier, and make it based off all your databases.
07:23So yes, I think that my understanding, I can't speak for all 32 teams, but I would be shocked
07:28if the Browns weren't in the top at least third in terms of how high-tech their processes are.
07:32And a trade offer comes in, it goes into the database and gets a technological answer?
07:41Yes, yeah, I did agree not to share all the details of how that trade tool works, but it's
07:47extremely impressive how advanced it is.
07:50And one thing I will say is Tom Telesco, former GM of the Chargers and the Raiders, is in
07:56the room, and just watching his reaction to it, not every team has had this for all the
08:01years.
08:01These guys have been working in the league, let's leave it at that.
08:04How important were guys like Tom Telesco?
08:07Chris Bolian was in there right over the Red Room story, Jimmy Ray.
08:11How much of the human element goes into it when you're looking at all those computer
08:15screens too?
08:16And I would think the first round would have more data and more research to make it easier
08:20that you wouldn't need the human element, but you do, especially when you're going to
08:24make the trade, right?
08:25So how much of the human element do you think Andrew uses in that first round just to make
08:31sure, or just to even, you understand where I'm going with that?
08:34Yeah, absolutely.
08:35No, the human element was huge, and like you said, it's not that it's huge during those
08:39eight minutes on the clock or the eight minutes for each of the picks the night before.
08:43It's huge in the days and weeks before.
08:44First of all, I think I have the number in my story that the scouts alone wrote 2,914
08:50scouting reports.
08:51Now, again, that's not 2,914 players, but that's how many evaluations that from like the
08:56director of college scouting down, they wrote this year alone.
08:59I couldn't even believe that.
09:01I thought when someone told me it was nearly 3,000, I responded via text, you mean nearly
09:05300?
09:05And they're like, no, nearly 3,000.
09:07And so the size of the staff there is much bigger than a place like, say, Cincinnati in
09:12the division, which has a really small front office department.
09:15Now, when you get to the meetings beforehand, it was really clear, because I did have the
09:18opportunity to be privy to some of the conversations before the draft as well, that the diversity
09:26of opinion was so clear, because you do have some guys who are, hey, economics PhD, and here's
09:32how I look at the probabilities.
09:33And then you have other guys who I've been working for five teams over 30 years, drafting
09:38personnel, and I understand that, okay, for example, like a Rashawn Slater, or a couple
09:43of, Will Campbell last year, like looking at other offensive women with shorter arms, for
09:47example, were they losing the battle because they had shorter arms or because they were
09:51injured or passed pro?
09:52And how does that factor into Spencer Fano, who doesn't have long arms, although I think
09:56that that's an interesting note, too, and I didn't include this in my story, but most
10:00of the combine measurements this year for arm length, the scouting community kind of thinks
10:04they were a little bit off.
10:05And if you look at the pro days, I believe Spencer's arms were like three quarters of an
10:08inch longer at pro day.
10:10And I just think it's worth noting for people who are being like, oh, maybe the college is
10:13just padding the numbers.
10:14It's NFL scouts taking the measurement of arm length at a pro day, too.
10:17And so for various reasons, over the last two years at the combine, arm lengths have
10:21been a little off.
10:21But all of this is to say that there are people who have seen other offensive linemen who
10:26might have that, or if you're Casey Concepcion and you're trying to understand, well, how
10:29much should we value the return ability?
10:31Well, you're talking to scouts who do understand how that has helped win over time.
10:35And so I think the human element was huge.
10:37Really having a healthy, spirited debate is something that I was really impressed with because
10:42I've seen at a lot of different places.
10:44And again, you guys can talk about your ownership in Cleveland.
10:47I'm from Dallas and I spent the first seven years of my career in Dallas.
10:51Jerry Jones is literally the owner and the GM.
10:53And I'm not saying he doesn't take other people's perspectives into account.
10:56And I happen to really like Jerry.
10:57He's fantastic for my job.
10:58But to me, seeing how many perspectives there were and how Jimmy listens to them was really
11:03interesting because you are not going to get an echo chamber of guesses in that room.
11:08You are going to get people who are viewing it from the player development standpoint,
11:11from the trait standpoint, from the production standpoint, and from the analytical standpoint.
11:16Jory Epstein, Yahoo Sports is joining us right now.
11:19She has an in-depth piece on what the Browns did on draft night.
11:22First night, she was in the room while everything was going on.
11:25You talked about the phone ringing.
11:27I'm just curious, do you get butterflies in your stomach when the phone rings all the time?
11:32And then how they're able to, I mean, I know it's part of their job, but I would think
11:35like it's got to be a little nerve wracking to hear the phone ring constantly, constantly.
11:39And then if I was a GM on the other side and the phone didn't get answered for me, I'd
11:43be like, ah, especially if you thought you had a good deal.
11:46Can I tell you something?
11:48I think you guys know Andrew as well.
11:50Yeah.
11:51I was a little bit immune slash impressed by some of the times he was like, just no,
11:57or like our deal or no deal, or that's not going to work for us.
11:59I mean, there was definitely a firm foot down that I was expecting.
12:03Not that I thought he would take a bad deal, but I thought I'd be like, oh yeah, no, I
12:06appreciate
12:06you offering.
12:07And it was like, no, we're not doing that deal.
12:09Like that's, that's not the price that we believe in.
12:11And there was just such a conviction again, because you have the data to back up what
12:14you think is a fair deal, which I don't think every team has as a clear and analytical
12:19infrastructure for that.
12:21I never nervous.
12:22I thought it was fascinating.
12:23That's what you want.
12:23You want to be there when there's action.
12:25You want to be there when things are going on.
12:26And I loved Andrew telling them after they took Casey, hey, we may not be done yet.
12:30So make sure you, make sure you, you keep paying attention, but also the fact that they
12:34were able to get the four players they did in the first two rounds.
12:37I mean, I know that like my colleague, Nate Tice at Yahoo sports had all of those four
12:43players in the top 25.
12:44So to get, I mean, when you think about statistically, if there's 32 teams, you should be able to
12:48get one top 25 player maybe.
12:51And then to get four of those.
12:52And I believe, and I haven't checked this yet, that Daniel Jeremiah had the Browns first
12:56four player.
12:57So all in his top 25, that's what Andrew Siciliano told me who I know works for Brown.
13:00Browns and works for us.
13:02So I just think when you look at the talent they were able to get, they were very pleased
13:06that the way they were evaluating guys did not necessarily align exactly with how other
13:12teams were, where in recent years, because of all the information available, there was
13:15some more similar thinking from team to team in the first couple rounds.
13:18All right, Jory, you said you've been friends with Andrew for a while, or at least you've
13:20covered Andrew, you know, Andrew, how has he changed?
13:23Cause we're looking at these last two drafts going, okay, great job.
13:27Great job again this year.
13:28I know we didn't have first and second round picks for three years there.
13:31How has he changed?
13:34And why do you think he, it appears that he's better at picking players over the last two
13:38years than he was prior to, but I think you have to give a little because he didn't
13:42have first or second round picks in some of those.
13:45Yeah.
13:46And it's interesting.
13:46I think it would be a little disingenuous for me to be like, here's what I think of
13:50his class four years ago, just because I haven't done deep enough study on it.
13:53What I can say is I think the more time people have in the position, they often can create
13:59more processes, have more data.
14:01I mean, I know when I was talking to Brad Holmes, the Lions GM last year, and I did a
14:04story
14:04on him and how he has a scouts doing their process.
14:06And he was like, look, there are certain numbers that he cared about.
14:09Cause he didn't care as much about 40 times.
14:11And some of the traits he cared more about production and physicality and competitiveness.
14:14And he said, I have a lens into this, but now that I have a few years in this job,
14:19I
14:20can basically have a sample size of data from my own team that I'm running and how I'm using
14:25my system to work with.
14:26I can't tell you having talked to Andrew about that, but I do think that when GMs are
14:30in the position for longer, especially when they're willing to evolve and get different
14:33voices in the room, there is an advantage because you, now you understand the people
14:37you're working with.
14:37You understand what works and what doesn't.
14:39Um, and so I think that, I mean, even look at less need with the Rams who has done such
14:44a fantastic job.
14:45Those first, I don't know, those five, 10 years, whatever, when they were in St.
14:47Louis, it wasn't going so well for him, but he ultimately found something that worked and
14:51developed a system, developed, um, cohesion with the head coach.
14:54Now, clearly the Browns need a quarterback or I shouldn't say clearly the Browns, the way
14:59I put it in the article, which I think is a diplomatic way of putting it is that if you
15:02don't
15:02have a quarterback who has recently and consistently produced at a high level, you are always
15:07going to be asking about a quarterback clearly answered at this point, as long as they don't
15:13have that clearly answered.
15:14I do think that that is a question for any, any front office and quite frankly, any coaching
15:19staff too.
15:20But I think that I've also seen teams and we all seen teams of Sam Darnold of the world,
15:25Gina Smith, et cetera, who come into the league as a quarterback and there's not a team around
15:30them set up to succeed.
15:31And so having the offensive linemen, having the pass catchers, and quite frankly, having a
15:34good defense, which is why, again, if it were me, I'm not sending miles Garrett anywhere
15:38because the more your defense does a fewer points that your quarterback has to score
15:42as they're adapting, it takes the pressure off them.
15:44I think as much of a young quarterback success in the league is scoring when early in their
15:49time, I think it's also being able to just do the little things and create comfort in
15:54the system at the higher level without having all the pressure for them.
15:57All of which is a long way of saying that when I, with Andrew, I do think that assembling
16:01a team of talent at a lot of different positions, whether or not you have the answer guaranteed
16:05at quarterback allows you when you do find that answer to succeed more quickly and ideally
16:10more consistently.
16:12Joy, you mentioned ownership in the draft room.
16:15If I owned a pro sports franchise, I'd be in the draft room.
16:18Why would you want to miss that?
16:19But with Jimmy Haslam in there, JW Johnson, would you describe their presence in the room
16:25more as spectators, as participants, or somewhere in between?
16:32Yeah, I think that is somewhere in between.
16:34I mean, again, coming from Dallas, which is the perspective I grew up, so to say, in this
16:37league with, it was not a Jerry Jones ownership is running the draft.
16:41I think that ownership was watching what Andrew and his staff, whether that's a Chris Cooper,
16:45whether that's Ken Kovach, whether that's Adam Alcayor, all of them have their different
16:50roles in this.
16:51They were the ones making the calls about the trades.
16:53They were the ones who had set the draft board, but ownership had clearly studied up on it.
16:57I mean, I don't think I put this line in my story, but when Jimmy, or when they drafted
17:01Spencer Fano, Jimmy was like, he played right tackle the last two seasons, but he'll play
17:05left tackle for us.
17:06So like, that was an ownership who had paid attention to what Spencer Fano had done in
17:10his career and understood the rule that he was going to be used for now.
17:14There were times when Jimmy wanted to understand, hey, what was Todd Munkin's perspective on the
17:18usage for this player?
17:19Okay, well, if one receiver has a certain size, what does that mean?
17:22And so I think that Jimmy and JW were both very engaged.
17:25I actually put in the story that there was one pick that JW knew it was coming off the
17:29board before it happened, and Andrew was impressed and amused that JW was keeping up with that.
17:35I mean, I actually didn't even know JW beforehand, but it was cool to see how they do stay involved.
17:40And actually, Jimmy's father, Jim, who's 95 years old, was in the draft room as well.
17:46And that was kind of cool to see just three generations of the family.
17:49And he had just printed out pieces of paper since the screens were a little bit far away.
17:53So I would say they were actively spectating is probably the best way I would sum it up,
17:59which is to say they were aware of the players.
18:01They understood what the goals were, but they were not making recommendations on here's what
18:05you should pick, much less making mandates and here's who you need to pick when I was there.
18:09Jory, thank you.
18:10We appreciate the time giving us a little bit more on your story.
18:13It is a must-read if you're a Browns fan.
18:15It's Jory Epstein's story on Yahoo Sports, and it takes you behind the scenes of everything
18:19that goes on.
18:20The headline is Inside Cleveland Browns NFL Draft Room, where the trade calls keep phones
18:25ringing and high-speed databases whirl.
18:27Thank you, thank you, thank you, Jory.
18:29Have a good one.
18:29We appreciate you.
18:31Great to talk to you, Andy and Jess.
18:32Thanks, Jory.
18:33We'll talk to you soon.
18:33Jory Epstein from Yahoo Sports.
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