- 1 day ago
Former charismatic worship guitarist Christian Arce joins John Collins to discuss the spread of American revival culture into Costa Rica, the influence of worship music, and how doctrines connected to the Healing Revival, William Branham, dominion theology, spiritual warfare, and the New Apostolic Reformation shaped modern evangelical culture in Latin America.
Christian describes his years inside Costa Rican charismatic worship culture, how emotional worship experiences often replaced biblical examination, and how phrases like “a move of God” became tied to replication, hype, prophetic authority, and church control. The discussion traces the historical waves of Protestant and Pentecostal influence in Costa Rica, including missionaries, Bible institutes, radio ministries, and imported American revival movements.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
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Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
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Christian describes his years inside Costa Rican charismatic worship culture, how emotional worship experiences often replaced biblical examination, and how phrases like “a move of God” became tied to replication, hype, prophetic authority, and church control. The discussion traces the historical waves of Protestant and Pentecostal influence in Costa Rica, including missionaries, Bible institutes, radio ministries, and imported American revival movements.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Christian Arce, former
00:46guitar player for a worship band in the charismatic movement.
00:49Christian, it's good to have you on and to share your story about being a worship leader
00:54and in the worship band and guitar player, so we'll immediately connect.
00:59And you're from Costa Rica, so I'm probably going to pound you with questions because
01:03I'm fascinated with this invasion of the charismatic movement, so we'll get into that some, but
01:08maybe you could start by just telling everybody a little bit about yourself.
01:12Thank you, John.
01:13And yeah, I'm really happy to be here at the podcast.
01:16I didn't thought I was going to be ever in one of your episodes, but I think it's a wonderful
01:23space, and there's wonderful content for people seeking the truth and understanding where
01:30the doctrine they live come from.
01:33Now, as part of my background, yes, I'm Costa Rican, and I've been involved in Christianity
01:43for, uh, since I was around 22, uh, been playing guitar for a couple of bands, mainly for one
01:53specific where I, uh, played for maybe 13, 12 years, something around that, uh, until I,
02:01I, you know, just come to a hard stop and hit a wall of, hey, what am I really believing
02:08in?
02:09And, uh, started doing the research, I was, uh, you know, I did the right path, what you
02:15could call a right path within church, and, uh, I went to, uh, Bible Institute, and I was,
02:22uh, part of the leadership, youth leadership at that time.
02:25I'm no longer that young to be considered a youth leader, I guess, but I was part of,
02:32of the entire thing and lived and breathed that for many years.
02:36So that's pretty much, uh, it's just a hint of my background and yeah, yeah, yeah, just happy to
02:42be here sharing, uh, this, this time with you.
02:46I'm happy you're here too.
02:47I have, uh, I've mentioned it in email, but I'll tell the audience, I have a lot of friends who
02:52are
02:52in Costa Rica and, um, I'm always interested whenever I start talking to them about how things
02:58progress because it is quite different than here, but at the same time, it's quite the same as here.
03:03And there's a reason why the connections are the same.
03:06Um, so I, like I said, I'm probably going to grill you about that, but being a worship leader
03:11in the, in the band isn't, to anybody who's a musician who's done it, it's something that is
03:18very powerful and fulfilling and at the same time can be used incorrectly.
03:23In my opinion, there are techniques and things that you can do that just aren't right.
03:28And I, I never really thought about it until I started critically thinking about the doctrines
03:35and I was listening to a sermon and I heard something that just, it wasn't quite right.
03:39Now we had escaped the, you know, the Branhamite religion, the, the revival culture.
03:45I was in something that wasn't revival culture and I heard something that just wasn't right.
03:49And I went back to read the passage that he was referring to the minister, read it in context,
03:55and then started exploring the ancient cultures as it related to that context.
04:01And sure enough, I found, well, that's just not quite right.
04:05But at the same time I was faced with the problem.
04:08It wasn't right, but what he said was good.
04:11And what do I do with this?
04:13And I'm critically thinking I'm trying to learn from it.
04:16Well, then that, that, that blew up into a whole avenue of theological research and that
04:22theological research carried forward into the music.
04:26And for me, the music was so wrong, man, we were saying things that were so wrong, but
04:33we would repeat it over and over, especially in the choruses.
04:36We would repeat phrases.
04:38And I was thinking about it.
04:39You know, it gets stuck in your head.
04:41And so a lot of times what I was facing was I was examining theology, but I was examining
04:47it because of the music that was stuck in my head.
04:51Yeah.
04:51And I thought the music was right.
04:53And I go to the text and no, I, I was misled again.
04:57Yeah.
04:58I totally agree with you.
04:59I, I can say, and I'm not the first person saying this definitely, but there's a generation
05:05that learned how to connect with God through music.
05:08Not that it's a bad thing in itself, but the problem is that once you understand the theology
05:16that is behind what we're singing, that's the, that's the real big issue.
05:22And the problem that we've been creating as worship musicians in the last few generations is that
05:30people are connecting to the worship music and to the lyrics more than the word of God.
05:36And that's really dangerous, especially when you start hearing lyrics about dominion and we're
05:43going to overcome the city and we're going to do this thing for God.
05:48And I'm saying, uh, okay, now, where does that come from?
05:52And of course that, that will lead you to, uh, to the new apostolic reformation and the, to the entire
06:01theology that they believe.
06:03Uh, but that's one of the biggest dangers that there is nobody's critically examining
06:11the doctrine behind the music.
06:13And that's a big, big issue, especially in younger generations, because worship music used
06:19to be more biblical, uh, in past generations.
06:23Not that, you know, not that anymore.
06:27Yeah.
06:28So it's, it's been a complicated context, uh, especially in Latin American music.
06:33When do you start thinking about a lot of the messages and where is that coming from?
06:39Absolutely.
06:40So I'm, I'll ask the first question and, and I'll try to understand because I've been
06:45trying to piece this history together.
06:47When you look at the new apostolic reformation, which you mentioned and their dominionist theme,
06:52their idea that they're going to come in and conquer.
06:56I looked at that whenever I first understood what was going on.
07:00I happened to be in Mexico at the time and we were taking our, I think it was our first
07:06real vacation where we went and got to explore some of the sites in Mexico, the archeological
07:12sites.
07:12And we had this excellent tour guide who was telling us about the culture and the religion
07:17and how the religion had merged with the culture.
07:20And he was explaining, you know, the Spanish Inquisition, all of these things.
07:25And he was saying that basically the, the, uh, Spanish, during the Spanish Inquisition,
07:31they came in, they forcibly converted the people.
07:33And what they ended up with was this weird mess where you had shamanism that was mixed with
07:38Christianity and the two merged together.
07:41And they would, I even saw these things, man.
07:44They would make little statues of the shaman gods with Jesus as the 12 disciples were shamans
07:51and Jesus.
07:52And I'm looking at this thinking, scratching my head thinking, how can that be Christianity?
07:56And in the end, it's really not Christianity.
07:59When you mix it, it's not.
08:01But I got to thinking about the broader picture.
08:04In the religion that I came out of, it was quite different than today's New Apostolic
08:10Reformation.
08:11But there was this, this thought that if you could forcibly convert people to your belief
08:17set, they could go to heaven and all other Christians going to hell.
08:20That's really what we believed.
08:21And that evolved into the New Apostolic Reformations.
08:25Go in, conquer, conquer the government, conquer the seven mountains.
08:30And I was thinking, as the tour guide was talking about the Spanish Inquisition, how similar
08:35that is, and how wrong that is.
08:39Yeah, I totally agree with you.
08:41I think in Costa Rica, it's pretty much the same thing.
08:48To be able to understand the reality of Costa Rica now, how evangelicalism is now, you have
08:56to go back a lot.
08:59And you really need to understand, goodness, my goodness, it's like Dowie, Parham, Azusa Street,
09:08and the entire thing that developed that system that was imported here, basically.
09:16In Costa Rica was really interesting.
09:20Because there was this, of course, we were colonized by the Spanish religion, which is Roman Catholicism.
09:30That's no doubt there.
09:32And pretty much the same thing happened here.
09:36In order for the local indigenous people to keep their beliefs and do it somewhat legally without
09:46the risk of being killed, they would have to syncretize the entire thing.
09:51So that's one part.
09:53Of course, there are very reminiscent things nowadays happening with witchcraft and things
10:03that happens pretty much in every country in Latin America.
10:05To this day, there was a second wave that was missionaries coming from England and United
10:13States.
10:14First, of course, from England, and they were Methodist, by the most part, Adventists, and
10:24they were centered around the Limon area.
10:29To this day, there's a lot of churches.
10:31I have a few friends over there, and there's a lot of Adventist churches there and Methodist,
10:38Wesleyan churches.
10:42Then, what happened was quite interesting because they started to develop their missionary work
10:50there.
10:51And as time went on, the new wave of missionaries came.
10:59What I called, personally, the new wave of missionaries.
11:03specific names that will be known for Costa Ricans, like the Strachan ministries.
11:11Just a couple of North American, a North American couple that came first in Argentina and then
11:20in Costa Rica.
11:21They developed a lot of things here, churches, radio stations, colleges, and most notably, the Seminario
11:33Biblico Latino Americano, which is basically a Bible seminary.
11:37And I'm pretty sure it's going to ring a lot of bells with you because it sounds much similar
11:48similar to the Oral Roberts University.
11:51It was the house, the theology house, for the rest of the things to come in Costa Rica.
11:58So it was a before and after to me.
12:01It was a historical moment when the theology changed from really conservative group of people that were based
12:10in moral conduct and how the fruit of the Spirit of God within you was evident through your moral
12:18conduct to the rest of the mess that we know nowadays.
12:25So it's a really interesting story after that new wave with the Strachan and people like Euclides Padilla, who was
12:35the
12:35first like major pastor here that that was like the before and after with a move of the Holy Spirit
12:44and things
12:45like that.
12:46There was a pivotal moment there.
12:48So once you understand where they came from, what happened, and, you know, you can start to see where things
12:57started to shift.
12:59And the agendas really started to shift.
13:02That's really the big thing for me.
13:03I didn't really think about the differences of Protestant Christianity until I left Branhamism because we were in this mindset.
13:11It's us and everybody else, and that's just how it was.
13:14But there's different flavors of Protestantism, and like Catholicism, you have different flavors of Catholicism.
13:22Some of them are extremist and some of them are quite benign in both camps, you know, both sides of
13:27the aisle.
13:28And I started to – I first came across this thought.
13:31I was listening to a minister, and he was talking about how he would evangelize when he was on a
13:37trip.
13:37And his method, which I found quite offensive, he said he would be sitting on a bus or some, you
13:43know, taxi or whatever next to other people and look at them straight in the eye and say, did you
13:48know you're going to hell?
13:50Oh, yeah.
13:50And start his introduction like this, and I'm sitting here thinking, that's – you know, you catch more flies with
13:56honey.
13:56That's not how you do this, man.
13:58But it would – and he proudly boasted, we are an evangelical church.
14:04If you're not in their face, if you're not converting them, that's how his mindset was.
14:09And I stopped and thought about it.
14:10But I – at that point in time, I considered myself evangelical, but I didn't know what that meant, and
14:17I did not know that it meant that you must be like this.
14:21And I have a word for people like this now, which I can't use on the program, but it's not
14:27a good way to be to people.
14:29I'll just say it like that.
14:31There's ways that you can treat people with respect.
14:34And so you've got camps that are like that.
14:37And there's – like I said, there's different levels that go off into extremism, et cetera.
14:42And then on the other side of the aisle, you have people that are peacefully converting.
14:46We're going to live our lives in such a good way that you want to live your life like us,
14:50and we are living our life the Christian saintly way.
14:54And that goes off into extremes.
14:56You've got camps where they – you know, it's basically a works-based religion.
15:00So you can go extremes on both sides of the aisle.
15:03What I found out was when evangelical Christianity exploded in the United States with the flavor of the minister, which
15:12I mentioned, all through the United States, and they merged with an agenda with the government.
15:19The governmental agenda with the evangelicals was targeting South America for whatever reason.
15:27And you can find some weird stuff, especially if you look at, you know, Operation Condor and different government programs
15:34that were going to South America, right?
15:36Even birth control at some point.
15:39Absolutely.
15:39So you had these agendas, and that's whenever it really came in.
15:44And it was like this – I know you talked about the different waves of Protestant Christianity coming in.
15:50Well, this one was an explosive wave, and it wasn't from – in my opinion, it wasn't from the good
15:55guys.
15:56This would be the more extreme side of the Protestantism.
16:00I believe that's so, and that's one of the reasons that I say always that this was imported directly from
16:08the United States.
16:10And let me – let me, first of all, be very open with this.
16:15I have friends within many denominations.
16:18And I think that that's a perfectly doable thing, because you can learn pretty much from everyone.
16:28If you're not agreeing with challenging your faith and going and, you know, just go do the homework and do
16:38it by yourself and in prayer and reading the scripture.
16:41If you're not willing to do that, it means that you think that pretty much you have the entire thing
16:46understood, which it's not.
16:51And I don't know about you, but I do not have a big enough brain to understand God's entirety, his
16:58entirety.
17:00I can't.
17:01I just can't.
17:02And I don't have a big enough head to understand the Bible in its entirety.
17:07So, what it means to me is that it's a journey of faith.
17:11I have to be learning constantly, because it was pretty much what happened to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the
17:19patriarchs and everyone.
17:20It was a journey where God was constantly talking and giving directions and pretty much teaching them.
17:28That's okay.
17:30And with that mindset, I will say that we've had it all, man.
17:38Costa Rica was really, really a good case of study.
17:45I don't know if, how familiar are you with this pastor, which in, if you translate that to English, it
17:58would be like badly given, which kind of give you a hint.
18:03It's a pretty big church in Miami.
18:10Miami, so, um, they have like this profits and stuff and like this things that they have offer covering like
18:20prophetic covering for, for, it's pretty much a disciple thing.
18:24A lot of thing came from that, from the modern, to modern, modern evangelicalism.
18:30But prior to that, if, if you go back a little, if you trade this to this track and, and
18:37Euclidus Padilla and, and all of them, pretty much what happened was the, the entire, you know, Azusa Street Revival
18:48thing and the agenda and the new apostolic reformation and the Kansas prophets and all those things that were happening
18:54on United States were being imported to Costa Rica.
18:57Now, with that in mind, you have to think like, you're going to have to connect the dots.
19:05The Strachan came here and opened a radio station.
19:11Later on, they founded a Bible Institute.
19:16They created a hospital as well, and they built the church, which is the Templo Bíblico.
19:25They were not the builders of the church, of course, but they had a big part there.
19:29So, the way you start to shape how Christianity looks in Costa Rica, it's pretty much based on them.
19:39And to give, to give you an example, Euclidus Padilla had a fierce opposition from the conservative pastors and members
19:47of the church when we came, when he came to, to Templo Bíblico because of the new, new move of
19:55the Holy Spirit.
19:56And to give you a perspective on that, early Christians in Costa Rica were considered heretics and they were like
20:05this, they're weird and they're falling off and they're speaking in tongues and they're not, we don't want to have
20:10anything to do with that.
20:12Now, that's part, again, as you said, part of the agenda.
20:15And it's really hard to condense so much, so many years of history in such a, in just one episode.
20:24But so you have an idea.
20:27It's pretty much the same thing that happened on the Sons of State happened here a few years later.
20:34So, it's pretty much the same story.
20:36Yeah, I would agree.
20:37There's so many different flavors of influence that I try to map it out in my head because you can't
20:45really draw diagrams.
20:46There's just too many different themes.
20:48And one of the points that you made, how can a human know God?
20:52You know, as long as you live your life, your brain is not big enough to comprehend something so complex.
20:58Well, the history of the movement is much the same way.
21:02The history of Christianity is much the same way.
21:04And I've come to read and understand the Bible much like that.
21:08The humans that are being spoken about, many of them, you know, they're coming, they're learning and growing as they
21:17age.
21:17They're learning more about God as they age.
21:20Take the ancient Israelites.
21:21During that era, they, you know, started out much like many of the other pagan religions, and they kind of
21:28evolved into a better thing.
21:30You read the Book of Kings, you can see it very clearly.
21:33They fall into idolatry, then they get up.
21:35They fall back, they get up.
21:37And then fast forward to, you know, the New Testament.
21:40Paul is writing the letters, the church is falling, and then he's trying to correct, falling and trying to correct.
21:44Well, humans just don't really have the capacity to do it, because to understand, you have to know many aspects,
21:53and the brain can only hold so much.
21:56With my history, I would love to be an expert in every single aspect of this, and I can't.
22:01So I bring other people on, you know, to kind of build and grow this.
22:04One of the things that makes that complicated is when you're trying to understand how, like, I want to learn
22:12how Branhamism spread into South America, for example.
22:16Whenever I do this, I see so many different streams coming in, and you have to understand all of them,
22:22because Branham, I think you mentioned it this way in your email, Branham directly influenced some and indirectly influenced others.
22:30Well, when you broaden this to the scope of the healing revival movement, and you look at, like, Voice of
22:37Healing, all of the thousands of ministers who are – many of them had a South American agenda, which is
22:42funny.
22:43When you broaden it to that scope, how can you learn how it happened when you have to study each
22:48person, what they believe, their doctrines, their history, their flaws, their strengths?
22:53And that's why I'm very happy to have people like you who can share this information with me.
22:59Yeah, the Branham, the William Branham part of this, it's really interesting to understand.
23:07First of all, you have to understand William Branham as the historical figure that he was, and how big of
23:15an influence he was for the evangelical community worldwide, especially in North America, and, of course, Germany, and Europe, and
23:23the entire thing, but mainly in the United States.
23:28Now, I've got to tell you this because, yes, there is official presence of William Branham's church in Costa Rica.
23:39In fact, when I started to find out a little bit more information of them, I found out that there's
23:47a tavernacle, like, 10 minutes away from my house.
23:49I was not aware of that.
23:51And it's been there for a couple of locations in Costa Rica, really close to my house, but for 20
23:58years.
23:59And they're a fairly good-sized community of families that are very open on that.
24:07Of course, they will not say right away that, you know, they're Branhamism, but they're there, and you would think
24:14it's another Christian church.
24:17Now, there is presence, of course, official presence, and recordings and stuff.
24:24The thing is that you have to understand the influence that Branham had over an entire generation to understand that
24:32most of the things that we see in church today come from him.
24:37And, of course, from British Israelism and Dawi and Parham and Zusa Street, but you cannot understand where we are
24:48if you don't study what Branham means to that.
24:52Now, when I say indirect influence is because, obviously, the entire theology, the Seven Mountains and the Dominion theology have
25:05influenced what they call now spiritual warfare in Costa Rica and the prophetic culture and the entire thing.
25:13Now, that's the key.
25:18If you understand the origins of those doctrines, you will understand something that became apparent to me.
25:27I was young and naive and didn't thought much about it because I came to church and it was like,
25:34okay, well, I'm in church.
25:35That's it.
25:36That's how you do a Christian life.
25:39And it was a normalized culture by then.
25:42The big job that Branham did for Costa Rica, or as far as for Costa Rican consequences, was normalizing a
25:52culture.
25:54And it was step by step through generations until it got to a pretty invasive point where it was imported.
26:02It was a common culture in North America, and then it was exported to Costa Rica.
26:07So, you can see all kinds of things and how the people do worship and how the people disciple their
26:17disciples and how church goes.
26:22Now, there's plenty of things that we do on a daily basis that have its origin on that.
26:31The spiritual warfare and how important it is the word of a prophet for you to do something or to
26:39not do something.
26:40Or how guided by somebody else you are, even though you're not aware of it, how you carry on your
26:49relationships and how you behave in certain ways and avoid certain situations.
26:56And one of the thing is that this culture of I'm right and you're wrong, like you were saying at
27:04the beginning, and I'm very familiar with that.
27:09Even now, I remember when I was talking to somebody and in the back of my head, it was like,
27:14okay, yeah, but remember that you have the truth.
27:17You know what it is, that person's wrong, and don't discuss, don't get into nonsense discussions, but eventually you're going
27:27to convince them that you're right, and they will be right.
27:31And therefore, they will be saved, which is nonsense.
27:35I mean, like, I don't have any other word to describe that.
27:40It's just nonsense.
27:41Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
27:50reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
27:55You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
28:02On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
28:10John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
28:16You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
28:23If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
28:29top.
28:29And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
28:35watching.
28:36On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
28:41So I'm curious, just to prove a point, I'm going to ask a question, and I'm going to try my
28:47best not to lead you here.
28:48Whenever we're talking about a movement in the United States, and you're in one of the different varying flavors of
28:56Protestantism,
28:58when you hear the phrase, a move of God, it means different things to different people.
29:03And in the United States, I can tell you're laughing, you know where I'm headed with this.
29:07I want to know how Costa Rica has evolved.
29:11What does it mean in Costa Rica when you say a move of God is happening in the church?
29:15Well, pretty much experiential Christianity at any specific church, because we're seeing something or we're thinking that we're seeing something
29:28that looks godly for the most part.
29:32The problem is that at some point we stopped looking for doctrine and scripture, and we shifted to I'm experiencing
29:47something, and I'm feeling something, and it's an emotional thing, and it's an experience that feels godly.
29:55Once you get the people to that point, you can throw anything that sounds somewhat Christian or biblical, and they
30:07will believe it.
30:09So the move of God could be anything.
30:12And to give you an example, and of course I'm not going to say any names, but I remember a
30:18few years ago, I was playing guitar in one of the bands that I used to play with.
30:24We had three bands, and we got to a rehearsal one day, and they were doing some massive renovation on
30:32the altar, and I said, well, what is this?
30:36I mean, what are they doing?
30:37And they had built like a little room for the musicians to play, and the argument was, well, people need
30:48to see God on the altar,
30:50not the musicians, because this is a flashy thing, and they're going to pay attention to the musicians, and we
30:57don't want that.
30:57We want people to be centered around God, more or less.
31:02I'm paraphrasing.
31:03Just not to get boring with the entire explanation that I got that day, but it was pretty much like
31:10that.
31:10And I said, my goodness, well, it's okay for me.
31:15I don't mind if I'm seeing or not.
31:19It's okay.
31:20For me, it was even better, because nobody was watching me play.
31:24So the band was in a room separated from the altar.
31:29We were playing there with headphones and everything, so nobody was watching us.
31:35It was okay.
31:37What I learned after that was, and here's an interesting story, something happened, and the pastor of this church went
31:49to another church where there was a big move of the Spirit,
31:55and healing was happening, and they were praying for the people, and people were getting healed, and they were all
32:03hyped up.
32:04And the answer to that was, we have to do the same thing in our church, because that's the move
32:12of the Holy Spirit now.
32:14And when I found out, I was so mad, because to me, if God is doing something in a church,
32:22in any community of believers, that's what God wants to do there.
32:29And if you take that and try to replicate it in your local church, what you're effectively doing is treating
32:38God as it was a thing that you can replicate by your own means.
32:43I was really, really, really mad with that, to the point that I was very open about it, and I
32:50was saying, I don't believe that we should be doing this thing just because somebody else is doing it.
32:56Of course, they would, you know, they got mad at me, and I'm not going to tell you the entire
33:01thing, but that's how it looks in Costa Rica right now.
33:06And I'm pretty sure there's going to be a lot of people in the comments section saying that it is
33:12like that.
33:13But it's really sad, because the move of the Holy Spirit nowadays, it's whatever is working somewhere that we think
33:21we can replicate here.
33:24That's a really, really sad thing to say, but unfortunately, that's the reality.
33:29I was hoping you would answer me differently, but I knew that you would answer me like that.
33:34Because that's, I mean, that's really what happened.
33:36It was an invasion.
33:37It was like a Spanish Inquisition.
33:39They changed it.
33:40And in my opinion, as I said, how can a human understand a being like God?
33:46You cannot do it, right?
33:48But the movement has put God in a box.
33:51Here's what God looks like.
33:53We'll put a wrapper on it, give it to you.
33:55Your church can have it.
33:56Now you know what God looks like to us.
33:58Well, that's what God looks like to us.
34:00They've put it in a box, right?
34:02And I'm trying to picture an almighty being being shoved into a box and packaged up like this.
34:07It just doesn't work.
34:08But that's how it was packaged.
34:10You had the, you know, you had this healing revival movement came in, and with it, with
34:18this quote-unquote move of God came all of these other things that evolved into the mess
34:22that you see today.
34:23You had the restoration aspect.
34:26We are coming to restore the church so that we can put God in the box for you, too.
34:31And you, too, can have God in a box, right?
34:33We're going to restore the church, which means that all of your churches, they're no good.
34:38We're going to restore it our way.
34:40We're going to do it the American way.
34:42And I look at some of the mess in America, and I just think, oh, my gosh.
34:45I have an interesting example of this that I found on your website.
34:50It's pretty much the only direct reference to Costa Rica that I found about Branham, and it's a letter that
35:00was sent to Billy Paul.
35:04And I'm going to paraphrase that it was about a man that went to a convention in the United States,
35:12and the letter said something like this person came to the conference because he was told twice by God that
35:23he needed to go to the States in order for him to get new wine.
35:29Like, if God's going to give you something, you don't have to go to the States for somebody to give
35:38you new wine.
35:40And you have to understand that that specific thing happened during the 90s, early 90s.
35:45Now, the context of that was many generations of altering the culture to a point where that would sound normal,
35:55because if you go back in time and tell somebody from the early Christians that came to Costa Rica, hey,
36:03I need to go to the States to get new wine so we can have a new doctrine here and
36:07do this thing that they're doing there.
36:10They will write, just, you're crazy, I mean, what do you mean with new wine, you have to go somewhere
36:18else, go pray and see what's God's will for you now at this point, you don't need anyone, right?
36:26So, when you take into consideration that Costa Rica has many radio stations and you have TV stations that are
36:37famous in Latin America exporting content that we've been given many, many, many years of prophets and, you know, pastors,
36:50famous pastors and big ministries day and night, 24 hours.
36:56So, you know, you know, you know, you know, sowing a seed and you're going to be able to overcome
37:00this and the entire thing for many generations, the culture has shifted to a point where I heard this from
37:09an author and I think it's great.
37:14You're going to like it.
37:16You're going to like it.
37:16It's that he was saying that Christianity and church, local churches used to revolve around the person of God.
37:28But now church is everything.
37:31Everything's around the church itself.
37:33So it's not Christianity anymore.
37:35It's churchianity.
37:37Yeah.
37:39It's that's right.
37:40It's a really good representation.
37:42It's it's not around the word of God anymore.
37:45It's whatever we believe God is doing and whatever we believe God is doing is based on whatever we feel.
37:53So if you throw any kind of Christian jargon on it, it will it will be approved by any.
38:02Yeah.
38:04Which leads me exactly to the next question.
38:06I'm glad you found the Billy Paul letter.
38:09I remember reading that years ago.
38:11I came across that.
38:13It raises a question for me that doesn't really apply just to randomism.
38:19I'll ask it like this.
38:20I want to know what it's like for a new convert to Christianity in Costa Rica after this mess happened.
38:27So picture myself.
38:28I'm a new convert.
38:29I know nothing about Jesus.
38:31And I go to one of these churches and I hear God will send the Holy Spirit and he will
38:36be your comforter and he will be your guide and he will lead us into all truth.
38:40And you read it in the Bible and that's what it says.
38:42But you got to go to America to get your new wine so that we can do it.
38:47God will send the Holy Spirit and he will be inside of you and he will bring you into all
38:52truth.
38:53But you got to go listen to this prophet in America to do it.
38:57I mean, you know, you know, I'm headed with this, right?
39:00To a new convert.
39:01What does that mean?
39:02How can you even have a new convert to Christianity when they think, okay, the Holy Spirit's living in me,
39:08but it's just this thing I have.
39:11It does nothing for me.
39:12I've got to go to this human in this other continent.
39:15What do you do with this, right?
39:18I mean, they will not tell you right away that.
39:21The first thing is, well, you got to be saved.
39:26You have to say the famous prayer, the salvation prayer.
39:33You have to say that and then you have to be discipled.
39:38And then that sets the foundation for the rest of things.
39:44Because if you're a new convert in any of the churches, it's pretty much like randomism.
39:52They will not tell you.
39:53Okay.
39:53So here's this person that was sent by God.
39:56Then the spirit of Elijah.
39:58And they will not tell you that they will prepare you to hear it.
40:03That's the same thing in Costa Rica.
40:05They will prepare you to that.
40:09So there's a lot of honest people looking for God that go to church because that's what you do when
40:15you try to look for God.
40:17You find out somebody else who knows better than you because you have no idea.
40:23And you open your heart and whatever they tell you, you believe it.
40:28Because that's the only thing that you know about God.
40:31You probably have never read the Bible.
40:33You've never have any deep contact with anyone, you know, any Christian person.
40:40But they will prepare you to that.
40:43So once the foundation is set, like, okay, so this is how you do church, then the whole thing starts.
40:51You've got to be discipled.
40:52And in order for you to get discipled, you need to understand how it worked.
40:58So here's this person who's your leader, who's going to teach you how to get into a good relationship with
41:06God, and so on.
41:08And it's a copy-paste from every movement we've been studying since Azusa Street, DAWI and everything, Science City.
41:18I'm pretty much surprised that we haven't had Colonia Dignidad in Costa Rica.
41:24Yeah, and I'm surprised that the information is now spreading enough where people, like you, even know that Colonia Dignidad
41:31was a thing.
41:32And for those who are listening and are unaware, go look it up on Wikipedia.
41:36I won't tell you on here, but it's fascinating, scary history that is tied back to the movement.
41:41But there was this political, religious invasion.
41:44And they were altering theology in such a way that my heart goes out to the new converts because I'm
41:53thinking, putting myself in their shoes, what would I do?
41:57What would I do if I was told this?
41:59First off, I think it would be much like in Branhamism.
42:02There's this thing that's happening in Branhamism right now after, you know, William Branham died 1965.
42:09Well, one of his sons died recently.
42:11My grandfather left the church.
42:13And everybody sees it as, quote, a move of God.
42:16And a move of God in many of these cultures means simply, things are changing.
42:22What does it mean?
42:23And because everything, you can't look at anything like it happened just because it happened.
42:29It had to have happened because God is doing something, my brother.
42:32Well, there's this sudden migration from all over the world to here as though here in this Jeffersonville, Indiana area,
42:39that's where God is.
42:40And so they put God in a regional box, which is really funny if you think about it.
42:47So I'm a new convert.
42:49I'm in Costa Rica.
42:51And I learned that I can go and have direct access to the apostles or the prophets in the United
42:58States.
42:59Why would I live in Costa Rica?
43:01If I were living back in the olden days and the Apostle Paul was living, I would want to go
43:08hear the Apostle Paul directly.
43:10This is the messenger from God.
43:12This is the guy that I want to hear, right?
43:13And so that's where I would travel.
43:15And I would leave everything behind.
43:17So I'm looking from a country, how do you do this?
43:20How do you convert somebody and keep them in Costa Rica?
43:24Well, let me tell you something that's quite funny.
43:27I remember when I came to church, I was like, okay, well, I'm going to church every time they have
43:34a service.
43:34So it was Thursdays and Sundays.
43:41Pretty much all I had.
43:43But then something happened.
43:45I started to, you know, know people and meet people.
43:49And they were telling me, hey, did you watch this YouTube teaching of so and so?
43:56And I started to consume more and more and more content, Christian content from different parts of the world.
44:04I knew English back then.
44:07So I was consuming all kinds of, you know, I almost, by the way, I almost got into IHOP.
44:13I remember specifically the day that I was requesting information on how to apply for that.
44:22But Costa Rica has an interesting thing.
44:25There's a lot of people who speaks English, good enough for them to hear any kind of teaching.
44:34They will consume anything that this Christian from United States, from other pastors in Latin America, pretty much anywhere in
44:44the world.
44:44But they will keep going to the local church because they leave.
44:48They will feel like this burden of I'm not going to church.
44:53I need to be part of this community because, you know, there's my friends and there's the people that I
44:59know and my leader.
45:01What's going to say my leader if I'm not going to if I'm not in church this Sunday?
45:06I got to serve.
45:08I got to be involved in either a worship group or a missionary group or I have to have a
45:15group in my house that study the Bible.
45:17And it's this thing of high control groups that is so common that it doesn't matter if you're hearing something.
45:26I remember my worship pastor once told me something that was quite interesting.
45:34I said, hey, a few friends from a different church told me that if I could play with them this
45:44Saturday.
45:45And I said, yes, I'm going to just join them.
45:48And he immediately told me, what do they have that we don't?
45:56And my answer was like nothing.
46:00They're just friends.
46:01We're going to worship together.
46:03It's not like I'm leaving you to joining them.
46:06But that's the perception they have.
46:08It's a high control group.
46:10And whether they want to accept it or not, they are a high control group.
46:15And we can talk about radicalization and why is that important, an important concept to understand.
46:24Have you heard about David Saavedra?
46:28That sounds really familiar, but I can't place where I remember that.
46:32This guy is from Spain.
46:34Now, he was he is an ex neo-Nazi.
46:40He left this radical thinking and now is in a quest for telling people what is to radicalize a person.
46:50And he told something that I said, this is something that Christians should know.
46:58So he said, once a person has been radicalized, you cannot separate the identity of a person of the radicalization
47:09process, because the identity of the person becomes this radical element.
47:13You cannot separate the person from the ideology.
47:19And in order for you to get out of that, you have to be conscious that you're going to leave
47:26your family, your friends and the entire universe that, you know, your entire world.
47:33So that's one of the reasons it's so hard to get out of church nowadays.
47:38Now, going back to your question, what keeps you in your local church?
47:44Is it the relationship that you have?
47:47That's not a bad thing.
47:49But is it the high level of control that you're being on that takes your ability to make decisions for
48:00yourself?
48:03So that's a pretty common thing here in Costa Rica as well.
48:06If you're going to do something, you have to ask somebody from your leadership group.
48:13Hey, doing this.
48:15What do you think if I do this?
48:17What do you think if you do that?
48:20The answer will most probably be, have you prayed about it?
48:25But here's what you have to do.
48:29Have you prayed about it?
48:30But have you think about this?
48:32Have you prayed?
48:33Have you read the Bible and ask for God for direction?
48:36But hey, here's this thing.
48:39So, it's go ask God, but ask us first too.
48:46So, it's a control group at the end.
48:49I can't tell you how many times I've heard somebody tell me that.
48:52I'll ask them something that is very non-religious.
48:55I've got to go pray about that, brother.
48:57And I'm thinking, well, what's there to pray about?
49:00It's like a yes or no question I'm asking you, man.
49:03People, they get caught up into that.
49:05And to your point, it is a high control group because they have made it an us versus them.
49:12In Branhamism, we were told that the Branham Tabernacle had literal angels lining the walls of the building.
49:19And I remember this guy saying, why would we go to any other church?
49:23There's angels, actual angels in the walls.
49:26And I was a kid when I heard this and I was like, I've never seen one.
49:29That's a little odd.
49:33If we're talking about nowadays culture, you pretty much ask God to send angels to whatever you want.
49:42I mean, you can say to God, pray to God, hey, I got it.
49:46Please send angels for my vehicle so I don't have an accident.
49:51And also keep some angels in my house while I'm not here so I can be sure that nobody's going
49:59to get into a house and rob me.
50:01And please send angels to my office so nothing bad come in.
50:05And please, come on.
50:09It's weird.
50:10And when you study that, you go back again to doctrines that were not in the Bible,
50:16that were normalized as a culture by the generations and generations of evangelicalism that tells you that that's okay.
50:25That's how the Bible works.
50:27That's how God works.
50:28And I'm still trying to find, you know, in what part of the Bible I have the authority of calling
50:39angels to guard me like a host of angels or I don't know.
50:44I mean, it's so weird to hear that.
50:47Darrell Bock It is, man.
50:49And it all comes back down to they're putting God in a box.
50:52And I'm picturing in my mind, I'm picturing these ministers saying, God is in our box.
50:58You go to the other church down the street, God's not in their box.
51:02But you go down the street and the other minister's doing the same thing.
51:05God's not.
51:06It's like these competing boxes.
51:08And in the end, what do you gain from this, man?
51:12It's not something that you can even call Christianity, but that's what they're doing.
51:16And it goes back to what you said about indirect influence.
51:20When you look at what Branham created, and it wasn't just Branham, I can't blame him entirely, but all of
51:27these men and women who were creating a movement where you could control the people because you did not want
51:35them to join a mainstream church.
51:37That was what this restoration movement was.
51:40They believed the church was apostate.
51:42We can't let the normal person go there.
51:44But at the same time, the normal person does not know theology enough to know right or wrong.
51:50So we're going to control them and keep them in our church.
51:53And that's what they did.
51:54Right or wrong, yeah, I can go back in history and I can see flaws with some of the churches.
51:59So I understand why they did it.
52:02But at the same time, it's wrong to control people.
52:04That's not how you do things.
52:06Well, that evolved, and it evolved continuously.
52:09You look in the 80s, it's evolving again with the shepherding movement.
52:12Go fast forward to IHOPKC, and then look what that birthed, the New Apostolic Reformation.
52:18Now it's like that original theme is on steroids, and it spread into Costa Rica.
52:24Yeah, yeah.
52:26It's amazing.
52:27When I found that there was a lot of people and a lot of YouTube channels and material around,
52:35this kind of topics, I immediately thought, well, there's three groups of people, basically.
52:44The people that are inside those churches, those religious institution, they don't want to hear about it.
52:52They won't look for that.
52:54And the only thing that you could do for them, it's press, it's pray, I guess, because that's pretty much
53:01all you can do.
53:03Then, you know, those are the convinced people that you're not going to do anything to prove them wrong.
53:10There's the awakened group that are people that are inside those organizations that are starting to see things that are
53:19weird.
53:21Those, this kind of content is really important for them because they will give them a chance to compare and
53:29evaluate.
53:29And the, the criticism that you lose inside of those groups is reawaken.
53:38So you start to see things in questioning, which is one of the first thing that you stop doing when
53:44you join a group like that.
53:45And then there's another group that is the people who left those organizations have no support whatsoever.
53:53Because once you leave, you have no friends, you have no family, you have no way to understand God and
54:00his, and the reality of what God is.
54:03Because everything has been skewed and, and, and change in, in, you know, you don't see God in the way
54:13that you should, but in the way somebody else told you to.
54:16So that's really important.
54:18And I, I, I really wanted to say that.
54:21And I think one of the worst thing that you could do, as you said, is put, put God in
54:29a box.
54:29And the second thing that I think it's equally, equally bad is to think that somebody else need to tell
54:39you what to think about God and what God is.
54:44The first thing that you have to do, if you want to have a good relationship with God is read
54:49the Bible and go and pray directly to him.
54:54The problem is that culture has made us think that we need another person to guide us.
55:01And I understand the fact that you can have a lot of benefits of talking to a person more mature
55:09than you and faith and understand their struggles and the things that they have learned.
55:15But again, it's a journey of faith.
55:18You learn step by step.
55:21I like to say, you know, to, to, to my wife, you know what?
55:28Every time I was wrong, I thought I was right.
55:32And that's pretty much how God has been dealing with me.
55:36It's like, okay, well, you, you think this is the right thing to do with me, but where did you
55:41get that?
55:42Right.
55:45Absolutely.
55:46It's great advice.
55:47Well, like I said in the email, I was really curious to know more about Costa Rica, and I'm very
55:52glad that you came on to do this.
55:53Thank you so much for sharing with me.
55:55You're very welcome, John.
55:57And yeah, if you want, we can talk anytime you want.
56:01I'm pretty sure we're going to find a lot of interesting stories that we're going to level on.
56:08And yeah, whenever you want to talk, just let me know.
56:12I'm glad we have this time.
56:15Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
56:18You can find us at william-branham.org.
56:21For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to
56:27the NAR.
56:28Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:30May 2.
56:49And we ground it in a dirigenium until you got here.
56:51That's wonderful.
56:59And we're going to enjoy the conversation.
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