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00:00You know her, you love her, ashleybass.cleveland.com, as she always does on Wednesdays at 3.20, joins us
00:05here on The Fan.
00:05Hello, Ashley.
00:07Hello, guys. Gee, nothing like a slow news day here on an off-season Wednesday, right?
00:12Yeah, it never really quiets down, does it? As you guys both know, being around the team.
00:17Before we get to that, though, I did want to shout you out.
00:21You're nominated for the PFW Writers' Therese Paylor Emerging Writer Award, so congratulations.
00:27I'm not going to say we always believed in you, but having you on the show, we've always believed in
00:32you in a way that just basically nobody else ever has, Ashley.
00:34So we'll take credit in the award the same way you should.
00:38Well, thank you, guys. I mean, really, I think awards like this, everyone always says it's just an honor to
00:43be nominated, but it really is.
00:46It really is. I'd be very happy I am naturally competitive. I will take the win if it happens to
00:52work out like that.
00:53Yeah, Ashley, Ashley, here's what I'll offer up to you. Here's what I'll offer up to you, okay?
00:57I don't know who the other—I think there's two other nominees. I looked in the thing. I think one was
01:01a Ravens insider. I don't know the other one.
01:03I'm willing to just shamelessly talk crap about both of them for a long time if you need me to.
01:10Don't do that. No, no, no. We're going to not do that.
01:12I know the message is like, go high when they go low. I'll go low. We can start this up,
01:16Ashley.
01:18This is starting out unhinged, and Nick's not even here. That's all I know. This is starting out unhinged, and
01:24Nick, who normally starts the unhinged-ness, is not here.
01:28We'll just turn this into, you know, Daryl versus Pony. We'll just take it to that level.
01:34This is already unhinged. We've already had another station-on-station fight.
01:37I know.
01:37This is quite the day that Nick is missing out on, if I'm going to be honest. He loves this
01:42stuff.
01:42He's a big fan. He's a big fan of shots firing, big boy.
01:45If I know him the way I know him, he would love to get in the mud for you in
01:49making sure that we just shamelessly just, you know, make sure that the people over there at the PFW know
01:55that you need to win this award and everybody else involved.
01:57It's just not as good as you.
02:00Oh, well, I appreciate your guys' positive words about me, and you know I love calling in every single week.
02:06So, yeah, just really, really excited and thankful for all my colleagues and the Browns beat and everywhere else that
02:14nominated me for this.
02:17And, yeah, I mean, let's keep the work going. Let's keep the work going, man, right?
02:22Well, now to the business at hand.
02:24What the hell are the Browns doing giving Deshaun Watson the lead in this, what is supposed to be a
02:30two-quarterback race all of a sudden?
02:32Well, look, I mean, I think it's really interesting, right?
02:36Like, I think this is certainly newsworthy developments happening here, but I think ultimately it's not that shocking in the
02:47sense of, number one, Deshaun Watson is the most experienced person in the room by far, considering there are two
02:54second-year players in there with him.
02:56And just the fact that we know that Todd Munkin is pretty intent on handling this quarterback battle differently than
03:05last year.
03:06I mean, when there were four quarterbacks competing for that starting job into training camp, it totally hamstrung the offense.
03:14It hamstrung anyone's ability to get consistent chemistry with pass catchers.
03:19And I think it's not surprising to hear that, hey, somebody's in the lead already, and it is Deshaun.
03:28Like, I think it's Mary Kay's story gives great insight into every angle of this, and she broke it earlier
03:33today.
03:34But I think it sort of makes sense when you see it all broken down, and, hey, we already knew
03:41there was a chance that they wanted to have this wrapped up by the end of veteran minicamp, and that's
03:47six weeks.
03:47I mean, it's not that far away.
03:50Yeah, I guess the surprising or disappointing part for myself, though, is that it just felt like, you know, Shador
03:55gets the first-team reps in the portion that was open to you guys.
03:58And so it's like, I don't know if they have a lead or not, but now all of a sudden
04:01he's got the inside track over three install days that Jerry Judy wasn't even in attendance for.
04:05Like, it feels awfully quick for them to have made up their mind that Deshaun has some sort of advantage
04:10over Shador here.
04:12Can I – I'll counter by saying I think if they say anyone has the advantage after the off-season
04:19program, like, it would feel like that, right?
04:22Because it's just the nature of this time of year and these practice sessions and what teams are allowed to
04:28do.
04:29Like, it's hard to make those decisions, but I think the counterpoint to that is you still want them made
04:35because if not, it could lead to disaster like I think it did last year and no one had any
04:40chemistry.
04:40So, yes, like, all the caveats of Jerry Judy's not there, the draft picks weren't there yet, guys aren't in
04:48pads, like, the best edge rushers aren't there, and even if they were there, you know, Miles Garrett is not
04:53actually hitting you.
04:54Like, all these things can be true, but I just think we saw last year what happens when you leave
05:00things open for far too long and you're so worried about dividing reps.
05:05And I like what Todd Munkin said last week about, look, everyone can be competing, but that doesn't mean that
05:10the reps are going to necessarily be the same.
05:12Like, you can't afford to.
05:13So, I think I understand some of the frustration, but I would caution anyone – and, look, I think also
05:20a big part of that frustration is people just have such a bad taste in their mouths about Deshaun Watson's
05:25past performance on the field.
05:27Like, that's without all of the off-the-field baggage that he's come with.
05:31It's just the results on the field when I say that, too, that I think are their own sort of
05:36thing for Browns fans.
05:37But I think I'm not surprised to see this accelerated a little bit because I think that has – they've
05:44always been very clear that that's their plan.
05:46And I think we've seen what it looks like when you carry over a three- or four-person battle
05:50into training camp.
05:51It just doesn't work.
05:52How much of this do you think is – as far as this narrative goes, Ashley – might be the
05:59Browns softening up the ground?
06:01Because I said going into the off-season, just we did.
06:03Like, I felt like Deshaun was going to look the best in practice because he's the experienced player.
06:10He's been through these off-seasons before.
06:13He's had to learn playbook – new playbooks before and all that kind of stuff.
06:17But how much do you think maybe the Browns are trying to brace fans for the inevitability that, yes, they're
06:26going to see Deshaun Watson play for them this year?
06:30Yeah, I mean, I think that certainly can be a part of it, right?
06:33I mean, I think you can argue that was a part of some of their messaging about Deshaun last year.
06:39And, you know, Daryl, you know this.
06:40We've had these discussions about how I think the outside perception of Deshaun Watson, particularly over the last, let's say,
06:5018 or so months, has been very different than the internal perception of Deshaun Watson.
06:56And I think that's sort of why you heard things last year about him being such a good teammate and
07:01mentor and how he was staying involved.
07:04And obviously, they opened that practice window for him.
07:08They let him get back on the field.
07:10Like, I think all of those things are, yes, like helping Deshaun through his rehab and helping the younger players
07:18by allowing him to share and help them develop in his own way that I think only a fellow player
07:25can.
07:25But I also think it goes sort of a long way to laying the groundwork for that messaging of, oh,
07:31yeah, like everyone that wanted to think that when he went down with that Achilles injury against the Bengals in
07:382024, that that was the last snap he played as a Cleveland Brown.
07:41And I think that was really just a perception among a lot of fans who don't want to see the
07:47guys start again for whatever their reasons are.
07:51And it's not the reality inside the building.
07:53So I think this is all certainly a part of it.
07:55And I think, you know, we've heard them say positive things about Deshaun.
08:00We've heard them say positive things about Shador.
08:03And when I say them, I mean specifically Todd Munkin and Andrew Barry.
08:06So I think that groundwork has been being laid for, you know, longer than just this offseason when it comes
08:14to Deshaun Watson.
08:15Ashley Bastock on the Make It Right Call, Kyle Wright Hotline.
08:19Well, I guess I would ask you then, how much, if I'm Shador, what do I have to do to
08:24close the gap now?
08:25Like, or is it just, are you looking at this, and then Shador would never look at it like it's
08:28done and it's over.
08:29But like, what do you have to do if you're Shador to, I mean, if they want Deshaun,
08:33and it seems like they've wanted Deshaun the entire time here based off of, again, making a decision
08:37or giving them the inside track after three install days, it's not great news for Shador.
08:42Yeah, I think if you're Shador Sanders, you kind of have to keep on this path that you've been on
08:48in the sense that, you know, he made an effort to stay here through the offseason.
08:52He said when he talked to us on that one open voluntary minicamp day
08:58that he didn't think there was any more important for anywhere more important for him to be.
09:03And I think it's really about mastering this offense as well as you can.
09:08And a lot of that right now, you know, we know that we're able to get on the field.
09:12You have to go through these phases in the offseason program.
09:15A lot of it is really player-led.
09:17Like, it has to be a very concerted effort to master the terminology, master these concepts.
09:25It's a learning curve for everyone.
09:27But the thing is, when you have a veteran quarterback who has been in multiple systems,
09:34Deshaun Watson is going to have a head start on knowing these concepts
09:37and even in some cases knowing the terminology.
09:40So I really think it's about getting that stuff in the playbook down
09:43and these concepts down, continuing to focus on what he can do
09:48and not get lost in this competition or outside noise about the competition.
09:53I think that's his best chance to kind of take over the lead here.
09:58It still might be a tough ask, but I think that's what you have to do
10:02if you're a young quarterback vying for that starting job.
10:05Because, you know, if you talk about where does he possibly have the edge,
10:09we know he played last year and Deshaun Watson didn't, right?
10:12So he has that going for him.
10:14But it's going to be about more than that now as Todd Munkin installs this offense.
10:18I floated this theory with Jonathan, a glass-half-full theory for Shadour,
10:24in that, okay, so we all know what happened last year
10:28with really not getting much of an opportunity to do much of anything in the offseason
10:32and really be involved.
10:34We know what the supporting cast looked like as well around him
10:38when he did get thrown into the fire.
10:41What if, and they're saying to themselves,
10:45we're paying Deshaun $46 million a year,
10:48Shadour now has to learn a second offense in as many years
10:51and repeat a process that, frankly, he never really had to do to begin with
10:56when he was in college or, you know, coming up
10:59when it comes to the complexity of playbooks and things like that.
11:04And this hit me when Shadour went on that,
11:06hey, that whole I-know-how-I-learn rant
11:09when we spoke to him last week.
11:11What if, glass-half-full, the Browns
11:16aren't necessarily handicapping Shadour,
11:18but they're giving him a longer runway
11:21to be able to learn everything.
11:22Like, Deshaun's going to have the first part of the season
11:24and that's going to be what it's going to be.
11:26Then we'll turn it over to Shadour
11:27and he'll have plenty of time to get caught up to speed
11:30and hit the ground running when he does play.
11:31What do you think of that?
11:33I mean, I think it wouldn't be the absolute worst thing.
11:38And, like, I think that's the important thing in all of this, too.
11:40If we get to week one and Deshaun Watson is the starter,
11:43like, I think anyone who's paid attention to the Cleveland Browns
11:47has known how it's gone at quarterback for the last however many years.
11:52But, I mean, I'll concentrate specifically on the last three years.
11:55In 2023, they had five starting quarterbacks.
11:58In 2024, they had four.
12:00Last year, they had three.
12:01There's been a lot of attrition in that room year after year.
12:06So, like, if Shadour Sanders needs a little bit more time,
12:09and I was talking this way last year when he was a rookie,
12:11like, I don't think that's a bad thing.
12:14And I don't think it means, oh, my gosh,
12:16like the Browns are never going to give him a chance.
12:18No one's ever going to give him a chance.
12:19It's like the end of the world if you want to see Shadour Sanders
12:24as your starting quarterback.
12:25I really don't think that's the case.
12:27It's hard to play in all 17 games.
12:29And if it is Deshaun Watson, you're also talking about a player
12:32who came off of two Achilles surgeries
12:35and a shoulder surgery the year prior.
12:38So, there's a lot definitely that I think you can look at and say,
12:43oh, Shadour Sanders, like, it's not going to be surprising
12:46if he's not the starting quarterback to still see him at some point
12:48because it's just how it's gone.
12:50And I think if he needs more time,
12:52if he needs more time to understand these concepts of this offense,
12:55and Deshaun Watson just has a head start, like, it's okay.
12:58It's not the end of the world to me.
13:00I do want to ask you, though, because we haven't done many of these convos
13:04baked with the idea that Deshaun would actually be the starting quarterback
13:06because we didn't have the inside track that Mary Kay has put out there today.
13:10And so, now that we have to look at it through that lens,
13:12last year of the deal for Deshaun,
13:14what exactly is the end goal for the Browns?
13:16Like, how does he have to play in order for them to say at the end of this,
13:20Deshaun, we're going to give you a big-time contract
13:23and we're going to make this all work?
13:25It's fascinating, right?
13:26Because I know when they first traded for Deshaun Watson,
13:31how they talked about him staying here was always long-term, right?
13:35Like, I remember Andrew Berry talking about when you make a deal
13:38for a quarterback like that, it's not in terms of a five-year plan,
13:42it's in terms of a 10-year plan.
13:43And, like, a big part of that was with the amount of money
13:47and the cap situation and all those things.
13:49So, I don't know how well he'd have to play to get, like, a huge extension.
13:54I mean, I think, regardless, he's not getting the amount of money
13:57that he got last time around from anyone.
14:01But, I mean, I don't know if they surprise people,
14:03if he's a starting quarterback all year, if they make it to the playoffs.
14:07Like, I think then you'd have to have some serious conversations about,
14:11hey, what are we going to do?
14:12Like, he suddenly made it interesting.
14:14But, I mean, I think it ultimately is going to take, number one,
14:17one, him staying healthy and playing all or a majority of the season.
14:21And, number two, surprising people in terms of the win expectations
14:26and possibly even a run to the postseason.
14:31Hey, there was a draft this last weekend.
14:33We spent way too much time together.
14:35I think you were probably sick of me faster than I was sick of you.
14:42But the...
14:43I'd still laugh, no denial.
14:43I know.
14:46I'm almost hurt by that.
14:48We all registered that, I'm just saying.
14:49I'm almost hurt by that, but I'm really not.
14:52Also, the proper response, though, if we're being honest.
14:54True.
14:55I'm waiting for Daryl to finish the question.
14:57I'm being polite.
14:58I'm sorry, I'm not sick of you.
15:00But this interview might be making me sick of you.
15:03We'll see.
15:04We'll see by the end of it.
15:06How do you think Andrew Barry did?
15:09You know, I would give this draft, like,
15:12it might rival last year's draft to me.
15:15I certainly think day two for this year's draft
15:18might be one of Andrew Barry's best,
15:20and it might rival last year's day two.
15:23So the thing is, I really like how they managed
15:26to somehow prioritize both tackle and receiver,
15:30obviously in different ways, right?
15:31Like, they took tackle first,
15:33but then they followed it up by taking two receivers
15:35and two very different kind of receivers.
15:37Denzel Boston is someone I have liked
15:40throughout this pre-draft process.
15:42I included him in multiple of my mock drafts
15:44going back to January, February,
15:47because I think he's a great red zone threat.
15:51I think it's like 14 of his 20 touchdown touches
15:54came in the red zone in his college career.
15:57He had 11 touchdowns last year.
15:59So I absolutely love the fact that they got him
16:02in the second round,
16:03because that was actually who I wanted them to take
16:06at 24 for most of the pre-draft process.
16:09And then I also love the chance in day two
16:12that they took with Emmanuel McNeil-Warren,
16:15because that was somebody who a lot of analysts
16:16had a first-round grade on.
16:18He fell into the 50s.
16:20It's sort of, so far, if this all works out
16:22how the Browns think,
16:23it reminds me of the JOK decision to draft him
16:27when he fell into the 50s,
16:28and the Browns thought that he was a first-round talent.
16:31So, you know, what's interesting with that,
16:34and I wrote about why it's a gamble,
16:35is because he did fall.
16:36Like, we know he did fall.
16:38But to me, because Andrew Barry said,
16:41well, there's no obvious reason for why he would fall.
16:43Like, I think that just tends to happen sometimes
16:45with these players that go to Mac schools,
16:48because people look at them and say,
16:51oh, it's not the same height of competition.
16:53So unless you're like an offensive skill player
16:55breaking records at the rate
16:57like Harold Fannin Jr. was two years ago,
16:59it can be really difficult.
17:01So, overall, I really like this draft.
17:03I loved the decision to take, you know,
17:05eight of those ten players were offensive players,
17:08and I love the swings they took, honestly,
17:11particularly in day two.
17:13Ashley, fantastic insight as always.
17:15We appreciate you.
17:16Everyone check her out over there at cleveland.com,
17:18and we'll talk to you next week.
17:20All right.
17:20Thanks, guys.
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