- 16 hours ago
Zach Wolchuk joined Shan, RJ, and Bobby in-studio to talk about all things NFL Draft. They debated whether Dallas should trade up for a defensive playmaker or hold steady at picks 12 and 20. They also broke down the film on high-upside prospects, Round 1 sleepers, and much more!
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00:00With it, did the broadest thing have any carryover with Sonny Styles the next day?
00:05No.
00:06I mean, I think, like, during the break, he was kind of like, I wasn't coming at you.
00:10You know, it's just...
00:13It's PTSD from the Joey Bosa stuff.
00:15Like, I guess he had Joey Bosa lower in his rankings, and so people just...
00:19He paid man in eighth.
00:20That's crazy.
00:21You know, maybe the senile thing has...
00:23It's true.
00:23It could be accurate.
00:25You wonder why he has bounced around all those teams.
00:27Oh, no!
00:27So, how did you guys do so many shows together and this come out this late?
00:32Well, I think that Brian went back and restacked his players.
00:35And so, like, I think Brandon Cisse was a player from South Carolina, the corner that he had early on
00:40in his stack.
00:41It was really high up, and then went back.
00:43He gets more information and moves some stuff around.
00:46But I just kind of thought, if we're talking about moving up to six to take a player,
00:49like, he's obviously a top-ten player for you.
00:52If you've got him at 16, and he's always taught me, don't window dress the board right,
00:56I feel like that you wouldn't be open to going up and getting a player at six.
01:00But it is also one of these drafts that is super volatile.
01:02Like, I mean, everyone's going to view these players differently.
01:05We're talking about Sonny Stiles going four to the Titans.
01:07He could also go 12 to Dallas.
01:08I mean, that's just kind of how this is.
01:09So, I think that maybe once he did his final top 100 rankings, which he did the day before,
01:14things changed a little bit about where he had him.
01:16So, what are your ultimate scenarios that you would love to see play out that would make you the happiest
01:22on Thursday?
01:24Any way to get Caleb Downs in a Cowboys uniform would be incredible.
01:28I mean, he's my top player.
01:29I think he's amazing.
01:29He checks off all the boxes of what you need.
01:31I think Christian Parker and him would be perfect together.
01:34And then after that, it's all gravy.
01:36Like, my dream scenario would be Downs and trade back and get Jacob Rodriguez from Texas Tech.
01:42I think now, boom, you've got your Mike Linebacker that's super instinctive, super smart.
01:46All of a sudden, you've elevated the football level IQ of your defense.
01:50That's my dream.
01:51Is it because of the mustache?
01:53It is.
01:53Yeah.
01:54He does look like a volunteer firefighter.
01:56What do you make?
01:57Yes, he does.
01:58What are you making of the Thienemann equal to or Thienemann better than Downs talk?
02:03Can you at least see it?
02:05Yeah.
02:05Or are you questioning those people's sanity?
02:07You can see it?
02:08I don't think he's equal to him, but I don't think the drop-off is huge.
02:11Like, I've got Thienemann as my 17th best player.
02:14I also wonder, and they've just been so quiet on Thienemann.
02:18Like, if there's a wipeout scenario at 12, let's say none of these guys do end up sliding.
02:23Delaney's not an option for you.
02:24Styles, Downs, they're all off the board, and they don't want to take a Reuben Bain.
02:28Like, is Dylan Thienemann this year's Tyler Booker, where they just go ahead and take him,
02:31and they actually have a ton of love for him, and they've kind of kept that under wraps?
02:34Because I could see Thienemann being a Cooper DeGene-like chess piece for Christian Parker.
02:39Right.
02:40I think, yeah, exactly.
02:41You know, the super good white DB.
02:43Here we go.
02:44The exciting whites come to Dallas now.
02:46Absolutely.
02:47Super athletic.
02:47I think they...
02:48Then you trade for Riley Moss.
02:49That's impossible.
02:49I think they view him more as a safety.
02:52Okay.
02:53Than, like, Downs is a nickel player.
02:55Yeah, Downs definitely.
02:56And I think they think Thienemann can play some nickel, but I think they would view Thienemann
02:59would take most of his snaps at safety.
03:01Yeah, I think his best...
03:03I mean, him playing single high at Purdue two years ago, he's a really good cover, free
03:07safety.
03:07So, in Bruce Feldman's piece where he talks to a bunch of people around the league, he
03:12talked to a DB coach who said, I have no concerns about him covering Downs.
03:17If you're playing him at nickel, yeah, I'd be worried about him covering, but this is
03:21a safety.
03:22He's going to take the fourth hardest matchup.
03:24When is the safety covering the second hardest guy to cover?
03:27If that's your defense, then that's a bad defense.
03:30What do you think of that evaluation?
03:31If he's playing nickel...
03:32I think he's a coach, he's not a talent evaluator, and it sounds like it.
03:37But he's...
03:38The coach's view, guys, is like, what are you doing right now?
03:42And stuff like that.
03:43Scouts are meant to, like, this is what you can be.
03:46And so, I know that this Dallas team thinks he can play nickel corner full-time, 100% of
03:52the time, if necessary.
03:53So, Zach, put in order, if Downs is gone, McNeil, Warren, Chiafalo's guy, Thienemann,
04:00Thienemann, Stooks, from Arizona.
04:03To me, it would be Thienemann, Stooks, McNeil, Warren.
04:06At a boy.
04:07Yeah.
04:08Get rid of those Toledo kids.
04:09We don't want any G5 guys.
04:11Yeah, and it's not like I dislike Emmanuel McNeil, Warren, and he did have, I don't
04:15know, the loyalty factor.
04:17He did decide to stay.
04:18Like, he had an option to transfer, but I hear what you're saying.
04:21I do think, and I agree with that take.
04:22Like, as we're moving into this era of the NIL, most of these good players are going to
04:26leave the G5.
04:27I mean, I just saw the entire exodus of North Texas.
04:29We're now the Oklahoma State Mean Green.
04:31You know, we all left and went to Stillwater.
04:33So, I just, McNeil, Warren, to me, I don't think is the cover guy that these other players
04:37are.
04:37And I think the Cowboys' biggest issue is you're giving up big plays.
04:40Trayton, Stooks can cover.
04:41He's a corner that is going to play safety for you.
04:44And I think that Dylan Thienemann's a better cover guy than McNeil, Warren.
04:47McNeil, Warren is a big hitter that, for his size, it's like, wow.
04:51His ability to move at 6'2 is impressive.
04:53He is more of the Nickyman-Warry type that is now everybody wants to go and get.
04:57But I think the other two are just better cover players.
04:59Your preference in order, if it's Stiles, Bain, Delane.
05:07I've got, I would go, Stiles, Delane, Bain, in that order.
05:13That's how I've got him on my stack.
05:15I really like Sonny Stiles.
05:16I think he's an ascending player that's played the position for two years.
05:20But I love the fact that you could watch him throughout this season.
05:23Week one against Texas.
05:25And then Indiana in the Big Ten Championship game, which was his best game.
05:28He gets better throughout the year.
05:29So I think there are some, in terms of playing linebacker, the ability to take on blocks, shed, playing the
05:36run, going downhill.
05:37But you saw him, it clicked for him.
05:39So I think, athletically, everything's there.
05:42Converted safety, I think the coverage ability, zone awareness is there.
05:45And two years ago, he had six sacks.
05:47I think there's a lot of untapped potential as a blitzer for Sonny Stiles.
05:51Yeah, I'm a YouTube 10-minute expert.
05:53You may have heard.
05:55You nailed J.J. McCarthy.
05:57That's all you need, man.
05:57When I was sitting there looking, if you're blessed with the eye, like I am, that's the chosen one.
06:03No, but let's actually talk about that.
06:07Ten minutes of their highlight reel packages versus what you're putting into it.
06:11I mean, how different is it, actually?
06:13I know it's different, but how much more are you getting?
06:17And I'm not seeing any, I don't think, of the bad plays in the highlight reel packages.
06:21So for someone who's like, I'm not going to go and get three games.
06:24I'm going to look at ten minutes on YouTube.
06:27Give me how close you can get.
06:30Yeah, I mean, I think some of these players think you're going to be able to get relatively close.
06:33Like, the good ones are the good ones.
06:34Like, you can tell right away.
06:35I think some of it's like the warts, the negatives, right?
06:38That's not going to show up on a highlight package.
06:40So the strengths and weaknesses, you're obviously going to be able to have a much better understanding when you're watching
06:44the All-22.
06:45So with the physical freak that Stiles is, I was hoping to see more, like, wow plays.
06:51And there's absolutely nothing wrong.
06:53If you tell me, like, he's getting the most solid fundamental tackler and know his assignments in the National Football
06:58League, you take that for ten years.
06:59But I was hoping to see some freak-type stuff.
07:02And in his highlight package, I didn't see it.
07:05Okay.
07:05Yeah, I mean, some of that also might be the way, like, Ohio State, I thought they should have used
07:09Arvel Reese a lot more as an edge rusher.
07:11Like, they did play in an NFL system, right?
07:14So, I mean, Matt Patricia, there's something to be said about that.
07:16But it's even Caleb Downs.
07:18Like, Caleb Downs, there's people that think that he can't cover because he's been used in the box a lot.
07:22But that's why you've got to go back.
07:23You watch him against Alabama.
07:25He's one-on-one versus Brock Bowers.
07:27You see him playing deep safety, and he's able to pick up a post route, flip his hips, get an
07:31interception.
07:31For Stiles, I think some of it's what are you asked to do in the system.
07:35And I think two years ago, you saw some of those splash plays, as I'm talking about, as a blitzer.
07:39I think him in coverage is something as well.
07:42I don't know that he really showed off his range as much as he's got it in his arsenal last
07:46year at Ohio State.
07:47And some of that's also the Big Ten.
07:49The quarterback play was not very good.
07:51So, you're watching some of these players not getting tested, especially down the field.
07:55But I think that that's fair.
07:57I see what Brian's saying.
07:58Some of it is a projection with Sonny Stiles.
08:01And there's some people that just want to see it right now.
08:03I want to know what I'm getting.
08:04Whereas, I think, okay, three years from now, if he's this good playing the position two years, three years from
08:09now, he could easily be a top five linebacker in the sport.
08:11You mentioned that Bain was the third of those three.
08:14If he had normal human length arms, would you still have him three?
08:19Yeah.
08:20Yeah.
08:20I don't care about the arm length.
08:22I'm not one of those, like, the measurable stuff.
08:24Like, I'm not trained in this.
08:26You're a girth guy, not a length guy.
08:26Much.
08:27I mean, hey, you know me well.
08:28So, like, it's all about the girth over the tonnage in this situation.
08:31So, it's one of those where Reuben Bain, when I first, I think he took off in the playoff.
08:37I watched him prior to the playoff.
08:39He was one of the first guys I watched on November 1st.
08:41I didn't see, like, that elite edge rusher.
08:44I thought, oh, my gosh, is this a dude that needs to kick inside and play the three-tech because
08:48of his power?
08:49That's the difference between him and Cassius Howell.
08:50He's crazy strong, and his bull rush is there.
08:54Cassius Howell is a speed rusher.
08:55He doesn't have as much in his arsenal as Reuben Bain Jr. does.
08:58But I do think there's something to the size, and when he gets into the next level and he's playing
09:03against better offensive tackles,
09:05is he going to be able to win on the edge?
09:06I think, yes, he will be, but I think, worst case, he might kick inside and be a really good
09:10three-technique.
09:11By the way, before the college football playoff and Reuben Bain's previous 16 games, he had four sacks.
09:17What did you attribute that to?
09:20I think at times the length.
09:21I do think the length shows up as a problem at times.
09:23It wasn't, like, effort.
09:25No.
09:25No, he gives effort.
09:26Yeah, he plays hard.
09:28He's a high-energy, high-motor player.
09:28I don't like, the thing I don't like about Bain, and I hate edge rushers like this, he plays with
09:33a lot of power.
09:33That's how he wins a lot of times is power.
09:35Power does, that's a concerning thing.
09:36I don't know that power always translates to the NFL.
09:39Zach Wilczuk in studio, previewing the draft.
09:42He's on the coverage along with Roberto and Broadus tomorrow here on 105.3 The Fan.
09:47I have another 10-minute scouting hot take.
09:52Yeah?
09:52And I hate this.
09:53I hate myself for it.
09:55What is it?
09:55But in going over the options at 20, I like the old man more than everyone else in terms of
10:03the same position.
10:05I like Mesidor better than, a lot of this Malachi talk now, R. Mason.
10:13I like R. Mason.
10:14Why not?
10:15I like his name.
10:16The R.
10:17I don't think, I think it's a very, it's an uppity, it's a pomp, it's not a football name.
10:21That's the name I want for my accountant, a lawyer.
10:24Welder.
10:24Oh, no, I don't want a Welder named R. Mason.
10:27No.
10:28No.
10:28That's not a get your hands dirty name.
10:30That's a silver spoon name.
10:32Mesidor for me over Malachi Mason Falk.
10:38As a pass rusher, yeah.
10:39Yeah.
10:40No, as getting to the quarterback, yeah.
10:41I mean, some people would say Lawrence.
10:43Some people do think Lawrence is a better pass rusher.
10:45But, no, I think that Mesidor, like, the thing about Mesidor for a lot of people, I think, is just,
10:50is there upside?
10:51Like, that might just be who he is.
10:53Like, I think that for a lot of people, they go, like, he's good, but that's as good as he's
10:57ever going to be, is what he is right now.
10:58Which is fine, but you want somebody with a little bit more upside.
11:01Which I don't necessarily think is true.
11:03Why are we limiting his upside compared to all the other guys in terms of projecting it?
11:08Because he's 25 years old, and when you look at, like, how he's, like, it's not like there's been this.
11:14He's been the same guy that he's been the whole time at school.
11:17That's why teams do like Josh Allen when he got to the NFL.
11:21He still had a bunch of issues, but Josh Allen had all these tools, and every year you saw him
11:24improving, and you saw him doing different things.
11:26So NFL teams look at him and go, like, projectable, like, he's shown he's got an ability to tap into
11:31more.
11:32Mesidor's always been this guy on tape at college.
11:34He's always played like that.
11:36What are you feeling or hoping at 20, Zach?
11:40I would love Malachi Lawrence at 20.
11:42He's one of my guys that I love.
11:43Now, I'm with you.
11:44I've got Akeem Mesidor slightly ahead of him.
11:47Now, I get some of the stuff with the age.
11:50To me, I guess, the Cowboys aren't even getting to the fifth-year option with some of these guys, right?
11:55So it's like, can I just draft a good player that comes in and gives me at least four years
11:58of production,
11:59and I'll worry about that fifth-year stuff and that second contract later on,
12:02especially if we're talking about this three-year window.
12:04So just where this team is now, I don't care as much about the age.
12:08Like, Romello Hyde's also going to be one of these guys that's 25.
12:10Now, we're not talking about him in the first round like we are Akeem Mesidor.
12:14I mean, I don't know that he's going to get to the third round like Bobby's got him right now.
12:19Now, that's just Romello Hyde's camp is selling.
12:22We're not getting out of the second round right now, and maybe they're trying to prop him up.
12:26But Malachi Lawrence...
12:27Agents are always on us this time of year.
12:29Yeah, 100%.
12:30You're right.
12:31Malachi Lawrence, I love.
12:33I think he's one of the best pure pass rushers in the draft, and I think as a run defender,
12:36to me, he's better than Cassius Howell.
12:38That's why I've had him over Howell in my stack.
12:40But Lawrence has a plan.
12:42Like, he's got multiple ways to beat you.
12:43And this is Daniel Jeremiah talking about Malachi being connected here.
12:48The other team that I've heard connected to him, by the way, is the Cowboys.
12:52So, that could be a little bit of a surprise there.
12:55They picked 20.
12:56That would be a little bit earlier than folks expect.
12:58But I think at least that conversation comes into play there with them.
13:01So, I wouldn't sleep on that one.
13:04Do you buy these rumors about the Dallas Cowboys being like a big-time trade-up team?
13:08Or are you more, they want to stick and pick at 12 and 20 and maybe get two guys as
13:13opposed to one big-time player in the top 10?
13:17I have not heard anything on the trade-up stuff with them.
13:20So, you know, again, everybody talks to different folks.
13:22I have not heard that yet.
13:23So, maybe that's something that I just haven't got to.
13:25But I have not heard anything.
13:27It doesn't really kind of fit the way that they've operated as of late, which has been a lot more
13:31conservative.
13:32They have not been, you know, that type of a team.
13:35So, it fits to me more with, you know, hey, where they are, get two starters or even, you know,
13:40maybe one of those picks.
13:41Like, if they like Malachi Lawrence, maybe that's a situation where, hey, we'll take a 20.
13:47Maybe we slide back a few spots and still can get him and then pick up some extra picks.
13:52But, you know, I don't, trying to find a partner for them and who that would be and who the
13:57player would be.
13:58I mean, I think there's a chance they could sit there at 12 and they could be, you know, downs
14:02could just fall right into their lap.
14:05What about other than Lawrence?
14:07Let's say Lawrence is not there.
14:08I love Chris Johnson, the corner from San Diego State.
14:12Like, we throw out sticky in coverage a lot.
14:14To me, Chris Johnson is the definition of sticky in coverage.
14:18You like him better than Hood?
14:19I do, yeah.
14:20I mean, he's my 14th player on the stack.
14:23I think I've got him way higher than a lot of other people do.
14:26I think Chris Johnson has the chance to be maybe the best corner in this class.
14:30Woo!
14:31Yeah, I love him.
14:31We need to talk about him a little bit more then.
14:33Bruce Feldman got some DB coach take opinion on Chris Johnson, San Diego State.
14:42I lean to him over Terrell as the number three corner.
14:46Johnson is a little looser, has a slightly better change of direction.
14:49But I like both.
14:50They're both good players.
14:51And then another DB coach.
14:52He's very controlled.
14:53I like his quickness.
14:55Could probably play in the slot.
14:56Has a little less top-end speed than the other top six corners.
15:00Tough.
15:01Might be the best tackler of the six.
15:02Might be the smartest of the six.
15:04Characters off the chart.
15:05He'll play for 12 seasons.
15:07Ooh, I like that part.
15:09I don't think he's the best tackler.
15:11But the rest of it sounds right.
15:12Yeah, I think Hill, or excuse me, Colton Hood.
15:14Colton Hood's the best tackler.
15:15He's a better tackler than Chris Johnson.
15:17He's super physical.
15:18And that can get him in trouble sometimes with how physical and grabby he is.
15:23But Chris Johnson.
15:24But that was Quignon Mitchell, too.
15:25Absolutely.
15:26And he's ended up being fantastic.
15:27So I get the love for Colton Hood.
15:29I've got Hood at four.
15:30I've got Chris Johnson at three.
15:31I would just take Chris Johnson over Hood.
15:34I think he's just a better, pure cover corner.
15:36But who's two, then?
15:37McCoy.
15:38Oh.
15:38Which, at this point, I don't even know.
15:41You know, that's so sad with the injury and possibly having to have a second surgery.
15:45Like, I don't know that he's ever going to be the same player.
15:48I can understand teams just taking him off the board.
15:50If it ends up being like a Trayvon Diggs situation here,
15:53I'd be so scared.
15:54I think anybody taking McCoy in the first round is insane.
15:57It sucks.
15:59He's 19 years old, and it's going to be three years before he plays football.
16:02His 2024 tape is so damn good, though.
16:04He was so good in 24.
16:06But that injury is a scary one.
16:08I still don't know what the hell a bone plug is.
16:11I've never heard that before.
16:12I've heard of other big plugs.
16:14Right.
16:14I've heard of microfracture.
16:16Yeah.
16:16Right.
16:16I've heard of that.
16:17I've heard of all these surgeries.
16:18I've never.
16:19Because the Pellicetra report is like, the ACL is fine.
16:21It's the bone plug.
16:22I don't know what that means.
16:23And he's supposed to be good to start his career they're worried about down the road?
16:27I don't think.
16:28I think he has some other surgery.
16:29There's a question about him even starting.
16:31Yeah, before he gets going.
16:33So, I mean, it probably depends on the team that brings him in.
16:35Like, is he going to have to have the surgery right away?
16:37Maybe.
16:37Maybe you just want to get it out of the way.
16:38The bone plug, I believe that was the same graft surgery that Diggs had.
16:43Oh!
16:44I don't know.
16:44Oh, no.
16:45Give us some of your other...
16:46I know you don't know.
16:47I'm telling you.
16:47I have no idea what a bone plug is.
16:49Give us some of your other unique takes, Zach, where you're like,
16:54all right, I know I have this player a little bit differently than others.
16:58Jordan Tyson is not a top five wide receiver for me.
17:00Oh!
17:01That's probably my biggest one.
17:02I love it.
17:03And it's really just...
17:04I don't.
17:05It's going to suck when they pick him at 12.
17:06I don't think he's going to get to 12.
17:07I really don't.
17:08I think that's more unlikely than any of these defensive guys.
17:11I think there is a lot of love for Jordan Tyson, and I understand it.
17:13Like, Jordan, I say this, he's probably going to turn out to be Justin Jefferson.
17:17It's the injuries.
17:17That's why I'm scared of him.
17:19I don't think you're a guy that was unavailable to play a lot in college,
17:24and you had three separate injuries, the hammy, the collarbone, an ACL, MCL.
17:29I think that's going to carry into the NFL.
17:30So you love this giant supposed love of him.
17:33Oh, yeah, take him.
17:33And he said he'd take him.
17:35He could end up being great.
17:36It's just, to me, some of the first round is limiting risk,
17:38and I don't want to take a player that might only play 10 to 12 games a year for me.
17:42And I like Denzel Boston from Washington.
17:44There's other receivers that I think are on the same tier as him.
17:46So I don't think there's a big gap where it's like I just need to take Jordan Tyson.
17:50I think he's really good short to intermediate.
17:52I question a little bit about winning down the field at the next level.
17:55But there was just something when I watched him that was like, stay away, stay away.
18:00So I'm ready to be wrong about that.
18:03But the other one I have is Emmanuel Pregnon, the guard from Oregon.
18:06I think he's the best in the draft.
18:08I think he's over Yawani from Penn State.
18:11And there's a lot of love for Yawani.
18:12I think both are really good.
18:13I've got both as top 25 players.
18:16But I think Pregnon's better.
18:17Why don't you think Tyson can win down the field?
18:20I think there's a little bit of a question for me in terms of just his speed
18:23and being able to contest.
18:25But you just mean getting behind the defense then?
18:26Yeah, that's all.
18:27Because I think winning down the field is still also winning contested catches.
18:29Yeah, he can win contested catches.
18:30I think he's the best contested catch down the field.
18:35I think Boston's better, personally.
18:37But he can win contested catches.
18:39Like some of the toughness stuff that came out about him.
18:41I don't know if it was McShay or Daniel Jeremiah.
18:43DJ said something about it.
18:44Yeah, I didn't see that.
18:45I didn't see a guy that has any toughness questions.
18:47For me, it's mainly just the injury history.
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