- 2 days ago
John talks with Joel Crosby, a former member of Potter's House / The Door, about growing up inside a high-control religious environment, the pressure to conform, and the painful effects on family, friendships, dating, and mental health. Joel shares how pastoral authority, fear of losing salvation, and group loyalty shaped his childhood and young adult life.
Joel also explains how disturbing allegations, church leadership responses, and his own research led him to question the system he had trusted. The conversation explores Potter's House, Wayman Mitchell, Chuck Smith, Prescott, the New Apostolic Reformation, religious control, cult recovery, and how former members rebuild life after leaving.
00:00 Introduction
07:05 Joel Crosby’s Background In Potter’s House / The Door
13:12 Childhood, Bullying, And Trying To Fit In
20:25 Depression, Pastoral Counseling, And Mental Health
31:46 Family Division And The Cost Of Loyalty
39:18 Dating, Marriage Control, And Pastoral Interference
50:05 Abuse Allegations, Cover-Up Concerns, And Leaving
1:03:32 Rediscovering Friendship And Rebuilding Life
1:09:45 Writing Escape From The Potter’s House
1:15:18 Chuck Smith, Wayman Mitchell, And Movement Connections
1:22:10 Advice For People Still Inside
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Joel also explains how disturbing allegations, church leadership responses, and his own research led him to question the system he had trusted. The conversation explores Potter's House, Wayman Mitchell, Chuck Smith, Prescott, the New Apostolic Reformation, religious control, cult recovery, and how former members rebuild life after leaving.
00:00 Introduction
07:05 Joel Crosby’s Background In Potter’s House / The Door
13:12 Childhood, Bullying, And Trying To Fit In
20:25 Depression, Pastoral Counseling, And Mental Health
31:46 Family Division And The Cost Of Loyalty
39:18 Dating, Marriage Control, And Pastoral Interference
50:05 Abuse Allegations, Cover-Up Concerns, And Leaving
1:03:32 Rediscovering Friendship And Rebuilding Life
1:09:45 Writing Escape From The Potter’s House
1:15:18 Chuck Smith, Wayman Mitchell, And Movement Connections
1:22:10 Advice For People Still Inside
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my very special guest, Joel Crosby, former member of Potter's House.
00:47Joel, it's good to have you on and to share your story.
00:50We, you know, had your father, Dennis, on the podcast, and there are so many things for
00:56me to learn about Potter's House.
00:57I knew some of them, but not nearly to the extent that I'm learning from both you and
01:02your father.
01:03And interestingly, you're a researcher, too, which we'll get into that.
01:07But your research has crossed paths with my research through Chuck Smith.
01:12And there's this weird epicenter that really is unexplored.
01:19I think we need to explore it more.
01:21There, within the Pentecostal movement, there are these cities of epicenter that big explosions
01:28that lead to other groups, some of them destructive, some of them not, happen.
01:33One of them being Los Angeles, obviously, because of the Azusa Street Revival.
01:37But across the nation, and well, even the world, there are other epicenters where this happens.
01:43And there's a reason for it, which I'll get into in a bit.
01:45But one of the epicenters that I came across by sheer accident was Prescott, Arizona.
01:52In the Branham cult, when I was researching it, there's a very, very destructive group
01:57in Prescott, Arizona that was led by two of William Branham's most important key figures
02:04of the Branham movement.
02:05They were basically his scribes and had control of all of the recordings and distribution of
02:10recordings, et cetera.
02:12Well, they created a very, very destructive compound where there were just horrific things
02:18happening.
02:18I can't even say, or the social media and the other platforms will block me.
02:23But we did have a guest who came out of that destructive sect and talked about the torture,
02:29all of the other things, Deborah Thibodeau, if you want to go back and listen to it through
02:34the podcast series.
02:35But from Prescott, Arizona, there were other connections, one of them being the Foursquare
02:40Church.
02:41So I was digging into that, and that was long before I really understood the trail between
02:47Branhamism through Chuck Smith into John Wimber, et cetera, into the New Apostolic Reformation.
02:54I did not connect the dots closely enough to realize that Chuck Smith was big in Prescott,
03:01Arizona.
03:01There were ties, which I've talked about this briefly in one of the other podcasts, to Arizona,
03:09the state of Arizona.
03:10The, I think it was his sister-in-law was, anyway, a relative of his was a district head.
03:18And so she was able to help launch Chuck Smith's career.
03:24And I don't think Chuck Smith would have became who he was without really all of that background.
03:30He was well-recognized.
03:31Well, in Prescott, Arizona, there were things happening.
03:35And I'll get into that later, because I'm still digging into that part.
03:39But needless to say, what happened did lead to a splinter group.
03:45That splinter group did evolve into your story.
03:49So maybe if you could begin, just tell everybody a little bit about yourself, and we'll get into
03:54the deeper, maybe later in the podcast.
03:57But the focus of this, obviously, is your story.
04:00So welcome aboard.
04:03All right.
04:03Well, thank you for having me on your podcast.
04:06My name is Joel Crosby.
04:07I'm a former member of the Potter's House.
04:09Actually, I grew up in the door in the Netherlands, which is, the door is part of the Potter's House.
04:18It's one of several names that they use.
04:21And I was born and raised into it.
04:26And I left about seven years ago at the age of 25.
04:31There has, I've had a lot of very bad experiences in the Potter's House.
04:40And after I left the Potter's House, I actually have a lot more that I have experienced.
04:47And it partly has to do because of how much I speak out against the Potter's House and everything
04:54that I have gone through.
04:58I can start at the beginning, if that's all right.
05:02Absolutely.
05:04My dad also did an interview with you.
05:07He became a member of the Potter's House when he was in the U.S. still.
05:15He was in the Army.
05:16And he was on his way to a church called, I think it was Open Bible or Assemblies of God,
05:26one of both.
05:28And on the way there, his car broke down.
05:30So he could no longer go to that church with his car.
05:35And he was looking for a new church that he could reach with the public transportation.
05:40And that was Victory Chapel.
05:42Victory Chapel was part of what we called the Fellowship.
05:45The Fellowship is the Potter's House, the door, lighthouse, all kinds of churches belong to that.
05:53And he became a member there.
05:55And as he moved around, as the Army moved him around, he kind of visited several Fellowship churches.
06:05And then he got sent to the Netherlands by the Army.
06:12And he met my mom here in the first Fellowship church that we had in Europe.
06:18And they got married shortly after.
06:21He got sent back to the States.
06:24Then my two sisters were born there.
06:26And then he got sent a second time to Europe, this time to Germany, where I was born.
06:31We moved to Belgium.
06:32And in Belgium, his 20 years in the Army came to a stop.
06:38And the Army actually offered him a job.
06:40He could stay there and work as a civilian and be paid about 10,000 guilders per month.
06:50And he turned that down and said no, because he wanted his children to experience an ongoing revival as he
07:00had experienced in the States.
07:01And with that, he meant he wanted us to become members of the Fellowship again.
07:05So we moved back to the Netherlands when I was three years old.
07:13And that's where we became part of the Fellowship again.
07:18I'm so curious to learn the perspective of a child growing up in the Potter's House.
07:23What was your childhood like in the movement?
07:25My childhood wasn't really that different.
07:29I mean, there's not really much that I can say about my childhood in the Fellowship.
07:35I just did everything that we had.
07:38We had Sunday school.
07:39We had children's choir and children's church.
07:44And those were the things that I was going to.
07:49And then when I became a teenager and I started going to high school, I already noticed that a lot
07:57of the testimonies that older children had, they all had a common theme.
08:04And that common theme was that they wanted to go to high school and they wanted to fit in.
08:10And when they wanted to fit in, they started smoking or drinking and that was considered a sin.
08:17So they backslid.
08:19And I was really afraid of losing my salvation.
08:22So what I did is I thought, okay, when I go to high school, all I have to do is
08:27not fit in.
08:28And then I will keep my salvation.
08:31So as a consequence of that, I got bullied in high school a lot.
08:34Um, I've actually gone to about eight different schools.
08:40Uh, and with that, I mean, uh, primary school, high school and college.
08:46Um, and most of them, because I got bullied so much.
08:51And, uh, um, when I, when I was a teenager, there were more expectations from me, um, from the, the
09:00pastor, from the, the church on me as well.
09:04Because now I was going to enter that discipleship process.
09:08I was a teenager.
09:10That meant I had to go to youth camp, the booth, booth camps that they have, where they basically do
09:16military types of trainings with children.
09:19They have drill sergeants and they, uh, wake up, wake us up in the morning.
09:24Like we have to do real physical exercise trainings, which I didn't like because, uh, my dad always told me,
09:33do not go to the, in the army.
09:35Uh, he had very bad experiences there.
09:38So, um.
09:39You mentioned bullying and so many different schools.
09:41I've talked about that to some extent, but I've never really mentioned the bullying.
09:45I was, uh, same exact thing.
09:48We went to so many different schools because we were moving to different locations, different cities that had different churches
09:54in the Branham organization.
09:56And like you, I grew up different than everybody else.
09:59And the sad truth of the matter is there are children who can't really handle the different.
10:05And that's why there are bullies.
10:07They see somebody who's different.
10:08They begin picking on them.
10:09Why are you different than me?
10:10And psychologically, it's just a, it's a, um, personality disorder they have.
10:15Well, they start picking on the child who's different.
10:18Well, if you're in a cult, you are the one who's different.
10:20You are the target for, uh, for many bullies.
10:23And I was one of those targets, fortunately, and sadly too, because I look back, this was not a good
10:29memory, but I grew, I grew physically faster than everybody else.
10:33So I was, I was a little bit bigger until I got into, uh, maybe high school.
10:38I, I was not as big as some of the others, but I was larger and I did have a
10:43bully picking on, picking on me.
10:45And I, it, he pushed the line so far that I finally just exploded and let him have it.
10:51And I remember people having to pull me off of him as I was swinging fists.
10:56And that was the last time, at least in that school, that that happened.
11:00And so I, I've, I sympathize with everything that you have said and the army connection, you know, or the
11:07military connection.
11:08It's so weird because it is, it's really like you're going through a military program.
11:14When you join into these cults as a child, they are training you.
11:17They're trying to break you down.
11:19They're trying to remove your, your willingness to be your own person.
11:25It's, there are so many similarities now on the military side, they're doing it for a good cause.
11:30And in some cases, but in the cult side, they're doing it just solely so they can break you down
11:34and have their way with your mind.
11:36So there are so many similarities and none of, none of them are good.
11:40Um, yeah, I, um, I went to bootcamp.
11:44I was expected to go to the outreach that we did every time, uh, which I did because if you,
11:52when you, when you did those things, you fit in.
11:55Uh, and I was trying to fit in with the other kids in, uh, in the church.
12:01Um, but I also had pretty bad stage fright.
12:06And, uh, one of the things that we did was we did a drama team and, uh, the choirs that
12:14we had, the, the youth choir.
12:16And I really hated doing that, but I did those things because I was trying to fit in out when
12:21I was being bullied in school.
12:24I was, um, um, I got really depressed and I got so depressed that I actually didn't want to live
12:31anymore.
12:32And, um, um, in church, I learned that I had to go to my pastor if I had a, uh,
12:39if I had any problems for counseling.
12:42The problem was that our pastor did not have any formal training whatsoever.
12:46All he did was, uh, a type of school for farmers.
12:51So he was, uh, it was better at keeping livestock than caring for people.
12:58And, uh, yeah, he was, um, uh, when I went to him, uh, for counseling, I told him I was
13:06really depressed.
13:07And at the same time, there was a lot of things going on with the health, with my dad's health,
13:13uh, because, um, he, he had some, um, medical complications from several sicknesses that he had.
13:24And the doctors didn't really know what to do with him.
13:26And because of that, he went on some experimental interferon treatments, uh, and that really messed with his head, uh,
13:39in a way that we, we had difficulty at home as well.
13:47So I told my pastor, I was depressed.
13:49I told him about my dad and everything that was going on at home as well.
13:53And then he just told me, well, if you're depressed, just smile, because if you smile, your brain will make
14:00some chemicals that will make you happy.
14:02And, uh, about your dad, your dad's a rebel.
14:06You need to find another father figure in the church.
14:10And yeah, that when he said that, I mean,
14:14I knew that my dad was considered a rebel because he was, um, he, he was smarter than most people
14:22in the church.
14:23He knew Greek, he knew Hebrew, he knew what the Bible said, and he knew that what they were preaching
14:28was not that.
14:31Um, and, uh, what he did is we had this Sunday morning Bible study.
14:36And in the Bible study, you were allowed to ask questions during the study.
14:40Uh, and he, he did ask questions, but he asked,
14:44uh, questions that were too difficult for the pastors and, um, they didn't like that.
14:51So one time he was actually saying something that, uh, he was agreeing with pastor and the pastor didn't understand
14:58what he was saying and, uh, try, try to silence him while he was trying to back what he was
15:05saying.
15:05So, um, but yeah, no, so I knew that people considered him a rebel for speaking out against the pastor
15:14publicly like that.
15:16Uh, but now I heard it from the pastor himself.
15:19And what that did was that I, I did what the pastor told me.
15:24I looked at another father figure, basically in the church, another example.
15:30The pastor actually, I think meant himself when he said that, but I didn't realize that back then.
15:38And, uh, I did not choose him as the replacement father figure because I, I knew that I never wanted
15:46to be anything like him, but I didn't want to be good in his eyes.
15:50Basically, I did a lot for the approval of the pastor.
15:54Earlier when I said the cults will break you down, there, there's so many different ways that they do that.
16:00But one of the ways that they do it is they break down the family unit.
16:02And what you've just, just described is exactly that.
16:06They actually put more emphasis on the group than they do your, your family unit, your, your mother, your father,
16:13your sisters, your brothers.
16:14You are indebted to the group because they're giving you the salvation and the central figure.
16:22If, if you're directly tied to the central figure or all the way down the chain of command to your
16:28local pastors, they feel like they have this power over you because they're the one who is giving you this,
16:35this salvation in a bucket.
16:37You know, it's, it's so weird because they, they basically replaced the role of the Holy Spirit in these groups.
16:41And people submit to them thinking it is their only chance of survival, survival, meaning eternal survival, you know, so
16:52when you're in this, one of these types of groups and they're breaking the families apart like this, what they're
16:56doing very much like the military, as I mentioned, they're trying to break your personal will so that you can
17:03have your will focused on the group.
17:05And that way you're, your, your sights are set on the group, not anything in this life.
17:10And that's why some destructive groups spin so far out of control that they even take their own lives because
17:16their lives are no longer important.
17:19That's the thing to understand while you're in one of these groups, your life is not important.
17:22And the leadership, because of their, they're going through the same group think, the same cult mindset that you are,
17:31they don't really care about your life because they also are going through the same things that you're going through.
17:36So they, as leaders don't care about your life.
17:39You, as a rank and file member, you also don't care about your life.
17:43And that's very dangerous when you take a step back and you think about everything that's going on.
17:48How did that affect your relationship with your father?
17:51What happened is I started to resent my father a lot, so much so that it eventually escalated into me
18:02going away from home for two months and living with one of my friends because of a fight that I
18:11had with my father that looking back, my dad didn't do anything wrong.
18:19It was just, I mean, I came back from a church event and it wasn't, it wasn't messing with my
18:24head.
18:25It's just so sad.
18:26You know, if you listen to any of the stories that I have on Fridays with people who have escaped
18:30these groups, they seem to all be saying the same things.
18:34And the family unit being destroyed, that's like one of the, one of the most important parts or most important
18:42jobs of a pastor is to help maintain the families that are in the congregation.
18:46It's literally the shepherd flocking, you know, working with the sheep and his flock.
18:51And yet what they're trying to do is become both the shepherd and the wolf.
18:55And it's just, it's so wrong.
18:57Whenever you think about it, one of the things that happens in these groups, whenever they're in that level of
19:04destructive nature, they turn into what people call a high control group.
19:09People are trying to submit their will to the group and they try to, um, they try to give them
19:14activities, et cetera, just try to basically keep their mind so busy that they can't think of the fact that
19:20their families are being destroyed.
19:22Is that something that happened in your group?
19:24I did a lot to, to try to fit in with the other kids in church.
19:33Uh, and as I grew older, um, even more was expected of me.
19:39Yeah.
19:39I assume that would be the case that literally all of these groups to some level have, have exactly that.
19:45And again, it goes back to the fact that they want your focus to be in the group, not on
19:50your family.
19:51And it's just, it destroys families.
19:54Let's go back and let's talk a bit about your, uh, father and the, especially the mental health aspect.
20:00I did have the conversation with him.
20:02I want to hear also your perspective, as I've mentioned several times in these groups, they really frown upon mental
20:09health, um, seeking help for mental health issues.
20:13And in fact, in some groups, they demonize it.
20:16If you go to one of these, one of these, um, counselors or therapists or, uh, anything to do with
20:23your brain health, they will say that those people are, are working for the devil or the medicine medication itself
20:31is the devil.
20:32I went to multiple pastors as I was fighting through anxiety, severe, crippling anxiety that was leading to depression.
20:40And I had one, one minister tell me that John don't go to those mental health doctors.
20:47He was, I think he was saying therapists don't go to those therapists because they will recommend that you get
20:51medication.
20:52And I've watched time and time again, the moment that somebody in my church gets this medication for their brain
20:59health, they leave the cult.
21:01And he obviously didn't use the word cult, but it's so frowned upon because they, I think the groups have
21:07learned that if people can get their mental faculties in order, they're going to suddenly wake up and critically think.
21:15And so they do not want the critical thought in the group.
21:19So what's that like from your perspective?
21:21Do you, do you see the same thing in your group as I saw in mine?
21:24So the, the same story was, was mentioned several times in our church as well.
21:30Well, it's not really several times.
21:32It's, it's even in their own books.
21:34Uh, I mean, I have a stack here of books that I, uh, some of which I have read, some
21:41of which I'm still reading.
21:42These are all books that are written by fellowship pastors and, uh, uh, what you're saying about therapy and do
21:51not go to therapy.
21:53There's even quotes in these books where they say that, um, if you, uh, if you go to a psychiatrist,
22:01then they will charge you $150 an hour just to sit there and listen to you complain.
22:07And then you go back, uh, the same or even worse than you came in.
22:12So they were really, really against going to therapy and they, they were actively telling people not to go.
22:20Uh, and actually this, this is later though, but, uh, after I left and I did go into therapy and
22:30I told them about, I was a member of the door.
22:33Then they already said, Oh, okay.
22:36And I asked them, Oh, so you have heard of, uh, of it and you have had clients from there.
22:44And then they said, well, I'm not supposed to talk about it, but I'm glad that you left.
22:49That's what they told me.
22:51Yeah.
22:52So it's, uh, it's funny that you said that.
22:55Yeah, I've had similar conversations and it's kind of funny how they dodged that question, but in the end, it's
23:02so sad because the people who really, really need the help and that help may be medication.
23:06It may not.
23:07They need it so desperately.
23:09It causes them to suffer beyond what other people in the church are even suffering.
23:15I can speak from experience.
23:16This is one of the most devastating things to have to go through.
23:19It, um, robs you of your life, your happiness.
23:23Sometimes for some people, it robs them of their families.
23:26It is awful.
23:27And to think that the shepherd of a flock would do this, it tells me that it's, it's not a
23:32shepherd at all.
23:33I, I feel really, really bad for your father.
23:36So my, my dad's mental health, uh, he was, he was so busy with everything that was, that he was
23:44going through.
23:44Uh, he was sleeping, uh, I thought 16 hours a day or maybe even more, um, because of the medication,
23:52the pain and everything.
23:54And every time he was sleeping, then, um, the, the pain, he didn't feel it actively, I guess.
24:02But, um, eventually there was a time that he, uh, he was diagnosed with cancer as well, uh, intestine cancer.
24:12And then, uh, I gave him a month to live.
24:15I thought he's going to die now, um, because everything that, uh, he was, he was going through a lot
24:25of pain.
24:25And, um, that's one of the worst sounds that I, you can, you can hear someone make is when they
24:33go through that much pain.
24:37And, uh, I really, my entire childhood, basically my youth, I was expecting my dad to die at any moment.
24:51Uh, and at the same time, uh, I was resenting him and I was afraid of when he did die,
25:02that I would be too close to him to feel that emotional pain.
25:07Um, so I was also trying not to be too close, I guess.
25:12Um, and my pastor telling me that he was a rebel and I should look for, uh, another father figure.
25:21Wow.
25:22And it, it took, it took years away from a relationship that I might, might have had with my dad,
25:29uh, that I cannot take back.
25:33It's just so wrong.
25:35You know, like I said, it breaks the family units apart and people who are in the family units don't
25:40even realize that they're being broken apart.
25:42That's really the crux of this.
25:44And yet at the same time, there are people in leadership who are aware of exactly what they're doing and
25:51they see it as a righteous thing.
25:52They don't see it as they're being destructive or they have ill intent.
25:56So for a godly purpose, they're breaking family units apart.
25:59But there are some who realize what they're doing is wrong and they use it as a weapon.
26:06They, they know that the, the family has put more importance on the cult than they have the family unit.
26:11And they realize that if a person leaves the group, their families will likely cut them off.
26:16And over time, this has just evolved into this thing where it becomes a weapon by the ministers.
26:20There's, if you don't behave, if you, in other words, if you don't adhere to our cult's rules, I'm going
26:27to cut you off from the group and your family will never ever talk to you again, or they will
26:31emotionally block you.
26:32They don't come out and say the consequences.
26:35They don't come out and tell your family won't love you, but that's essentially what happens.
26:39They know that that's what's going to happen.
26:41Families will cut them off.
26:42And it is just so wrong to think that a minister would do this, a minister of the gospel, of
26:47all things, that it's a different gospel.
26:50It truly is.
26:51And it is wrong.
26:52Yeah, exactly.
26:53And, and what you just described, that's something that I experienced really rough.
27:00When, when it actually came that far, because I never thought I would actually leave the cult.
27:06I always thought, like, this is my home.
27:07This is my family.
27:08I'm never going to leave.
27:09And I tried actively.
27:11I mean, I told you about my childhood.
27:13I was afraid of losing my salvation.
27:16And losing my salvation was the same thing as, as leaving the church.
27:21Because I, in the church, I had a couple of friends who came in later than I did.
27:27They weren't really church kids.
27:28They stayed for a couple of years and then they left.
27:31And my friendship with them stopped as well.
27:35And I was too young.
27:36And this was before the social media.
27:39So, I, I just, I didn't know where they were.
27:44I didn't have any way to keep in contact with them.
27:47They left.
27:47We didn't have any contact anymore.
27:49We were no longer friends.
27:51But when I, when I did come to a realization that the church was not perfect, was somewhere in 2015.
28:02Uh, this was when, uh, a woman from church, um, we were talking and, uh, I don't know why, but
28:13I, I asked that.
28:14I asked her a question, uh, have you ever killed an animal?
28:19A weird question to ask, but okay.
28:20I was trying to make conversation, I guess, in my own weird way.
28:25And, um, uh, she, she didn't like the question at all.
28:29And she made that really clear.
28:30She told me, uh, uh, to switch the subject.
28:34And I was sorry that I even ever asked her.
28:37Then, uh, one year later, 2016, my, my dad, um, came to church one day.
28:43And he saw a, uh, a, uh, another pastor from another church, a city, from another city there who was
28:53usually translating.
28:54And he was there to translate again in the morning for the son of the founder, uh, Greg Mitchell, who
29:01is now the, the new head of the entire fellowship.
29:07And, uh, um, and that was so unexpected for him because he had some very, very bad experiences with that
29:16pastor.
29:16So he kind of, he said some words against him.
29:23He screamed some words at him, uh, nothing that wasn't true.
29:27And, uh, that was the last day that he was ever in the church.
29:31So he left.
29:32Uh, and that, that was very difficult because now, I mean, that was already a rebel and I did everything
29:38I could to show the church that I was nothing like him.
29:42Uh, even though I'm a lot like him, but that, um, that was very difficult because if you're, if you're
29:51in the church, you have, uh, and your parents are in the church and you're a church kid and your
29:56parents are considered pillars, which means they helped build up the church by their, uh,
30:02time and their money.
30:05Then when your parents leave, like my dad left and my, my mom followed a couple months later, then you
30:13lose some kind of status in the church.
30:15And that same thing happened with me because now my parents were gone and people started looking at me like,
30:20Oh, is Joel going to leave or are my sisters going to leave?
30:24Uh, so I, I was trying even harder to prove that I was nothing like my dad.
30:31Uh, they break the family units apart, but not just the mother, father, sister, brother.
30:37They also break the distant relatives apart, especially, especially those who've left those who were never in the group.
30:43I actually said in a sermon where a minister from behind the pulpit said, I went to a family reunion
30:49and Oh boy.
30:50And he goes off into his, uh, laughter about ridiculing those who aren't in the group.
30:55And he says something to this effect.
30:58Some of the family members asked me, why don't I ever come see them?
31:00Why don't you ever have anything to do with us?
31:02And I just told them flat out to their face.
31:05It's because you left the message.
31:06And he was referring to branimism.
31:09He said, because you're not in branimism, I won't come see you.
31:12And he said, flat out to their faces, apparently, at least that's what he said from behind the pulpit.
31:18If you would come back into the message, I would spend some time with you.
31:22And it's just so wrong to think a minister who's trying to lead the flock as a shepherd would think
31:29it's okay and holy and righteous to split a family apart.
31:32In fact, it just angers me.
31:34Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
31:42reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
31:47You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
31:54On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
32:02John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
32:08You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
32:15If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
32:21top.
32:22And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
32:27watching.
32:28On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
32:33So we've talked about how a destructive group impacts the childhood, and especially how the family unit, the mother, father,
32:41sister, brother, is kind of broken apart.
32:44The group is the emphasis, the family is not as important, and especially the extended family is broken apart.
32:51Now let's fast forward a bit to the teenage years, to the years whenever you're trying to establish your own
32:57family, you're trying to build your own family unit.
33:00The group gets involved with this in ways that I think a lot of people don't really think through.
33:05Not just that they're telling you who or who not you can marry, although some groups do, but they get
33:10into your head in ways that it impacts the rest of your life.
33:13So let's talk through this a bit.
33:15What was it like for you during this point of time in your life?
33:18A lot of things happen in the span of three years or something, because in 2017 I met my wife,
33:27and I already liked her a lot, but we weren't allowed to date or anything because she wasn't from our
33:36church.
33:36So she became a member of the church in 2017, and the rule is you stay for six months, and
33:44then after that you're allowed to date or whatever.
33:50So I waited for six months, and then in 2018 I was allowed to ask her to be my girlfriend,
34:00which I got permission for from the pastor.
34:05And then he gave me permission, and I went to her brother and sister, who were both also members of
34:15the church by then, and told them that he would do everything he could to break us up.
34:25Because I was a bad guy, and he told them basically everything, like, oh, Joel has depression, and he did
34:33this, and he did that, everything I ever confessed to him.
34:37He told that to them, and also to her then, and I really had to fight for the relationship, but
34:48I had the luck that my wife, now she's my wife,
34:54and tried to find out whether everything that was being said was true by going to me and asking me.
35:01So then I was able to show her, like, I have no idea why a pastor would say stuff like
35:08that.
35:09That kind of opened my eyes, but what really opened my eyes was that in that same year, that same
35:14girl that I asked,
35:15have you ever killed an animal?
35:18She came back and said to me that, you remember that question that you asked me three years ago,
35:26about if I've ever killed an animal, and I said yes.
35:29And then she told me the whole story, and that really shattered my whole view of who the pastor was,
35:35because apparently the pastor had asked her to participate in a drama video where she was supposed to kill a
35:48fish on camera,
35:50and that was supposedly based on Proverbs 7, about a young man that follows a woman like an ox going
36:01to the slaughterhouse.
36:02And he had a whole story made up about that, and she had to participate in that drama.
36:08And she did that because if pastor asked you to do something, then you do that.
36:13No questions about it, even though she didn't like doing it.
36:17Then he lost that video, and she had to do it again.
36:24And then his computer crashed, and she had to do it again.
36:29And in total, she had to do it like four times.
36:32He asked her if she would ever want to do a chicken, and she said no, because a fish was
36:38difficult enough.
36:40And then she asked, why do you want me to kill fish all the time?
36:43And he confessed that he found it exciting, that he had a blood fetishism.
36:50And this was because of his name, which was, it sounds familiar to the Dutch word for boar, like a
36:59wild pig.
37:01And he thought that he was a filthy pig who needed to be slaughtered as well.
37:06That was his whole fetishism thing.
37:09He was messed up in the head.
37:11And the only reason why this girl, who came to me three years later, is because she said she felt
37:19like the Holy Spirit wanted her to tell me this.
37:23And she found out that she wasn't the only one.
37:27In total, there were 12 girls that she knew of then.
37:31That number has now climbed to over 20.
37:35And I have spoken to more than one of these victims.
37:42And during this, during this, these meetings, and also other meetings that he had with her, he also sexually abused
37:52her.
37:55And when she told me this, I was really confused.
37:59Of course, she didn't tell me everything at once because it was traumatic for her to recall those experiences.
38:08And the more she spoke to me and the more she shared, I found out that there was something seriously
38:14wrong.
38:15So, we went to the church council and the church council then removed the pastor from his position as pastor
38:27of our church.
38:29So, you think that they're trying to solve the problem.
38:33That's what I thought.
38:34And that's why I stayed in the potter's house.
38:36I stayed in the door.
38:37But what happened after that is that the victim's house was vandalized with graffiti, with the word slut and whore,
38:47because she was being made out to be the seductress.
38:56It was a consensual relationship, according to them.
39:01So, a new pastor came about two weeks later, and that pastor was actually recommended as the next pastor by
39:15the old pastor, and it was his best friend.
39:18And he put everything, he swept everything under the rug.
39:22So, here's where your research and your experience is beginning to merge and converge with my research and my experience
39:30and the experience others have shared, not just with the abuse side of things.
39:35There is this transference that happens, and it is part of the movement.
39:39It predated Branhamism by a long ways, but they focused so heavily upon, through British Israelism,
39:46they focused on this idea that the last chapter of the book of Malachi, where it talks about,
39:51Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet.
39:53They tried to say that this was not John the Baptist, that this instead is a new figure,
39:58and that this book, even though the prophecy of Malachi was written to Israel, not to the Gentiles, or not
40:07to the modern world,
40:08they tried to say that we're going to rip out that last chapter, and we're going to apply it to
40:12modern times.
40:13And whenever one group kind of gets stagnant, another group spins off, and they claim this transference.
40:21You and I have talked about this some beforehand, offline, but this is a problem, because this is how new
40:28groups spin off.
40:29It's going to tie a little bit into what I said earlier about Chuck Smith, which we'll get into,
40:34but that transference is just awful.
40:37That is what you said earlier happened to your group, right?
40:41The fellowship was built on the principle of Elijah and Eliza, of the transference of spirits.
40:52You know that Eliza got the double portion of the spirit of Elijah, because...
40:59Okay, well, if that whole principle is real, and you have a thing that is the transference of spirits,
41:07what kind of spirit was being transferred when that pastor was our pastor?
41:12That's exactly it.
41:14If there's one point that listeners take away from this, it's exactly that.
41:18It really doesn't matter if the person is good, if the person is suited, if the person is fitting.
41:23Like you said, it could be a friend, etc.
41:25As long as they can convince the people that this transference of spirit is happening,
41:30the people will accept whoever it is, whether good or bad.
41:33And it's so horrendous when you think that there are people who use this,
41:38and they'll get into ministry not even being fit for a minister.
41:42It was a big issue, and I was trying to correct that by basically saving the church from a monster.
41:53I did everything that I could for that.
41:56And then when I noticed that nothing was changed,
42:00and that they were actually gaslighting me into believing that this woman was having a consensual relationship with the pastor,
42:08then I started asking questions, and I started digging deeper.
42:13And at one time, I got so mad at the pastor that I told my family, who had left by
42:21then,
42:22my father and mom,
42:24if the door is a cult, prove it to me by showing me in a scripture where it says that
42:33we have false doctrine.
42:34Because I thought, we preach from the Bible.
42:37If we preach from the Bible, then everything we do is correct.
42:41And then they came with 33 pages of information, and I had some studying to do.
42:47And I found out that they were telling the truth, and that I was wrong, that the door was wrong.
42:54And I started digging deeper into this.
42:56And at one point, I didn't want to live with the idea that my family was right and I was
43:05wrong.
43:05That means my whole life was built on a lie.
43:09So I went to the pastor, because I wanted my pastor to tell me what I should tell my parents.
43:17And my pastor just said,
43:18Well, do you still believe in tithing and headship?
43:22As if those were the most important things, even though I had more important things to discuss.
43:28And the way he responded to me was like,
43:32I thought, should I still believe in those things?
43:38And at the same time, a lot of things happened,
43:41because at the same time, I wanted to ask my girlfriend to marry me.
43:46And I got permission from the pastor, so I went and proposed to her.
43:51And then I came back, and I wanted to pick a date when we were allowed to get married,
43:55because the pastor picks the date.
43:57That wasn't us.
43:58The pastor told us when.
44:00All we could do is say, we want to marry in the summer.
44:02That's it.
44:05And then the pastor said,
44:08one day, he didn't respond to my messages,
44:10but then we went to church, and he said,
44:11I want to talk to you and to your fiancée and then together.
44:15But so, first to me, he told me he wasn't going to marry us.
44:20Or no, first to my wife, he said some things that I don't remember,
44:24or I wasn't there, so I don't know what they said.
44:28All I know is what my wife then said to me.
44:30But when we had the meeting together, he told her while I was there,
44:37you shouldn't marry Joel.
44:39When you marry him, you're going to end up in a hole.
44:42He's going to pull you out of the church.
44:44You're going to have a miserable marriage, all these things.
44:49And then after the meeting, my wife was crying,
44:54and he was laughing kind of-ish at her.
44:59And I was trying to make that meeting stop as soon as possible
45:05by not saying anything.
45:07But after a while, I got so agitated.
45:10I did say some things like,
45:12whoa, this is going to be the wrong direction.
45:14I want to get married.
45:15I don't want to not get married.
45:19And then after the meeting, we stood up,
45:21and we walked away, and she told me,
45:24did you hear the way he spoke to you?
45:27I said, if you were a piece of shit.
45:29And then I said, yeah, I'm used to it by now.
45:33And I meant it.
45:34I meant it, really.
45:36And then she said, what are we going to do now?
45:38And I said, we're going to leave.
45:42They don't have the right
45:45to do this.
45:47I tried to save this church from a monster,
45:49and this is how they repay me.
45:51It doesn't make sense.
45:53No, it doesn't make sense.
45:54And when you really think about it,
45:56what they're doing,
45:57like I said, they're splitting the family units apart.
46:00They're involving themselves in ways
46:02that kind of destroy the family unit
46:04before it even gets created here.
46:06And they don't realize that
46:07where a church could come in
46:09and be a big part of your life,
46:10especially during wedding ceremony
46:13and helping future planning.
46:15Instead, what they're doing,
46:16they're alienating the very people
46:17that they could be helping
46:18if they were spreading the gospel.
46:20I think that's the key.
46:22They're not really concerned about the gospel.
46:23They're concerned about the group.
46:25And so the new family doesn't matter.
46:27And from there,
46:29it turns into even more destructive
46:31to the family unit.
46:33So it's just so terrible.
46:35What happened next?
46:36What was it like
46:37whenever you started your plans
46:40to get married?
46:41So we left.
46:45We planned to get married
46:47four months later.
46:49I invited only four friends
46:52from that church
46:54because I knew
46:55I was going to lose everyone by leaving.
46:58And two of those friends told me
47:00that I was outside of the will of God
47:02and that they would not come to our wedding.
47:05And those same two friends
47:08and their wives
47:10have then since left
47:11and we are friends again.
47:15I mean, I understand.
47:16I was like that too.
47:19Yeah, I was really hurt
47:20whenever I left the group
47:22and then so many people in the group
47:24cut me off
47:24and it took me quite a few years
47:27to realize that I was just like that.
47:29I was the same as them.
47:30And it's just so, so wrong.
47:32And it's a different world
47:34once you come out of it.
47:35But now you're on uncharted ground.
47:39There's this feeling of helplessness
47:42because now you have to build
47:43a new support group,
47:44a new group of people to be with.
47:48And what was that like for you
47:50with your new wife?
47:51Yeah, so after leaving,
47:53I had to find out,
47:57I had to rediscover,
47:59or I had to discover actually
48:00how you actually make friends
48:02because I considered people
48:05who went to our church
48:07to be my friends.
48:10And then we go to the same church,
48:12so we're friends.
48:12And now all of a sudden,
48:14how do you make friends in the world?
48:17It took me about two years.
48:19And it was very lonely
48:21because it was also COVID.
48:25So I didn't really have friends
48:29at that time.
48:30I had my family
48:31and I had a lot of support from them.
48:38I also tried to figure out
48:40what I had actually just been through.
48:45And one of the last things
48:47that I told my cousin
48:49after I left the church
48:50was you don't have to worry about me.
48:52I will not become
48:53one of those rebels.
48:55And now I'm one of the biggest rebels
48:58they have ever seen, basically.
49:02I became part of the,
49:04part of two Facebook groups
49:06that they had,
49:08where I came into contact
49:10with other people
49:11who had been members
49:13of the Potter's House.
49:16And after a while
49:17of seeing the posts,
49:18I noticed that every post
49:20was the same,
49:21but they were all
49:22by a different author.
49:24Everything,
49:25everybody was saying
49:26the same things.
49:27And everybody was also saying
49:30somebody has to do something.
49:32Somebody has to do something.
49:33And nobody was actually
49:34doing something.
49:35So I was thinking about
49:37what I could do.
49:39And one of the things
49:40that I really wanted to do
49:42was write a book.
49:43So that's why
49:44I wrote my book,
49:46Escape in the Potter's House,
49:48where I was trying to make
49:50a final argument,
49:52basically.
49:53And that argument was
49:54that it wasn't just me.
49:57It wasn't just my story.
49:59Because every time I did have
50:00a conversation with someone,
50:01it's like,
50:02yeah, that's just you.
50:04That doesn't make
50:04the whole thing a cult.
50:06But I was trying to show them
50:08what a cult is.
50:09And all they kept doing
50:12and they still keep doing
50:13is saying that
50:15experiences don't make it a cult.
50:18But they don't even know
50:21what a cult is.
50:22They cannot define the word.
50:23They have never,
50:24ever researched
50:25what defines a cult.
50:28So they don't know.
50:30And I was trying to make
50:32a final argument
50:33by taking the experiences
50:36of 10 former members,
50:37compiling it into one book.
50:39And those 10 former members
50:41are from four different countries
50:44as well.
50:46So I'm showing that
50:47it's all over the world.
50:50Every place where you have
50:52a fellowship church
50:53is the same stories,
50:56but by different authors.
50:58And after writing that book,
51:00I came into contact
51:01with some other people
51:04who have also been in cults.
51:08And one of them
51:09actually became
51:11International News in 2019
51:14because he grew up
51:15on a farm
51:17in the Netherlands.
51:19And he wasn't registered anywhere.
51:23He was born there.
51:24He had lived for 25 years
51:26and nobody knew
51:27he existed.
51:30And
51:31well,
51:32him,
51:33he also wrote a book.
51:34And then another
51:37another person
51:39that I met,
51:40he was now
51:40a cult expert
51:41at the police department.
51:43He had also written
51:44a book about
51:45his experiences
51:46where a cult
51:47tried to frame him
51:48for being insane.
51:50and he actually
51:52spent years
51:53in
51:53psychiatric
51:56institutions
51:56trying to prove
51:58that he wasn't
51:59crazy.
52:00And the three of us
52:01started a company
52:02together
52:03where we are
52:07giving
52:07trainings
52:08and workshops
52:09and lectures
52:10to
52:11healthcare professionals
52:13to provide
52:14better
52:16healthcare
52:17for cult survivors.
52:18wow,
52:20you've been busy.
52:21Yeah,
52:21I've been
52:22trying to do
52:23a lot of things.
52:24I've also
52:24started my own
52:25non-profit
52:25for
52:28people who
52:28left the Potter's House.
52:30I'm trying to do
52:31a lot of things
52:32to show
52:33that they have
52:35become a cult
52:37and to try
52:38to get
52:38our story heard.
52:40I started my own
52:41YouTube channel
52:42called
52:42the Potter's House
52:43Cult
52:44where I post
52:45videos
52:46but
52:47it doesn't
52:47matter what I do
52:49everything
52:50that I do
52:51keeps being
52:52attacked
52:52and
52:54it's always
52:54by people
52:55who
52:56have never
52:57known me
52:57who have
52:58never
52:59met me
52:59and
53:00who
53:01seem to
53:02know the
53:03most about me
53:03because they
53:04are telling me
53:05things about me
53:06that
53:07are just
53:08simply untrue
53:09but that's
53:09the story
53:10that they
53:11have made
53:11of me
53:12in their head.
53:13So I promised
53:14at the beginning
53:14I would have you
53:15talk through
53:15your research
53:16into Chuck
53:17Smith
53:17and I don't
53:18want to lose
53:18sight of that
53:19so let's
53:19talk about
53:20that now.
53:21Again,
53:22you and I
53:23have been
53:23researching
53:23the same
53:24things but
53:25from different
53:25angles,
53:25actually from
53:26different
53:27destructive
53:28groups,
53:28which is
53:28interesting.
53:29Tell us a
53:30little bit
53:30about your
53:30research
53:31into Chuck
53:31Smith.
53:32So what
53:32I later
53:34discovered
53:35actually fairly
53:36recently is
53:37that if I'm
53:39not mistaken
53:40then Chuck
53:42Smith was
53:43the founder
53:44of the
53:45group that
53:46Mike Winger
53:47actually left,
53:48right?
53:49Yeah, I believe
53:49that's right.
53:50Yeah, so
53:51and Chuck
53:52Smith was
53:54the founder
53:55of the
53:55Prescott
53:57Botter's
53:57House, which
53:58is the
53:58headquarters of
53:59all the
54:01fellowship
54:01churches
54:02worldwide,
54:03of which there
54:04are now
54:05about
54:064,500
54:07in 149
54:10countries, I
54:12believe.
54:14So Chuck
54:14Smith founded
54:15the Prescott
54:16Botter's
54:17House and
54:17what I have
54:19heard is
54:20that Wayman
54:22Mitchell has
54:23always felt
54:24some kind of
54:25rivalry to
54:26Chuck Smith.
54:28So he was
54:29always trying to
54:30be better than
54:31Chuck Smith,
54:32but he
54:35never actually
54:36mentioned his
54:37name, at
54:38least not
54:39to me,
54:41not to
54:41the part
54:43where I grew
54:43up in, the
54:44Netherlands, we
54:45didn't hear the
54:45name Chuck
54:46Smith ever.
54:47This is all
54:48things that I
54:49have later
54:50found out, and
54:51also the part
54:52that the
54:53fellowship has
54:54its roots in
54:56the new
54:59apostolic
54:59reformation,
55:00is what it's
55:01called, and
55:03that's also
55:04new for me.
55:04I didn't know
55:05that, because
55:06what the
55:07Botter's House
55:07did, and
55:08what Wayman
55:09Mitchell has
55:10done always,
55:11is he has
55:12stolen a lot
55:13of doctrines
55:14and stuff that
55:15he could use
55:16to build up
55:17his fellowship,
55:19his own
55:19branch, because
55:20he was trying
55:22to make
55:22something better
55:23than Foursquare,
55:24I guess, and
55:26then never
55:27mentioning
55:28anything that
55:29was any other
55:30preacher ever.
55:31because he
55:33was basically
55:34isolating us
55:35from any
55:36other form of
55:37Christianity.
55:38They were
55:38preaching against
55:39YouTube pastors,
55:42against finding
55:43sources from
55:44other Christian
55:46churches or
55:47denominations,
55:49so what I
55:51know now is
55:52very little,
55:54and that is
55:55just that Chuck
55:56Smith and
55:57Wayman
55:57Mitchell,
55:59they knew
56:00each other,
56:00or are they
56:01in the same
56:02circles?
56:03Yeah, exactly.
56:04I know people
56:05get angry when I
56:06mention names like
56:06Chuck Smith.
56:07They think,
56:07John's focusing
56:08against Chuck
56:09Smith.
56:10Chuck Smith,
56:10John thinks,
56:11is a bad guy.
56:12It's not that.
56:13It's that the
56:13system was bad.
56:15The system was
56:16destructive, and
56:17especially the
56:18theology that we
56:19need this Elisha
56:20spirit to rise
56:21from the
56:22modern Elijah,
56:23the Chuck
56:24Smiths,
56:25you could almost
56:26go down the
56:27line of all of
56:27these different
56:28famous people,
56:29some good,
56:30some bad,
56:30but they rose
56:31up to be
56:32something greater
56:33than what a
56:33human should
56:34be.
56:34They created a
56:36following that
56:37revered them in
56:39a way that a
56:39human should not
56:40be revered.
56:41Well, what
56:42happens is,
56:42because the
56:43theology is
56:44destructive,
56:44people will
56:45splinter off of
56:45this, and
56:46then they'll
56:46become even
56:47worse.
56:49I have seen
56:50some groups
56:50who branched
56:51off of some
56:52movements that
56:53were kind of
56:53benign.
56:54They weren't
56:54really that
56:55bad, but
56:55the underlying
56:56system, the
56:56theology, was
56:57bad.
56:58So, if you
56:59could give
56:59some advice
56:59to people who
57:00are trapped
57:01in the group
57:01and help
57:02them to
57:02escape, what
57:03advice would
57:03you give
57:04them?
57:04Well, the
57:05thought that
57:05helped me
57:06most was
57:08that every
57:09minute I
57:11spent here,
57:12knowing that
57:13one day I
57:14will probably
57:14leave, there's
57:16a minute
57:16wasted.
57:17If I'm
57:19probably going
57:20to leave
57:20one day, I
57:21might as
57:22well do
57:22it today.
57:23That's what
57:24drove me to
57:26really go
57:27through with
57:27it and leave
57:29the father's
57:30house for
57:30good.
57:32I didn't
57:32want to
57:32waste any
57:33more time.
57:34Well, that's
57:34very good
57:35advice.
57:35Thank you so
57:36much for
57:36joining me and
57:37for sharing
57:37your story.
57:38You too.
57:39Thank you for
57:39having me.
57:40Well, if you've
57:40enjoyed our show
57:41and you want
57:41more information
57:42or to share
57:42your story, you
57:43can check us
57:43out on the
57:44web.
57:44You can find
57:45us at
57:45william-branham.org.
57:46For more about
57:47the dark side of
57:48the New Apostolic
57:49Reformation, you
57:49can read
57:50Weaponized
57:50Religion from
57:51Christian Identity
57:52to the NAR,
57:53available on
57:54Amazon, Kindle,
57:55and Audible.
57:58Weaponized
57:59to the NAR,
57:59weaponized
57:59weaponized
57:59to the NAR,
58:04weaponized
58:04to the NAR,
58:05weaponized
58:06to the NAR.
58:12to the NAR,
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