From Intercessory Prayer To NAR Control | Podcast Episode 637 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John, Vincent, and Judith continue a deeply personal conversation about how sincere Christians were drawn into intercessory prayer networks, apostolic culture, and the wider New Apostolic Reformation. They trace the gradual progression from spiritual curiosity and a desire for revival into systems marked by manipulation, celebrity leadership, spiritual warfare rituals, and claims of prophetic authority.  The discussion also examines how prayer movements, revival culture, and post-denominational structures created fertile ground for deception, disillusionment, and spiritual abuse. Along the way, they reflect on church history, reason and faith, recovery after religious harm, and why many believers are now rethinking the authority structures that shaped modern charismatic movements.  00:00 Introduction 01:16 Why intelligent people get pulled into deception 07:04 Peter Wagner, intercessory prayer, and “ends justify the means” 09:21 Brian Simmons, church growth, prophecy, and spiritual abuse 13:26 Armor bearers, impartation, Bob Jones, and Bill Johnson 16:35 Lies for a holy end 23:36 Why “just read your Bible” is not simple after indoctrination 25:37 Prayer networks, Cindy Jacobs, Chuck Pierce, and national decrees 28:24 Promo break 29:25 Gnosticism, mystery language, and moving beyond the gospel 35:35 Gradual escape from the prayer movement 37:34 Divorcing Baal and apostolic decrees over America 40:00 Illness, collapse, and recovering reason 43:58 Freedom to explore after high-control religion 47:44 Church attendance, authority, and fear 50:51 Why structure can protect people after spiritual chaos 53:10 Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and non-denominational authority 57:43 Finding sanity after the N.A.R. 59:18 Closing ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Vincent and Judith Desjardins.

00:00:47Vincent, Judith, it's good to have you back and to go deeper with your story.

00:00:51I remember last time I was taking for quite a wild ride, and I'm sure the listeners were too,

00:00:56but you had more that you wanted to cover, and there just simply wasn't enough time in one hour.

00:01:02So we're getting into the prayer movement, and this is a subject that I'm just so curious to find out

00:01:08how what I was in developed into so many other things, and you're here to share that story.

00:01:13So thank you for joining us again.

00:01:15Thank you very much, and I'll start with a little story about myself.

00:01:19I know the viewers don't realize this, but we're recording this on April Fool's Day,

00:01:24and it's been quite a journey of feeling foolish in some of the deceptions that we've been involved in.

00:01:32And I just felt like it was a good time to just share a couple of little personal anecdotes.

00:01:37And lots of times people think, like, how could an intelligent person like moi get sucked into some of these

00:01:45movements

00:01:45and some of these deceptive cult-like activities?

00:01:50And really, it has to go back to just human nature, and we're a combination of faith and reason.

00:01:58Let's put it that way.

00:01:59When I was a little kid, I was only two years old.

00:02:03My mother has to tell me this story, or she did tell me because I couldn't remember it.

00:02:07But she told me about Santa Claus and how Santa Claus went around the whole world

00:02:11and gave all the children presents on Christmas Eve.

00:02:15And I just looked at her and pulled myself up and said,

00:02:18Ma, that couldn't happen.

00:02:19He couldn't do all that in one night.

00:02:22And I was two years old.

00:02:24I mean, how would I know that?

00:02:25But that was the kind of kid I was.

00:02:27I was perceptive and intelligent.

00:02:30And then at the same time, when I was a little older, like six years old,

00:02:36I had some friends at school who lured me into believing they had a magic box.

00:02:40I was really into magic, and I wanted to get things I wanted through magic.

00:02:45So I was experimenting.

00:02:46And I asked them, OK, guys, you've got some gum.

00:02:50Can you make the magic box cause gum to appear?

00:02:54And they said, oh, yeah, we can do that.

00:02:57So they turned around, and they took the gum out of their mouth and put it in the box.

00:03:01And then they turned around and handed it to me.

00:03:04And I said, oh, thanks.

00:03:06And because I never got to have gum, and my parents didn't allow me to have gum,

00:03:10I started chewing it.

00:03:12They made a fool out of me.

00:03:13But that was kind of how my life has been.

00:03:16I've been looking for some answers and some magic that will get me what I want.

00:03:21And that was sort of how I decided to live my life.

00:03:25I have a curiosity.

00:03:27And lots of times people who get caught up in cults have curiosity.

00:03:31They're intelligent, and they're curious.

00:03:33That's how they get sucked in.

00:03:36And then it brings me to another memory.

00:03:38When I was a little kid, I came home from Sunday school.

00:03:41I was around seven.

00:03:42And I said to my dad, I'm so excited.

00:03:45I heard them tell us the story of Joshua.

00:03:49And he made the sun sand sill so that they could win the battle.

00:03:55And my father just looked at me.

00:03:57He was not a believer in miracles or in Jesus.

00:04:00He believed in God.

00:04:02But he said, Judy, that's against the laws of physics.

00:04:06And I said, what's physics?

00:04:09But deep inside, I knew he was right.

00:04:12That was impossible.

00:04:13But I also knew that I believed something happened in that Bible.

00:04:17There was something there, and I wanted to find out what it is.

00:04:21And so I think that is kind of what I carried throughout my life was that desire to find God.

00:04:27And I think that it led me through all these movements that I shared before

00:04:32and to the point where I finally got into the new apostolic reformation.

00:04:37That was like the final step.

00:04:39You have just described a large part of my life, but starting at age 37, not at the age

00:04:45that you're talking about.

00:04:46I did not have the freedom to think and explore.

00:04:49My mind was not free until after I left the group.

00:04:53After I left the group, I realized I have a very analytical mind.

00:04:56And I have quite a bit of knowledge, but I wasn't allowed to apply it.

00:05:00And that's where it gets really sad and weird at the same time.

00:05:05The laws of physics, if you believe that God created the heavens and the earth,

00:05:09well, you believe that he created the rules that the heaven and the earth are governed by.

00:05:13So to believe that God bends those rules gets really interesting if you think about it.

00:05:20I've come to understand that the ancient writers wrote from their perspective,

00:05:25and their perspective would have matched the perspective of the readers of the ancient world.

00:05:30And if you believe that the Bible is inspired, you have to believe that God didn't just write

00:05:34it to us only.

00:05:35He also allowed them to write it in a way that those people could understand.

00:05:40So it gets a little bit more complex in understanding what the book is.

00:05:43And I'm still working through all of that, but needless to say, what we were taught and

00:05:48what the books are, it's a quite different scenario in both cases.

00:05:55Interestingly, your Santa Claus example actually emphasizes this.

00:05:59My grandfather used to tell the story how my aunt, whenever they were in the grocery store

00:06:04lines, during Christmas time, this lady walked up behind her and said,

00:06:08Are you ready for Santa Claus?

00:06:10And my aunt just let her have it, ripped her up and down.

00:06:14Did you know Santa Claus is fake?

00:06:16And just continued to insult this woman.

00:06:18And my grandfather would often tell this, praising my aunt for insulting the lady in

00:06:24the checkout line, which is really, really sad.

00:06:27But we were falsely taught what other people, other Christians believed.

00:06:32And part of it was this belief in Santa Claus.

00:06:34And we would say, they're so believing in the fakery that they believe this fake thing.

00:06:41All while preaching the other fake thing, which is really sad and interesting.

00:06:45We believed that Santa Claus was a myth, but we were teaching our own mythologies.

00:06:49But we were not thinking of the different perspectives.

00:06:53So when we looked at another Christian, we viewed them differently.

00:06:57Well, life is not so black or white as the cults would make it out to be.

00:07:01I had to learn that there's a lot of grays in between.

00:07:04We were very much into praying and seeing our prayers answered.

00:07:08We had been completely indoctrinated by apostles and prophets, by the teachings of Peter Wagner.

00:07:16Back at one of the other churches I've been in, in the 90s, the pastor said,

00:07:20you can teach intercessory prayer.

00:07:22Here's a stack of Peter Wagner books.

00:07:25Read them.

00:07:26Now, I've disposed of those books.

00:07:28I don't remember what was in them, but I remember one main thing about Peter Wagner.

00:07:34He said, the ends justify the means, or else why would anyone do anything?

00:07:40You do whatever you do to achieve an end.

00:07:44So whatever means you use, it doesn't matter.

00:07:48And I remember just experiencing cognitive dissonance and going home and saying to my husband,

00:07:57I don't get that.

00:07:58My parents taught me that the ends don't justify the means.

00:08:02That if you tell yourself, I'll do anything to reach my goals and I'll do anything,

00:08:09you're going to end up doing things that aren't right.

00:08:11You're going to end up doing things, yeah, that work maybe,

00:08:15but in the way you're going to lose your morality.

00:08:18You're going to lose your ethics.

00:08:20You're going to lose your way.

00:08:22So that was one of the first things that told me there was something wrong,

00:08:27but I just kept going because they used the gimmick.

00:08:32Well, you want to come out of the old wineskins.

00:08:35You're not going to get anywhere.

00:08:37You're not going to get anywhere if you don't follow this new model of the apostolic and the pathetic.

00:08:42You're not going to get anywhere.

00:08:43And since I was motivated by success and self-interest like anyone else who is not really,

00:08:50truly spiritual, that's where I went with it.

00:08:53I said, well, they tell you in business that things are not black and white,

00:09:00that you have to realize there's shades of gray.

00:09:03You can't keep every regulation that exists.

00:09:05It's impossible.

00:09:07You can't do everything by the book.

00:09:09So therefore, it's the same in church life.

00:09:12You've got to cut some corners.

00:09:13You've got to make things happen.

00:09:15And that was how we got lured into Brian Simmons Church because that was a church that was applying these

00:09:22principles.

00:09:24When Mike Smith, the worship leader, came out with his blog in February, he talked about how the church grew

00:09:31in a period of like, was it two or three years?

00:09:34From a hundred people to a hundred people to a thousand, just tremendous growth.

00:09:40And they did this by using any means necessary.

00:09:43They presented an image of a church with really kicking worship and like long sessions of prophetic music, bringing in

00:09:55who's who in the Christian zoo to do conferences, just building a conference church, a NAR church, like that would

00:10:05be an apostolic center.

00:10:06We never, never heard of such thing.

00:10:08And it was like a mile wide and an inch deep.

00:10:14People were drawn from the whole region.

00:10:16And we felt like this was revival.

00:10:19It wasn't people seeking the Lord, seeking to be discipled by him, seeking what God's will is for their lives.

00:10:28It was people seeking to grow an organization and to experience their Christianity through worship and through prophetic utterances and

00:10:40all the sorts of things that were exciting and novell to us.

00:10:46So that was the pressure that Mike Smith and the leaders were feeling behind the scenes.

00:10:53Outwardly, they were creating, Brian Simmons was creating a brand of he's the gentle, meek, humble pastor who is not

00:11:03controlling like all your old pastors that you've experienced.

00:11:06So come to my church.

00:11:08And even pastors were coming and aligning with him and getting involved because they wanted to see growth and that

00:11:17this was the vehicle for that.

00:11:19So while he was preaching that to the people and getting them in, like whenever he saw people coming in

00:11:25who look like leaders, I was one of those people.

00:11:29He would line them up in the front and prophesy over them.

00:11:32And so Brian prophesied over me.

00:11:34He said, you're an eagle.

00:11:36You were flying, but you got shot down.

00:11:39But now, you know, you've done it all.

00:11:41You've preached, you've taught, you've done this and that, but you've been shot down.

00:11:44Well, here you're going to fly.

00:11:46So a person hears that and they're like, oh, wow, this is my chance.

00:11:51And that is exactly what he did to, I don't know how many people, probably hundreds of people.

00:11:57So, of course, there was no place to really function in the church because not everybody could be the star

00:12:02and function.

00:12:03So, meanwhile, the poor staff, unbeknownst to us, that were behind the scenes were trying to keep a functioning church

00:12:11going, trying to do the normal things like disciple people, help and counsel people, and put on this performance celebrity

00:12:20church thing that they were doing, the conference circuit, and deal with all that.

00:12:27So the way that they dealt with it behind the scenes was making these staff members work 80 to 90

00:12:33hours a week, which I didn't know until now.

00:12:35And they were causing them to, you know, live under constant criticism about every little thing.

00:12:43Like, as it turns out, Brian wasn't so nice and generous and kind.

00:12:48And it was all about him.

00:12:49Like, he would come in and he would say, remember, I'm the worship leader.

00:12:54I'm the one that leads this church.

00:12:56I'm an apostle.

00:12:57And if you don't align with me, things aren't going to go well for you.

00:13:01So that was the approach he took.

00:13:04And they were, of course, by this time getting neurotic.

00:13:08They were spiritually abused behind the scenes while more and more people keep coming in thinking, this is my dream

00:13:14church.

00:13:14I'm going to function here.

00:13:16Or if you really got a job there, which I tried to do and didn't, it probably would have destroyed

00:13:21me.

00:13:22But that was the culture there.

00:13:25And I did find a home in the intercessors.

00:13:30Like, I don't know if you've ever heard of the concept of armor bearers for a pastor.

00:13:36And it wasn't the concept of, like, we had an ex-Marine that, you know, I have gotten if he

00:13:42needed it.

00:13:43It was a concept of people that prayed and lifted up the pastor while they were speaking.

00:13:49And it came against, we were into the spiritual warfare paradigm.

00:13:53We were trained in this.

00:13:54So we would be there praying against anything that could happen.

00:13:58So this was like an important niche you could find in the church because you got to sit in the

00:14:04second row behind the speakers.

00:14:06And according to our way of thinking back then, we would be thinking, well, we're going to get a lot

00:14:13imparted to us.

00:14:14It was all about impartation.

00:14:16We're around the anointing.

00:14:18And we might even get to impart to others.

00:14:21Like, I remember one time we actually prayed over Bob Jones.

00:14:25And we actually touched Bob Jones.

00:14:28We were like, wow, this is the ultimate.

00:14:33And one time Bill Johnson was speaking at our church.

00:14:37And listen, Bill Johnson, I don't understand a thing that man says to this day.

00:14:43He would like, his way of speaking was like creating some kind of cognitive dissonance.

00:14:49And he would just come out with logical, illogical fallacies and then top it off with some platitude that he

00:14:59would throw in there like this is this is resolving your cognitive dissonance.

00:15:05But it was really gaslighting and ridiculous.

00:15:07And it didn't mean anything.

00:15:08But because he had this weird like new age energy, which you could actually feel.

00:15:14And I've never been in the new age.

00:15:15But you know it when you see it.

00:15:17Now, once I got out of it, now I know it when I see it.

00:15:22But when I was in it, I thought it was real.

00:15:25I thought that was spirituality.

00:15:27Even the way Branham would look like he's in a half in a trance.

00:15:31If you see a video of somebody, they look like they're in a trance.

00:15:35There's so many things that you have said that just jog my memory to the things that I grew up

00:15:41with.

00:15:42But developing it in such weird extremes.

00:15:44So you talk about the trance.

00:15:46Branham would often tell us that he was out doing some supernatural thing and fell into what he would use

00:15:52a different word.

00:15:53But it's basically what he described was a trance.

00:15:56And you know this because there was one instance where he described his trances and he said that he would

00:16:01sit there and chant until he started to enter into what he called something else.

00:16:06But it was a trance and his way of entering into a trance was doing basic math.

00:16:12He would say one plus one equals two over and over and over again.

00:16:14And then for some reason God would put him in this trance, he would claim.

00:16:18And I'm sitting there as a child thinking, I don't know that God really is driven by mathematics, but sure,

00:16:26that's what the prophet said.

00:16:27And one thing that you said earlier in this podcast that really strikes home when you think of all of

00:16:34that, I remember reading Irenaeus' book against heresies or a series against heresies.

00:16:41There was a specific group, and I can't recall the Gnostic group that it was, but basically they had developed

00:16:48this idea of lies for the sake of a holy end.

00:16:50If you're lying and it can bring somebody into quote unquote Christianity or in their case into the Gnosis, the

00:16:57hidden mysteries, then it was okay because you had brought somebody in.

00:17:02And that developed into all kinds of weird things in the modern Pentecostal charismatic movement.

00:17:07You had people like Moses David Berg who's bringing in the people off the streets through really prostitution if you

00:17:18look at what it was, but he would send out the flirty fishers.

00:17:21And it was okay because that was for the sake of the holy end according to his group.

00:17:26Every single group that I have examined that has gone off into extremism have one variation of that or another.

00:17:33Maybe not to the extremes that I just mentioned, but they all seem to share this thing, the lies for

00:17:39the sake of a holy end.

00:17:40If you can prove that what they're saying is false, they don't care as long as they build the crowd

00:17:45with it.

00:17:46Yes, that reminds me of another pastor, the Herbalife pastor, who brought in a lot of women into Herbalife and

00:17:55they were a little bit unsavory and they were putting pictures up on Facebook and like wearing a thong or

00:18:02something showing how Herbalife was helping them lose weight.

00:18:06And we complained because we said, I don't know if a pastor should be putting up photos like that on

00:18:12his Facebook.

00:18:13So, he wrote back a private message to Vinny and he said, leave me alone.

00:18:18I'm ministering to them.

00:18:20I'm trying to help them.

00:18:21These poor people need Jesus.

00:18:23It's exactly what you're talking about.

00:18:26Darrell Bock And it's against everything that I was trained to believe.

00:18:29So, while we have a leader who is literally lying on these recordings and I'm listening to them, you had

00:18:35ministers talking about how evil it was to lie, how the Bible, all of the passages where the Bible speak

00:18:42against lying.

00:18:43And sometimes they would go so far as to mention the televangelist on TV and then point fingers at them

00:18:48lying.

00:18:49Now that I'm out of this, I'm thinking, well, these guys had to have known the things that were wrong.

00:18:54In fact, my grandfather admitted that people knew the things that were wrong.

00:18:58So, they're condemning lies while preaching lies while attracting people with lies.

00:19:03I remember you sharing that and saying, like, your grandfather said something like, well, what does it matter if we're

00:19:10helping them?

00:19:11And it's true to some extent, but in the long run, it's not true.

00:19:16I mean, it might have helped their ego or something to believe lies or to believe that things were more

00:19:26holy than they were, but it didn't benefit them in the long run.

00:19:29And it can't, but back to the trance thing, like, I remember Brian Simmons doing this too.

00:19:35Like, I had heard at a prior church he had been that he would go through long periods of fasting

00:19:41and then he would get faint.

00:19:44Well, he did that once we were in a Wagner leadership class and he really couldn't continue.

00:19:50He fell over on the floor and his wife shooed everyone out of the room.

00:19:55And she said, well, he's been fasting, but she started to say, but then she realized she was saying something

00:20:03that was true.

00:20:04So, she said, oh, no, no, he's in a trance.

00:20:07He fell over.

00:20:08The anointing was so strong.

00:20:09He fell over.

00:20:11He's on the floor.

00:20:12So, you just go home.

00:20:13He's going to spend some time with the Lord.

00:20:15The class is over.

00:20:16So, that was what it was like.

00:20:21And back to Bill Johnson, like, there was a weird energy.

00:20:25Heidi Baker is another one.

00:20:26Very weird energy that was around her.

00:20:29Like, just it, and people have come out now to say it's drama.

00:20:34But me and my husband talk about it a lot and we say, how much of it, did they really

00:20:40believe their own hype?

00:20:41Did they really believe this stuff or did they not?

00:20:44I don't know.

00:20:45I think there are some genuine people in it.

00:20:48But, so, you mentioned falling over the floor.

00:20:51Not many people realize this.

00:20:53When the healing revival started, and they talk about all these masses, mass conversions, mass healings,

00:20:58Branham mentions on recording that he could sometimes go through a prayer line and he called it discernment.

00:21:04He could discern people.

00:21:06And I can't remember the number.

00:21:08It was low, like two or three, and he said the strength of God had just gone out of me

00:21:13after I did two or three people.

00:21:15And I could only do just a few people.

00:21:18And so, you had a few plants in the crowd, basically, is what he's trying to say.

00:21:22And then, I did chronologically studying history and Branhamism, and I was looking for key points.

00:21:30There was a point in time when he called it my new ministry, and he said, I'll be able to

00:21:34go for hours and hours and hours doing this thing.

00:21:37And I got to looking at the timeline, what had been invented.

00:21:41Well, those little wireless mics where you could speak and go through the airwave, that came out about the same

00:21:48time.

00:21:48Now, I don't know if he ever used it.

00:21:50I've not proven that.

00:21:51But he did mention that his ministry was changing about that time, and so many of the others started using

00:21:57gimmicks.

00:21:58Peter Popoff used this kind of gimmick.

00:22:00So, I think that there were people who truly believed that this was all real, and I think some of

00:22:08them did get caught up in the lies for the sake of the holy end.

00:22:11So, they did believe it, but they also believed that there were lies in it, and yet they would defend

00:22:16the lies because that was how they were trained.

00:22:18But I truly believe there were others who just simply didn't believe it all.

00:22:23There's strong evidence that suggests Branham never even read his Bible.

00:22:27So, if you look at what he's doing and preaching, and he's teaching like this, right?

00:22:31He's teaching, and he even openly admits, I don't know the book real well, but I know the author.

00:22:37So, that suggests he's never even read the thing.

00:22:41And some of his statements are so far off in left field, he never – I don't think he cracked

00:22:45the cover.

00:22:45So, there are people who are faking it, who don't believe it, but to quote Jim Jones, who was condemning

00:22:52Branham and the others, he said it's the greatest gravy train they've ever been on.

00:22:57Darrell Bock Exactly.

00:22:59Darrell Bock So, weren't you saying, or someone was saying in your podcast I watched the other day that Paul

00:23:03Cain didn't know how to preach a gospel message.

00:23:05It might have been on someone else's podcast.

00:23:08He couldn't even if you – they tried to get him to do it, and he couldn't do it.

00:23:11Darrell Bock I've heard that not just about Paul Cain, but some of the others, they – whenever somebody escapes,

00:23:16and they learn what the gospel actually is, whenever they – suddenly the blinders are off, and you read the

00:23:22four gospels, and it's a very clear message.

00:23:25When they learn what that message is, they're all shocked.

00:23:28Why did we never hear this?

00:23:29And they'll go back one by one through the leaders, and you find that it's just almost not preached in

00:23:34most of the circles that we were – that developed from this.

00:23:37Darrell Bock So, I tried to find how I got here and ask myself the questions, and I haven't had

00:23:43the opportunity to do as much research as you, but the first thing I tried to do is research scriptures,

00:23:48like the scriptural trail that would get you from point A to point B.

00:23:53And, you know, so I learned about the latter rain, and I learned enough to know what kind of happened

00:23:58through the scripture.

00:23:59Darrell Bock But a lot of people, when they tell people who are in these movements to just, well, read

00:24:04your Bible for yourself, the problem is you can't read your Bible for yourself because you're indoctrinated.

00:24:10And like you said about yourself, you have to go over and over, and you have to have help from

00:24:15other people, too, to understand it at some point, because you don't even know.

00:24:20Darrell Bock I remember saying to Brian Simmons once during class, he had such a unique view of the Bible.

00:24:27I said, you know, Brian, you ought to write your own Bible, and that ended up, it happened, and it

00:24:34was unbelievable how that happened, that anyone would have the hubris to actually do some of the things these people

00:24:42did.

00:24:42And it has to be, like you've said before, they're con men, they're confidence men.

00:24:46And they inspire confidence if you say, repeat a lie over and over again, people will believe it.

00:24:53And it's just human nature.

00:24:55No matter how smart the people are, they will believe it if they see, you know, the confidence coming out.

00:25:03You know, John, I think as I look back, it started off innocently.

00:25:08A lot of the things that you learned in the beginning are, in fact, true.

00:25:13When you're a young Christian, you hear things that are true, but then it's one thing at a time, slowly,

00:25:19one deception here, one lie there, and it builds up over a period of time.

00:25:24And before you know it, you're out in left field, and, you know, you have no idea how to get

00:25:30out of it until someday, one day, you kind of come to the realization of what am I doing?

00:25:36And I think about some of the things we did, we would go on places where we would be praying

00:25:45at mosques and things like that, you know, calling down Satan over this and over that.

00:25:52And, you know, it just got a little bit ridiculous.

00:25:55And you don't realize that at the time, we had gotten hooked up in our state with the leader of

00:26:02the Reparation Prayer Network under Cindy Jacobs.

00:26:06And I think it's Generals International now.

00:26:10Yeah.

00:26:10And we represented our state with the other states.

00:26:17Two of us came from this state in Washington, and we were praying at places like the White House.

00:26:24We were in New York praying at the U.N.

00:26:26And that in itself is okay, but the form it took, the dominion, the overly, like, commanding God to do

00:26:38this and telling God he has to do that and, you know,

00:26:42tropesying things that probably weren't going to happen, but, you know, it was just another level of where we were

00:26:51going at that time, and it just got deeper and deeper.

00:26:54Yeah.

00:26:55And, you know, even to this day, sometimes it's hard to break away from everything because there's so much there

00:27:02that you have to slowly slip away from it, slowly slip away from it.

00:27:06It's not like one day you have this big crash, but you begin to realize, wait a minute, what was

00:27:11going on here?

00:27:12You know, some of the meetings with Chuck Pierce, the scarves were flying in the air, and the shofars were

00:27:18going off all over the place.

00:27:20You know, you don't realize at the time, but then, you know, you step away from it and say, what

00:27:26is this really accomplishing in the kingdom?

00:27:28Everything he said didn't make sense, the same as Bill Johnson.

00:27:32I mean, nothing made sense.

00:27:33It was just vague and strange, and he looked like he was being quote-unquote spiritual, and we just swallowed

00:27:42it hook, line, and sinker.

00:27:44I mean, I can't explain why it's embarrassing, like I said, and I just thank God for his grace in

00:27:52getting us out of it, but you can definitely look at it theologically, and you can see, okay, there's a

00:27:59type of open theism.

00:28:01God isn't sovereign.

00:28:02We can change his mind, and we've got the government of God in place now, apostles and prophets, and if

00:28:10they give us something to decree and declare, we can go into a region and speak the word of the

00:28:16Lord, and it will happen.

00:28:18So we began to really get puffed up in that, thinking we were accomplishing anything.

00:28:23Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

00:28:32reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

00:28:37You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

00:28:44On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

00:28:52John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

00:28:58You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

00:29:05If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

00:29:11top.

00:29:11And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

00:29:17watching.

00:29:18On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:29:23There comes a point whenever you start going down all these rabbit trails of influence, and you come to realize

00:29:29that there are actually too many to count.

00:29:32But the big ones matter, and the big ones are a detriment to Christianity.

00:29:36They're not positive.

00:29:38You mentioned the type of theology that some of the leaders like Bill Johnson is teaching.

00:29:43What they're doing, this vagueness.

00:29:46People ask me often when I get messages, why is it so hard to understand what they're saying?

00:29:51It's purposefully so because it bears the essence of Gnosticism.

00:29:58It's a divine mystery.

00:29:59And if you can present it to the people in such a way that it's such a mystery you yourself

00:30:05can't explain, but they can come to the knowledge themselves, they can come to the Gnosis, then they feel enlightened.

00:30:12So it's got forms of enlightenment, forms of Gnosticism.

00:30:16Latter Rain was – not many people know this, but you can trace many of the theologies back to Jane

00:30:22Leade, who was bringing in spiritualism and Christianity, mixing those two.

00:30:27Basically, she had another form of Gnosticism at her core.

00:30:32And the problem is, this movement was trained to believe that this was a good thing, not a bad thing.

00:30:37If we can preach in mysteries, then suddenly they can come to understand and they can come to the greater

00:30:42knowledge.

00:30:44And it got to the point, whenever Branham got to his climax of fame, he started saying we had –

00:30:51and I'm paraphrasing greatly, but he says things to the effect of,

00:30:54we had the gospel, but every church has that.

00:30:57We need to move beyond it.

00:30:58The problem is, they actually did.

00:31:00They moved beyond it.

00:31:02So I was raised in this thing.

00:31:04I never heard the gospel because they had already moved past it.

00:31:07And they thought that what they had was better.

00:31:09And for a Christian church to believe that they have something better than the gospel, I ask the question, is

00:31:14it really even a Christian church?

00:31:16I don't think so.

00:31:17It's Gnosticism.

00:31:18I mean, Irenaeus wrote a lot about it, and we've experienced it.

00:31:25There's nothing new under the sun.

00:31:26These things are just rehashed.

00:31:28I remember when I first came out of it, I went through the Bible route, and I also went through

00:31:33examining – you know, not the level you have, but, you know,

00:31:37Wikipedia knowledge about heresies and reading a few books they had time to read.

00:31:42And there's nothing new under the sun.

00:31:44A lot of it is like the Montanans, that they had prophetic gifts, and they believed that they were the

00:31:51ones speaking for God.

00:31:53That's kind of where I fell into, that kind of a group.

00:31:57And many of these groups weren't living – like, we look at the church right now and all the sexual

00:32:03sin that's being exposed.

00:32:04But this is much deeper.

00:32:07There's a much deeper cleaning house, and maybe this is actual revival and reform, I hope so, that if we

00:32:14can bring truth and light and expose some of the things that have been in the darkness.

00:32:19But there's a lot of people that live sexually pure lives, and maybe they're not even greedy, but they're just

00:32:27as deceived as any of the other ones who are falling into gross sin, you know.

00:32:32So, that's part of what's going on, you know.

00:32:36And the Montanans were that kind of group.

00:32:39They were – it's like the Wheaton chairs.

00:32:43They grow together.

00:32:43And sometimes it might take centuries before you really discover a heresy has been going down.

00:32:50I mean, this latter rain movement isn't that long.

00:32:55It's so far off that it's really coming and being exposed in a relatively –

00:33:02a quick period of time, I would say.

00:33:04Darrell Bock What I've come to understand is that, like I said earlier, there are a lot of people who

00:33:09came into the movement who really, truly believe what they were saying.

00:33:13They were mixed with crowds of people.

00:33:15Some of the leadership didn't believe what they were saying.

00:33:18There's strong evidence that they did not.

00:33:20The people who did believe it were caught so off guard.

00:33:24I think that's really what happened here.

00:33:26They were suddenly faced with a very charismatic person who is – it's really a grift.

00:33:33It's a religious grift.

00:33:34But they're using confidence to say, the scriptures mean this.

00:33:38Can't you see it?

00:33:39Can't you see it?

00:33:40Well, trained –

00:33:41Darrell Bock Yeah, can't you see it if you don't?

00:33:42Darrell Bock Yeah, trained ministers are going, well, my gosh, they found something I missed.

00:33:46Well, they dove in head first, believing that what the person said was true.

00:33:50And so there are different types of minds that think differently.

00:33:55When I enter my analytical state of being, I try to prove the true by examining and putting myself into

00:34:05the belief set of the faults.

00:34:06Darrell Bock So if I enter my brain into the false way of thinking and I can prove it to

00:34:11be without a question, untrue, then I know that path is false, go back to what I believed.

00:34:18And that's kind of the path I take with my research.

00:34:20There are minds like that that dove in head first, trying to prove it, believing it, but I think with

00:34:27just a hint of skepticism, because that's how your brain is wired if you're like me.

00:34:32Darrell Bock So these men did that.

00:34:34The problem is many of them were leaders of their churches or evangelists, so they're spreading the faults, and they're

00:34:40still not fully there yet.

00:34:41They're entertaining the false idea.

00:34:43Darrell Bock Yeah.

00:34:44Darrell Bock And then around 1940 – what was it, 1948, Assemblies of God cut it off and said, no,

00:34:51this is false, this is destructive.

00:34:53They put out – they published their meeting agenda and said, we're not going to allow this in the Assemblies

00:35:00churches.

00:35:00Well, it split in half because so many people had already been influenced.

00:35:04So at that point in time, you had, like I said, the grifters, you had those who were analytical who

00:35:09dove in head first mistakenly.

00:35:11Some of them escaped, but the problem is there were those, I think, there's another third category.

00:35:18There were people who got in so deep that they would lose face if they turned around and walked away.

00:35:24Darrell Bock Yes.

00:35:25Darrell Bock So now they are perpetuating the lie, knowing it's a lie.

00:35:28And that's, to me, those categories are really the structure of what developed into the New Apostolic Reformation.

00:35:34Darrell Bock Yes, it's true.

00:35:36So definitely, it was a gradual entering into it, and there was also a gradual escape from it.

00:35:45But once you've seen it, you can't unsee it, and you know it's false.

00:35:49Darrell Bock Yes, and I thank God for that.

00:35:51Darrell Bock But the people who are still in it, I'm not sure, because it's a populist movement, and the

00:35:59level of involvement is very deep.

00:36:03And people got so involved with the prayer movement.

00:36:05Like, it started out in general terms, like, well, we're praying for our state, we're praying for our city, we're

00:36:12praying for our nation.

00:36:14Darrell Bock And then, over the years, it morphed into something entirely different.

00:36:18Darrell Bock When we didn't see revival, like, for instance, all those call rallies and these different prayer movements were

00:36:26appealing to the covenants that we had made as a nation with God.

00:36:30Darrell Bock Now, God made a covenant with Israel, but the United States, they've claimed, made covenants with God through

00:36:37the historical papers that, you know, that governments set up and all that.

00:36:43Darrell Bock So we were supposed to go and re-dig the wells of revival, restore those covenants, declare that

00:36:51they were true, and that our state or our nation was turning back to God.

00:36:57Darrell Bock So a lot of this work was done in the early 2000s, and then by 2007, they thought

00:37:04they had kind of gotten to that point where every state had done that in these prayer movements.

00:37:09Darrell Bock But in 2008, they realized they hadn't done it, because, first of all, in their opinion, Obama was

00:37:16elected, and second of all, we had the stock market issues, and some other things that happened, that Lakeland revival

00:37:23was a bust.

00:37:25Darrell Bock So all the things they were praying for didn't come to pass, so they needed a new strategy,

00:37:30and that's what my husband was talking about.

00:37:32Darrell Bock When we couldn't see the change come through dedicating our nation back to God, then we decided that

00:37:40we had idolatry in our nation, and that, again, the prayer movement would be the shortcut, the magic trick to

00:37:46get back to God.

00:37:47Darrell Bock So that is when someone went into a trance and had a revelation that we needed to go

00:37:53into the throne room, get that apostolic decree from God that you are divorced from Baal, Baal, as you should

00:38:02say, but Baal is what they said.

00:38:05Darrell Bock And we were divorcing Baal, and we were going to remarry God.

00:38:09Darrell Bock We tried to marry God without divorcing Baal first.

00:38:13Darrell Bock So we're going to go around, that's where we went around the country with a writ of divorcement

00:38:17some guy had written up, you can find it online, Heartland Apostolic Network has it, John Hamill has it, and

00:38:26we would pray that dividing up all the intercessors across America into sections of cities, regions, whatever, and pray these

00:38:36things.

00:38:37Darrell Bock And at this point, when was it, 2011, we went to Washington, D.C., and we brought all

00:38:46the work we had done, and we said, okay, God, we're here at the Capitol, we've done all this work,

00:38:50now America's safe.

00:38:52Darrell Bock And they believed it was a sign that, like, six weeks after that, an earthquake hit D.C.,

00:38:58and the Washington Monument cracked.

00:39:02Darrell Bock And then, of course, in hindsight, they had a prophecy, well, Richard Ryden said that we were going

00:39:07to crack D.C. like a nutcracker.

00:39:10Darrell Bock Okay, this is that, the Washington Monument cracked, and some gargoyles fell, I don't know, this is silly,

00:39:17fell off the National Cathedral.

00:39:20Darrell Bock So this means our prayers were answered.

00:39:22Darrell Bock I don't know why that would be, but that's what they were saying.

00:39:26Darrell Bock So that was 2011, when we declared that that had happened.

00:39:30Darrell Bock So I was starting to get shaky at this time about the movement, very shaky.

00:39:36Darrell Bock My husband was more or less busy with his business, raising the money so we could pay to

00:39:41play and go on all these trips.

00:39:42Darrell Bock He wasn't so involved as I was.

00:39:44Darrell Bock That's why he doesn't share as much.

00:39:46Darrell Bock But around this time, I began to have doubts.

00:39:53Darrell Bock But they really came to a head when I got an illness and I almost died.

00:40:00Darrell Bock In December 21st, 2012, which was supposed to be the last day of the world on the Mayan

00:40:07calendar,

00:40:08I went into the hospital with Guillain-Barre syndrome, and I was nearly paralyzed.

00:40:14Darrell Bock My heart rate was going crazy.

00:40:18Darrell Bock My blood pressure was off the charts.

00:40:24Guillain-Barre, if people don't know, the body fights itself.

00:40:28Darrell Bock Your body attacks its own nerve cells and destroys the myelin sheath of the nerves.

00:40:33Darrell Bock And you can become paralyzed.

00:40:35Darrell Bock A lot of people go on a respirator.

00:40:39Darrell Bock I didn't, but I was very, very sick.

00:40:41Darrell Bock And it's like, this had happened, and I'm not saying this is God.

00:40:47Darrell Bock I'm not saying it's the devil.

00:40:49Darrell Bock But right before I got sick, I had decided to do some prayer work.

00:40:54Darrell Bock I had gone down to the Connecticut River, and I was opening up a portal to God

00:41:00and closing a portal to Satan and divorcing Baal and doing these weird prayers.

00:41:05Darrell Bock And to my understanding at the time, I'm like, if I'm supposed to be doing

00:41:10this praying, and I'm supposed to be praying for my city for revival, and here I am, I went

00:41:17and did it, and now I'm half dead in the hospital.

00:41:20Darrell Bock I began to rethink what I had done and what I was about.

00:41:24Darrell Bock And so for the next, it took me several years to recover, but it was gradual.

00:41:31Darrell Bock But the first six months, I was flat on my back most of the day with intense

00:41:36pain, and I had to learn to walk again.

00:41:38Darrell Bock I couldn't lift my arms.

00:41:40Darrell Bock I couldn't lift my legs.

00:41:42Darrell Bock I was only 58 years old, but I aged instantly when that happened, and I had

00:41:48always been a really strong person.

00:41:50Darrell Bock I lost my skills playing the flute.

00:41:53Darrell Bock I lost my ability to exercise.

00:41:57Darrell Bock I have, like, a hidden disability now, but when this happened, I had time to

00:42:03think, and my reason came back, and my common sense came back, and I began to question everything.

00:42:10Darrell Bock I began to go on the internet and do searches.

00:42:12Darrell Bock I began to search different religions.

00:42:14Darrell Bock I began to see where did we come from, like you did.

00:42:17Darrell Bock It's like, what has happened to me?

00:42:21Darrell Bock And I just thank God for that, because I totally changed.

00:42:24Darrell Bock I had never used my mind.

00:42:27Darrell Bock I suddenly began to use reason again, and I had just given up reason, even

00:42:32as a young person, because my family were all intellectuals, and I thought, that isn't

00:42:37helping them, because they're not believing in Christ, so therefore, I'm going to avoid

00:42:42any intellectual stuff, because it will confuse me and might lead me astray.

00:42:50Darrell Bock So I didn't use my mind for many years, and

00:42:53I dumbed down and just went down to the level of the least common denominator with the groups

00:42:58I wanted to be part of, and I just pretended I didn't have questions, but then I just began

00:43:04to question everything, and my search for finding the truth led me in all kinds of directions

00:43:12that I would have never thought I would ever go.

00:43:15Darrell Bock I just sort of, the other day you were doing a podcast, I forgot the gentleman's

00:43:20name, he's an Orthodox gentleman, and he was just, you were talking back and forth, I was

00:43:26in the chat, and they were talking about, like, you've got to try out different things,

00:43:33you know, if you've come to the end of yourself and you've been in bad religion, don't just dismiss

00:43:38all religion.

00:43:39If you have to for a while, fine.

00:43:40I did, I didn't go to church for three years once, I don't remember at what stage, but

00:43:47you've got to use the dignity you have as a human being to decide what you choose to

00:43:54do and have an open mind, investigate things.

00:43:58Darrell Bock Yeah, I always encourage people to find

00:44:00their own journey.

00:44:01The problem is, we were raised in a religion where they had to tell you the journey and

00:44:05you had to stick to it.

00:44:07If you didn't stick to it, it was sudden and instant death, but that's not really how

00:44:11life works.

00:44:12And there are people like me who, if you want to prove the true journey, you also have to

00:44:17test the false journey.

00:44:19So for somebody like me, that was very, very damaging to my worldview and myself.

00:44:27I was not able to progress and mature in the way that I normally would have.

00:44:32I came out kind of okay, hopefully okay, but I know people who, because of that, they never

00:44:41really did finish developing, but they weren't allowed the freedom to develop.

00:44:46And that's just not how, as a human, you need to be able to explore and look at most kids

00:44:52through their teenage years.

00:44:53They'll go do things that they know are wrong and they'll learn from that experience and

00:44:57then never do it again.

00:44:58And you have to give some kind of a freedom to learn from your mistakes, but in this type

00:45:03of movement, there is no freedom.

00:45:04When I was a child, I was allowed to explore.

00:45:07My father had a bookshelf full of different religions and philosophies, and I was allowed

00:45:13to.

00:45:14He told us, he said, you can believe whatever you want.

00:45:17Like, he didn't allow my mother to pray with us and indoctrinate us.

00:45:20He said, let them decide for themselves what they want to believe.

00:45:25And that was kind of what happened.

00:45:27But we all ended up, at some level, believing in Jesus.

00:45:31But I was allowed to explore.

00:45:34There was, you know, Zen Buddhism and there was whatever the Indian sex stuff.

00:45:39I was just a little kid and I was reading.

00:45:42I was allowed to read anything, you know.

00:45:44And I don't think it was that bad of an idea.

00:45:47So I allowed my children to explore.

00:45:51And some people would say, you can't read, what was it, the Chronicles of Narnia.

00:45:57It's like, what kind of world do you live in where you can't read the Chronicles of Narnia?

00:46:02So my kids, they turned out Christian.

00:46:05My son's a pastor.

00:46:07And I gave them that freedom.

00:46:10And that is really important to give yourself freedom.

00:46:13If you're an adult, you know, a lot of people will probably ask you, like, well, what church should I

00:46:18go to?

00:46:18Or what should I do?

00:46:19And it's like, nobody can tell you.

00:46:21You have to find for yourself, you know.

00:46:24That's kind of how it worked for me.

00:46:26I think one of the things, too, that's sad is that we were fortunate enough to have our children follow

00:46:32the Lord.

00:46:33But there are a lot of people whose children fell away, they gave up on God, and just people in

00:46:42general who came out of it.

00:46:44And they're just not close to God anymore, and they don't know where to turn, they don't know what to

00:46:50do.

00:46:51And their kids are lost.

00:46:53And, you know, that, to me, is really sad.

00:46:57And, you know, I don't like to see that.

00:46:59No, it really hinders the development.

00:47:03Whenever I see people comment in the comment feeds against one of the speakers, I get a little upset.

00:47:08I try not to sway the comment feeds too much.

00:47:12But people will attack other people.

00:47:15I had one guest that said they read the Harry Potter books.

00:47:17And this just lit a fire.

00:47:19Oh, my gosh, you read the Harry Potter book.

00:47:20Do you not know that's witchcraft?

00:47:23And the first thought that went in my head is, well, yeah, that's kind of the subject matter of that

00:47:28book.

00:47:28And it's a fantasy world.

00:47:29Well, I, too, like to read about fantasy.

00:47:33The problem is they have mixed fantasy with reality and then told you that somebody else's fantasy is evil.

00:47:40You can't participate in that fantasy.

00:47:42Believe our fantasy.

00:47:43Yeah, and I don't want to tell anyone what to believe, but what happened to me is I totally stopped

00:47:51going to church.

00:47:52And I was on a Facebook discussion comment thread one day.

00:47:59People were commenting, Christians, about an article that had come out at the time.

00:48:05I think it was 2013, 2014.

00:48:07It was an article where the writer was saying, I don't need to go to church anymore.

00:48:13He said, if I gather with two or three in Jesus' name, I'm in church.

00:48:19Church is not a building.

00:48:20I'm going to meet with God in the woods with my friends.

00:48:23Tell me I'm wrong, basically.

00:48:25And, you know, the comment thread was full of people saying stuff like, well, you cannot forsake the assembling of

00:48:33yourselves together.

00:48:35And people were saying, well, they are assembling together.

00:48:37Who says how many people have to assemble, you know?

00:48:40And then other people were saying, well, you have to get permission from your pastor to miss a service.

00:48:47And then I'm like, what?

00:48:51Permission from your pastor to do that?

00:48:54I mean, what universe are you living in?

00:48:57And I can remember a pastor like that.

00:49:00He went and knocked on people's doors when they didn't show up, you know?

00:49:04And that's not cool.

00:49:06But, you know, they were generally speaking, all of the opinion that once you belong to a church, you can

00:49:12never leave.

00:49:13If you do, you're in danger.

00:49:15Something bad will happen to you.

00:49:18And that's just not true.

00:49:21Like, bad things happened to me when I was following all what the apostles said.

00:49:25I was praying down by the river, and I got really, really sick.

00:49:29Now, like I said, I don't believe that those events are connected.

00:49:33But because of the warped condition of my mind, I connected that.

00:49:37And I said, this is not where I want to go.

00:49:40So, you know, they were talking in the comment thread about, well, we have to believe in the apostles.

00:49:46And I said, listen, people.

00:49:48I said, you people, you talk about Catholics.

00:49:52You people are just like Catholics.

00:49:56You have a hierarchy, and you think Peter Wagner is the pope.

00:50:00You tell me how bad Catholics are compared to this.

00:50:04And that had me start to explore, well, is there anything good in the Catholic Church?

00:50:09And you can see there's good in all churches when you explore it and have an open mind.

00:50:14And one good thing about the Catholic Church is they believe in faith and reason.

00:50:19And there's good things about other denominations as well.

00:50:24But that's where I began to have my mind opened up to, like, wait a minute.

00:50:30Who are these 30-year-old people telling me I have to submit to their authority?

00:50:33Who made them the authority over my city or my region?

00:50:38There's no reason why they should be the authority.

00:50:42They haven't got an education in it.

00:50:44They haven't had experience in being an authority, and they don't have a structure that they're

00:50:51operating within.

00:50:52So in my mind, I think the church went wrong when we came out of the denominations.

00:50:59The denominations were that safety net that we needed to stay in the right place.

00:51:05And I take full responsibility for coming out of them at a young age, and so does my husband.

00:51:11I hope you do.

00:51:12But I've heard you talk about that a lot, and it's really true.

00:51:18Whatever opinion you have of whatever denomination, there are certain things about it that are

00:51:24helping keep people safe and grounded in biblical values.

00:51:30And now I realize that a relationship with Christ isn't this experience of power or prestige.

00:51:41It's humility, true humility, not to gain an audience, but to serve and love where you're

00:51:48planted, to love the people around you, to care for those who need your help, to be part

00:51:54of your community, not traveling the world looking for answers, but to be with God in the people

00:52:01that are right next to you.

00:52:03That's really the answer.

00:52:05And that's changed my life to come to that point.

00:52:11So the end of my life is going to be normal.

00:52:14I believe I'm not going to get misled again like this.

00:52:17And thank God for the internet and this fellowship that we all have with one another like this

00:52:23that we're having now.

00:52:24It's just awesome, and it gives us the ability.

00:52:28Really, we the people are rising up, but that's pretty much all that I have since then.

00:52:34Yes, you do.

00:52:34And I think it's important, like the podcast that we watch now, that there's people that

00:52:40are coming out and telling their story, people that are opening things up, things that nobody

00:52:46ever wanted to talk about.

00:52:47Yeah.

00:52:47But it's coming to light, and there's your podcast, and there's a lot of other ones that

00:52:53are just really shedding a lot of light on things that were hidden and nobody wanted to

00:52:59talk about.

00:53:00It was, you know, it's really encouraging to know that you're not the only one.

00:53:06Yes.

00:53:06There's a whole lot of people that were in that same mess.

00:53:09You mentioned the Catholic Church, and you mentioned my guest who was Orthodox.

00:53:14And you can't imagine the mail that I got when I had an Orthodox person on my podcast.

00:53:20And before that, I had a Catholic.

00:53:22My cousin is Catholic.

00:53:23He was on the podcast.

00:53:25And if you know church history, the church that we have today would not exist without the

00:53:30Catholic Church.

00:53:31That's part of church history, right?

00:53:33But the Orthodox friend made a comment that people I don't think didn't understand.

00:53:40I was watching how they responded.

00:53:42But I was asking him, we were talking about John Wember, and I was asking him, where do

00:53:46you think everything went wrong?

00:53:48And his answer was kind of funny, and it caught me off guard.

00:53:52He said, well, if you really want to dive back to the deep heart of the problem, it goes

00:53:57all the way back to the Reformation.

00:53:59And he was referring to whenever Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church.

00:54:04Now, you can imagine the outcry from that kind of comment.

00:54:09But what he said was actually, there's a part of it that is actually real.

00:54:15Whenever you have something like this, what you have is rebellion.

00:54:18You have a person who is rebelling against the overbearing power and authority of the group.

00:54:23So they break away.

00:54:25Now, what happens is they've now formed a new denomination.

00:54:29However, you also were talking about the non-denominational churches and the problems

00:54:34therein.

00:54:35Here's the issue, and it does go all the way back to Martin Luther.

00:54:38So there was a Reformation.

00:54:40He broke away.

00:54:41It was a rebellion.

00:54:42And he rebelled.

00:54:44He said, we will not submit to this authority.

00:54:46Well, what happens is I have a house, and whenever people come to my house, anybody is welcome.

00:54:53I don't care who you are.

00:54:54You can come in, come as you are.

00:54:56But I do have rules in my house.

00:54:58So if you come in and you're going to try to light a joint and smoke pot in this corner,

00:55:03no, you can't do this in my house.

00:55:05Get out.

00:55:06You can't come in and be staggering drunk.

00:55:09I'm not going to allow it.

00:55:10The problem is whenever somebody breaks off through one of these rebellions, they say,

00:55:15we're now not the other.

00:55:18So when they broke away from denominations, they said, we're not denominations.

00:55:22And they thought they had a Reformation, just like Luther.

00:55:25But when you do this, number one, you're breaching the authority.

00:55:30You're rebelling against the authority.

00:55:32So therefore, you don't like the authority's rules.

00:55:34So therefore, you don't have the rules.

00:55:37But like my house, if I don't have my rules, what happens?

00:55:40Well, if I allow it, you've got a person smoking pot, a person drinking, and you've got

00:55:44people coming in who don't like either, and we're going to start fighting with those

00:55:48guys.

00:55:49Well, that's what happens over time.

00:55:50You don't have the same rules.

00:55:51So people start fighting.

00:55:54And the heart of the problem really is you have people who get in power who shouldn't

00:56:00be.

00:56:00That's what happened in the Catholic Church.

00:56:02Martin Luther broke away from it.

00:56:05And there was an array of other problems, but it all came back to those in power.

00:56:09The same thing happens in every single group.

00:56:11So it happened in the denominations.

00:56:14You had a split.

00:56:15Then after the split, those formed denominations.

00:56:17They had a split.

00:56:18And in the end, if you trace a non-denominational route long enough, you'll find out that they

00:56:24determined we can't let everybody in the house without our rules.

00:56:28So they start to create the rules.

00:56:29And they have, in turn, they have formed a denomination.

00:56:33Right.

00:56:33And within Catholicism, there are different groups.

00:56:37There are more liberal Catholics.

00:56:38There are the traditional Latin mass Catholics.

00:56:41It's the same.

00:56:42There's no difference.

00:56:43The human nature will tend to do that.

00:56:46So in terms of, yes, I am a Catholic, but I do see and I do believe there needed to

00:56:52be

00:56:52a reformation.

00:56:54And how that works, I don't know.

00:56:55I think we'll find out as time goes on that the two need to be more the same.

00:57:01And that is probably heretical to Catholics, but I have views like that.

00:57:07And you really have to.

00:57:08I mean, look at the New Apostolic Reformation today.

00:57:10Like you said, they have formed everything that they stood against whenever they broke

00:57:15away.

00:57:16So they've really came full circle.

00:57:18Yeah, they formed it.

00:57:18It may not be exactly the same with doctrine, but the structure is very, very similar.

00:57:23Right.

00:57:23That's the point.

00:57:25And it comes down to, do you believe there needs to be a structure and do you just, how

00:57:30do you decide or how do you choose to worship God?

00:57:33And everyone's free to do that.

00:57:34But, you know, you can't knock people for wanting a structure after what we've seen happen.

00:57:41You know, so there's going to be a percentage of people that are going to be Orthodox or Catholic

00:57:48because that was their answer for their own sanity, you know, to get out of the mess they

00:57:54were in.

00:57:55But, you know, I continue to be the open-minded, curious person I was when I was a child and

00:58:01I wanted the magic box to bring me gum.

00:58:03You know, I'm still wanting that from God.

00:58:05I'm wanting the, I want to experience God, but there are rules.

00:58:12There are, there are, and you can't go off track like we did.

00:58:15And that, I would encourage anyone listening to this to find your own way and don't worry

00:58:21about it.

00:58:21Like, don't worry that you're going to die if you leave what you're in and explore other

00:58:26things.

00:58:26You can always change your mind.

00:58:28You have to, like you said, put yourself in the place that you are believing the thing

00:58:33that you weren't supposed to believe.

00:58:34That's what I did when I was a kid.

00:58:36If I was reading about Zen Buddhism, my father allowed me, well, put yourself in this.

00:58:40Do you believe this?

00:58:42And then you think it over and you say, no, I tossed that one out.

00:58:45I'm not a Zen Buddhist.

00:58:47You know, that's better to be that way and question God than to just blindly follow someone

00:58:54who may not have your best interest in mind and may not even know Jesus himself or herself.

00:59:00And that's a sad situation, but it happens, you know.

00:59:03Absolutely.

00:59:04I mean, in the end, it's all about, are you being genuine?

00:59:07Are you being disingenuine?

00:59:09And for me, I have to be a genuine person or I just simply can't live.

00:59:14So this has been crazy interesting.

00:59:16Thank you so much for doing this.

00:59:18Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story,

00:59:21you can check us out on the web.

00:59:22You can find us at william-branham.org.

00:59:25For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion

00:59:29from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

00:59:37You can also find ourselves some about our own kind of share,

00:59:39so you can see, it feels like a light dark before you have to find a truth.

01:00:03It's like akusinal, too.

From Intercessory Prayer To NAR Control | Podcast Episode 637

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