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02:25airing on TV6, March 8th at 8pm.
02:30So, you have big plans for the end.
02:33A trip in July, birthday in November, and fet after fet this carnival.
02:39But you know what is stop plans?
02:41A $22,500 fine.
02:46You know what else could really stop your plans?
02:49Five years imprisonment and suspension on your license for three years.
02:55Don't drink and drive.
03:16Good evening, Trinidad and Tobago and our international viewers as well.
03:20This is Beyond the Tape.
03:21I'm your host, Whitney Husbands.
03:23Now, the conversation continues when it comes to the SOE, and we're smack in the middle of the week.
03:28And with that being said, it's Legally Speaking Wednesdays to give us more information on that and the rights of
03:33the citizens.
03:33And where we stand in yet another SOE, we have the amazing and, of course, knowledgeable attorney at law.
03:40We have Mr. Zaheer Ali here with us this evening.
03:43And, of course, he is the Director of Policy and Community Support at the Ministry of Homeland Security.
03:48Mr. Ali, good evening to you, sir.
03:51And I know you're ready.
03:53Well, you know, I thought I was ready after that introduction.
03:57You know, you always seem to be finding, you know, very descriptive words, amazing and so forth.
04:03And I hope I can fulfill, you know, those descriptions that you have given, you know, to my good sir.
04:10But, you know, it's our honor and pleasure to be here, as always, to join you.
04:14Yes.
04:14And I also always take the opportunity to thank you for the, you know, excellent work as well.
04:20We persons may be looking on, but, you know, the sacrifice, the professionalism, five days a week.
04:29You know, these are very difficult circumstances.
04:31And, you know, you ought to be saluted as well for an excellent job in terms of, from a media
04:36context.
04:38Very open, very transparent, very truthful.
04:40So, you know, it's indeed a pleasure to be here to join you, as always.
04:43And I'm sure the other persons who accompany you on a daily and weekly basis will share a similar sentiment.
04:49So, on behalf of the TTPS, on behalf of the Ministry of Homeland, and the Accenture and the Citizensary, you
04:54know, let me say thanks to you as well.
04:56And to Jackie as well, because she's very instrumental.
04:58Well, I'm going to her now, you know.
05:01You know, they say, you know, it's important for partnership.
05:04And I think that partnership that both of you all have, I think it's an excellent partnership.
05:07And hence, you know, the justice that Beyond the Tape does on a daily basis.
05:11So, Jackie, to you as well, I salute you this afternoon as well.
05:14And also to your team, very important.
05:16You know, sometimes we miss very important persons who are there to support us, whether directly or indirectly.
05:21So, you know, I want to make mention of it this afternoon to my law enforcement colleagues, you know, across
05:26the various institutions.
05:28Yes.
05:28Very important time, as you indicated.
05:31As a matter of a mammoth task, again, very serious powers, you know, afforded to law enforcement agencies, including the
05:38Defence Force as well.
05:40To the Citizensary of Trinidad and Tobago.
05:43These powers are afforded to be able to continue to protect you, to make you safe.
05:49And it's important for us to really appreciate exactly what is happening in Trinidad and Tobago and the need for
05:54decisive and stern action.
05:55And, you know, Whitney, while you said that a lot is on SOE, you know, I want to say that
06:01that right to safety and security.
06:04I should say that right to life, safety and security, which is fundamental in the Constitution.
06:10There's no other right that you can enjoy if you don't have right to life, safety and security of the
06:17person.
06:17So, it's very significant.
06:19And, again, the decision makers have reverted to the rule of law, giving some strength in terms of the response
06:27to crime and criminality.
06:28And it's important for two very important institutions here, and I want to say to the outset, it's important for
06:34law enforcement to appreciate what has been given to them, again.
06:40And to the citizenry to also appreciate the need for why these powers are given to law enforcement.
06:47So, you know, I hope and expect that there's mature thinking.
06:50You know, we are a democratic society.
06:52You're going to get different views, different perspectives.
06:53We respect all, but I think that we all should be taking our mind to ensure that we bring some
07:00order to Trinidad and Tobago as it relates to crime and criminality.
07:03But, as always, let me see how best I can assist you this afternoon.
07:06So, we dive in straight into it, Mr. Ali.
07:08You know, you mentioned before with regards to the new regulations that are popping up.
07:12And I think most of the citizens may not be aware of it.
07:15And I know most persons or some, I don't know, I can't give a clear figure, may be disgruntled with
07:21regards.
07:21So, yes, we're back into another SOE, but we are here.
07:23So, we need to know how to function in this period as we move forward.
07:27So, with that being said, with the new regulations that we're seeing and fines up to $100,000, five years
07:32imprisonment, is that and or all?
07:36I don't have the actual regulations with me, but just see if it's all on.
07:40Okay, so, what I'm going to bring up, which is one that I guess is circulating heavily on social media
07:45with regards to social media.
07:47Because that is a thing that persons are using a lot of.
07:51Now, what they're seeing restrictions on public statements to the regulations for the state that it is an offense to
07:58influence public opinion in a manner likely to be prejudicial to public safety poses or distributes material intended to facilitate
08:08such action.
08:10So, Whitney, let me take this very, very slowly for members of the public and, in fact, by extension, law
08:16enforcement.
08:20When you look at the anti-gang legislation of Trinidad and Tobago, and going on the basis that the intelligence
08:27suggested that organized crime and gangs were, again, posing a serious threat to public safety and security.
08:32Within that legislation, that legislation accommodates statements made by the criminal gangs and organized syndicates.
08:42It captures that in the legislation of the anti-gang legislation.
08:46So, I want to begin there.
08:48The second thing is, under the Sedition Act of Trinidad and Tobago, it speaks about statements that has a seditious
08:55intent, meaning that it could engender hostility between two or more cross-sections of the society and so forth.
09:02So, the anti-gang legislation and the sedition act speaks to statements, public statements, statements that are made and published
09:10and reach third parties.
09:11So, the question is, why am I tabling those two legislation to make the point?
09:17What has been placed in the regulation, in my respect for view, also find flavors in two other pieces of
09:24legislation.
09:24So, if you want to ask about relevance, there is relevance in relation to why this particular provision, in my
09:32respect for view, is important to be able to preserve the peace at minimum.
09:37Secondly, or thirdly, I should say, there was a case that went all the way to the Privy Council, a
09:44case involving the Mahasaba, the late Mr. Satmaraj.
09:50And, again, public statements in the public domain, investigated by the police, there was a constitutional challenge to the Sedition
09:57Act that led all the way up to the Privy Council.
09:59And the Privy Council, in that case, give very clear guidelines.
10:03And the Privy Council, for those who are listening, is the apex court, is the highest court, is the court
10:09that the lower courts are binded by.
10:11In other words, it shapes the law.
10:13It interprets the law.
10:14And they found that statements that incites violence, or in this case, lends support or threatens public safety and security,
10:27ought to be dealt with very seriously.
10:29So, I want the citizenry to understand that this particular regulation wasn't geared to curb your right to freedom of
10:40expression.
10:41I was not going to ask that.
10:42It didn't, it's not your right, it's not an opportunity to curb freedom of the press.
10:48Having said that, those two constitutional rights, freedom of expression and opinion, freedom of the press, the law lords have
10:54said again that it is not absolute.
10:56Meaning that you don't, because you have your freedom of expression, and sometime I go, I spoke about this, but
11:03in a media context.
11:04So, you have the right to express yourself, you have the right to freedom of the press, but you don't
11:09have the license to just do what you want, how you want, and when you want, because in a society,
11:15particularly like ours, we must have order.
11:18And if you allow speech to go to a certain extent, you can provoke persons to breach the peace.
11:22Or in this case, here with emergency power regulation, could you imagine criminal gangs, they want to have conflict with
11:30rival gangs, so they're on social media.
11:32And that's correct, they're making statements, and these statements, the prejudicial to public safety, it means that if they decide
11:39to act on those statements, what you have?
11:41You have mass shooting. We saw what happened in the Beatham Gardens some time ago.
11:47We saw the triple murder. So, law enforcement, and by extension, the decision makers, was very careful, in my respect
11:56for view, when they are putting provisions like these to ensure that they promote public safety and security.
12:02So, the average citizen, who at old material times, is keeping within his right to freedom of expression, and freedom
12:11of the press, where the media is concerned, and not inciting violence, or statements likely to incite violence, you continue
12:17to enjoy your democracy, you continue to enjoy your freedom.
12:20But once you are bordering on matters that are likely to prejudice public safety, and let me deal with the
12:26public safety as the last limit.
12:29Public safety and security has to do with serious criminal offenses. It has to do with affecting more than an
12:38individual.
12:39So, in other words, a statement, well, I want to use the word affecting more than a few, understood, which
12:46is more than two.
12:46That's correct. So, I want the citizenry to understand, as well, that we might be taking this statement light with
12:53me, and I'm going to bring around a real example.
12:55Could you imagine that two rival gangs on social media is having the...
13:01Yes, dispute.
13:03...the statements are geared towards incite and violence.
13:07Unknowing to you and I, we complete the show, we say goodbye to each other, and then we head to
13:13our...
13:14Separate locations.
13:14...separate locations.
13:15Unknowing that you or I or both is about a cross between an area that these two gangs are looking
13:23to extend their social media banter.
13:27And that's why I want you to understand that we just cannot see it as simple statements, but there can
13:34be consequences, collateral damage, and, as I said before, enjoy your rights.
13:38Yes, this is not a curb your right, but do not lead yourself where you are inciting violence or your
13:45statements is likely to prejudice public safety and security.
13:48Quickly, before we move right along, I want to make this clear, because you spoke about gangs, but what about
13:53persons who now direct their anger towards public officials, which we have seen, especially one that holds the highest...
13:59One of the highest officers in Trinidad and Tobago, the Honorable Prime Minister, and we saw a person who was
14:04held accountable for her set actions.
14:07Where are we with that? Because, yes, you can disagree with what is happening, and you may not like what
14:11is taking place.
14:12And, yes, you want to view your opinion, but where is the line drawn where individuals come to engaging with
14:20public officials, with statements?
14:22Beautiful question. And when we are looking at public officials, you have the right as well to hold decision-makers
14:31accountable.
14:32Correct.
14:32You can, you know, things that are happening, but, again, it comes back to how the approach you are taking,
14:40the statements you are making, the dissemination, the publication, cannot be geared towards inciting violence against that office or threatening
14:48public safety and security.
14:50And remember when you're looking at public officials as well, by their very nature, they attract some level of public
14:55interest.
14:55Of course.
14:55Because of who they are.
14:56Yes.
14:57The office is all.
14:58That's correct. So it calls for responsible conduct.
14:59Now, it would be remiss of me, Whitney, if I don't say, though, and because of the many hats that
15:06I wear, I've spoken at it in the context of promoting law enforcement, promoting the rule of law, ensuring that
15:13there is public safety and security.
15:14I've spoken on the balancing where the citizen also has a right to freedom of expression, and the media has
15:20a freedom of the press.
15:22I will strongly advise the law enforcement agencies.
15:26And I want to repeat, I will strongly advise the law enforcement agencies that, notwithstanding what I said, in terms
15:32of looking at a balanced position and understanding the true purpose of the law,
15:36if we are to pursue this particular regulation, and listening to the cries, or I should say the feeling the
15:44temperate of Trinidad and Tobago,
15:46it will always be advisable when we are engaging this provision, whether to arrest, charge, and so forth,
15:53engage the director of public prosecutions as an independent office who will help insulate any perception that law enforcement may
16:04be acting on a law upon itself or may be inclined to curb freedom of expression or freedom of the
16:11media.
16:11So, you know, that's my way of balancing it, but I want us to sit down over a cup of
16:16tea, perhaps for dinner, and understand, look at it from different angles.
16:22You may be a citizen, bring yourself to law enforcement.
16:24You are law enforcement, put yourself in a citizen's shoe.
16:27You are in public officials, and let us rotate, and we will see clearly as to exactly the true purpose
16:34of why these regulations were there.
16:36Yeah, yeah. So, as we move forward, and we're back in an SOE of the period, as of midnight, March
16:413rd, going into March 4th, which is over the 30-hour period,
16:45we are taking a look at what is taking place with the updates thus far with the SOE.
16:51We are seeing number of operations now at 95, target priority offenders 24, searches conducted 714, traffic operations 36,
17:01total persons arrested 18, total persons charged 10, traffic offenses detected 138, firearms recovered, we're seeing a total of 3,
17:15ammunitions recovered, we're seeing increased 21 wrongs from the 9mm, 30 wrongs of the 5.6, and we're seeing the
17:24total at 51.
17:26And dangerous drug sees, we're seeing an increase of the cannabis, and also with the grams of cocaine.
17:34Ms. Ali?
17:35Well, while we may want to say may hours or days since the declaration of the state of emergency,
17:41what is very clear on these statistics that you have just read?
17:45We are seeing recovery of firearms, we are seeing a number of operations, we are seeing dangerous drugs,
17:52and it is a clear indication that these things are among our population.
18:01And hence why I said before that with a tool like this, with powers like this, it's important for law
18:08enforcement.
18:09This tool called the SOE also requires strategy, you know, Whitney?
18:14Correct.
18:14So, strategy is not left out. So, you have the tool, you have the power. The question is, how are
18:20you going to enforce this?
18:21So, it's important for the law enforcement, in my respectful view as well,
18:25why sit as policy to be able to identify to them that is not just the tool has been given
18:31to you.
18:32It's important to sit down and recognize, okay, let me look at this tool.
18:35Let me look at the intelligence that I have.
18:37How can this tool be effective in terms of the intelligence that I have?
18:40Where can I be most effective?
18:42And notwithstanding, and I know some citizens probably eager to call in, and I'm actually predicting them.
18:49The SOE regulations does not dismiss the other laws that are available.
18:56And I mentioned too a while ago the Sedition Act, the anti-gang legislation, the anti-terrorism act.
19:03But those legislation are seated and ready to be utilized, to be able to deal with crime and criminality.
19:11So, this is just, in my respect of view, additional powers, but there are powers that are already existing that
19:17can also be factored in,
19:19so that we get maximum.
19:20And hence why I'm saying that it's important to sit down and strategize properly to make the most effective use
19:26of this particular tool.
19:28And that's what we're doing right now.
19:29Yes.
19:29Right now, let's take a look at what's making today's headlines.
19:59And those were the stories making today's headlines.
20:01Remember, you can give us a call at 623-1711, extension 1996 and 1997.
20:08We'll take that short break.
20:09We'll be back.
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21:47And welcome, Mark, to be on the tape.
21:49We have our attorney at law, Mr. Ali, here with us.
21:51I understand we have a caller on the line.
21:53Caller, good evening.
21:56Good evening, Mr. Osborne.
21:58Yes, good evening to you, sir.
21:59And a very good afternoon to the director.
22:00Good evening to you, sir.
22:02I am putting you on a Martin Wicket in Praysal
22:06and I'm imitating Boya Sahadeo.
22:09This evening, I want to pick up and praise the National Security Apparatus
22:17and the PDUs.
22:20I think that is a public detention order, right?
22:23That preventative measure has prevented at least 242 lives.
22:33That is how critical that is.
22:36And a lot of people haven't understood the reasons for that.
22:41Everything is why they're doing that.
22:44They're preventing public infringing on human rights and things like that.
22:50But to me, doing a little bit of quality assurance,
22:52that is a preventative method, and I'm hoping it will continue under this.
22:58A button, because I see the criticizing, the commissioner of police.
23:04I button for him.
23:06And let me tell you why.
23:08No one man can do it.
23:10And he needs help.
23:11And I'm going to identify the gaps.
23:14I see that is basically hampering.
23:17And the first one, the first entity is the police service commissioner.
23:24They are not honest, and I believe you use a term, command of their profession.
23:31They are supposed to make the decision to move outside people for investigation to do.
23:35The second one is the PCA.
23:39The PCA director said the police service is one of the biggest gangs.
23:42How has he moved the TTPs forward?
23:46Still outside him.
23:47The DPP office, the DPP has always complained of no resources.
23:51But we all know in times where we have limited resources,
23:55we have to use it effectively and efficiently to get value added.
23:59And the third one, the second division.
24:03The second division of the police service accounts for 90% of the police service.
24:09And where they are.
24:11I believe they confuse the horse and the cat.
24:15To me, the horse is the TTPs organization.
24:18It's fixing first, and the chariot is the second division.
24:22When the horse is identified and you fix it, then you can get all the frills for the chariot.
24:30And then the most critical one, the leadership of the police service, apart from the commission of police.
24:38As I always said, there are issues.
24:42The defense minister said there is no vacancy.
24:46And the TTP said they want him to fail.
24:51They said they want him to fail.
24:53The opposition want him to fail.
24:54I'm saying no more.
24:55I'm bullying.
24:56I'm square to the ball.
24:57And I hope you can respond to it.
24:59I'm going to have a nice season.
25:01Thank you so much, Carlo.
25:01Five points.
25:03Well, there's quite a lot to absorb.
25:05And, you know, perhaps with Nia, you may have to borrow your notes.
25:08Yes.
25:09Where you want to start?
25:10From the top or?
25:11Well, I may have to borrow your notes subsequently to ensure that, you know,
25:14I draft a proper correspondence and, you know, forward it to the Honorable Minister of Homeland Security
25:18so that, you know, those things can be properly dealt with.
25:20I think that, you know, where he's pitching, he's pitching in, you know, just back in the
25:24cricket in terms.
25:25I may just have to shoulder arms and allow those, you know, deliveries, you know, to go
25:28past.
25:28But I'm protecting that tristom.
25:30So, you know, I'm going to forward it to high authority.
25:33So, Whitney, I am depending on you this afternoon for those points.
25:37But, Carlo, thank you very much on a serious note, you know, raising from very serious concerns.
25:41And one point I want to take from him, Whitney.
25:43Yes.
25:44You know, and I have said it as well, that when we're speaking about crime and criminality,
25:48you know, the first thing that comes to mind is that, you know, you want to look at the
25:51police commissioner.
25:51Yes, he's in charge of the Trinidad and Tobago police service.
25:54And, of course, you'll call on him to account.
25:56But in these emergency regulations, what they have demonstrated is that they have now opened
26:01the door legally to have the support of the Trinidad and Tobago Defense Force to
26:06step in now and support the commissioner on the TTPS.
26:08So, you know, I think that, you know, when we're looking at crime and criminality, if
26:12we were very critical in looking at these regulations, it's also empowering or affording
26:17powers to the defense force.
26:20Once the commissioner of police calls on the chief of defense staff for the deployment of
26:24those defense force officers, the police will have the support.
26:28But it's important, I will always say, that the police must always be leading and directing,
26:34notwithstanding that the defense force is coming on board.
26:37So that, because they are more experienced in terms of ensuring that there is a proper
26:43application and enforcement of the law.
26:44But I just wanted to bring that point to all this afternoon.
26:46Well, I'm happy that you mentioned it, so we will give reference to that as well, where
26:50they said the obligation to stop for police, drivers must stop when directed to do so by
26:56uniformed police officers.
26:57The defense force may also be called upon to assist the police service when deployed soldiers
27:02will have the same powers as police officers under the said regulations of the new regulations.
27:08Now, with that being said, there was an incident that took place in the Arema area.
27:11And this one, I want you to guide us here because there are many things that stood out to me
27:15here.
27:16Yes.
27:16Responding to crime cops blanked at entrance to gated community.
27:21Now, police responding to a reported home invasion at a gated community in Arema on Tuesday.
27:27We initially denied entry by private security officers because they were in plain clothes
27:32and traveling in an unmarked vehicle.
27:35Investigators believe the delay, which lasted approximately 45 minutes, may have given two
27:41criminals that is sufficient time to escape after robbing a 50-year-old woman of jewelry,
27:46electronics, items valued at thousands of dollars.
27:49Police said at around 2.15 p.m., the woman contacted authorities reporting that she had been
27:55at her apartment in the Eastlake community engaged in a work-related conference call when two
28:01masked men entered the premises.
28:03The assailants, described as wearing ski masks, hoodies, and three-quarter-length jeans,
28:09allegedly attacked the woman, threw her to the ground, and robbed her of four gold rings,
28:14one gold chain, a Samsung cell phone, and a box containing electronic devices and other items.
28:21The men reportedly searched most of the apartment but found nothing else of value.
28:25They then left the premises without further assaulting the victim.
28:29Now, officers who responded said they were prevented from entering the gated compound by private security personnel.
28:36Senior officers were contacted, and upon their arrival, access was eventually granted.
28:41By that time, the suspects had fled.
28:44Additional officers processed the scene and circulated a description of the suspect,
28:50but no arrests were made up to late Tuesday.
28:53Now, listen to this.
28:54Before leaving, police recorded the names of the two security officers who initially denied them entry.
29:00Now, under the state of emergency regulations announced on Tuesday, police officers are empowered to enter premises without a warrant.
29:09And this here is crazy.
29:12Uniform or not, this is very important as well.
29:15Well, Whitney, thanks for reading such detailed facts.
29:18And before I go there, I just want you to ask me a question earlier, and I think it's important
29:22for us not to miss it.
29:23With reference to the offense under the emergency powers regulations, and you asked, it's $100,000 and five years in
29:29prison.
29:30So, it is conjunctive.
29:31Not all.
29:32So, five years and $100,000 for breach of the regulations, offenses under the regulations.
29:39Right?
29:39So, just be guided, just be warned.
29:43Whitney, this situation here, I will take the opportunity early o'clock to advise the executive of the TTPS to
29:51investigate this matter properly.
29:52Yes.
29:53And there's a reason why I'm asking to investigate this matter properly, in terms of what you have read for
29:57us.
29:58And I'm just going based on the facts of the matter.
30:00Perhaps there are other things that we probably don't know.
30:03Correct.
30:03But, just from an academic point, not strictly speaking to the factual scenario, and you alluded to when you were
30:10coming to the end of reading the article.
30:14Yes, we know a state of emergency.
30:16But even prior to us, as I say, out of the state of emergency, police has a statutory duty to
30:21prevent, detect crime and other infraction of the law.
30:25That's significant for me.
30:26And if there's a report of crime, and in this case, crime involving a person's property.
30:32Correct.
30:32The police, at that stage, they're what they call in hot pursuit.
30:36Mm-hmm.
30:37To be able to prevent or detect crime and other infraction of the law.
30:41So, I find it very, very, and I want to use a word, you know, very strong word.
30:46I find it very troubling.
30:49I don't want to use any other word.
30:50It's troubling in terms of what has been identified, what has been described in terms of the circumstances, the delay
30:57in getting to deal with crime and criminality.
30:59I don't know whether it's a situation where the officers, the status quo, I don't know whether they were properly
31:05dressed.
31:06I don't know what vehicle they were in.
31:08I don't know whether they briefed those security officers properly.
31:10And on the other hand, I don't even know whether the security officers, whether there's any intelligence to suggest that
31:17there's any nexus between what was happening within the compound.
31:20So, I'm looking at it on both sides, and hence why I'm saying that it's important to get a full
31:26inquiry done in relation to this matter.
31:28This matter should not reoccur.
31:30No way in Trinidad and Tobago.
31:32And more so now that we're in an emergency, or a state of emergency, and officers, if they're receiving intelligence,
31:39and there is suspicion of crime and criminality, or persons in possession of firearms and ammunition and prohibited articles and
31:45explosives, the police will be empowered to pursue and deal with these matters.
31:50So, I say that to say this, that the security industry, what I will suggest strongly is that whether you
31:57have preceptive officers, or whether you have just security officers who are not preceptive, please hold emergency briefings with these
32:05officers so that they will have a clear picture as to how this emergency powers regulation operates, how the police
32:11powers is to be viewed, and how they are to be rendering the necessary assistance to ensure that we prevent
32:18and detect crime and other infraction of the law.
32:20The security industry, I always say, Whitney, is very important.
32:24Yes.
32:24It's very important, and I'll do everything to be able to support them.
32:27So, I'm saying in the first instance, the security inspectors and the persons who are in charge of these persons
32:33who are deploying them, brief them, educate them, and if you're not aware of what needs to be done, communicate
32:40with us, and we'll get the necessary information to you all.
32:43Of course, more to dive into, but before we do that, we need to take a short break.
32:46We'll be back.
32:54We'll be back.
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33:34Oh, yeah, she caught me.
33:36It's pawn rules.
33:36Mm-hmm.
33:37Pawn rules.
33:38Disney and Pixar's Hoppers.
33:39Do you still wanna...
33:41Nuh-uh.
33:41It's weird now.
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35:24It's Legally Speaking Wednesdays.
35:26We have our attorney at law, Zaheer Ali.
35:28We head back to the phone lines at this time.
35:30We have a call on the line.
35:31Caller, good evening.
35:32Good evening to the panel.
35:34Good evening to you, ma'am.
35:35Yeah.
35:37Officer, I was looking at that to the PDO, because I know somebody got into real trouble with that PDO
35:43previously,
35:44because they put up the person's house way to us and tell this one to come in, you know, and
35:49I know some, they have to be very careful with that.
35:51But my point is, I remember when the DOSO had failed, one person said, we have a plan B.
35:59I'm wondering now, well, where is the plan B, because something really needs to be gone.
36:04Because people, these violent people can't be saying what they want, about who, what they want, and who they're coming
36:09for, and who they're coming for.
36:10So they really need to put something in place to deal with them.
36:13And not only them with the gun story, they're coming in people's house, too, and, you know, and interfering with
36:19people.
36:20The second thing is, I read where the general who betrayed the Iranian leader, he told them where he was
36:29and everything.
36:30He took his own life.
36:32Officer, I'm asking a question.
36:33What do you think about a suspended police officer being promoted?
36:38What do you think about that?
36:40What should be done about that?
36:41But we need to do something.
36:43They said that is the only reason we have any is SOE, so we need to do something so we
36:49don't have to be living by SOE, SOE all the time.
36:51And I want to know how long this one will last.
36:54If it's just 15 days, if it's a month or what.
36:56We just want to get more guns.
36:58We now start, and I want to really get more guns.
37:01Be safe.
37:02Get home easy.
37:03All of you.
37:04Thank you very, very much.
37:05Thank you so much, ma'am.
37:06Sally?
37:07Well, you know, three significant points.
37:12And, you know, the reference to the issue of where a police officer is suspended and whether that person should
37:16be promoted.
37:17You know, you want to be very careful in terms of how you're approaching that point.
37:20And I'll just probably just agitate it a little bit, not to conclude on it, because it requires deeper discussion,
37:26wide discussion.
37:26But these are some of the contemplation.
37:28The person who may be on suspension, let's say you're on suspension for a criminal offense.
37:32There still are what?
37:33A presumption of innocence and then proven guilty.
37:35That's one.
37:36And secondly, with reference to suspension, if there's no clear policy,
37:43and if you are not looking at the regulation and see whether, in fact, even if the person is not
37:48convicted,
37:49the degree or the conduct, so someone may not be convicted, not because the evidence is not good,
37:54perhaps the process, maybe procedural issues, maybe a delay on people, you know.
37:59So I'm just saying that this has to be properly taught out so that you can have in the public
38:04interest what is best for the public interest,
38:06whether this officer, notwithstanding that he's not convicted, but his conduct is so grievous
38:11that he ought not to be in the police service in the public's interest or a situation where he is
38:18not convicted
38:20and when you look at his circumstances, there was no evidence to be able to put him before court.
38:25And when you look at his conduct, it's a performing officer, an officer who is charging, he's arresting,
38:30he's doing his job properly.
38:32So it's a very delicate situation, and you have to be very careful in terms of how you're approaching it.
38:38But I know that this matter has come up not once, not twice, many times,
38:41and I think that it's right to look at it from the regulations, to look at it from a policy
38:46context,
38:46and perhaps look at some reform where it's concerned.
38:49Just look about officers not wearing the uniform and engaging,
38:54because, you know, the criminal elements will use that to their advantage now,
38:58because if they're seeing that they're getting the opportunity to move the way they can,
39:03they can mimic what we have seen.
39:04Yes.
39:05Well, in terms of identification, it's important with these kind of powers, Whitney.
39:10Yeah.
39:10It's important, and hence why I'm saying that part of the briefing and strategy
39:15is to ensure that the rank and files, in my respective view,
39:18and I know perhaps the executive is thinking about it, probably they've already done it,
39:22that they must emphasize that there is very senior supervision when you have these kind of powers as well.
39:28In other words, I would love to see that you have, at minimum, inspectors and above
39:33when you are doing operations in the general community,
39:37so that you have one experience or a super self experience,
39:41you have knowledge on the ground, and you have persons who can make decisions
39:45that will be balanced in a given situation.
39:47So, perhaps, and I don't know what happened in the gated community issue,
39:52in a situation where there was an inspector on board.
39:55Well, they called the senior, and then the senior showed up later,
39:58and that's how they were able to get it.
39:59That's the point.
40:00After 45 minutes later, that's crazy.
40:02That's the point.
40:02So, what I think that we require is we have an SOE,
40:07and if we look at how we want to enforce this SOE,
40:09I think that we need to lay down some policies as to exactly how we are going about it.
40:13So, you may say, okay, no search of any house unless there's a corporal and above.
40:18In uniform?
40:19In uniform, and even looking at, in some instances,
40:24you may have to, based on the intelligence,
40:26I cannot stand here and say that do X and do Y.
40:30These operational matters will also be dependent on what intelligence you have.
40:34But the point I'm bringing across is that the strategy must also be administrative strategy,
40:40not only operational strategy.
40:41So, if you are saying that we have intelligence at a particular house,
40:44there's high-power rifles,
40:46you may want to say, okay, I don't want less than a sergeant to lead that operation.
40:50So, you are sending experience.
40:53You are sending knowledge to be able to manage that situation
40:56because you are, what, impacting or likely to impact what?
41:00Rights of individual.
41:01Enjoyment of property, right of liberty, and matters along those lines.
41:05So, it's important for us to use the regulations responsibly
41:09because the citizen confidence will also increase
41:12if they're seeing that sort of response.
41:14We have another caller.
41:15Caller, good evening.
41:17Hello?
41:18Yeah, blessing to you, Mr. Whitney and Charlie.
41:21Good evening to you, sir.
41:23So, we are getting fed up now with the judiciary.
41:27Some of the police, the CTPS, and the DPP, 20 million dollars.
41:33So, 10 people, whether it was innocent or guilty,
41:37they have to pay this big tax bill, money, have to pay 20 million dollars.
41:41For what, something is not right there, it's police overwork.
41:44I know they have been overwork, and they cannot come across some time,
41:47but it's up to up.
41:48And now, these people have no practice anymore than to you,
41:51so you're supposed to be arrested.
41:52You can't be working till the limit.
41:54You can't go into court for 9 o'clock anymore, and that can never work.
41:56Something is wrong with the judiciary in this country.
41:5920 million dollars to buy more high forward guns.
42:02So, crime is what?
42:02This is not right.
42:03Something is wrong.
42:04I'm really fed up now with this kind of result coming from the judiciary.
42:09Something is wrong.
42:10Something has to be done.
42:11Thanks a lot.
42:12All right.
42:12Thank you, Kolo.
42:14Well, I've heard the cry in that caller's voice.
42:17And, you know, Whitney, when you see that recent matter involving the payments
42:22for these persons who were involved in the Vintra Nipole matter,
42:26I expect the public to be concerned.
42:31And, you know, they have expressed it, well, through this caller,
42:34and I think that while attempts may have been made through the court system to look at it,
42:40I think that perhaps from an internal context,
42:42a deeper inquiry needs to be conducted to determine whether, in fact, our systems,
42:47and I know previously they would have ordered an audit to be done.
42:51And I think it's important now that we have, and we meaning the public,
42:56and I advocate on behalf of the public to at least have some, unless they dubbed it as a very
43:01sensitive report,
43:02we need to get an understanding of what transpired.
43:05So maybe there's a need to what?
43:06Inform our processes so that you don't have a recurrence of what transpired.
43:10Because to date, we do not know the nitty-gritties of what transpired.
43:15So I think it's important for us to have full and transparent conduct in relation to this matter
43:22so that we can, as I said before, look at ways of improving the processes.
43:25It's no different from every other thing that we have spoken about,
43:27reform of the police service, looking at strategies to deal with crime and criminality,
43:32organized crime gang.
43:33Well, from an administrative context, we need to also look at those systems.
43:36Ladies and gentlemen, we take that short break.
43:38We'll be back.
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46:06It's Caribbean Passport TV on CCN TV6, Sunday at 7.30pm.
46:22Welcome, Mark. We are back to the 4-9s. We have a call online.
46:25Caller, good evening.
46:26Good evening, folks.
46:28Glad to engage.
46:30Stanley, listen.
46:32Respecting the over-transpension,
46:34you would have identified some of the reasons why such a person would be reinstated and receive the benefit.
46:43But what we have to recall, too, is after the process of assessment for any promotional office in the police
46:50service,
46:51and this is generated,
46:53if you are on suspension and then you are recalled to duty,
46:57the practice has been laid out in law with previous decisions, precedence,
47:04that the person would,
47:06wherever we are in the line,
47:07they would get their entitlement.
47:11Right?
47:11But also,
47:13administratively as well,
47:14so you are aware,
47:15the completion of any matter where an officer is charged before the court.
47:18There is the other side of it in the police service internal system where that officer will be asked to
47:29state
47:29they haven't been before the court on a criminal charge for whatever it may be,
47:33smaller summary or indictable,
47:36state why they should not be dismissed within 14 days.
47:40That occurs.
47:42And therefore now,
47:43as the officer has to justify to the police service,
47:47to either choose their own submission or that of an attorney,
47:51why they should be re-engaged.
47:52So the system is there to treat with,
47:55if in the public's eyes,
47:57an officer escapes justice in the open court,
48:01the policing internal discipline survey procedure caters for that.
48:05And if the person is vindicated,
48:08then they are entitled to all that they were denied while bringing on suspension.
48:14Additionally,
48:15we might look at,
48:15in other spheres of influence in our country,
48:18there are people who have committed serious breaches
48:22and are enjoying the benefits of higher office in other professions.
48:26People would have been accused of certain things
48:30and going through a disciplinary procedure in their profession.
48:33and they're still able to work and conduct a salary
48:37or get a salary.
48:38The police service or police officers or the officers of national security
48:42are the only people who are sent home
48:44and asked to get their salary cut and so on
48:48and they have not been guilty of anything.
48:50And what I'm saying,
48:51people must look at the other side as well.
48:53You would have had financial commitments to continue.
48:57And when your salary is one quarter or half,
49:00how do you need those commitments?
49:01When, curiously,
49:03there is a regulation that says
49:04no officer must find themselves being in debt.
49:08In debtiveness is a disciplinary matter
49:09for which you could be dismissed.
49:12How do we do?
49:12How do we satisfy or deal with that?
49:16You understand?
49:18So there must be equity and fairness
49:20when people assess how these things go.
49:23So I am glad that you are there to bring light into dark areas
49:27and I will be glad to assist you in this area as I have done.
49:31Thanks for your opportunity.
49:32Thank you so much, Carla.
49:33Ms. Salih.
49:34Carla, thank you very much.
49:35And I want to thank you as well for bringing some perspective to it.
49:38I'm happy that you went into the context of due process.
49:40That right and natural justice principles
49:41in terms of where you're giving the officer an opportunity to be heard.
49:44Very important that he make mention of it.
49:46And hence why I'm saying that it's a very sensitive matter.
49:48And it's a matter that requires some looking at
49:51in terms of probably informing policy
49:52so that you have a proper balance
49:53so that the public interest is served.
49:55But also the individual who is the subject
49:58is also being properly balanced.
50:00So I love the opportunity you give me to call on you
50:05so please leave your number with the producer
50:08and probably we have some further discussion on this matter
50:11because it's a live matter
50:12and if you're talking reform in a general context
50:14you don't only be looking at hard core response
50:20to crime and criminality
50:21because sometimes we miss.
50:23To deal with it you need what?
50:25The capacity, human resource capacity and competence.
50:28So you need to look at this in a whole room.
50:30But Kola, thanks very much
50:31and I appreciate the perspective
50:33that you have given this afternoon.
50:34Ms. Ali, what is habeas corpus?
50:36Habeas corpus is a remedy
50:38that is available in a situation
50:41where someone is arrested and detained.
50:43And when they are arrested and detained
50:45that they are now challenging
50:46the grounds of the arrest,
50:48the grounds of the continued detention.
50:50In other words, they are actually alleging
50:52that the police, law enforcement
50:53had no authority to arrest,
50:55no authority to detain
50:56and that habeas application
50:58is a remedy that you make to the high court
50:59for a high court now to review
51:02the circumstances surrounding the arrest and detention
51:04to determine whether you should continue to be detained
51:06or whether you should be ordered
51:08to be released immediately
51:09and perhaps you may get damages as you go along.
51:11But that can happen now
51:12because there's an SOE.
51:13Well, in this situation,
51:14if you look at emergency powers regulation,
51:15they seem to have removed the jurisdiction
51:19of the high court
51:19when it comes to, in the first instance,
51:21there's something called
51:22the preventive detention order.
51:23If the Honorable Minister issues that order,
51:25a high court has no jurisdiction
51:27to review that
51:28unless the minister decides,
51:29well, okay, I'm going to release the individual
51:31or the SOE comes to an end.
51:32So that's one.
51:33And in terms of the normal,
51:35when I'm using the word normal,
51:36where the police officers are arresting
51:38in the first instance for 48 hours
51:39and then they want to detain
51:41for a further period of seven days,
51:43you have an ASP or a magistrate
51:46who will look and see
51:47whether in fact there's grounds
51:48for further detention beyond 48 hours.
51:50So those are some of the check and balances
51:52and how those things are protected,
51:54but there's no jurisdiction
51:56to the high court
51:57to review that 48 by that seven days as well.
52:00So, you know,
52:01some persons have argued it very strongly,
52:03but again,
52:04it comes back to the point I was making,
52:06that if we are not careful
52:08as a law enforcement agency,
52:09you have been given the license to drive,
52:12and I'm using this figuratively,
52:14advise your drivers.
52:17Advise your drivers.
52:18Let them understand the road regulations.
52:19Let them understand
52:21that I cannot overcrowd this vehicle.
52:23Let them understand
52:23that the traffic lights,
52:24there's a reason for the traffic lights.
52:26Let them understand
52:27when you're approaching an intersection,
52:28approach it with caution.
52:29I say all I have to say
52:30is that the law is there,
52:32the powers are there,
52:33but it's equally important
52:35in terms of how we exercise it
52:36and what check and balance
52:38we are ensuring
52:40to ensure that trust and confidence
52:42are alive.
52:43And the citizens are saying,
52:44yes, I am behind law enforcement with this,
52:47as opposed to saying,
52:47well, look at what they're doing
52:48with the powers.
52:50Now, I just want to mention,
52:52before we go any further,
52:54we have a caller,
52:54but I will touch on this shortly.
52:57So we'll head to the phone lines.
52:59Hello, good evening.
53:01Hello.
53:02Good evening, you're live.
53:05Hello, good evening.
53:06Yes.
53:06I want to ask,
53:08Mr. Ali,
53:09how long would it take
53:10to get a court order
53:14on a matter of retrieving
53:16some money from somebody
53:17on a promissory list?
53:20Repeat that.
53:22Could you repeat that, please?
53:24How long would it take
53:25to get a court order?
53:28A court order?
53:29A court order?
53:29In a matter
53:30where I try to get back
53:32some money from somebody
53:34that I loan,
53:35but there is a promissory note also
53:38that is engaging all that.
53:39We already filed a matter
53:41and everything.
53:43How long would it take
53:43to get a court order?
53:46All right.
53:47Thank you, Kuala.
53:48Kuala, I wish I could give you
53:48the answer right away,
53:49but these are things
53:50that I need proper instructions on
53:51because I cannot predict
53:53without knowing the full facts
53:54to know what's happening
53:55with your matter
53:56in terms of a time frame.
53:57But I don't want to deny you
53:59with the opportunity.
53:59Just call back,
54:01leave a number with the producer
54:01and I'll engage you.
54:02You know,
54:03I want just to get an understanding.
54:04These are things
54:05I'd have to handle
54:05in a very professional manner
54:06and I wouldn't ask you publicly
54:08to get proper instructions
54:09in order to respond to you.
54:10But we need to look at the facts
54:12so that I'll be able
54:13to advise you properly
54:13because we're talking
54:14promissory note.
54:15So I don't know
54:16whether you enter
54:17the petty civil court
54:17or I don't know,
54:18you know,
54:19whether you are looking
54:21at other alternatives.
54:21So I need to look at
54:22the matter in context.
54:23All right.
54:24So let's dive back
54:24into the information
54:27when it comes
54:27to emergency powers regulations
54:29and the new regulations
54:30that we're seeing
54:31that the officers
54:32will have at their disposal.
54:35I don't want to say advantage
54:36but disposal moving forward.
54:38Now there's the stop
54:39and search powers,
54:40search without warrant,
54:42arrest without a warrant,
54:44detention,
54:45no bail in certain cases,
54:47also restrict where a person
54:49may live, work, travel
54:50or with whom they may associate,
54:53require individuals
54:54to report their movements,
54:56order individuals to leave
54:58or stay away
54:59from specific areas.
55:00Now I want to go back
55:01just a little bit here
55:02where it comes to restrict
55:04where a person may live,
55:06work, travel
55:07or with whom
55:07they may associate.
55:09How is that working?
55:10Are you going to tell me
55:11the officer is going to say
55:12you can't,
55:13even though you reside here,
55:14you need to leave this area
55:15and find somewhere else
55:16to live until the SOA is over?
55:19Well,
55:20how does that work?
55:21As I said before,
55:22those,
55:22let's go to the area
55:23in terms of
55:25the movement of persons
55:26and, you know,
55:27where a person should stay
55:29and that sort of thing.
55:30Those are powers
55:30that are given
55:31to the commissioner of police
55:33until Her Excellency
55:35issues orders
55:36in relation to
55:37governing those areas.
55:38So as it stands,
55:39without orders from,
55:40and I haven't seen any
55:41from Her Excellency as yet,
55:43but the regulation
55:43have empowered
55:44the commissioner of police
55:45to issue orders
55:46to be able to say,
55:47okay,
55:47someone needs to be inside
55:48by six,
55:50six to six.
55:50So in other words,
55:51you're giving
55:51the constitutional office
55:53that power
55:54to be able to regulate
55:56movement of persons.
55:57Now,
55:57immediately,
55:58we know Whitney,
55:59and I wouldn't hide from it,
56:00those are very significant
56:01and piercing powers.
56:03It interferes directly
56:05with constitutional rights.
56:06So it's important,
56:08and I am,
56:10I want to say
56:10virtually certain,
56:12that the commissioner
56:12of police
56:12and the executive
56:13is not going to be
56:14utilizing these powers
56:15without proper,
56:16competent,
56:17legal advice.
56:18So for example,
56:19if you have to exercise
56:20a power to restrict
56:21someone's freedom
56:22of movement,
56:23or to say that
56:24you have to,
56:25you're issuing an order
56:26for them to stay
56:26at a particular location,
56:29it's important
56:30to have proper justification
56:33as to why
56:34you are taking
56:34such a step.
56:35And you see those
56:36due process principles
56:37and ensuring
56:38that there is fairness,
56:39because what,
56:40let's say for example,
56:41you have someone
56:41to say in a house
56:42between six and six.
56:43What if that person
56:45has a job
56:46between 6 p.m.
56:47and 6 a.m.
56:48the next morning?
56:49So these things
56:49have to be factored in properly,
56:50and hence why
56:51I will always advise
56:52the executive of the TPS,
56:54ensure that you get
56:55competent,
56:55competent legal advice
56:57before you venture
56:58into issuing orders
56:59that directly impacts
57:01constitutional rights
57:02are very,
57:02very important.
57:03Thanks for raising that.
57:04Yes, that is important
57:05and that we know
57:06what is taking place
57:06and also something
57:07we'll mention quickly,
57:08protected places
57:09regulations state
57:10that the commission
57:11of police
57:12may designate
57:13certain locations
57:14as protected places.
57:16No one may enter
57:17these locations
57:17without authorization.
57:19Police may search
57:20anyone entering
57:21or present
57:22in that said location
57:23remove individuals
57:25who fail to comply
57:26with the directions.
57:28Well, again,
57:28an exclusive power
57:30given to the commissioner
57:30to declare a place
57:31as a protected place
57:33and of course
57:33that place will be regulated.
57:35So none has been declared
57:35as yet according
57:36to my information,
57:37but we need to look out
57:38for it so that
57:38you will be aware.
57:39Just to go back
57:40to one thing
57:41that you make mention
57:41in terms of the powers
57:42of arrest.
57:43Yes.
57:44While there was always
57:46powers of arrest
57:47under the orthodox law,
57:48the criminal law act
57:49and other legislation,
57:51the powers
57:52were there for the police.
57:53A unique thing
57:55that I want to identify
57:55with these powers
57:56of arrest in particular,
57:58whether it be
57:58on the road
57:58or whether there's
57:59a criminal offense
58:00and you're arresting,
58:01perhaps you were involved
58:02in a home search.
58:05There's no reasonable
58:06cause to suspect
58:08with reference
58:09to the exercise
58:11of those powers
58:12in some instance
58:13and then some instant
58:14it's just on suspect
58:15or suspicion.
58:16So the threshold
58:17that one has to meet,
58:18it varies with reference
58:20to this.
58:20So again,
58:22why I'm saying this,
58:23law enforcement
58:24must appreciate
58:26the threshold
58:27that must be met
58:28before they exercise
58:29in these powers.
58:30Thank you so much,
58:30Mr. Ali.
58:31Of course,
58:31next week,
58:31Wednesday,
58:32we'll dive in
58:32a little bit more on that.
58:33We get ready for news
58:34coming up next.
58:35TNC,
58:36have a blessed one.
58:36Same time,
58:37same place tomorrow.
58:38Be safe.
58:39We're out.
58:43We're out.
58:44We're out.
58:48We're out.
58:49We're out.
58:51We're out.
58:52We're out.
58:53We're out.
58:55We're out.
58:55We're out.
58:55We're out.
58:56We're out.
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