- 8 hours ago
John and Jed examine a troubling pattern in charismatic and New Apostolic Reformation circles: when serious allegations surface, institutions often defend leaders, minimize victims, and frame public criticism as outside attack. Using the recent Bethel discussion involving Jen Johnson, Ben Armstrong, Sean Bowles, and broader concerns around prophetic accountability, the conversation explores why phrases like “one side of the story” can deepen harm for survivors.
The discussion also connects Bethel, IHOPKC, William Branham’s movement, the Latter Rain tradition, and the modern five-fold ministry model to a larger question: what happens when a church structure protects its own image more than the people it claims to serve? John and Jed reflect personally on family, spiritual authority, abuse allegations, and why transparency is essential for any healthy Christian community.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The discussion also connects Bethel, IHOPKC, William Branham’s movement, the Latter Rain tradition, and the modern five-fold ministry model to a larger question: what happens when a church structure protects its own image more than the people it claims to serve? John and Jed reflect personally on family, spiritual authority, abuse allegations, and why transparency is essential for any healthy Christian community.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of a false
00:46prophet and a former member of the International House of Prayer. Jed, I still can't help but laugh
00:51whenever I say son of a false prophet. I've had to be pretty self-actualized about it, so it doesn't
00:58bother me. Well, for everyone's sake, we focus on the false prophets almost every week whenever we
01:03get together, so let's focus instead on the people. It's going to be a little bit sad, a little bit,
01:11I'm opening with a, you know, a happy vibe, but it is a little bit sad when you think about
01:16the way
01:17that people get manipulated by the false prophets, or I think the better way to say it is the false
01:22anointed ones at the end time, if you consider this to be the end time, and I'm quoting that
01:28passage from the Bible loosely. But when you're in that type of environment, when you have a central
01:35figure that is divinely appointed by God, what happens when something goes wrong? What happens
01:41whenever you find out they're not appointed by God? The problem is there isn't really room for that
01:47discovery. If you discover that the man, woman, whoever it is that you're following, has been
01:55telling you that they're anointed by God, and that God has got this big move planned, well, you become
02:00part of the move, and if it's a movement by God, and you're convinced in your head to believe this,
02:06the problem is it's not always of God, and sometimes they're telling you it's of God, and it's not always
02:13of God. Well, what happens is whenever a leader falls, they always open with this, phrases like
02:21this, you only heard one side of the story, and when they say that, they're referring to the people
02:26who stand up against the crimes that are being committed, sometimes moral crimes, sometimes
02:33actually criminal issues, but they say you only heard one side of the story, and then everyone in
02:41the audience listens to this, and they think, well, that phrase sounds reasonable. I've only heard
02:46from the people who are voicing the fact that they have been abused, but see, that doesn't really work
02:53in abuse cases. That doesn't really work whenever you have victims, and while it sounds good, while
02:59somebody's stepping up and saying, well, you only heard from those victims. You only heard from the people
03:04who have been abused or something like this. Well, it doesn't work because the person that they're
03:11trying to defend is sometimes the person who committed the immoral or the criminal acts that
03:18are happening. So, I want to focus a bit on the people, but I want to be very cautious here
03:24because sometimes, in some cases, the people can't help it. If you factor in all of the mind control
03:31stuff that we've talked about, and if you need more information about that, you want to learn
03:36more about it, you can read Dr. Stephen Hassan's book, which is Combating Cult Mind Control, and you
03:42can see the effects that it has on people in this type of movement, and you can make your own
03:48conclusion as to whether it's a mind control cult or not. I've made my opinions, but the problem is
03:55that does exist. You have people who get into the group think, the leader has told them they are the
04:01anointed one, and when the anointed one does something that is horrific, well, there are
04:08people who will back the leader, and they'll point fingers actually at the person who's been
04:14the victim. In other words, they're further victimizing the victim. So, Jed, I'll let you explain
04:20the topic today, but I want to proceed with caution because there's multiple facets of
04:27things to think through as we talk through this. Yeah, well, I mean, it's like watching
04:34movies where you see the same tropes over and over, like cheap horror movies or thriller movies or
04:40something like that. There's always the same type of jump scare, and you're like, okay, we've seen this
04:46we've seen this all before, and it's amazing how much, I mean, four or five years ago before I had
04:54started digging into a lot of the stuff that you've spent a lot of your life digging into and just
05:02seeing sort of the corruption within specifically this like ladder reign movement that extended from
05:09William Branham and others. I mean, they're the same tropes are cycling over and over and over.
05:17And it's stuff that I saw when I was younger, too, but I didn't realize that they were tropes because
05:24I didn't see it happening in other settings besides our own. And so now when you see it,
05:33or now when I see it, it just, like you said, it triggers some sort of
05:44response because I know what they're doing and know what they're trying to accomplish. And I know
05:49why it's a trope because it is good at silencing victims or people to speak out loud. So specifically,
05:59I really wanted to address our last episode, we had talked about Bethel and there was a scandal with
06:08Bethel that involved a pastor on staff named Ben Armstrong, where he was accused by an intern or
06:21actually multiple interns, but one specifically, the brunt of the accusation was from an intern who he
06:30had groomed and abused in the past. And so I don't want to get into all of the details of
06:38that one.
06:39Again, I encourage people to look that up because that is something that is being investigated right
06:43now. And supposedly there is a Bethel sponsored investigation that is going on, which we'll see
06:54what that turns out. And we'll see whether or not it is a truly independent investigation. I seriously
07:00have my doubts. And we talked about that on the last episode, that this feels very similar to the
07:06first in independent investigation that IHOP ended up doing that. If people don't know how that
07:14happened, um, in the international house of prayer, uh, hires a lawyer that is their own sort of lawyer
07:21and their connections to investigate Mike Bickle. Um, she ends up coming back and being like, there's
07:27nothing really, there might've been an affair, not a really big deal. Um, about four or five months
07:33later, um, a truly independent organization is hired by people who were Christians and charismatic
07:42Christians who are within that community who weren't specifically IHOP, but wanted the truth
07:48to actually come out. And then this investigation turns out that there was 17 women, at least 17
07:54women who were, uh, groomed by Mike Bickle, that there was a culture of abuse that was, um, uh,
08:03cultivated at IHOP. So we saw that sort of like, Oh, nothing, here's this investigation. Nothing,
08:08nothing turns up. And then, uh, an investigation that seemed actually underfunded, if anything,
08:15uh, came up and was like, okay, there clearly was a systemic pattern of, um, abuse here. So maybe we'll
08:22see the same thing at Bethel. Um, again, it's the same tropes. We're seeing the same cycles over and
08:28over. And I'm trying not to be cynical and just acting like they're all the same because they're
08:32not all the same. These are different people, different abusers, different leaders that, you
08:37know, uh, different victims, different settings. Like the, I shouldn't lump it all together as one
08:43thing, but it is very difficult to, um, not see the overlap between these because just the way that they
08:51are handled is, is so eerily and, and, um, depressingly similar. So all that to say, um,
09:01I just kind of want to break down, um, in this episode, um, one I'll be sharing with you. I
09:07don't
09:07know, John, if you saw this, um, interview that I'm going to be referencing, but Jen Johnson,
09:13who Jen Johnson, for those who don't know is the daughter-in-law of Bill Johnson, Bill Johnson
09:21being the primary pastor at Bethel for several, uh, decades, um, has stepped a little bit back
09:30and it's more in this sort of patriarchal, um, leadership role at Bethel. Um, but I mean,
09:37Bill is, is absolutely the, um, leader of, of Bethel and Jen Johnson is his, um, daughter-in-law
09:45and Jen Johnson is also, I believe the head of, of Bethel music, um, or is at least significantly,
09:54um, in leadership of Bethel music. I mean, she's a very talented, uh, musician. I'm sure many people
10:02who are listening to this have heard one of their, her songs, if, if not dozens of her songs,
10:09and I'm sure people would be familiar with it, even if they didn't know it was Jen Johnson.
10:14Um, they, if they heard her singing, they would say, oh, that makes sense. Um, and so, I mean,
10:20she's, she's an important figure in her own right too. I mean, it's very, like very well
10:26respected, um, from a, um, music, uh, perspective. Uh, like I, I know that there's a lot of people
10:35who, um, really look up to her. So, I mean, a really important figure, not just because of her
10:41sort of relationship with her father-in-law, but just a very important figure in, in Beth,
10:46the Bethel community and the larger charismatic, uh, community. Um, so she went, um, on this interview
10:56the talking about Bethel music and talking about just Bethel in general. Um, but specifically,
11:04it seems like the, she went on an interview to do a little damage control. Um, and, um, that
11:12interview is still on YouTube. However, um, there was a 12 minute clip from that interview where she
11:20explicitly talked about the scandals, um, that are going on, uh, with Bethel and that 12 minute clip
11:30was deleted from the official interview, uh, because it was extremely problematic.
11:37And that actually is very important. And it goes back to what I said earlier about the group think
11:41mindset. Whenever something like this happens, the group has a mythology. The leadership is allegedly
11:48anointed by God. It has created a movement. The movement must be a movement by God. Well,
11:55what happens when there's an outside force that is raising strong opposition? And that could be a
12:00victim. That could be news media. That could be pretty much anything that, that tries, that has a
12:07conflict with the narrative that's being established. The story of the movement, the story of the movement
12:12is important. But the thing that a lot of these movements don't realize is the edit itself becomes
12:18part of that story. When I was beginning to investigate Branham, we were told that Branham was
12:24a prophet by God. Everybody who approached the platform, they got to witness the anointing. The
12:29anointing would tell them that they're healed and they would walk away healed. That's what we were
12:33told. We were told it was 100% accurate, 100% of the time. And then I started noticing in
12:38my research,
12:39there were hundreds of blank spots on tape. They were literally cutting the tape recording
12:44and then splicing it together. And you can even hear it on some of the old audio recordings where,
12:49I don't know if you've ever done this, Jed, but you can cut a cassette tape and you can tape
12:53it and
12:54it'll bloop over the spot where you cut it. Well, you hear some of these things, man. And you're like,
12:58what, what's going on? I remember hearing it while I was listening to it as a child. Well,
13:03now that I'm understanding that there were instances where people did not get healed and
13:10coincidentally, there are a lot of blank spots on the recording. Well, that becomes part of the story
13:14and people who find out and discover it. Now that becomes part of the overall narrative.
13:19And then that too has to be defended by the group mindset. So in the end, what happens is the
13:26victims,
13:27regardless of the reasons why it was removed to the victims, this looks like they're covering up
13:33evidence. I'll say it like that. And the victim further gets victimized.
13:38So I saw the video when it first came out and I remember thinking I should record this and I
13:42didn't, but I'm so glad that somebody on Twitter did. There's also, um, on, uh, I don't know much
13:49about this, uh, website or, uh, or this news organization, but there's, um, a website called
13:55protestia that seems to chronicle a lot of, um, church scandals, um, or specifically associated
14:05with, it looks like a lot of the, the charismatic community. Um, and it has, there's an article on
14:12there, um, that is called, let me, uh, deleted 12 minute clip of 10 tone deaf Jen Johnson responding
14:21to Bethel scandals. Um, if people wanted to look this up and get more context, um, cause I will,
14:28I will try to give as much context as possible, but it's good just to, to get a good reference
14:34for it. But, um, I, it does a good job of chronicling kind of what's going on. Um, but in
14:41it, Jen
14:43responds to, um, this man, Alex, who is interviewing her and Alex specifically asks very explicitly,
14:54uh, about two situations. He doesn't give the names, but he, um, asks Jen about the Sean Bowles
15:03situation or potentially my dad. Uh, I, I, whether he was referring to Sean Bowles or my dad, um,
15:13because he basically, he asked about a closely associated Bethel partner in ministry was caught
15:19using social media to gather information about people before publicly giving words of knowledge
15:24and prophecy about those specific people. Um, and then that same leader has also allegations of,
15:32of sexual abuse. Now that could refer to two different people that could refer to Sean Bowles
15:38or that could refer to my dad. I believe that it's probably referring to Sean Bowles because
15:43Sean Bowles was a larger, there was the video that, um, uh, Mike Winger put out that really clearly,
15:51um, got, um, got Bethel riled up. Um, so I'm pretty sure that it was referencing, um, Sean Bowles.
16:00Again, it could, the fact that it could also reference to my dad is, is just, uh,
16:06an eerie, um, is it, it's bizarre and, and unfortunate that there are multiple individuals
16:14who directly fit that MO. Um, and then the next one was clearly about Ben Armstrong,
16:23a pastor on staff who was recently accused by an intern, um, that, uh, he, well, I'm not actually
16:30not going to reference exactly how he, he said it. Um, but we've referenced the Ben Armstrong one.
16:36So, um, Alex asks, asks Jen about these two situations. And then I'm going to just read her
16:47first, the first section of her response. I'm just going to read it verbatim. I thought about
16:52how I was going to introduce this. Um, and I was listening to it back. I listened to it again
16:57this
16:58morning too. And I was taking notes and I was taking notes on every single sentence she was
17:04writing. And I was like, I might as well just read the exact, uh, thing that she said. So again,
17:11asking about two very serious situations about people who are heavily involved with Bethel, um,
17:19having both sexual and prophetic, um, abuse, uh, accusations, credible, very credible,
17:30believable accusations by multiple, like, uh, individuals, not just a single individual.
17:38And this is how Jen responds. She says, tough stuff. That's what I'd say at the top. It's just
17:45tough. And I know and love the people that are accused. And I think at the end of the day,
17:50humans are humans. And for me, the tough part is that oftentimes people only hear the internet.
17:57They only hear one side of the story. They only hear what someone who wasn't even connected to
18:02the experience is saying about it or what they've heard. Or, uh, oftentimes it's just one side of the
18:08story that is broadcast. And that's really painful.
18:10Yeah. As I said earlier, whenever you try to make the argument, you only heard one side of the story
18:16that just doesn't work with abuse victims. Yes, it may be one side of the story, but if they've been
18:22abused, it doesn't matter. The other side of the story, that's really the problem here. But again,
18:27go back to the group think mindset, the way that the mind has been wired in these movements,
18:33you can't let the so-called anointed ones by God, you can't let them come under any attack.
18:39So you have to defend the so-called anointed ones at the expense of the victims. And for me,
18:46I just can't imagine a movement like this where the victims are further victimized.
18:51Whenever you try to think about what is a healthy church, there's no way that you can even call it
18:57a healthy church. Whenever victims are further victimized by being in the church or being even
19:02loosely connected to the church, it's just simply not what church is meant for. Whenever it gets to that
19:08level, instead of the biblical model for the church, where the church is made for the people,
19:14in this case, the people are made for the church, and you must defend it at all costs.
19:18That is just not what church is for.
19:21I mean, to begin calling it tough stuff, you got to be super tone deaf. It just seems very minimizing
19:29of it. She says, I know and love the people that are accused. Well, the victims are all Bethel
19:37people. Every single one of the victims was a part of the Bethel community. I mean, I think that with
19:44people like my dad and Sean Bowles, there were other victims who weren't necessarily directly
19:50involved with Bethel, but everyone who, or there were several individuals, I will say, who were either
20:00on, some were on staff at Bethel, some were long-time members of the congregation, and all of them, to
20:08some
20:08extent, were drawn to the Reading area because of Bethel. Like, that's why they were there. Maybe they were just
20:18there for a season, and they weren't long-time, you know, church members of Bethel, but this was
20:25all people who were in this sort of scope of Bethel's community. So, the fact that she immediately
20:33says, I know and love the people that are accused, I think that it's just so, so, she's immediately
20:41telling on herself, and I don't think she has any idea that she's doing this, but this is, like, if
20:48you're, even if you have just a quick PR discussion, someone would tell you, well, say that you love
20:56and know both the people, everyone involved, just use the term everyone involved, which, saying that
21:03you love the accused is probably not what you should be doing anyway. I love the accused. I love my
21:09dad.
21:10That's not what I'm saying in these situations, because I understand that this is not what this
21:17is about anymore. Whether or not I love my dad has nothing to do with what he has done, and
21:25if I
21:26can get on here with you or speak out loud to Minnie or call up Bill and call up Chris
21:34and talk about
21:36the failures that my father's doing and how that is impacting people in the Bethel community,
21:43then, like, I don't want to hear Jen Johnson talk about how she loves the accused. Like, it's just so
21:49ridiculous, and specifically that the framing is around the accused and not the victims.
21:59So then, end of the day, humans are humans. Boys will be boys. This is just the people do these
22:05things. No, they don't. They really don't. I've said this before with you, John, and I've said it on
22:13the podcast many times, but, like, people will try to, this is one of the tropes, is they will try
22:20to
22:20minimize the failures of the leadership as, hey, we all, we all fall into sexual sin, or we all have
22:34temptations, or we all have, do this, and humans are just humans. At the end of the day, Jesus is
22:39good,
22:40and he loves us, and he redeems, but we're all human. We have all sinned and fallen short of the
22:45glory of God. She absolutely says that later in this, specifically. No, no, we don't all use our
22:55power and authority to manipulate people to take sexual advantage of them. In fact, very few people
23:01in the world do that. Now, I'm not, I don't disagree. There's a lot of abuse. There's a lot
23:06of manipulation. There's a lot of times people will take advantage of other individuals. Like,
23:11I, I certainly would not be considered an optimist about the human nature. You know, I've certainly
23:19have my doubts about human beings in general, and, and the failures of human beings in general.
23:26But it is a ridiculous notion to think that the actions of Sean Bowles, or my father, or
23:37allegedly with Ben Armstrong, are something that happen that ought to be, or are that commonplace
23:46in churches or communities. They're far more commonplace than it should be, but no, this is
23:54not something that happens every day, and it certainly shouldn't. And it's not a, you know,
24:00you got upset, and you were impatient with your child when you should have been patient.
24:06I'm a teacher now, so, you know, there's certainly times where I'm like, man, I could have been more
24:11patient with my students. I could have come with my lesson plans a little bit more prepared.
24:16Well, that's just it. I mean, how do you prepare for the unpreparable? You know, whenever you've got a
24:21movement that is claiming it is a movement by God, and the people who are in it are anointed,
24:27and not just the leadership, but all the way down to the elders who are in the, it's a movement,
24:32it's a movement by God. Otherwise, you would just go to a normal church down the road, right? Why
24:37would you go to a church where this kind of thing is happening? The people have to defend the movement,
24:41and it's indefensible. That's really what this comes down to. And there's such a conflict, too. I
24:49mean, the doctrines themselves, if you, and I won't go too far with this, but when you study out how
24:55the movement has treated sexuality, and then to learn that many of the people who are training the
25:03rank-and-file members in the movement are violating their own rules and laws on sexuality,
25:09this turns, to me, this just turns into such a big, huge problem, and it's indefensible.
25:14There's a scale of things, right? Your conduct, and I think that this is part of the strategy of the
25:25community in general, of like, I mean, think that this latter rain movement, Bethel, is probably one
25:33of the most intense communities in the United States around sexuality, specifically, like, about
25:42obviously very anti-LGBTQ, but, like, you can also have people within those communities, to some
25:48extent, who are extremely, like, you know, obviously, no sex till marriage, stay faithful, like, the
25:55sexual purity is in the charismatic, the larger charismatic world. I mean, that is probably the
26:05most hammered, um, thing throughout the entire, um, community, and I think that this is in part,
26:14like, this, this, that it's to make it seem like everyone's failing.
26:19Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern
26:24Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter rain, charismatic, and other fringe movements
26:30into the New Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical
26:35Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the
26:43compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,
26:49with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and
26:56documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to
27:02the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always,
27:08be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
27:13On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
27:18I don't talk about this much on the podcast, because there are people who attack anything that you
27:24say personally, but I loved my grandfather. I really did. And my grandfather was the pastor,
27:30the head pastor at William Branham's Branham Tabernacle for almost 50 years. He was the face
27:37of the movement. He really was. And I was close to him. I remember doing things with him that, you
27:44know,
27:44grandson-grandfather relationship that everybody dreams of having. Well, it was a little bit robbed
27:51from me because he was so busy as part of the movement. But the moments that I had with him,
27:56I did cherish. He was, he was what I felt to be a good man growing up. I knew him
28:02from the personal
28:04side. There was a public side to my grandfather. And I, I clearly even growing up, I separated the two.
28:11I knew the personal side of him. And I would say that he had a genuinely good heart. He was
28:16a caring,
28:18loving grandfather. He really was. But I was faced with the problem after leaving the movement of
28:26learning that there was another side to my grandfather. And my family witnessed this.
28:31Whenever we first left, he came down really, really hard against us just for questioning.
28:36In fact, whenever I contacted him and I was talking about questioning the movement,
28:42he not only cut me off from the group, but he cut my wife and children off from the group,
28:47not even knowing if they were questioning. So because I raised the question,
28:52like we talked earlier about the edits, I became part of the story. He just, he didn't just cut me
28:57off. He cut my family off. And only in my opinion, and I'll never know because he's no longer living.
29:04I can't ask him why he did it. But in my opinion, he only did it to suppress the questions.
29:09And it didn't work, obviously. But I loved my grandfather. I also had to come to terms with
29:18the fact that my grandfather supported the abusers. And again, I don't talk about this much. I don't
29:25want to go too far with this. But I came in contact with multiple families who mentioned that they were
29:31suffering from abuse. And I won't go into the details of that abuse, but they talked about it.
29:38And in some cases, there were even some records that I was able to come across.
29:44This was problematic. I remember clearly whenever I started talking to the people who were victimized
29:52and in certain situations, the person who was abusing them was supported over the victims.
29:59And they were told that if they tow the line, if they stay in line, then this won't happen.
30:03It's because they strayed from God's will or whatever was the nonsense that my grandfather gave them.
30:10I remember the first thought that come in my head was not, let's defend my grandfather,
30:16even though I was in the movement. The first time I ever heard anything like this,
30:21my first thought was, oh my gosh, what did this do to you? I felt so sorry for the victims.
30:29Even though I was in the groupthink mindset, which is a little bit odd. I know that there
30:33are a lot of people that they can't help it. They're in the groupthink mindset. But that was
30:37my thought, the victims. After I escaped and started hearing more stories like this, my grandfather
30:43apparently had two sides to him. It was very sad. I had to come to terms with the fact that
30:52whenever there are cases where there's a victim, you can't support and defend the people who are
30:58upholding the abusers. It's wrong. There are no two ways about it. I did love my grandfather,
31:04just like Jen said. I love some of the people who were causing true harm in the movement,
31:10but that doesn't separate the people who are being victimized. It does not separate it. I can't stand
31:17for somebody who's being victimized to be further victimized. In fact, that's why I do what I do.
31:23This podcast, all of the stories that we have, this is because there are voices that are unheard
31:29who are suffering. And the leadership does not care about those suffering. The first inclination,
31:35just like my grandfather's, let's cut them off. Because if you cut off the people who are being
31:40victimized, then suddenly the rest of the group doesn't have to think about it. And I say, no,
31:46that is not how church works. If you're doing this, this isn't church. This isn't a movement
31:50by God. This is a movement by Satan himself.
31:53Yeah. And this idea that loving the accused means that you don't take serious the accusation. I mean,
32:07the whole point is that because I love my dad, I mean, one, it's not just about my dad. There's
32:13other people who are involved in his situation, like speaking about his situation. My actions are
32:20not just determined by my love for my dad, because there's other people that you love,
32:23you care about, and there's other people who are affected. But even just, if it was just about my
32:29dad, like it, you, like you said that I, we have had loved ones who have had their worst tendencies
32:39built up against enabled because of a system, a broken system that intentionally is structured in
32:49a way to do this. So something needs to be done for it, even for the sake of the abusers.
32:59I mean,
32:59even for their own sake, the accountability is literally the only thing that will bring
33:05restoration. And that's not like a, just a spiritual perspective. That's just a natural,
33:11like I've seen the degration of my dad's mental health and his, just so his, his life in general,
33:20due to poor and sinful, I guess. I don't know what the right word for it is, but because of
33:29the
33:31decisions that he has made, he has just further descended into a sense of madness in some respects.
33:39And the only way that that would have ever been intervened, you know, or stopped was if he was
33:47held accountable for the things that he was doing, because it was clear that he was not going to hold
33:51himself accountable for these things. And so I know, certainly I was hoping that me speaking out would
33:57help bring some of that accountability and it didn't. Um, I mean, maybe to some extent,
34:03I mean, it is certainly not in a way that he is changing any of his, uh, life or, or
34:10taking
34:11accountability for his life, but, um, at least it, it helped keep the wake of those who are suffering
34:20in the sort of the wake of his, his abusive decisions. Um, it minimized that, but yeah,
34:27I'm opening up more than I usually do, but there is another aspect of this that people don't really
34:33think through. So whenever you're in a movement where the victims are further victimized, it's very
34:38easy to see that there's a problem there, but think of the people who are not victimized, look at the
34:45situation and think of it from the perspective of a person who's watching all of this unfold, but is
34:51struggling, heavily struggling mentally, whatever is the issue that they're having. I also have a
34:57family member who saw no pathway forward. He, he was doing well in school. He was well loved, respected
35:06by everyone, but he had hit the place in his life where he, he was suffering with some mental health
35:13issues. He was not able to continue in the way that things were continuing and saw no way out.
35:22And that's, that's the people that my heart bleeds for people like this. And I'm, I'm trying not to
35:28break up, but people like this, they're struggling. They're in a movement where there is no way to go
35:36forward. If there's an issue, there is nobody that you can go to and say, Hey, I need help because
35:43I, whatever's the issue. I need help because of this issue that I have. If you're in a movement
35:48and the movement is by God and God is making all of the movement, all of the ebbs and flows
35:53of the
35:54movement to be supernaturally anointed, which is what we grew up with. What happens whenever something
36:00is not, that's really the problem here. What happens when there's not, it could be somebody that's
36:05victimized. It could be something simple as just some life struggle that somebody has that they can't
36:10overcome. Well, if you go to the movement and you can't overcome it, well, do you have a demon?
36:15That's, that's really where this ends up with. What we're talking about here is the same thing,
36:22but in a different way. They're looking at the people who are accusing the people that we're
36:29talking about it, whether they did it or not, the people who are accusing them are demonized. And so
36:36whenever you have a problem in this type of movement, whenever you are struggling, your first
36:42thought is, well, what if they think I have a demon? And then suddenly that voice becomes silent. A voice
36:47crying out for help, a voice who needs help, can't get it. That's where, that's where this whole church
36:54model that they have created, and not just this group that we're talking about, I'm talking about every
36:58group that I've examined in, in the website that has developed from this Branhamite thing.
37:05They have a structure that is not a healthy church because in most cases, not all, but in most cases,
37:12you feel as a person who's struggling, you feel like you can't get help. And that's not what church
37:18is for. Church is to help those who are in need. It's to pick up the lowest center and lift
37:23them up,
37:23not to despise the lowest center, not to, you know. In this case, they're trying to flip it on
37:29its head by saying, well, that's what you're saying about the accusers and the accused.
37:34They're trying to say, well, you can't pick them up as the lowest center. But no, think about all of
37:40the other people who are sitting there. Whenever you have somebody who's in leadership that you're
37:44defending in this way, now the people who are struggling, the people maybe who are sinning,
37:49they feel like they can't come forward because there is no room, there's no variance for something
37:55that isn't part of the movement. And that's not the structure of a church. Yes, maybe the accused
38:01are sinners, but take them out of leadership, get them out of, get them the help that they need,
38:07and then show instead as a church, show as a healthy church, yes, we see that there's a problem here.
38:13Let's take them out. Let's get them the help that they need. But they shouldn't be in leadership
38:17if other people are at risk. She said that it's tough that, uh, often times people only hear the
38:23internet. They only hear one side of the story. They only hear what someone who wasn't even connected
38:28to the experience is saying about it. This makes me so, so angry. And, um, I, I actually looked,
38:40um, well, I got her phone number. I asked someone for her phone number to talk about this
38:46to, I don't know whether or not she ever got my message, but, um, I think that this is really
38:52a disgusting thing to say. Um, because, and like, I take personal umbrage to it too. Like
38:59it is personally offensive to me because a few different things. One, there's this idea that
39:06people who are saying things on the internet are not connected to what's going on in, in the real
39:13world. Like these are just, you know, outside voices who heard a rumor, who picked up the rumor,
39:19and then are talking about it, who have never met any of these people. Um, the only people who have
39:26been talking to the victims are people on the internet so far, right? The only people who have
39:32actually been giving, um, time of day to the genuine actual victims as someone who has, is directly
39:44involved in this. I know that it was not, um, Bill Johnson. It was not, um, Chris Fallatin. It was
39:53not Jen Johnson. It was not these people who seemed cared, who seemed like they cared or were interested
40:00in the stories that I was giving the stories that my father's, uh, uh, other victims were giving
40:07that. Um, I, and I spoke to some of Sean Bowles victims. I mean, overwhelmingly the, the only times,
40:16like I did talk with Chris Fallatin and I had one single email exchange with Bill Johnson in both cases,
40:24it felt like damage control. It was, the interest was not in the victims or the people who were involved.
40:32Um, so when we talk about connected to the experience, you know, who is not connected to the
40:38experience is Jen Johnson. She is not connected in any way to these experiences because she has already
40:44said it. She is identifying with the accused. So she's connected with them. She has history with them.
40:51She has relationship with them. She has seen how that they have been able to boost their conference
40:58numbers and sell more tickets to their, you know, prophetic conferences. Has she been actually
41:06connected to the people? Certainly not in the case with my dad, um, whether or not with, I mean,
41:13I'm sure that she probably was closer to, to Ben. Um, but you know, how connected is she actually to
41:21them?
41:21I don't know. Is she connected at all to the victims? Has she shown are any of the victims of
41:28these, um, uh, abusers have any of them felt like, you know what, Jen Johnson heard and understood the
41:36situation that I was in. I would go so far as to venture a guess and say, no, I certainly
41:42know the
41:43answer is no with the direct victims that I have spoken to, which is much more than she has spoken
41:49to.
41:49I will say. Like I said, whenever I started to learn that my grandfather was supporting people
41:55who were abusing their family members, my first thought was the victims. Suddenly I feel like I've
42:03loved my grandfather, but human nature, you can't help it. Well, oh my gosh, you're, you're hurting.
42:09You're, you're bruised. You're bleeding. Let me help you. Let me lift you up. That's,
42:13that's human nature. That's just part of the human instinct to help another human.
42:18And it goes to show me that within this movement, whenever you have this situation where you're
42:24faced with that contradiction, is an anointed by God, are the, is the leadership part of a
42:30movement by God, is God controlling every aspect of the movement or is there really a victim?
42:36Whenever the first thought is to go towards defending the people who are part of the movement,
42:41it shows that there is a level of mind control. Now I can't examine Jen and, and determine what's in
42:47her head, but I can say that if you look outside of this, look at all of the different examples
42:52that
42:53we've given, what happens is the people are faced with the conflict in their head. And rather than take
42:59the human instinct, which would be, let's support the victims. Let's lift up the victims. Even if
43:05they're in the wrong, even if the victims are in the wrong, you still, it's a church, you lift them
43:11up, you help them. I don't care if it, so in this situation, if every single person who is accusing
43:19is in the wrong, it doesn't matter. The leadership should be abhorred that this could even take place.
43:25Let's work with the victims. Let's help them out. Let's lift them up. Let's encourage them.
43:30Let's bring them back into love and healthy, a healthy church. Let's bring our church to a healthy
43:36church. Whenever you don't have that, it shows me that you have just defied human nature, because
43:42every human wants to help another human. I can't imagine a scenario where a church, a healthy church,
43:48can let this continue in the way that it is. Something has to change. Something has to give.
43:53And for me, like you said earlier, it starts with accountability. You have to be accountable.
43:59You have to show openness. You have to show transparency. And you can't keep supporting
44:05people who are, in some cases, some of the names that we've discussed, they have been clearly proven
44:11that there were problems. I'll just say it like that and keep it safe for YouTube. There were clear
44:18problems and the problem makers are the ones who are defended.
44:23So there's this idea that the people who are talking about it are not connected, which again,
44:30as someone who is one of the voices speaking out, I mean, is literally about my dad. Like it's so
44:38frustrating because I don't know who the hell she's talking about in general, because is she talking
44:45about Mike Wiener? Because Mike Wiener interviewed me, talked to Bob Hartley's son. He interviewed
44:54Michelle Seidler, one of the victims that had come forward about my dad and spoken with and
45:01talked to many of the different victims of my dad. He spoke with, I know many of the victims of
45:10Sean Bowles. I can't remember all what is public and what is not. So, I mean, you can see, he
45:15did
45:15this six hour video about Sean Bowles and my dad and what was going on with Bethel. It was incredibly
45:21well researched. And you know what? I felt like Mike Wiener cared about me. I'm not saying that Mike
45:26Wiener handled it perfectly. And I, you know, there's some philosophical disagreements that I have
45:32with Mike Wiener and certainly spiritual disagreements, but like he cared about it. And
45:38he clearly has some sense of like, this feels like injustice. And so he's going to speak with
45:45the victims and try to get, um, clearly what's to the bottom of things, not fabricating anything,
45:51right? Not going on a witch hunt just for the sake of like boosting his numbers. And he was the
45:58only
45:58person who was giving a platform to the, to the abuse or the, uh, victims. This is another thing.
46:04Like there's this question of like, well, they're talking on the internet. I love to give me an
46:10invitation to go speak at Bethel. I would love to come to the Bethel leadership and I would love to
46:16explain to them how I saw my father abuse their system. And I saw them abuse my father to use
46:24this
46:24sort of like toxic, um, codependency where they were helping him fabricate this persona and how it
46:34was extremely toxic, how only testimonies like they were, they were no testimony was weighed. He was
46:41saying ridiculous stuff from the pulpit and no one was slowing down and checking him on any of these
46:49things. And then he made a complete farce of the prophetic movement in general, which I, many others
46:56were doing. So maybe the prophetic movement in general is just farce, but that's, you know, I,
47:02I could speak and I would have loved to. And in 90% of other situations, you would think that
47:08like,
47:08oh man, if it was only my dad who was deceiving people, people would have asked me about it and
47:15asked
47:15like, oh, how can we prevent this in the future? No one's asked me how they can prevent it in
47:19the
47:20future. And like, I know that I'm coming from a very personal perspective and it's not about me
47:25and it's not about my dad and there's other victims, but I, I mean, this is the perspective
47:29that I have. And so this is where I'm, I feel very confident. Um, like I, the only times I
47:35get this
47:35worked up is because I directly know the situation that I was involved in. And that's why, um,
47:41I'm getting so intense about it, but like, when we talk about speaking on the internet,
47:46I'm especially in this case, I mean, with Ben Armstrong, the most prominent person who I know
47:53of who was telling their story was literally the victim of Ben Armstrong who went on the wake up and
48:00win podcast. And she told her story. So what the hell does Jen Johnson mean when she says these people
48:06are not connected to it? Who is she talking about? Because in this situation, it's not,
48:13it's not somebody from a different religion, different community coming and talking about
48:18what's going on. It is literally the victims of the people who are abused. Like it is individuals
48:24like me who grew up meeting with Bill Johnson and having back room, you know, like it's seeing
48:30the inner workings of the church. I could not be possibly more connected to what is going on
48:37at Bethel. And yet she has the audacity to say these people are not connected. And truly it's only
48:47because there's just zero outlet for anybody to speak up, um, in any sort of accountability sense,
48:56um, publicly within the church community. Like there's just no method for that. So the only
49:02other method is to go online and use social media. It's just the only other way.
49:06Pete I don't talk about doctrine much because there are people who are better suited for that
49:12than me. I usually stick with the history, but in this case, think about this, the doctrine of the
49:18fivefold ministry in the way that the movement has presented it, not in the way that the Bible has
49:23presented it, but in the hierarchical way that this movement has presented it, it is the root cause
49:29of everything that we're seeing right here. There is a passage in Ephesians that talks about the
49:34apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers. Yes. But in the Bible, in the biblical model,
49:42they're all equal. There are people who are working in their role in the church to help other people
49:49and take apostle. Apostle is somebody who is sent out with authority. If you really read and understand
49:56what the Bible means, there can be no modern apostles because the apostle had to be somebody who had
50:03direct contact with Jesus. So there were an initial set of apostles and they went out. And then from there
50:09grew the evangelists, pastors, teachers, etc. These apostles never go out. They stay at their church and
50:16build their kingdoms, right? It's like a game of thrones. But because they have set and established
50:22that model. So Ben's position as prophetic overseer or something like this, he's part of the prophet role
50:29of that hierarchy. So in the pyramid, he is in the tier up here and the rank and file members,
50:35including victims, are down here. That's really the problem. The leadership has to uphold the leadership
50:42because it's a pyramid. You pull the bottom out, the pyramid topples. That's what this is. It's a
50:48pyramid strategy of church. And for me, that, doctrinally speaking, that is the problem. Whenever
50:54you have a doctrine that enables people to become victimized, instead of lifting the church up,
51:01whenever you have a doctrine where even if the person claiming to be a victim is wrong can't get the
51:07help that they need, it's not a church. That is not what church is for. Church is to help people,
51:13to help Christians grow as Christians. And if you have a situation where you're going to say, okay,
51:18this segment of my church, I'm not going to help them. But this other segment that's in the leadership
51:24tier, I'm going to at all costs defend it. It's a game of thrones where you're at all out war.
51:30And that is not what church is for. The question is, Jed, how do we solve this? How do we
51:37move
51:37forward in such a way where this pyramid structure that has, it started before Branham, but Branham
51:44really helped spread this thing. How do we take something that has for decades, over 50 years,
51:52has grown and developed into empires where the empire itself is the focus, not Jesus, not the Bible,
52:00the empire is the focus. How do we stop it? How do we change things in a way where this
52:05doesn't happen?
52:06The only way is to talk about it is, I mean, that's why, largely, that's why I come on this
52:14podcast with you is, I mean, other than just hanging out with you and getting to see you, which is
52:19the
52:20other primary reason. But it's to, no one would know about many of the abusive things and the
52:30abusive culture that is going on in these latter ring communities in general, because there's no
52:38method of speaking about it that will ever come out publicly within the community. So there needs to be
52:46things like this. And I wish that there was things like this for when I was young, so that I
52:53could
52:53have seen the sort of historical precedent and seen some of the tropes and the ways that
52:58what I was experiencing had happened before. So, I mean, I think that's why we share.
53:07Absolutely. Like I said, it's why I do what I do. There are so many people that are bleeding.
53:12They need help. And my podcast, if you are unaware, whenever I have the stories on Friday,
53:18where everybody shares their story, my podcast is open to anybody who has escaped. I don't care
53:22your story. I don't care which direction you've went. You have a story to tell because you're a
53:27voice that's unheard. And many people have actually left Christianity because of these voices that are
53:33being silenced. And for me, that's wrong. It is about what you said. It's about the transparency.
53:38It's about letting the voices be heard. It's not about silencing the voices. This isn't a
53:43what happens in the church stays in the church. This is a problem that needs to be rooted out.
53:51And even if the victims are wrong, if you're listening and you're part of this
53:56NAR movement leadership, if you think that just because a victim is wrong that you can't help them,
54:02you need to reevaluate whether you should be sitting in a position at church of leadership,
54:08because that's not what leaders do. That's not how leaders act. So thank you so much for doing this,
54:13Jed. My pleasure. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information,
54:17you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branum.org. For more about the
54:21dark
54:22side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion,
54:25From Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
54:30With only one of our friends, we listen to our story and bilmiyorum. In the Free
54:39UFP-WKW are one of our喜�-inha songs,üreilds. For more or more than two things, we have
54:46as well as well as EOD dying, poor obrig but regret most. We won't be doing that. You see
54:47an Ew神-魔法 Recognition, April 19th, April 19th, April 19th, April 19th, April 19th, April 19th night.
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