How Charismatic Leaders Turn The Unknown Into Fear | Podcast Episode 635 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Timothy examine the strange overlap between charismatic Christianity, UFO speculation, conspiracy thinking, deliverance ministry, prosperity gospel motives, and spiritual fear. They discuss Perry Stone, Fate Magazine, Voice of Healing, William Branham, Christ for the Nations, Derek Prince-style deliverance culture, and the way religious leaders can use mystery, fear, and spiritual language to keep people dependent on gurus.  The conversation also explores how money, politics, factionalism, and weaponized preaching can reshape the gospel into something driven by fear and control instead of compassion, truth, and spiritual maturity. John and Timothy reflect on leaving high-control religious systems, learning to dialogue with people outside the movement, and recognizing that many people who leave abusive religion are still on a journey toward truth.  00:00 Introduction 01:12 Timothy’s Charismatic Background 02:13 Arrogance, Growth, and Changing Perspectives 04:37 Perry Stone, UFOs, and Fear Narratives 08:28 Fate Magazine and Voice of Healing Connections 13:32 Demonizing Everything 17:02 The Wiffle Ball Analogy for Spiritual Gifts 18:35 Deliverance Culture and the Guru Problem 19:22 Prosperity Gospel Motivations 23:11 Money, Influence, and Church Leadership 27:11 Sponsor Message 28:09 Ancient Near Eastern Studies and Faith 33:01 The Problem with “Going Back to Original Christianity” 36:18 Dialogue Across Differences 41:04 Factionalism and Modern Christianity 45:28 Politics, Power, and Religious Messaging 49:54 Is God Bigger Than Our Theological Boxes? 51:37 Closing Thoughts ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Timothy Wisniewski,

00:45former member of the charismatic movement.

00:48Timothy, it's good to be back and to talk about all things messed up in the charismatic

00:53movement.

00:55There's so many.

00:56People are asking me, how do you come up with content?

00:58And I'm like, have you not seen what this movement is like, man?

01:02This is a never-ending pile of, well, I'm not going to say what the pile is, but I'll let

01:08you say what the pile is.

01:09Maybe you could introduce yourself for those who don't know you.

01:12Hey, everybody.

01:13It's good to be back.

01:14I'm Timothy.

01:15As John already mentioned, I am a former pastor in the charismatic movement.

01:19I grew up going to charismatic churches all throughout Northwestern Illinois, from Maranatha

01:26to Assemblies of God, and then to a non-denominational Pentecostal charismatic church with an emphasis

01:31on the gifts and prophetic words and all that stuff.

01:34So that's my background.

01:37Now, my wife and I really minister to unchurched people or people who are hurt by church, mostly

01:45folks that were hurt by church.

01:47And we have an emphasis on the ancient Near Eastern scholarship of the Old Testament, all

01:53the way up to the Second Temple period.

01:55And we rely heavily on biblical scholarship for that.

01:59People who were hurt by the church.

02:00So what you're saying is you have a never-ending pool of people to help, while I have a never

02:04-ending

02:05pile of something that you didn't tell me what is yet.

02:09Well, it's a pile of hoo-ha.

02:15And I think a lot of people, I don't know if I come off wrong.

02:19I almost had a hat that said, not for everybody, but this one says free indeed.

02:27But somebody made a statement on the last time I was on, and I appreciate it.

02:31I actually, I read all the stuff and the feedback, and they said, well, they were talking about

02:36the arrogance factor.

02:38And they said, well, do you think that you're approaching the charismatic now, like the way

02:44you view the charismatic, and what the same arrogance that you used to view the quote-unquote

02:48dead churches that we talked about the last time I was on?

02:51And yeah, I could absolutely be an arrogant jerk, like for all I know.

02:57I'm continuously evolving in the way I interact or respond or whatever.

03:02The difference is, I was intimately acquainted with the charismatic movement for decades,

03:07whereas I was not intimately acquainted with any other church or denomination whatsoever.

03:11I knew of them.

03:13I knew about them.

03:14I thought I had a handle on them and where they were wrong about everything.

03:17But my perspective and my approach to that was inherently wrong, in my opinion.

03:23So that would be the difference in my response to that sort of inquiry.

03:28But yeah, I could totally be, you know, like give me a couple of weeks.

03:32We'll see where I'm at.

03:37I have learned over time, and it's hard to do.

03:40I've learned not to form an opinion, because when you do, you trap yourself in a box.

03:45And I should caveat that every person is going to have an opinion of some sort.

03:51But if you try to leave the door open for other opinions, I guess that's probably a better way to

03:56say it.

03:56You don't trap yourself in this box that keeps you from proceeding forward and learning and growing and becoming better.

04:03I look at my past self.

04:05I mean, I'm one of the few people who will openly admit I believed a man from Indiana could create

04:11a squirrel with his mind.

04:12I believe the man had a magic sword.

04:15I was 37 years old believing this.

04:17And that's pretty silly.

04:20That was my opinion back then.

04:22I've learned, well, I need to open the box to that opinion might be wrong and go forward like that.

04:30So I have, and it's opened the door to all kinds of things that I never really thought possible.

04:37For instance, they just, I don't know if you saw it, the government just released this, they call it this

04:42trove of reports and documents on the UFO files.

04:46I get in there.

04:47I've got an open mind.

04:49And I'm thinking, okay, the government's being transparent.

04:51I'm reading through it.

04:52I'm like, I knew this stuff.

04:54Everybody knows this stuff.

04:55Why are you releasing the stuff that we know?

04:57Give us the stuff we don't know.

04:59But I don't know if you caught it.

05:01Right before that, leading up to that, Perry Stone says, they're about to release the big one.

05:07As soon as they do, people are going to be falling out of Christianity.

05:11I can't remember his exact words.

05:13Something to that effect.

05:14He says, they just held a private meeting, the government officials, with a group of ministers warning us this is

05:20coming.

05:21And I mean, he's spreading all this fear like this big thing's coming.

05:25Actually, to be fair, it did get me excited.

05:28I was like, oh, wow.

05:29I wonder what they're going to release.

05:31So I get there.

05:32I get there with his background.

05:33I'm like, no, man.

05:35There's no way that meeting ever happened.

05:39There's no information here.

05:41But it got me to thinking, because my box wasn't closed, it suddenly struck me, in all of the recesses

05:51of my mind, going back into the nonsensical 40s, 50s, and 60s, which is the doctrine I grew up with,

05:59we had UFO doctrines.

06:00We had a lot of them.

06:01We had UFO preachers.

06:03We had big name preachers that were preaching and spreading UFO.

06:07Christ for the Nations, the founder of Christ for the Nations, was publishing UFO books.

06:12And I have some of that research, but I never really connected it all together until Perry Stone said this.

06:19And then it suddenly struck me.

06:21What they're doing is the same thing they were doing back then.

06:25They know some information is going to come out.

06:27They know people are going to critically think.

06:30The moment they critically think, everything that they have taught unravels.

06:34You cannot allow critical thinking, and their teaching can't coincide.

06:38The moment it does, people leave.

06:40So it was like heading the enemy off at the pass.

06:44Yeah, a preemptive strike, if you will.

06:47It's kind of interesting that you mentioned that, because I was just listening to a podcast.

06:51And I like fringe stuff.

06:53I like stuff like that.

06:55I like UFOs.

06:56I like Bigfoot.

06:58And it's kind of a running joke in my family.

07:00And I just think that stuff's entertaining.

07:03But I also, I'm a big fan of the unknown and the unexplained, because I just think it's a part

07:09of being a human.

07:10It's part of creation, you know, discovering new things.

07:13I mean, there's, I don't know how many missionary groups that have discovered new species of insect, because they were

07:19there in the midst of them.

07:21So, but they were talking about that, that actually, that meeting, because Perry Stone has said something and blew it

07:29all up.

07:30And one of the guys, who I think Perry Stone was trying to quote, he just had to come on

07:36and say, hey, it wasn't like that at all.

07:39I invited a bunch of pastors to my Airbnb to talk to a couple of guys about this.

07:44And the information really wasn't anything we didn't already know, but it was mostly like to make sure pastors are

07:50aware and that we could point back to Jesus.

07:55So, the other end of that is the sort of the high conspiracy side of, just like you said, everything's

07:59going to fall apart.

08:02People are going to leave the church in droves, and this and this and that.

08:06So, it's kind of, it was just a little ironic that you just said that because of this, because it's

08:10now, right, it's in focus.

08:11It's the new pop culture.

08:13You know, it's another, hey, don't look at the Epstein files.

08:16There's aliens over here.

08:19Like, I mean, we're pulling out all the hats here.

08:21We're, forget about gas prices, aliens.

08:26So, that stuff cracks me up, man.

08:28Oh, yeah, absolutely.

08:30And I, not to give too many secrets, because I'm actually working on forming that into a podcast.

08:34I want to go through all of the, I've come across several different UFO pieces across the history I've done.

08:41I want to combine some of that and tie it back to what Stone was trying to do.

08:45But one of the things that hit me, and I had forgotten about this entirely, but there used to be

08:52this magazine called Fate.

08:54And I think National Enquirer mixed with UFO, mixed with who knows what all else, spiritualism, occult, weird stuff, right?

09:03The Voice of Healing magazine actually published and copied, like, printed article, this is from Fate, right there in the

09:10magazine.

09:11And what's funny is, I think there might have been a collaboration, because I was going through the timeline, I

09:17was piecing it together.

09:18The shift in the tone of Voice of Healing changed the moment they started publishing Fate images.

09:25That's right.

09:26The very first Fate image I found was a UFO picture, so.

09:33That's, yeah, that's very interesting.

09:35Well, I mean, you can get into the weeds with it, too.

09:38I mean, there's some pretty good documentation out there that certain clandestine alphabet agencies were working on bringing certain charismatic,

09:52mostly charismatic groups into sort of like a PSYOP culture and using their end times belief to promote certain things.

10:01And I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

10:04But it's really there, and they are well aware of how persuasive those messages can be.

10:12Absolutely.

10:13I've got some documentation on that.

10:15Actually, in the book, Weaponized Religion from Latter Rain to Colonia Dignidad, I've got some books, some quotes there by

10:23Nixon.

10:23He's saying that you ministers, and he's talking right to the Full Gospel Businessmen's Breakfast,

10:31which took place right after the National Prayer Breakfast held by the family, the Fellowship International.

10:38He's telling them, basically, the battle that we're facing today is the battle of the minds.

10:42And I'm paraphrasing greatly, but he says something in effect.

10:44We need you ministers to go out and sway the minds.

10:48And right after this, not long after this, is when all the weirdness really hit.

10:53Some of the bigger prophetic nonsense came into the movement.

10:58And I started looking through, again, not to hijack your podcast and talk about UFOs, but…

11:04I'm about it, man.

11:06I started thinking back through, I don't know if you've seen it, in Branhamism, there's this big cloud ring, and

11:13it's in a lot of churches.

11:14I remember walking into churches, and you'd have Branham's photo on the left side, usually the left, the cloud photo

11:21on the right side, usually the right,

11:23and you'd walk in, and there'd be the pulpit, and some of them even had the cloud hanging above the

11:28pulpit.

11:28And we were told that the face of Jesus was in this cloud.

11:33What happened, there was a, like all mythologies, there's a beginning that begins kind of commonsensical.

11:40Somebody photocopied that and gave it to Branham, because Branham had gone out hunting there.

11:45When a photocopy was made with another sheet that had Hoffman's Head of Christ behind the paper,

11:51so when the Xerox machine copied it, it literally did have a face of Jesus in the cloud.

11:57And so that began to spread, and some of them were, they'll argue to the moon and back,

12:04to the moon and back, kind of funny, that Jesus was actually peering down from the heavens in this cloud.

12:10Well, the cloud was the result of a Thor rocket detonation.

12:15They were doing missile testing, right?

12:16This was right during the era whenever they were really scared that Russia was going to invade.

12:23They were setting up the missile defense system.

12:25The Thor rocket was part of that.

12:27And part of that weirdness, you've got three areas.

12:31You've got, A, the unexplained, what they call them now, UAPs.

12:35We don't know what this is.

12:37You've got, B, there's some secret things that the U.S. government is testing,

12:42some of which may or may not work.

12:44And you've got, C, these lunatics that are like Fate magazine.

12:48I was caught up with a green alien.

12:51Interestingly, the I was caught up with a green alien turned into people like O.L. Jaggers,

12:57who's preaching, I know where those people are going.

12:59They get taken up by the aliens.

13:01That kind of doctrine was in the latter rain movement.

13:04Oh, no.

13:05And I'm talking, Jaggers is a big name.

13:08It's not like this is a small name.

13:10So, bottom line, again, not to hijack your podcast,

13:14there is so much weirdness in the movement

13:16that you almost can't top the weirdness

13:20with even the report that the United States government

13:22knows that there are unexplained phenomenon going on in the skies.

13:29I can't deny it.

13:30I, uh, and I think, I think the movement leans towards that because everything is, you know,

13:38so spiritualized, um, from, and, and you've talked about it, you've covered it at length

13:45with, uh, I can't remember, was a woman recently who to, you know, her mother, she grew up,

13:50everything was a demon and, uh, and man, that episode resonated so much with me

13:55because I grew up with some of that, like, um, you know, everything was the devil

14:00or it's an evil spirit or, you know, if I raised my voice to my mom

14:05and, and had a difference of opinion, what's the devil speaking, you know,

14:08that she, she would say that to me and for a long time, I, you know, I was hard pressed

14:14to find out what that actually meant, but she grew up, you know, the same thing

14:19and a Pentecostal movement and, you know, we've, we've had experiences with, with things

14:26that I would think were probably preternatural in nature, but it's not everything all the time.

14:33You know, I've, I've, I think the devil gets blamed for a lot of stuff that men just do,

14:38you know, and, uh, it's a very convenient out.

14:41It kind of usurps a little bit of responsibility and even consequence sometimes.

14:45I mean, we're seeing in coverup culture what that, you know, the damages of that.

14:51And, um, but we're, we really are primed for it.

14:55Um, the people in this movement are primed for that.

14:58Everything from, you know, you go back to the Derek Prince era, right?

15:03Uh, I think it was Derek Prince who, I mean, I remember watching videos where like,

15:08everyone had some kind of a demon and there was these mass deliverances in the video that

15:13took place.

15:14And it was like, and if you're feeling weird about this, it's because of a demon.

15:18It's like, Oh no, this is kind of weird.

15:21Do I have a demon?

15:23And you think, because this guy's got an international ministry, you think, because,

15:26you know, he has a background, you know, and whatever it was like, Oh, well, it must be

15:31true.

15:31And you're seeing people have, have very visceral reactions in the audience.

15:38They're falling over there.

15:39They're crying out.

15:41They're doing whatever.

15:42And it appears like there is some ministry taking place.

15:45But when you understand the dynamics of psychology and, uh, the way you can really, uh, manipulate

15:57situations, and you've, you've talked about ad nausea, right?

16:00Uh, with the music, with everyone's there to have a spiritual encounter.

16:04You don't, you don't go to these events, not expecting the spirit of God to not be there

16:09and to move.

16:10So in some way, every little thing that, that continues that like compounds itself on top

16:16of each other, it, it's an affirmation to whether it's your subconscious expectations

16:22or whatever it is.

16:24And that's not to say miracles and things don't happen in these places, but we're also

16:30priming ourselves for anything else.

16:33And there's no, like, what is the plumb line to say, what is of God and what isn't God?

16:39And my own personal experience, the plumb line to, you know, that I've seen was like, Oh,

16:44well, it happened in a church.

16:45It must be of God, or it happened under this minister.

16:49It has to be of God, you know, until later on down the line, somebody falls into error

16:54and, you know, but, but, but it wasn't at that event, you know, it was someplace else.

16:59So it's like, it, it, we really do prime that, that pump.

17:04I remember whenever I first became a parent, my son ran and jumped into one of these, I

17:09don't know what you call these things, these inflatable castles that had a million balls

17:13inside.

17:13Bouncy houses.

17:14Bouncy houses.

17:15So I had to go get him out of one.

17:17And he was, he was crying, something was up.

17:19I got in and didn't realize how hard it was going to be to move through there with a million

17:22bouncing kids.

17:23Right.

17:24Picture that and picture you've got a wiffle ball and say, say my son had brought a wiffle

17:30ball in there and lost it and started crying, dad, I want my wiffle ball.

17:33You know, how hard it would be to wade through all of those balls and try to find a wiffle

17:37ball.

17:38Right.

17:39Well, what it reminds me of people ask me, do you believe in the gifts?

17:43Do you not believe in the gifts?

17:44They're not even asking the right question because it's as though the real thing is the

17:50wiffle ball that's trapped inside of all of these million other distractions.

17:54And what they're asking me is, do you believe in the distractions?

17:58Well, heck no, man.

17:59I don't.

18:00There's no way I'm going to believe in the distractions.

18:02But that's what it is.

18:03And I had I had a lady on recently.

18:07She was talking about I can't remember what she was going through, something severely traumatic.

18:12And she said they they did the deliverance thing on her.

18:16She came up and they they told her, well, I hate to tell you, sister, but you've got a

18:21coven of witches after you.

18:23And she's like, oh, my gosh, how did a coven of witches find my name?

18:27And why are they attacking me?

18:28Well, that's the way that's that's the imaginary ball that they're throwing at you, right?

18:33That's not the real thing.

18:35And what they're doing is they're trying to portray the idea that you as the average person

18:40must go to the guru.

18:42It's really the guru type religion.

18:44You have to go to the guru.

18:46The guru is going to tell you how to be healed, tell you how to overcome the coven of witches.

18:52I can't believe I'm saying that on a podcast, but for me, it's just so fake that if you were

18:58to ask an average person on the street who's never been involved with any of this movement,

19:03who believes that there is a God who isn't really Christian yet, but entertaining the

19:08idea, hey, would you like to come to my religion?

19:10We're going to protect you from the covens of witches.

19:13What in the world are they going to think when you tell them this?

19:16Right.

19:16But if you grew up in this movement, you're like, well, that sounds legitimate.

19:22I have stories of things that I was I've been personally involved in.

19:27We had and it's interesting to see how certain scenarios played out with certain individuals

19:34because the individual going, you know, like I'm all about helping like, yeah, man, like,

19:39sure, let's go.

19:40Let's go cast a demon out or whatever, you know, and that idea was not foreign to me.

19:46Um, because of the way I was raised and, uh, but the individual who was asking me to partner

19:53with them, they had a very word of faith background, uh, but it was also prosperity gospel background.

20:00So there's a, there's a neighborhood near me, a town.

20:05It's very affluent.

20:06Like, um, if I, if I said it, it would give some things away, but, um, professional ballplayers

20:14have lived there.

20:15It's, it's, it's, there's a lot of horse, like no, it's a million dollar horse, uh, stables

20:19and stuff like that.

20:20And, um, it's a high tax area.

20:23And this individual that allegedly needed our help was in this, was in a very rich affluent

20:30area.

20:30And so I go, okay, well, I don't care.

20:32I'm just going to go, you know, people need help.

20:35I'll go.

20:36And, but the guy that I was going with, I think that he had a, like, Hey man, to him,

20:43everything was this opportunistic thing.

20:45Like if we get this person saved and delivered, they're going to start giving to the church

20:49and they're worth millions and millions.

20:51The motive was what makes the man.

20:53And I didn't get it at first.

20:55And then he's like, Oh, you know, just we'll, we'll pray over this kid.

20:58And I'm trying to find out like, well, dude, what's wrong?

21:00You know, like, and the mom's all wrapped up in this stuff, you know?

21:03And, and I just asked like, well, when did this stuff start?

21:07Personally, I think the kid had some, the kid was doing drugs in secret and he had a bad

21:13trip and it, and he, he went kind of nuts.

21:17And, um, but I, you know, I was still willing to pray for the kid, but we're going around,

21:22we're talking with the dad all of a sudden, and there's all kinds of crazy trauma in this

21:25place.

21:26And there's, he's got millions of dollars in cars.

21:31He's like, dude, he's like, you know, it's, uh, I can make a million dollars tomorrow.

21:35It's the easiest thing in the world to do.

21:37But you know, like this thing with my kid, I don't get it.

21:39And I watched the guy who I was with, his eyes lit up and he's just like, Oh man, if

21:44we can get these people in our church and like, that was, and he had the, I want to

21:50believe he had the best intentions, right?

21:52Help this kid help our church.

21:56They'll start coming to our church.

21:58They'll become tithers, yada, yada, yada.

22:01But I can't tell you how many times I saw something like this in that movement as a motivation.

22:08And that's from overseas to, you know, missions trips to people because of their background,

22:14because of what they believed and what they bought into as far as a prosperity gospel or

22:18a word of faith or the spiritual gifts thing.

22:22And you always have some sort of beneficiary because you hear these, these guys will come

22:26in, these missionaries or these ministers will come in, they'll do a conference at your

22:29church and they'll say, you know, well, there was a man there who God knew was a multimillionaire

22:34and he's a benefactor and we're, he's a benefactor now and he supports our ministry.

22:38Well, you got a struggling church with like 10 different pastors there who have all struggling

22:42churches and they hear something like that.

22:45They think, Holy crap, if I get X amount of miracles under my belt, then man, I could have

22:50a million dollars coming in here through tithes or, or this guy will pay for a private jet

22:54or whatever it is.

22:55And it changes the motive into something else than what the gospel actually is.

23:00Money changes everything.

23:01I've noticed that, I mean, that's why fate magazine exists and that's why voice of healing

23:06would publish fate magazine.

23:08That's how weird this gets, but that is so weird.

23:11I, you know, I, I grew up watching the favoritism because I was having, you know, there are tears

23:19and having been in the upper tier where I knew my grandfather, I knew him personally.

23:23I saw the personal side.

23:25I saw the stage side.

23:27I saw how everything ebbed and flowed, but I also saw the people who would come directly

23:32to his house and give him money.

23:34And this is off the books.

23:35This isn't going through the church funds.

23:37I was watching some large sums of money come in like this.

23:41And these were the people that grandpa liked to call on to pray at the end of the service

23:45and say, Hey, brother, would you, would you give us the closing?

23:47Would you come and say, give a blessing, give a benediction.

23:50So I, you know, you watch how all this works and it kind of plays out to some extent as

23:55a businessman, I get it.

23:57If you're, if you run a church, you run a business.

24:00I hate to say it, but in the United States, it can't work any other way.

24:04That's how us is structured.

24:06Got to keep the lights on.

24:07Got to pay for the water, the toilet, all, all of that stuff.

24:11So you have to try to get money.

24:13But the problem is that can go to your head pretty easily as a businessman.

24:17I can tell you the more money you make, the more money you want to make and the less money

24:22you have, the more money you need.

24:23So there are all these vicious cycles.

24:26The problem for me is that should be disconnected from the ministry entirely.

24:31They need, if you're a church, I think you need a separate entity and maybe it's a,

24:36maybe not even affiliated with religion at all.

24:38Just, we're, we're the ones who are going to manage the business side.

24:41Give us the management and don't play favorites.

24:45Don't, don't have prophecies to people that make them want to give them their money.

24:50It's a shame that that happens and you can, you avoid it.

24:53I don't know.

24:54I mean, it's talked about in the Bible, right?

24:56Hey, don't give the best seats to these people.

24:57Don't, you know, this is the way things are set up.

25:00Like it's, it's, it's a tale as old as time, especially when there's, when there's money

25:04involved and there's, there's, uh, things that have to get done, you know,

25:08whether it's feeding the poor or whatever, you know, and the way we were taught, you

25:13know, is that if this happens, well, it's God confirming your ministry, right?

25:17Because he's providing for you.

25:19Well, how do you, how do you discern, you know, how do you say, well, it's not, you know,

25:25especially when there's bills that need to get paid, you've been crying out to God for

25:28whatever.

25:29And there's ministers that I've, I've known that they have a lot of integrity.

25:35You know, they, they never did anything.

25:37I know a guy, probably one of my favorite people I've ever met.

25:40Uh, he was a Scottish guy from Scotland and he just came from the dungeons of Scotland,

25:46like a drug addict or whatever, got saved, got moved in his life.

25:50And he was a powerful minister.

25:51He had people that fly out to his church and, um, and wanted a private car to pick

25:59them up.

26:00And they wanted a certain color, you know, a car to pick them up.

26:04And he would drive out there himself and be like, Hey, we don't have that car.

26:10Have a nice trip back.

26:11You know, he would, he would like, and then I just preached that night, you know, like I

26:16respect that so hard.

26:18Um, and he's had rich people that try to take him out for lunch and dinner, you know, and

26:22be like, and he's, he would stop us before you even open your mouth, you know, like until

26:27you've, until you've been a part of my congregation for over a year, you don't get to have an opinion.

26:32And that's amazing.

26:34Like, and then I've seen the other side of that where, where people are just like, Oh yeah.

26:38Oh, you want to take me out for dinner?

26:39Oh my goodness.

26:40You know?

26:41And, and it's just like this subtle wooing and it's very seductive, especially.

26:47You know, like if you don't, if you come from nothing, especially if, you know, I mean,

26:53you know, if, especially if you're a poor old boy from Kentucky, I mean, there's, there's

26:58a lot there that could really, really kind of change, uh, potentially change a motivation

27:06and have pretty dire consequences.

27:08I mean, you really have to keep your checks and balances about you.

27:59And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're

28:04listening to or watching.

28:05On behalf of William Branham historical research, we want to thank you for your support.

28:10So you mentioned your work studying the ancient Near East and how that applies to religion,

28:16the Mosaic law, Judaism, et cetera.

28:18I recently had a person on the podcast who had left the assemblies of God and went into

28:23Judaism because it interested me.

28:26It really did.

28:28And people who don't understand the format of my podcast, obviously were greatly upset.

28:33John had this person on who left Christianity, but you have to understand most of the people

28:38who come from this religion are bruised and they all go on a journey.

28:41They all go on a pathway.

28:42Some go left, some go right.

28:45The worst of the cases are actually for me, my, in my opinion, those are just stop.

28:49I'm not going to go anywhere.

28:51I'm not going to do anything.

28:51I respect the people that make a move in a direction because it tells me if they're making

28:57a move, they're trying.

28:58And eventually they might try to get back on the right direction.

29:01So I invite everybody to the podcast.

29:04I may not agree with what they say, but I have an opinion.

29:08They have yours and they have theirs and I let them run with it.

29:12But the ancient Near East religion itself, the history, the ancient Near East religions,

29:17I should say, and their histories fascinate me because if you understand that system, understand

29:25how Judaism worked in spite of that system, and then understand how some of that system

29:32crept back into Christianity after Christianity was birthed, got deemed heresy, kind of got

29:39eradicated, and then the New Apostolic Reformation just brought it all back together.

29:44That history fascinates me.

29:46Well, I mean, there's some truth to it.

29:47Like there's something about, like that guest you had on, and I can't remember his name.

29:54So I'm actually Jewish.

29:56Like my family were Polish Jews with a little bit of Scottish and a little bit of English

30:00in us.

30:01Now we were never practicing, but I've had family members who lean more towards a messianic

30:10Christian philosophic system.

30:11And so I have a twin brother who, for all I know, is kind of part of a Jewish cult

30:18out

30:19in Seattle for a while and became a little volatile.

30:26I don't know where he's at now.

30:27We're actually a little bit estranged from each other.

30:30But, and my mother, you know, she had the little thing on the door that you kiss and, you know,

30:34oh yeah, we were, we were kind of proud of that, that part of our heritage.

30:39So understanding scripture, and your guest said it, you know, like it's important to

30:45know who the scripture was written to, like who the authors are writing to, the time and

30:50the culture in which those writings occurred.

30:53It's, it's paramount in understanding, like how we should translate scripture, disseminate

30:57scripture, instead of coming at it with a very Western confirmation bias, right?

31:03Which I can do.

31:04And you're, you know, that, that guest kind of did it too, with, but more towards the

31:11Jewish side of things.

31:12I wasn't going to say anything, but I just, you know, I was like, oh, well, well.

31:17And I love it, like, man, like, dude, go for it.

31:21Like, if, if you believe it, and I think you're right, like, if, if Jesus is true, right, if

31:27Christianity is true, and you're pursuing the truth, you're going to come back, or at

31:34least you're going to have to confront it, you know, and, and try and break your, like,

31:39I don't think you can break the truth.

31:40I think you can break yourself against it.

31:42Does that make any sense?

31:44Like, like, I, I liken it, like, um, so I'm a blacksmith.

31:48I don't know if you know this or not.

31:49So I'm, I'm a blacksmith.

31:50I work with metal, like, you know, banging an anvil and all that jazz.

31:54And that anvil's not going anywhere.

31:56You know, like, I can hit it as many times as I want.

31:58I might dent it, but anything I hit between that anvil and my hammer is either going to

32:03get upset, it's either, which is an actual term, it's going to get reshaped.

32:08You're going to, the whole structure that holds it together, the grain structure is going to

32:11get broken apart and then, and then you reform it and you put it through the heat and if

32:17whatever doesn't survive the heat, you scrape off and you start all over again.

32:21So that's kind of the way I look at the truth.

32:24That's kind of the way I look at scripture in general.

32:26You can break yourself against it.

32:29And that's not to say someone's not going to manipulate it or trying to turn it into

32:32their own thing, but it stands on its own, especially over time.

32:37And, you know, I think there's a reason why the Bible says you judge the fruit, right?

32:44What is the fruit that is producing in a person?

32:46You know, I think we're going to be surprised.

32:48I think we're going to see, we're going to meet some Jews in heaven.

32:51We're going to meet some Catholics in heaven.

32:53You know, we're going to meet a lot of people in heaven that we didn't think we're going

32:57to be there and we might even be surprised when we get there.

33:00Who knows?

33:01Yeah, I'm the same way.

33:02You know, it's funny to me because there is a movement now that is growing in opposition

33:06to all of the weirdness that I talk about on the podcast with the history.

33:11And this movement is trying to say we must go back to the true Christianity.

33:14We must take what we have today and go back to the original.

33:18And everybody who's not doing this, they're heretics.

33:20And they start attacking all the heretics.

33:23That really does turn into heresy hunting.

33:25And I was thinking when I came across one of these guys, if you could take them back

33:31in time and put them in one of the communities back during that era, they would realize that

33:38today's Christianity, even the ones that they deemed not heresy, is so, what's the word?

33:46Disneyfied.

33:47Disneyfied being, you know how Disney has the cartoon Hercules.

33:51And Hercules painted in this fairy book tale, children's movie kind of thing.

33:56Well, if you go back to the Hercules, man, it was brutal.

33:58They were sacrificing children.

34:00They were killing anybody who disagreed.

34:02I mean, it was awful.

34:04Well, go back and read some of the Old Testament.

34:06You find a lot of that in there as well.

34:08Go back to early Christianity, who just came out of Judaism.

34:12You can find it there.

34:13If you were to take them back in time and they were to watch what's actually happening

34:16in the Christian communities, no, man, we don't want to go back to the original.

34:20I'm sorry.

34:21That's where it would be.

34:23But I have come to the conclusion, and this is one of the few opinions that I'll give,

34:29that if there is a God that is in control and moves a people in a certain direction,

34:35those people will progress in a better way.

34:37And it's not really the original that you even want.

34:40You want the outcome, not the beginning, right?

34:43So it's like the journey.

34:44When I was talking about the guy who goes on the journey, it's not about where he is

34:47now.

34:48I can care less where he is now.

34:49Where's he going to end up?

34:51And he's taken the first step of his journey.

34:53He went that direction.

34:54Not the direction I chose, but that's where he went.

34:57I know other people who went other.

34:59I had a, I'll open up a bit.

35:02I actually had a witch on my show.

35:05She didn't tell me until afterwards, and I'm not going to mention who it was, but she had

35:09a story, and she had gone a direction.

35:10It's not a direction I agree with, but there were things that I learned her saying that

35:17I would not have known, and it actually gave me some puzzle pieces that I could fit in

35:21that I would have never had, and that's the beauty of having a podcast like this.

35:25If you've got a story, share it, because we all learn from each other, and hopefully,

35:30if everybody's on a journey, I mean, I don't promote Judaism in the same way I don't promote

35:35Becoming a Witch.

35:37I kind of look at that a little fictional fantasy as well, but they're on a journey.

35:42They've taken their first steps.

35:44What I want to see is people who share enough where you can realize that those who left

35:49Christianity or thought they left Christianity, what they left was something else.

35:54What we had was something else.

35:56It is in no way, shape, or form did what I leave resemble Christianity, but that's what

36:02they called it, and interestingly, they called themselves the true Christians that were back

36:06to the original, and I will say what I came from wasn't even Disney-fied.

36:11It was like Stephen King-ified.

36:14The brutalist movement.

36:17Yeah, there's, yeah, dialogue, like, we see Jesus talking to people that weren't spoken

36:27to, you know, we see the disciples doing it.

36:31We see people from other nations coming, and Philip, you know, talking to a guy.

36:37There, there's, we have pagan gods who come to, or not pagan gods, but we have kings who

36:43come to, like, Elijah, and, and he says to, he says to Elijah afterwards, you know, after

36:50he gets healed, and, and, um, he goes, hey, man, like, I have to take, you know, he was

36:56a helper.

36:57He wasn't even a king, I don't think.

36:58He's like, I have to, I have to take my master, and I, we have to go to the temple

37:01of

37:02Dagon, or whatever it was, and I have to go and, and, and.

37:07And help him with his rituals, because he's infirm.

37:10And he was real concerned about it, he goes, can I take this, this ground with me, because

37:14he, you know, there's a certain sacred cosmology there, and, and sacred geography, where he

37:19believed he was taking, you know, the, the land of Yahweh back with him, and, and it was

37:24a sacred space.

37:25He says, I want to, I want two cards to this, grab earth, but, you know, is it okay that

37:31I go in and take care of my master?

37:33And Elijah's like, do it, you know, do it as you see good unto you.

37:37And that whole sequence is to show us that it's about believing loyalty, the, the dialogue

37:43and the other cultures, when Jesus, when God comes, when Yahweh comes, and, and he pulls

37:49his people out, he separates them from the rest of the nations, he doesn't change their

37:53culture immediately.

37:55Like, it's over time, he's like, I can work with this, or I will work with it, because

38:00I'm God, you know, and it, and he's big enough.

38:04And so, there's some things that, even in, like, the Jewish culture, where, like, when

38:09Jesus shows up, he's like, hey, man, it, it doesn't really apply.

38:14Um, you've even added stuff, you know, beyond the decitude, you've added stuff beyond, well,

38:19you know, what Moses delivered.

38:22And, and he comes and he, he says, but hey, you know, here's a different way.

38:27Here's a better way.

38:28And, and he goes from there, declaring the kingdom.

38:31And so, I think we have to look at all this stuff pretty holistically, see, see what it

38:37is, what it's not.

38:38And man, like I said before, you know, the moment I got out of, and people will probably

38:44have a problem with this, but when I started, when I reentered the secular workforce, and

38:48I was able to actually talk to people who didn't share all of my opinions, or all of my

38:54worldview, my life was so much more greatly enriched, and I didn't enter into a bunch of

38:59sin.

39:00I didn't, like, I didn't become a pagan and start doing all this stuff.

39:06Like, I still have my beliefs, but what I have now is I have a heart, and a, um, I

39:14have

39:14a compassion that motivates me to, to just open a dialogue with just about anybody.

39:19And, and that's, that is awesome to me, to be able to just talk to anybody about anything

39:24and not constantly be worried about when am I going to interject the gospel and this and

39:28that.

39:28Like, I'm living the gospel.

39:29I don't have to, like, get, you know, my three-point sermon in and have someone make

39:33a decision in 30 seconds or less, and it's just, just where I'm at now.

39:37Oh, absolutely.

39:39I'm a big fan of cartoons.

39:41Those, of those of you who know me know that I would rather watch a cartoon than anything

39:46with real people in it.

39:47But I like the old ones because they bring back a time that I didn't get to experience.

39:54Oh, yeah.

39:55Bluey cartoons.

39:56I have seen bluey cartoons.

39:57For those who are listening, instead of watching, he opened up his shirt and he's got bluey.

40:02Well, I like the things like Johnny Quest.

40:05I'll sit down, man, I'll watch hours of Johnny Quest, right?

40:09Well, think about Johnny Quest.

40:10You've got Dr. Quest and you've got Johnny, obviously, but you've got a Hindu in there

40:15with you.

40:16And they respect each other.

40:17They're kind to each other.

40:18And sometimes they will go on a mission that they're talking to some other religion.

40:22And there's this mutual respect without having to be in mutual agreement, if that makes any

40:30sense.

40:31I look back at some, even the television shows, I do from time to time, I go back, watch some

40:36of the old 50s and 60s TV shows just to get a sense of the culture.

40:41And the same thing kind of existed in that culture as well.

40:45Fast forward to modern times, everything's entirely different.

40:48They, you do have like, what's a good example, Big Bang Theory.

40:53You do have a variety of people there and they come together, but it's more like an in your

40:58face, we're different, so therefore we're together kind of thing, rather than a mutual

41:02respect kind of thing.

41:04Rivalism.

41:05Yeah, exactly.

41:07Well, Christianity has evolved in such a way because of this weird mess where you're trying

41:14to fight the invisible demon that's out to get you.

41:16You're trying to demonize and spiritualize everything.

41:20Well, that applies to people as well.

41:22A person who has a difference of opinion, they go a different direction, they're demonized.

41:27And we're supposed to rebuke them.

41:29As a Christian, we must rebuke them, or so I'm air quoting Christian, as an air quote

41:34Christian, you must rebuke the person who doesn't agree with your philosophy or theology.

41:41I was never like that.

41:44And inwardly, I like people.

41:46I will always like people.

41:47And I based most of my being, not on Johnny Quest, because we weren't allowed cartoons,

41:56but just simply reading the Bible.

41:58Look at David, who's with the king of Tyre.

42:01And great friends, great political alliance, the king of Tyre in paganism fully.

42:06And David, you know, the God of Israel versus the pagan city of Tyre, which was the port city

42:14that was literally responsible for most of the development of the ancient mythologies.

42:20It was a port city where the Greek religions and the Roman religions were all coming into

42:24port, and it was mixtures.

42:26That's why you see so many similarities in the gods and goddesses.

42:31Well, this was a city that was entertained as a political alliance by David.

42:35And more than that, I think there's even a passage that talks about the friendship there.

42:40That's not the kind of thing that this Christianity produces in the NAR.

42:45You must rebuke those who are not in agreement with you, and you can never have that alliance

42:52or conversation.

42:53In other words, if they disagree with you, you can't even accept or acknowledge the things

42:59that they say.

43:00And for me, this is a huge problem.

43:02We are progressing in a backwards way.

43:05When I look back at the 50s and 60s, even the television shows and some of the magazines,

43:12Christianity had progressed in a way where they did have a mutual respect.

43:15They understood differences of opinion.

43:17The Christian would not have agreed with the Hindu or the Muslim, obviously, but there

43:23would have been a respect and a conversation allowed.

43:26I look at the comments that I get on the podcast today, and I think it's just not what it

43:31should

43:32be.

43:32This isn't what Christianity was meant to be.

43:34The factionalization of everything, you know, where you have these little factions, even your

43:40own personal faction.

43:40You've got this whole worldview inside your head, but now because of social media, because

43:48of the ability to become your own literal cult of personality, you know, and you can hide

43:54behind the anonymity of certain, you know, whoever you want to present, right?

43:58I'm sure there's people that probably just come into your comments, and they're just absolute

44:01trolls, and they have six different accounts, and they just, you know, stoke a fire just to

44:06be mean.

44:06They don't even care, you know?

44:08They're just whatever.

44:09I mean, anyone who's been online long enough knows that that absolutely occurs, but I think,

44:16you know, in a greater regard, like, we're not taught, like, people used to have, like,

44:22or oratory classes where you learn how to talk, you know, to people, and you learn how to

44:28debate and dialogue, and there is a higher understanding of critical thought and how to process, you know,

44:34like, pretty good, your ideas with as few words as possible, but they were, everyone knew

44:41what those words meant, you know?

44:43And you could formulate entire opinions or entire groundwork for a conversation with certain

44:51words, and we've become so debased, really, you know, from, I mean, there's a whole social

44:56engineering aspect to all this stuff that has nothing to do with Christianity, but, like,

45:00just as a whole, and then you've got a group of people, you know, who, you know, are weaponizing

45:06scripture, but they've got this lack of decorum, and in a very black and white view of something

45:15that is a full-spectrum color, and it doesn't bode well, you know?

45:20It doesn't translate well, and it doesn't bode well, and it's not great for holding a dialogue

45:26or a conversation.

45:28Yeah, and it's the, you know, the weaponization, it's not even a good word for it.

45:32It's like they want to beat you over the head with a Bible, but somebody comes along with

45:35a bazooka of truth, and truth always wins, you know?

45:41I look at all of this a bit differently than a lot of people.

45:44In the history, you can go back and you can see how it's all been politicized, and the way

45:49that people have conversations when they're in this type of movement, when they engage with

45:55somebody who's not in the movement, they engage in the same way that you would at a political

46:00rally, talking about the people that you can't even see, the people who aren't in the rally.

46:05You're saying all these things about them.

46:07Well, that's because the structure of the sermons actually eerily mimic that of a political

46:13rally.

46:14The people, I don't know if you saw it, in the Pentecostal circles that I went to, you

46:19would often hear sermons preached at people, the things people are doing who weren't in the

46:24church, and the easiest example is I'm sitting in a church filled with nothing but women wearing

46:30long dresses, and the minister rants for 30 minutes about how these women even show up

46:36into churches wearing pants, and nobody's in there with pants if they're female, right?

46:41Well, that's how it was.

46:41It's like a political rally.

46:43You're preaching at something, and you're preaching at the enemy.

46:46That's really what it is.

46:47To the extent there are certain factions within Pentecostalism that when they mention the

46:54word gospel, what they're actually talking about is preaching at something that is the

46:58devil, that is their version of the gospel, and it's really, it's the equivalent to the

47:05modern NAR spiritual warfare.

47:07As long as you can denounce something, you have power over it.

47:10You're binding it.

47:12They use that word.

47:13Yeah.

47:13You're binding it.

47:15That's, you know, I get some of the positives from that, but think of the negatives.

47:20Now you've got this group of people that are literally thinking that that's tied to Christianity,

47:25and therefore, when I go out into the public, I'm going to act just like the preacher did

47:29behind the pulpit.

47:30Yeah, that's a big problem.

47:31That's a big, or it should be.

47:35It should be a big problem.

47:38I think you're right on as far as political, the way we approach things in a political

47:45format, and I'm sure you're very well aware of the infiltration of the America first and

47:52all that stuff into, you know, what used to be a social gospel for everybody, especially

47:58the poorest of the poor, and big business came in and certain aspects of the government

48:04and this and that, and that's a whole other thing.

48:06There's a really good book out there.

48:08I don't agree with everything in it, but it was written by a guy named Dr. Michael, or

48:11J. Michael Bennett, and he actually was the host of the Future Quake program way back

48:16in the day, and it was kind of like a fringe conspiracy, like Christian conspiracy thing,

48:21and the more people he talked to and the more he interacted with just regular everyday

48:26people, I was like, man, maybe this isn't, like, maybe Muslims aren't a problem, you

48:30know, like, and it was, his change of heart was actually really phenomenal, and so he

48:36wrote a book called Two Masters, Two Gospels, Eleven of the Pharisees versus the Eleven of

48:40Heaven, or the Eleven of the, Eleven of Heaven versus the Eleven of the Pharisees and talk

48:45radio, conservative talk radio, and, but he goes through the history of the conservative

48:51Christian movement and how it infiltrated, or how it infiltrated the church, but where it

48:56came from, and you know a lot of that, but it's not only troubling, it's as much troubling

49:04as it is fascinating, especially when you look at where we are today, when you look at some

49:08of the sermons being preached behind a pulpit, when you look at the influence of a political

49:14system, um, and political ideologies that really have no place in the church, um, especially

49:22as far as the gospel, the gospel goes, right, the story of Jesus and salvation, um, and what

49:27it avails to us, so I recommend people, people get that if they can, um, and have a look at

49:34it, it's, it's, I mean, it's, it's just replete with footnotes, with, it, he gives all the,

49:40you know, his references, you know, uh, uh, sites, site sortation, uh, citations and all

49:46that stuff, so I, um, I rarely recommend books, you know, um, but outside of, you know, the

49:52Bible, but I, I do recommend those.

49:54Yeah, it's like the, the God that has been promoted by the charismatic movement is so weak

49:59that if somebody's not in the same mindset that they are, well, they're lost, God, God

50:05can't save them, God's not, God's not going to work with this person, they took their step

50:09on the journey in the wrong direction, well, they're going the wrong direction, God's not

50:13going to work with them.

50:14I remember the very first church I was in after leaving the cult, I sat down with the ministers

50:19and I said, hypothetically speaking, on a remote island somewhere, there was a person

50:25who had never, ever seen a Bible, worshiped God, but worshiped what they believed to be

50:32the true God, loved their neighbors as their self, put God above everything else, lived in

50:38every single way, the, you know, the way that God would want them to live, but had never heard

50:43the name Jesus.

50:45Is that person going to heaven or going to hell?

50:48And you can imagine the looks on their faces.

50:51They wanted to say, they wanted to say something besides what they said, but it ended up with

50:58the very evangelical, well, they're going to hell, you know.

51:02In my opinion, it just weakens God, because that would mean that for decades, before Christianity

51:10had spread around the globe, all of those people were lost, and I've actually heard a sermon

51:14where somebody actually said that.

51:16And it really defies things like the scripture, God so loved the whole world, you know.

51:22If you understand that God is more powerful than the box that they have put him in, then

51:27you understand that you don't want the box that they have put him in.

51:31And that's, for me, why I have this podcast.

51:34So, thank you for joining me.

51:37Appreciate it.

51:38Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the

51:41web, you can find us at william-branham.org.

51:44For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion

51:48from Christian Identity to the NAR.

51:50Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

How Charismatic Leaders Turn The Unknown Into Fear | Podcast Episode 635

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