- 2 days ago
John and Franny continue their discussion of deliverance ministry, Randy Clark, Toronto Blessing influence, Bethel, inner healing systems, and the wider Charismania network. They examine how revival culture can create spiritual fear, emotional dependency, exaggerated healing claims, and a cycle where people are taught to search endlessly for demons, curses, soul ties, generational bondage, and hidden spiritual causes.
The conversation traces connections between Randy Clark, Rodney Howard-Browne, Toronto, Bethel, deliverance manuals, Freemasonry fears, denominational-spirit accusations, and high-control religious environments. John and Franny also discuss how children raised inside these systems can lose critical thinking, personal identity, and trust in ordinary Christian life while being pressured to perform spirituality through manifestations, healing claims, and breakthrough language.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The conversation traces connections between Randy Clark, Rodney Howard-Browne, Toronto, Bethel, deliverance manuals, Freemasonry fears, denominational-spirit accusations, and high-control religious environments. John and Franny also discuss how children raised inside these systems can lose critical thinking, personal identity, and trust in ordinary Christian life while being pressured to perform spirituality through manifestations, healing claims, and breakthrough language.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:31Hello, welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Franny Nance, former
00:00:46member of Charismania.
00:00:48Franny, it's good to be back and to continue on our discussion about deliverance ministry.
00:00:53It is such a crazy thread that's woven through, and I don't know if you've watched the comments
00:00:58or not, but you have these people that are angry that deliverance ministry has destroyed
00:01:03their lives, and then you have this other group that are all excited and trying to defend
00:01:07it, and most of what we talk about is just the facts that are pure, simple facts, right?
00:01:14Well, along the facts, I haven't even shared this with you, I dug out my Randy Clark Global
00:01:20Awakening Ministry Training Manual, and this is, if I was a kid and I was playing Dungeons
00:01:28and Dragons, this might be a really fun book, but for adults, I'm wondering how far you can
00:01:34really go with this and not consider it insanity.
00:01:39Mm-hmm.
00:01:48Mm-hmm.
00:01:49You know, classes are offered, and when I was researching, just kind of looking back,
00:01:55I went on to, you know, Randy Clark's website, and he's got all kinds of, it's just like
00:02:02Bethel, too, like School of Supernatural Ministry, where they're like, you know, we'll teach you
00:02:05how to, walk you through how to do deliverance and healings or whatnot.
00:02:12But based on our, you know, our past conversations, I saw that you shared some topics with me,
00:02:18and one was Randy Clark and deliverance ministry, and that stood out to me because, you know,
00:02:24my family, we went up to Toronto for the Toronto Blessing, that revival, in the 90s many times,
00:02:30and even in the early 2000s.
00:02:33And, you know, during the research, Randy Clark is the one kind of like credited, you know,
00:02:39with the revival kicking off in Toronto.
00:02:43And anyway, it's just kind of interesting, so I thought, you know, we could kind of talk
00:02:46through this and where, you know, who made Randy Clark the authority on deliverance, and
00:02:52where did he get his deliverance ministry influence from, and how did he develop this manual?
00:02:59And if you pull the thread, you can see his, because, you know, Randy's pretty tightly
00:03:05aligned with Bethel, and Bethel has like, I'm sure you've heard of it there, Sozo, it's
00:03:11like their inner healing, and that, they say that comes from, you know, their trainings with
00:03:18Randy Clark, and so it's like, well, where did Randy Clark get his stuff from?
00:03:22And so, anyway, it's just been kind of an interesting thing to kind of pull, you know,
00:03:28pull that thread, so.
00:03:30Darrell Bock And it's such a weird thread to pull.
00:03:32I have been studying everything before the 1980s, trying to piece together basically what
00:03:39happened to the group that I was in that we escaped from, and then there's this weird
00:03:45point in history that not many people talk about.
00:03:48When William Branham died, because of his influence on the entire movement, suddenly it
00:03:54was though there was this dam holding back all of this weird mess, suddenly the dam broke
00:04:00when he died, and it wasn't that he was holding it back so much as once he died, they had
00:04:05to
00:04:06try to figure out who's the next leader, and I don't believe that they ever figured that
00:04:09out, and so what happened is you had this, I hate to say it, there were a bunch of wolves
00:04:15among the sheep, and all of these wolves tried to claim their superior power.
00:04:19I don't know that I would put Randy in that category, but he's the result of some of the
00:04:24things that emerged after Branhamism.
00:04:28Interestingly, the things that emerged after really came from Branhamism.
00:04:33When you think of Randy Clark, you have to think of things like, what's his name, Rodney
00:04:38Howard Brown, I think he is.
00:04:39Darrell Bock Yes, yes.
00:04:40Darrell Bock The holy laughter, right?
00:04:42Darrell Bock Yep.
00:04:42Darrell Bock Well, you can trace the holy laughter all the way back through this group, all the way
00:04:45back to Azusa Street, so it's nothing new with them, but they all carry this lineage, and
00:04:50someone recently asked me, can I make a diagram of all these new ministries, how they were laid
00:04:55back, and I got to think about it one day, and I think I may have mentioned this in a
00:05:00podcast, it would be better just to take a paint gun and shoot this big splatter mess.
00:05:05Darrell Bock One hundred percent.
00:05:07Darrell Bock What happened, as far as what I can tell, when Branham died, the shepherding
00:05:11movement was a bridge to all of these other things happening.
00:05:16When I think of the shepherding movement, I go back to the point in time when Wimber was
00:05:20trying to kind of hold it together, bring unity to the crowds, well, the shepherding movement
00:05:26and plus the unity, once you bring those two together, now you've got unity among the networks,
00:05:33so whenever I think of Randy Clark, I'm thinking more of the network side of it.
00:05:38All these networks emerged, and they're all, they're paving pathways that come out of what
00:05:44Branham and Gordon Lindsay created, but they are somewhat new and different to me.
00:05:49Darrell Bock No, same here.
00:05:50It's interesting.
00:05:51I do want to say, I think people, you know, whatever, people have their opinions, and you
00:05:57can feel defensive.
00:05:59However, it's, this is a hard concept for, and it's like a hard one for me to understand
00:06:04too, but a lot of times in these, especially in these systems, you know, we're not saying
00:06:10like, boy, John Wimber was evil, or like, you know, Randy Clark was scheming, you know,
00:06:17like, how can I make money and, you know, deceive people or whatever.
00:06:22Now, there are some people in this movement that probably are that way, but it's, it's
00:06:30a product, they are a product, like you were saying, of the system.
00:06:33And so, you know, I, you would challenge people that if they feel defensive over, you know,
00:06:39a person like, oh my gosh, you know, John Wimber was amazing, or Randy Clark, you know,
00:06:43I think he's amazing.
00:06:44I'm not saying he's not amazing.
00:06:45What I'm saying is like, these people, they are trained within the system, and they get
00:06:54a level of notoriety, of power, and they might have even, in my opinion, sort of deluded themselves
00:07:01that they are, you know, helping people that, you know, they're, you know, pushing the gospel
00:07:09forward and doing what God's called them to do.
00:07:11But however, like, when you look at the fruit, and actually, I think it was another John that
00:07:17you had on your podcast that was sort of talking about where people, oh, look at the fruit,
00:07:20look at the fruit.
00:07:20Well, the fruit isn't the large ministry, like, or like how much money you're making.
00:07:26The fruit is actually following up on like, how many people actually were like, healed or
00:07:33delivered and then maintained that through your ministry.
00:07:37And I'm sure there's going to be people like in the comments or whatever, like, you know,
00:07:41I received inner healing, and I received deliverance at these, you know, and I was set free.
00:07:45And I would say, like, I have gone through deliverance.
00:07:50I've had, you know, experienced manifestations.
00:07:56And, you know, I would say that I was not like it, it was that it kind of kept me
00:08:02in that
00:08:02loop of that addictive feedback loop or whatever it is.
00:08:07And again, I know that's not something people want to hear.
00:08:09But anyway, so that's kind of what we're unpacking, like a lot of these men and women in these
00:08:15movements, that a lot of times, like you're saying, William Branham died, or whoever, there's
00:08:21a vacuum.
00:08:22And a lot of times, there's always a person, someone.
00:08:26And a lot of times, too, I would say, I've heard you say this too, John, where you hold
00:08:30a lot of the members of the system.
00:08:31It's not necessarily even the leaders, but it's the people who are in these systems that
00:08:35continue to perpetuate it as well, and put these people on a pedestal and look to them.
00:08:41And so, it just kind of continues this or whatever.
00:08:45So, yeah, you know, that's kind of where I'm coming from.
00:08:48It's interesting with Randy Clark, like you mentioned, Rodney Howard Brown.
00:08:52And so, as you know, I'm sort of diving in, Randy credits Rodney Howard Brown with, you know,
00:08:58him receiving the Holy Spirit, and actually, he was, Randy Clark is saying, like, you know,
00:09:03I had to fight like a denominational spirit.
00:09:05God told me I had a denominational spirit, you know, that kept me closed off to Rodney
00:09:11Howard Brown.
00:09:11And so, I'm just like, even that phrase in and of itself, again, I've heard that too.
00:09:17It's like, oh, you have a religious demon or something like that, kind of goes into and
00:09:22feeds into that narrative where it's another way of shutting off your critical thinking,
00:09:25in my opinion, you know, you have a religious demon.
00:09:28It's like, well, I mean, I can ask a question and think something's weird and not like completely
00:09:33dive in.
00:09:33It's not, I'm not sinning and I don't have a demon.
00:09:37So, anyway, I thought that was interesting too.
00:09:39And then, of course, like you were saying, Rodney Howard Brown is connected to Kenneth
00:09:42Hagan, Ramah, you know, all that word of faith stuff.
00:09:47And, of course, Kenneth Hagan then plagiarized a lot of like E.W. Kenyon, I think that's the
00:09:52name or would it not?
00:09:54Um, so, yes, like your paint splatter analogy is perfect because it's just like a big ball
00:10:01of tangled yarn of all these people who can pull a string and that's what was happening.
00:10:05I was trying to like minimize, you know, the kind of reach because I was curious because
00:10:09I've been to Toronto and it was just sort of you follow these different paths and it's
00:10:14like, oh my gosh, you know, Randy Clark was connected to this person.
00:10:17And a lot of, you know, Randy Clark, and we can talk about it more, but he developed
00:10:22his deliverance ministry manuals from a revivalist in Argentina.
00:10:30I can't remember his name, I wrote it down.
00:10:32Um, and he came across that person in Argentina from, I think it was like a professor at Fuller
00:10:42Theological Seminary connected to C.
00:10:44Peter Wagner that then, you know, introduced Randy, you got to see what this guy's doing
00:10:48down in, you know, Argentina.
00:10:50They've had like tens of thousands of deliverances.
00:10:53And so, it's like, of course, I read that and my radar goes up of like, well, how are
00:10:58they tracking this?
00:10:59How do they know?
00:11:00You know, what is, so anyways, it's, you know, um, yeah, there's a lot that you can
00:11:05unpack, but it is kind of like, well, who made Randy Clark the authority on deliverance?
00:11:09And I think what's frustrating too, is a lot of these people in this movement, um, I mean,
00:11:15it's not just the charismatic movement in NAR.
00:11:18You can see it in other dysfunctional systems.
00:11:20Um, they don't necessarily want to be held accountable.
00:11:23So, they're, we'll say, you know, well, I'm not the authority, you know, God brought
00:11:27me this or, you know, this is what worked for us.
00:11:30Well, it's like, well, at some point you do become the authority and have to be held
00:11:34accountable for it because you have developed this deliverance ministry format manual that
00:11:40you then teach to other people that has then influenced other ministries that then
00:11:44they use that to develop their inner healing or deliverance.
00:11:48And then you sell courses and books, you know, on how to teach people, how to walk people
00:11:53through deliverance.
00:11:55And, um, so yeah, you, you should be held accountable for that.
00:11:58And you can't like slough it off with like, well, I didn't say I was the end all be all
00:12:03authority on this, but it's like, we'll look at the fruit of, you know, like where this
00:12:08has developed and, um, where it's gone.
00:12:10I always come at it in a completely different angle because of knowing people who got trapped
00:12:16in the system and the system is really the fault.
00:12:19It's not usually the person, but if you look at the concept of revival, as it is, as it
00:12:26is presented today, you don't find anything like it in the Bible.
00:12:30There's nothing that says you must gather people and have a big revival.
00:12:34In fact, it says where two or three are gathered, I'll be there.
00:12:37And I'm also coming from the perspective of somebody who understands what you feel when
00:12:42you go through these things.
00:12:43I was raised in it.
00:12:45I know what, I know what it's like.
00:12:46You get the, uh, what is it?
00:12:48The dopamine hit that you get whenever this happens and you feel something you really do.
00:12:53And I'm not going to say that it's true or false.
00:12:56What I'm saying is there are people who get so caught up that if it's just dopamine, they
00:13:02can't really recognize it because they're part of the system.
00:13:06Worse.
00:13:06So you talked about the, uh, the tens of thousands of people or whatever in South America.
00:13:12Ministers were doing this left and right because this was a, this was a great gimmick.
00:13:16If you can get a, if you can get an evangelist to go to a nation where there are a
00:13:21large number
00:13:22of poor people and say, we're going to have this big revival, this meeting, there'll be
00:13:29food, drinks, accommodations, et cetera.
00:13:31You're going to get all kinds of people who come just because that's, that's what people
00:13:35do.
00:13:35They want a handout, right?
00:13:37And at the same time, many of those people are very sincere.
00:13:41Some of them may need deliverance from something, healing or whatever.
00:13:45So you have a wide variety of people.
00:13:48Some of those people have the ambition to become bigger than they are and they want to
00:13:53create a name for themselves and they see how easy it is.
00:13:57And this is a system that tells everybody that you too can do this all the way down to
00:14:02the youth.
00:14:03You too and the youth can do this.
00:14:05Well, what that does is it inspires the youth to join and become part of the system and then
00:14:11sell books, sell conventions, just like you're talking about.
00:14:15And from the youth, you probably have a good outlook, a good perspective, but as you get
00:14:20caught up into the system, it is a system that has to continue to grow because the way
00:14:26they pitch the revival movement is that it is a movement that's gaining steam.
00:14:31And so as it's trying to grow, you have to have these massive numbers.
00:14:35If you don't, you're not gaining steam.
00:14:37Everything you said was false.
00:14:38So you have to, I hate to say it, but there are people who are in the movement who have
00:14:43to generate miracles.
00:14:45And we've seen quite a few examples of this.
00:14:48It gets really weird because at the same time, I know that I can point out different
00:14:53things that were staged, different acts that were not real.
00:14:58But the people who are doing it believe they're doing it for a good cause because if they can
00:15:02trick the audience into thinking it's real, then they're tricking the audience into a
00:15:07hype where they too can get some feeling, some dopamine hit.
00:15:11Some people actually do get better.
00:15:13And there is a documentary out there by Darren Brown, Miracles for Sale, I think it's called,
00:15:19where he invites this entire crowd to his faith healing ministry.
00:15:23He's an atheist, but he gets on stage and he does the act.
00:15:26He does the show.
00:15:27And there are people who claim to have been healed by the atheist.
00:15:30For me, it shows that there is a problem in that they're being taught in this system
00:15:36that they have to go to a human source.
00:15:39And that's really not biblical when you think about it.
00:15:42No, it's not at all.
00:15:43And I think that's been a major theme with the various guests you have on.
00:15:48And I listened to your podcast that's so good.
00:15:51And just what you said as far as pointing out, it's the system itself.
00:15:55And the system is broken.
00:15:57You know, yeah, there's a megachurch around here.
00:16:02There's a lot of megachurches.
00:16:03But there's one in particular that, and of course, I live in Northern California,
00:16:07so I'm not that far from Redding.
00:16:09I'm in Sacramento.
00:16:10And so, it was funny.
00:16:12We tried a non-denominational church, and there was, you know, one service where they actually
00:16:20had someone from Jesus Culture, a pastor of Jesus Culture Sacramento come preach, and
00:16:25I was like, we're done.
00:16:28But back to your system thing, it's the idea that people try so hard to defend the system
00:16:34because the pastor of that church was, you know, when the whole, all the revelations about
00:16:40Sean Bowles came out, he was very defensive.
00:16:43You know, he was like, oh, well, this is a net win for the kingdom because, look, like,
00:16:47God's there taking accountability.
00:16:48And I'm like, no, they're not.
00:16:50This is not a net win for the kingdom.
00:16:51But it's basically, it's like the system, and it's kind of attitudes like that that
00:16:55continue to perpetuate that.
00:16:58And I know that's, like, a hard thing for people to hear because I think that's what
00:17:03I've grappled with.
00:17:04Like, growing up, I'm just like, okay, well, someone gave me this prophetic word, and I
00:17:09felt it, and I, like, cried, and I, like, manifested and, you know, really stood on it.
00:17:15Or I was really tormented, and this person prayed for deliverance for me, and I felt the
00:17:21manifestation, and I cried and cried and cried, and, or I saw, like, people going through
00:17:27deliverance or, you know, manifesting, you know, whatever it is.
00:17:32And I've really had to kind of grapple with that because it's like, well, what was that?
00:17:39And this is my opinion.
00:17:41But you do, if you start to research other movements, even outside of Christianity, because
00:17:48that's kind of what I was looking at, too, it's like, well, in this Argentina, it's like,
00:17:52well, 30,000 people were delivered from, well, how do you know?
00:17:56Like, what, and then it's just like, well, what is the, you know, what is the data that
00:18:00you're using to, well, they had all these manifestations.
00:18:03Well, why?
00:18:03And so then I'm like, well, why are these people manifesting?
00:18:06Because I wasn't faking, you know, like, and if you, again, like, there's actually
00:18:12a study, and I'll need to, I'll send it to you, I'm trying to remember it, but there's
00:18:17this cult, the Kundalini Yoga cult, I'd never heard of that, other than repenting for Kundalini
00:18:24Yoga, and like a, whatever, deliverance sheet that I had to read through, and I was like,
00:18:28what is that, but if you, they had similar manifestations in the Kundalini Yoga cult to
00:18:38what Toronto, the manifestations at the Toronto Revival, and that was very interesting to
00:18:47me, and so you do, you can look at that, there is like the mass psychosis where, like, and
00:18:51you've talked about this, too, on your podcast, where, whether it's through music, and whatever,
00:18:56you can make yourself susceptible.
00:18:59Also, if you are, you know, I think what's really evil, too, is a lot of these people,
00:19:06they use religion, it's a deeply held, you know, religious beliefs, a relationship with
00:19:11God, so you go in already to these meetings, or whatnot, with your guard down, trusting
00:19:18these people, well, they, you know, they're, you know, this person that I trust is promoting
00:19:23this person, and so you already go in with your guard down, and then you're, there's music
00:19:28playing, you can whip yourself up into a frenzy, and I know that's hard for people to hear, but
00:19:37it's, it's true, and that's kind of like how, and that's part of the emotional high, that dopamine
00:19:44hit, and that addiction that keeps you caught in that feedback loop.
00:19:48Um, and also, a lot of times, too, people coming here for healing, or deliverance, you are
00:19:56desperate, like, you're at a level of brokenness, and whether you have a lot of trauma in your
00:20:02past, or whatnot, it makes you even more susceptible to that, and so a lot of, in these deliverance
00:20:08ministries, they are untrained, in my opinion, and they're putting their finger on something
00:20:16that is a deep wound for a person that really is, like, a dangerous place to go if that person's
00:20:24not ready to address it, or if they're not trained, like, the person leading the deliverance
00:20:31isn't truly trained, and I think that it makes it worse if you're telling this person, you know,
00:20:38I've seen it, where, you know, a person has been sexually abused in their childhood, and,
00:20:46you know, there, there's a lot of issues after that, that they're dealing with, and they go
00:20:49to these conferences, and inner healing, where, you know, so they're, one, they're sharing
00:20:56very deep, very personal and private information out loud to people, you know, kind of being
00:21:02forced, like, tell me what happened to you, or whatever, and then it's, you know, this
00:21:07person who, whatever, you know, through their deliverance manual is like, okay, well, you
00:21:12have a soul tie, so you need to repent of that, and like, oh, a demon has been oppressing you
00:21:17and attacking you, you know, from this, and you're holding on forgiveness towards that
00:21:21person, it's all these things, and it's, you know, so that person, it does, it dredges
00:21:26up that painful memory, that time, and then it adds a level of guilt, and like, a layer
00:21:32to that person, where it's like, well, gosh, I need to forgive this person, or I'm still
00:21:38dealing with this torment from this incident, and a lot of times, too, with deliverance,
00:21:43it's like, well, you know, we walked you through it, like, you should be healed, and it's like,
00:21:47well, I'm still tormented by this, all right, well, we've got to do another round, and it
00:21:50just keeps you trapped in that, and sometimes I've seen, like, it makes people worse, and the
00:21:55last podcast, we talked and mentioned Dr., well, I hate saying doctor, she lost her
00:22:02medical license, Rebecca Brown, if you Google her, it's like, you know, her books, she wrote
00:22:09a lot about, like, deliverance, and like, her claim to fame was like, I brought, you
00:22:13know, a Satanist or a witch out of witchcraft, and we had to do, like, months of deliverance
00:22:19to get all these demons out of her and break all this oppression, well, that woman ended up
00:22:23losing her medical license, and then she went crazy, she's not, she passed away, but it's
00:22:29like, I truly believe that a lot of that, it does kind of, it perpetuates that mental
00:22:37illness, and it keeps you stuck in that system, and then a lot of times, these leaders, like
00:22:43a Randy Clark, or the people at Bethel, you know, they get to go on with their life, because
00:22:48there are these itinerant ministers, they'll sweep in, do this, you know, deliverance ministry,
00:22:52oh, we can train you, and they, and then sweep out, and then there's no, who, who's
00:22:59left to, you know, pick up the pieces, or, you know, or, or the poor people that are kind
00:23:05of like, well, you know, what was that, or what do I do now, or I'm, I'm, I'm still
00:23:09tormented, and you had mentioned just growing up in the system, and there's a lot of pressure
00:23:15that are put on kids, and, you know, young people that grow up in the system, it's like,
00:23:23well, I should, I should, one, I shouldn't have any problems, because I grew up in this,
00:23:28and I'm equipped with, I know how to do deliverance, I know how to pray for healing,
00:23:32um, and you get the rush and the feedback in these things, because this, these systems
00:23:41also, like, glorify, like, youth, so it's like, oh, this five-year-old, like, come over
00:23:46here and pray for deliverance for this person, wow, look, the same spirit is in, you know,
00:23:50the race crash from the dead is in this five-year-old, and this is amazing, and so then this
00:23:54five-year-old
00:23:55gets put on a pedestal, and there's just this, this pressure of, like, remember when you laid
00:23:59hands on so-and-so, and they were delivered, you know, why, I don't know, so it's like,
00:24:04now you aren't allowed to have any, I don't know, you're just not allowed to be a person,
00:24:08like, figure out who you are, and grow up, and, you know, develop a sense of self, that's
00:24:13what I'm trying to get at, like, I, I wasn't able to develop a sense of self outside of this.
00:24:20I want to go back to something that you said earlier, um, because it ties into what I'm
00:24:25about to say, you're talking about the denominational spirit. That, that was something
00:24:30that actually came directly from Branhamism. When Latter Rain began, what they were trying
00:24:35to pitch to the world was that the original church had been lost to time. The church that
00:24:41existed today, and all of the denominations, was basically not, not a false church, but a
00:24:47false, falsely structured, false belief set of a church. In other words, people who were trying
00:24:53to be Christians who weren't doing a very good job, is what they would say. And because
00:24:59they were doing it in this deliverance ministry style, where everything's an angel or a demon,
00:25:04well, you have to put a label on it, right? So you have to say that's the denominational
00:25:08spirit, which simply means, to somebody who's on the outside looking in, trying to understand
00:25:12all of this mess, it just simply means you're in a denomination, nothing more. But that's how
00:25:17they labeled and branded people. The problem is, you're branding people. Once you say this to
00:25:23people, you start to convey to your audience that that person has an evil spirit on them.
00:25:28And so they treat them differently, they act differently, and you're basically branding
00:25:33other Christians in a way that they can't really recover when you're part of this movement.
00:25:38But there's a reason for that, and it goes back to the fact that they try to label everything
00:25:44as being angelic or demonic, one or the other. It has to be. And so you're creating a very
00:25:50black and white world. In the black and white world, the problem is, there are often a lot
00:25:55of shades of gray. There are rules, don't do this, and you must do this other thing. But
00:26:01then there are exceptions to those rules in real life, because we understand that not everything
00:26:06is as black and white as they want to paint it. So you get caught up into this black or
00:26:11white
00:26:11mindset. You get dumbfounded for the grays. Once you receive – once you get into a situation where
00:26:19you are experiencing a gray that you don't understand, that is where the guru comes into
00:26:25effect – the person who's on the stage claiming deliverance ministries. And so what it does is
00:26:30elevate them to a position where they're really governing the Christian body, and they're the ones
00:26:35who are telling people that those denominations have a spirit. So it's this cycle that once you
00:26:41get into it, it's a system that can't – it's really hard to break. You can go back in time,
00:26:47and you can find that system all throughout history. It predates latter reign. But usually,
00:26:51what's odd about it is, if you study the groups that do it, it's usually the cultish groups and those
00:26:57that end in destruction. And if you study the early histories of each one of those groups,
00:27:02they actually don't start out that bad. They're just slightly off the mark, right?
00:27:07That, for me, is really the problem with the movement as a whole. It's not that it's so bad.
00:27:13It's just slightly off the mark. And what it does is it continues to generate destructive cults.
00:27:18A hundred percent. Yeah, right on. You're just off enough to continue it. And then if you have,
00:27:26you know, anyone asks a question or even poses like, I don't really agree with that. It's like,
00:27:32well, you have a religious spirit. That's why, you know, it's like, well, they have a religious demon.
00:27:38And it's like, well, these Christians are – I thought you said Christians couldn't be possessed.
00:27:42Well, they're oppressed. That's like another thing, too. It's like, oh, well, I guess, yeah,
00:27:46Christians can't be possessed, but they're oppressed. So, this person, you know, has a religious spirit.
00:27:52And it does. It does divide you. And I think as a kid, like too, growing up in it, you
00:27:57then take the
00:27:58mindset of like, well, we – it doesn't leave you open to any sort of like, you know, huh? Like,
00:28:05let me think about this. Like, maybe they have a point or whatnot. It's like, no. You know,
00:28:11they're questioning it. And that means, you know, they have a religious spirit. And like,
00:28:15you don't want that. Like, you want all of God, don't you? Don't you want what everything that God
00:28:19has? And it isolates. And it also gives you that mindset that like, you have special knowledge.
00:28:27And, you know, and that's, if you look at the, you know, Steve Hassan's bite model or whatever,
00:28:32like that's cult thinking. And I know, you know, a lot of people don't like to hear that. You know,
00:28:36it's like, I'm not in a cult. It's like, well, like you can look at those groups and find similarities.
00:28:43You know, when I was researching this, I was remembering – gosh, I was in eighth grade when
00:28:50we went to Toronto. I think it was 95 or 96. So, it was – it had been going for
00:28:55a couple years.
00:28:58And it was just eye-opening as far as, you know, all the weird manifestations you see,
00:29:06whether it's like holy laughter or people making weird animal noises or – it's just – it allows
00:29:13people, I mean, to do really weird, odd behaviors and sort of indulge that. Like,
00:29:21whereas like in normal society, you wouldn't normally allow that or there is some decorum
00:29:27or just like there's just a way of operating in the world. Like, yes, I know, I understand like
00:29:32creativity. But it was just sort of licensing people to just claim like, well, this is a manifestation,
00:29:39like, this is God speaking to me. And so, if you question like, you know, I don't really know if
00:29:45that's God, you know, they're like, well, you have a religious spirit. And so, a lot of times that was
00:29:50sort of the weapon used against anyone that asked any question. And it also, though, it depended on who
00:29:57was in power. Because if the person who's running the meeting is in power and is asking the question,
00:30:03then they're right. But if anyone else is asking like, well, is that really God? Then you are,
00:30:09you know, you have a religious spirit.
00:30:11Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
00:30:16modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements
00:30:22into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham
00:30:28historical research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the
00:30:35compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others,
00:30:42with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and
00:30:48documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the
00:30:54cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always,
00:31:00be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
00:31:06On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:31:11The other thing is, whenever you get to the roots of this deliverance ministry structure,
00:31:19it's not just the good and the bad, the evil and the angel and the demons, this kind of thing.
00:31:24It is all about, what can I convince the people that they have that they don't know they have?
00:31:30For me, that's the funniest part of this. Because there are numerous Bible passages where
00:31:36talks about Christ redeeming us from the law, the curses, all of the different plagues that can
00:31:43plague humanity. We're redeemed of all of this, which is their primary argument from the inception
00:31:49of the movement. They were saying that your atonement is linked to your salvation and you
00:31:53have both, right? But then they tried to undo what they said by claiming that, well, you're sick
00:31:59because you have a curse. You're sick because you have a family member who did this, that, or the other.
00:32:04Well, I can't control my family member, but that's how they do it. I've got in this deliverance manual,
00:32:09one of the things that struck me, which is kind of funny and sad at the same time. I am
00:32:16not a fan
00:32:17of Freemasonry. I think that any secret society should not be secret. There are reasons why that
00:32:24should be. But when people are infected by the movement's indoctrination, it goes beyond what things
00:32:32actually are. And so one of the things that they list here is Freemasonry is actually a religion
00:32:38that competes with Christianity. And it says, basically, if Freemasonry – and I'm reading
00:32:44verbatim – if Freemasonry is present in the family of a person whose healing is difficult,
00:32:49the Freemasonry should be first renounced and all curses related to it be broken.
00:32:55So whether you are in agreement or not about Freemasonry, I don't like it. I think nobody
00:33:01should join it. But I don't think that if you have a family member who was a Mason, I don't
00:33:07think it's
00:33:08going to give you a curse. And if it does, you're serving a God who is so weak that he
00:33:13can't even
00:33:13protect you from what somebody else does. That's the point I'm trying to drive at. And that's just
00:33:18one of many. There are so many different things in here that talk about the curses you can get.
00:33:24I laugh pretty hard. I had to go back and listen again after our last talk when you're mentioning
00:33:29being cursed by witches and things like this. It just blows your mind. To somebody who's never been
00:33:35in this, they would look at this and think, what are these people doing? Don't they realize that
00:33:39this is all a fantasy game that they're in? And truly it is. Now, here's the catch. I know people
00:33:46who get caught up in the system and they truly believe these things that they're saying, but they
00:33:51believe it because somebody else told them to believe it. And it goes through this cycle. Somebody
00:33:57tells their son. Their son becomes an elder, becomes a leader. They start saying it. And then over time,
00:34:03it is a generational curse. That's the irony of this. But it's a curse in false knowledge. That
00:34:09is the generational curse. Oh, that's said so perfectly. Yes, that's exactly what it is
00:34:15in a sense of like a generational curse. And it's kind of the same thing with
00:34:19with, you know, trauma or whatnot. But yeah, I would say Freemasonry. It's so funny you say that. I feel
00:34:28like that has been like the buzzword that has, you know, stalked me and, you know, our family for
00:34:34whatever, however long we've been in this movement where it's like, that's the buzzword, you know,
00:34:38oh, they have Freemasonry in our background. And, you know, it is, it's like, if why, you know,
00:34:43I have no control over my great great grandfather being a Mason. So, but now I'm not receiving healing
00:34:53or, you know, being tormented because of that. Okay, fine. Like, so it's like you go through and
00:34:59we would repent and say, you know, break all these curses and blah, blah, blah. But, you know,
00:35:05whatever, there'd still be another issue. And it's like, oh, you need to break it again. I don't know.
00:35:09And so it's like, well, why do we have to keep doing this? And that's a lot of times what
00:35:12these
00:35:12deliverance, they keep you going. It's like, it's, it does remind me kind of like a multi-level
00:35:18marketing scam in a sense of like, oh, well, now in order to unlock this level, you need to
00:35:23do X, Y, and Z, you know, to go deeper. And it's like, oh, and then you'll be healed. It's
00:35:28like,
00:35:28okay, well, I've done this. I'm not healed or set free, you know. Okay, well, that means that this
00:35:33must be this type of curse or devil. So, now you need to go even deeper, you know, and it
00:35:38just keeps you
00:35:40stuck and trapped in that, in that system, in that feedback loop. And then especially if you're
00:35:48raised in that. Yeah, it's, it's a real problem. And I struggle because I know people that get caught
00:35:54up in the system, as I mentioned. The hard part for me is that whenever people find themselves in
00:36:01that system, they're usually, if they've been recently recruited, they've usually been hurt in
00:36:07some way. This movement attracts people who have diseases, especially the chronic diseases,
00:36:12illnesses, people who have mental health issues. And over time, it creates this collection of people
00:36:20that really are looking for something that the denominations can't give them. So, when they hear
00:36:25phrases like the denominational spirit, it really resonates with them because they came out of that
00:36:29to try to be healed. The problem is, if you run it, the numbers game, the batting average is only
00:36:36like
00:36:365%. There's not a lot of people that actually get healed. You talked earlier about the numbers,
00:36:42the 10,000s. I'm of the opinion that the way that they do this, they are actually counting a
00:36:50legitimate stat, but it's usually the stat of how many people entered the prayer line. Branham would
00:36:56have people take a prayer card. That was one of the old gimmicks of the old days. You'd take a
00:37:01prayer card,
00:37:02you'd fill your name and address, and you'd say you're healed, and he would hold them up and say,
00:37:06look, this person was healed. But they were usually healed by positive confession. They claim their
00:37:13healing. Well, that person claimed to be healed, so I can count them as a number, right? That's the
00:37:17numbers gimmick. They count the healings before the actual healing occurs. And in some cases, I'm certain
00:37:24that there is no count at all. They just look at 10,000 people in a crowd somewhere. But in
00:37:30today's world,
00:37:31they can actually track how many people go through a line with just cameras even. They can count the
00:37:36people. So there is an actual count. But for me, when I started realizing that out of the people who
00:37:43are claiming to be healed that I was reading about in the newspapers, there were people who were actually
00:37:49trying to verify the healings. It wasn't that they were skeptical at all. They just wanted to see,
00:37:55well, if this person claims to do this, I want to see, can they actually do it? And they were
00:37:59finding things like people arriving in stretchers, coming through the prayer line, being healed,
00:38:05claiming their positive confession, but then leaving on the same stretchers that they came in on.
00:38:09So you can't really count that as a healing. But this movement trained the grandparents and the
00:38:16great-grandparents of our generation that that's how you count a healing, if somebody says they're healed.
00:38:22And it's just, it really is an adult form of lying. That's all it is.
00:38:26So here's my argument. Like, I'm, I'm still, I still consider myself a believer. You know, like,
00:38:32I know there are things about God that are, you know, mysterious or, you know, yes,
00:38:40there are spiritual things that you can't always explain or whatever. But I think this,
00:38:45this movement is trying to, um, they just always try to have like an answer in order to keep it,
00:38:53you know, establish their authority to keep their business, I'm sorry, their business going and
00:38:57their profit going, you know, that this is how, um, you know, we have an answer to your,
00:39:03what ails you. It's always Jesus or whatnot. And a lot of times, like, you know, we, I mean,
00:39:09and it's biblical as well. It's like, we live in this world and the world is imperfect. It's
00:39:17atrophying or, you know, entropy, whatever. Um, you know, Jesus talks about that or the Bible talks
00:39:22about that. And so, a lot of times there isn't an answer. Like, there isn't a healing, you know,
00:39:29there is death. Like, there is, um, bad things that happen. Um, and there are science, like,
00:39:36modalities, like therapy or whatnot that you can use that I believe God has given us. Um,
00:39:43but even that doesn't work. You know, I know people who, um, have struggled with, you know,
00:39:50mental illness and they've done everything, you know, like, and even in the world outside of the
00:39:56church, you know, cause like people get into this too. They're, you know, there's like a big movement
00:40:00right now where people are pushing legalization of, um, psychedelics for like medical purposes or
00:40:07whatever, because their studies about, you know, heals PTSD. Okay. I'm not saying that that's not
00:40:11true or whatever, but a lot of times people in this that, you know, um, support that modality of
00:40:19therapy or whatever, it's like, it's the end all like, and you know, that might not work for this
00:40:26person. And like, when you are pushing something is like, this is the answer. Um, it could cause more
00:40:33harm than good. And so, I just, I think that like, it's almost like each person is, is unique and,
00:40:42you know, they're, everyone's healing journey is, is different. Um, and you do sort of, in my opinion,
00:40:49I think you rob people of that relationship with God or of that working out your own healing,
00:40:56you know, emotional or, or whatever it is with, you know, these deliverance ministries where it's
00:41:03like, oh, I've got an answer here. I've got my manual. Okay. Uh, here's, this is, what's your
00:41:09problem. Like, this is how we walk you through it. And cause I have been there. Like I, the minister
00:41:15I interned for, I remember his wife was like, why are you still struggling with this? You know,
00:41:19it's like an eating disorder or whatever. We've, we prayed for you and we talked you through it.
00:41:23And I'm just like, oh, like, I guess there's something really wrong with, you know, I'm
00:41:26thinking like, why am I? So then I'm like racking my brain. I'm like, what door did I open? You
00:41:31know,
00:41:31what did I touch? Where did I go? And like we said, and you know, the last time we met,
00:41:36it was,
00:41:38if you can't pinpoint it on an evil spirit, well, then they change it to like, well,
00:41:43you're just so anointed. Like the devil's just trying to take you out. And it's just like, so
00:41:48you, you literally, at least me as growing up in this, like you're, you're stuck, like you're trapped.
00:41:54Like it feels oppressive because it's like, I have no way out.
00:42:00We've mentioned this before, but an apostle in the Bible is somebody who actually saw Jesus.
00:42:05So it's very difficult to have a modern day apostle, but the way they framed the movement,
00:42:11the reason why that exists is because they're going to New Testament scriptures where people
00:42:17were sick and afflicted and then Jesus came. In today's world, there is not Jesus walking the
00:42:24face of the earth. So if you're sick and afflicted, it's very unlikely that Jesus is going to come
00:42:28physically and heal your body. So they have to go to the passages where the disciples and later the
00:42:34apostles were performing great miracles and convincing people to come to the Christian faith.
00:42:40That's the scriptures that they use, but they're not in that role. So it makes it very difficult.
00:42:45You have to kind of bend the rules of reading the Bible to make that even work. But once it
00:42:51is bent,
00:42:52once you go outside of that framework, now you apply other passages like greater miracles will
00:42:59you do whenever I leave and I send my Holy Spirit. They will say things like, I had more miracles
00:43:05in
00:43:05my ministry than Jesus had. The problem is, if the miracles were real, that would be,
00:43:13I wouldn't say it factual, but that would be somewhat arguable because there is a limited
00:43:17number of people who were healed throughout the whole course of the Bible. But for me, the fact
00:43:24that there is a limited number, it shows that there wasn't a widespread thing where you go to a
00:43:29revival, suddenly there's a Jesus or an apostle and you're going to have these lines of people going
00:43:35through to be healed. That's how the deliverance ministry was framed from its initial form and it
00:43:41just simply does not match at all. So what they're in effect trying to do is they're trying to say
00:43:46that
00:43:47we are today's replacement for these biblical figures. And to a person who's new to Christianity,
00:43:53that might be okay. If you've never read the Bible, maybe that's okay. But once you do read the Bible,
00:43:59you're faced with the question, well, Jesus is the one that was doing that, not the humans. And the
00:44:04greatest miracles were performed by Jesus. Yes, you can pray and yes, where two or three are gathered,
00:44:10we can apply that to ourselves. But I don't see anything in the scripture that says what you're
00:44:14saying, preacher, minister. And you're faced with that question. I remember being faced with it.
00:44:21And yet I was part of the system. So when I'm part of the system and I'm believing
00:44:26and indoctrinated in what they tell me, I kind of just ignore that type of question because that's
00:44:31a critical thought. And more to the point, this is, and this is where I'm headed with this,
00:44:37they can sense whenever you have this type of question, you can, somebody can read your face,
00:44:42you can see that somebody's thinking, they're critically thinking. And then you suddenly say,
00:44:47oh, I'm having a, I'm going to say premonition, because that's what they're really doing.
00:44:51I'm having a premonition, you're doubting, you've got the spirit of doubting. And so what they do is
00:44:57they equate any critical thinking with a spirit of doubting. And the person gets more fear than the
00:45:04question itself, because they, oh, no, I've got a spirit, really, what have I done to myself?
00:45:08And so it turns into this vicious cycle, you want to be healed, you want to critically think you want
00:45:13to learn. And what it does for me, and what it did for me was, it hinders your learning,
00:45:20you can't really learn the Bible like this, you really come to the point where you have to trust
00:45:24what they say about the Bible, because your questions won't, your reading can't really
00:45:29teach you what it says, because they won't allow it.
00:45:33Beth Dombkowski Yeah, it does. It's interesting,
00:45:34it shuts down your critical thinking. You know, when we were growing up, if you said, like,
00:45:40okay, we're gonna have another family prayer time, we have to read through these deliverance cards,
00:45:44and if you complained, like, I don't want to do that. It's like,
00:45:48you have a demonic spirit that's like, oh, you don't want the Lord. So it's like, as a kid,
00:45:54you're like, okay, well, I don't like you want to be like your group. It's like very human. It's
00:46:00like, this is my group. These are my caretakers. This is the community that I'm a part of, like,
00:46:04really don't want to be cast out, you know, so it's like, you know, I okay, like, or it's like,
00:46:11I don't think I have a spirit. I just don't want to do this. But you just sort of go
00:46:14along with it,
00:46:15because it's like, well, you know, what am I going to do? And I'm sorry if I'm taking us off
00:46:22on a tangent, but just hearing you talk about that, you know, and then us sort of looking into
00:46:27this with the deliverance and whatnot. And, you know, I'd mentioned like the Kundalini yoga anyway,
00:46:31because I was like, what is that? And so there's actually a documentary on HBO. It's called Breath of
00:46:37Fire. And it kind of follows this Kundalini yoga cult type thing. And, and one thing I would like
00:46:45to say, like to anyone, people who feel like irritated, or, you know, irked by some of the
00:46:51stuff I say, what has like really helped me a lot? And it's been, like you were saying, like
00:46:56researching other cults, like even outside of like, or high control groups are just and you find the
00:47:03pattern, or the thread. I mean, that's kind of like what, you know, I love history, it's what I
00:47:09studied in college, and that was part of it, you find patterns, you find a thread, and then you kind
00:47:14of pull on it, or you ask the question, you're like, like, this is a totally different group.
00:47:20It has nothing to do with Christianity. But yet, the same system, like some of the same character traits
00:47:26are, I can find that. And so you kind of pull on that. But in that documentary, they were, you
00:47:34know,
00:47:34interviewing parents that had gotten involved. And a lot of times, these people have gotten
00:47:39involved, they're hippies. And it was a long, it's interesting to me, because it's the same time
00:47:43as the Jesus movement. So it's like, where you have hippies that get sucked into the Jesus movement
00:47:47versus hippies that were sucked into, because it was in California. And so you had like these gurus,
00:47:52it's like an explosion of like, just spiritual activity from all different types of groups,
00:47:59or whatever. And so, you know, if you weren't sucked into the Jesus movement, or whatever,
00:48:05you know, it was whatever this guru was. And so, a lot of these people, they grew up,
00:48:10they had their normal life, they went out to California, became hippies, met this guru, joined
00:48:16his cult. Obviously, they didn't realize they're joining a cult. But they had children, and they raised
00:48:21their kids in this. And they, this documentary interviews the adult children, and a lot of the
00:48:28former members who, you know, were adults, and then had kids in the movement. And it's, I could relate
00:48:34to the kids. Because, you know, some of the parents were like, my children don't speak to me anymore,
00:48:41because there was like rampant abuse within this group of the children. And but the parents truly,
00:48:48like, they were true believers, and trusted their guru, and didn't, just didn't even think that,
00:48:56you know, anything untoward would be happening to their children, or whatnot. And it took them
00:49:02kind of waking up. And so, some of the parents who raised their children in it, they've left,
00:49:08but their kids are still in it. So, their kids aren't, adult children aren't speaking to them.
00:49:12Or the parents that have left, their adult children aren't speaking to them, because they left,
00:49:16and were like, how could you do this to me? And then it was interesting, like, hearing some of
00:49:20the adult children that grew up in it, they're like, we didn't know any different. Like, we just,
00:49:25like, we didn't have a choice. Like, you know, and they're like, I'm frustrated, because it's like,
00:49:30you, mom and dad, like, you had a life outside of this, you, you developed a sense of self.
00:49:37And I didn't, like, because this was all I knew, and what I was raised in. And so,
00:49:42when you kind of come out of it, you're sort of, and maybe this is how you feel the same
00:49:47way,
00:49:47too, where it's just like, I don't, you really have to unpack it. So, a lot of times, too,
00:49:52with this deliverance stuff, as I'm sort of like, what was that? Or what, you know,
00:49:59how do you explain that? There is a lot of, like, desire just to kind of know and to understand.
00:50:04And
00:50:05it's, there, it's a, in my opinion, I think that it's a, it's a way that people have maintained
00:50:13control. And they prey on the youth, whether it's like a YWAM or whatnot. And one thing that the
00:50:22deliverance ministry does, it's, it's like this tool that's like, we can, we can fix you,
00:50:28or look, young person, you can have all this power, like, you wield this power.
00:50:34And it keeps you, you stuck and trapped in those, those movements. And like we were saying, too,
00:50:41it's like, it's trapped in that movement, but then the movement itself, those deliverance
00:50:47ministries or inner healing do attract mentally ill people who truly need, like, medical care
00:50:56and support. But then these movements also treat you not to trust anyone outside of it,
00:51:02like, or medical care or whatever it is, that, you know, that it's only through, you know,
00:51:09Jesus and these deliverance movements or whatever. And that, in my opinion, I've seen it where,
00:51:15not just in my opinion, I've witnessed it, where it makes people go crazier or, you know,
00:51:23and more unhinged and attracts more and more weird people.
00:51:30Darrell Bock What it does is it accelerates
00:51:32the issue and compounds it with other issues. We talked, I don't remember if it was you and I or
00:51:37another person, but we're talking about how in this type of ministry, there is a high level of
00:51:44disassociation. You're really trying to involve yourself. You're trying to believe that you're
00:51:49something that isn't there. When you do this and you do it long enough, you disassociate.
00:51:54But not everybody does. There are other people who just get mentally numb. And I'm sure there's
00:51:59a better technical term for this, but your mind becomes numb so much that it's not depression.
00:52:05You don't feel anxiety. You're just, it's like nothing really, your senses don't feel anything.
00:52:11I know countless people who describe something like that whenever I was growing up and I never
00:52:17thought about it. These are the people who would often go to the, you know, the altar calls or
00:52:22whatever. They're trying to get the spirit because they feel like I'm just so numb. I don't feel
00:52:26anything. Everybody else is crying. Everybody else is praying and shouting and I feel nothing. Well,
00:52:32the problem is in some cases, your euphoria is not your neighbor's euphoria. And so you're not
00:52:39feeling what they're feeling. You can't. It's their, it's their emotion. It's their dopamine hit.
00:52:45People who aren't getting that dopamine hit, whether it's critical thinking or whether they're just
00:52:50thinking about something else, suddenly they begin to feel numb. And when they do, they're told
00:52:57over time as this develops, they're told that they have an evil spirit. That's why they can't feel
00:53:01in anything. And then they go back through like in this list, I'm looking through all of the many
00:53:06things that you can do or you can not do and your family can do to keep you out of
00:53:13the will of God,
00:53:15out of this deliverance. And in many cases, like you said, they just simply had a mental health issue
00:53:20and it was being compounded by the movement. I think that for those who wander through this type
00:53:27of movement, just mentally numb, I think it actually can develop into a much more complex type of trauma
00:53:33than somebody who's just suddenly faced with it and gets out. I was, I could probably say I was one
00:53:39of the people who was more mentally numb because there came a point when I just, I wasn't really
00:53:45allowed to critically think. And when you can't, and you have a mind that is analytical, you just shut it
00:53:50off. And when you shut it off, you become numb. Nothing makes, nothing really matters. It doesn't
00:53:56matter if I'm in this group, it doesn't matter if I'm not. And those are the people ironically who
00:54:00don't leave because they, they just simply, they're like zombies. I was like a zombie when I was in it.
00:54:06And if I could do anything to change other people so that they're not zombies in this movement, I would
00:54:11do it.
00:54:12Yeah, that's so funny because it's like I was the opposite. I feel like the more performative, the more,
00:54:19you know, manifestations you saw or felt, the, yeah, but that also is exhausting because that, you know,
00:54:27drains you as well and then keeps you trapped because it's this feedback loop. And yeah, just like you were
00:54:35saying there was a constant like rabbit trail of looking for, well, what's the open door or what's
00:54:43the spirit or who is attacking me. There is a meme going around on Facebook. It's like I saw like
00:54:51a
00:54:51former IHOPer had posted it and it was like, here's your prophetic word. And it was like, you're a normal
00:54:57person. And like the whole thing just goes on. Like you have a normal job. You're not meant to be
00:55:05a
00:55:05world changer. You know, this, this whole thing. And it really speaks to like that generation,
00:55:11like growing up in that where it's like, not everything is spectacular. Like, and if you read
00:55:17the Bible, like you see where it's like your normal life, like you, it's just, you're working out your
00:55:24salvation. You are the Sermon on the Mount type of living or whatnot, if that's, you know, what you,
00:55:31what you want to believe, but it is, it, the deliverance ministry keeps you stuck. It's one
00:55:38of the modalities and sensational tools that like you were saying, it truly, it is a fantasy world.
00:55:45It, it is a fantasy world and it keeps you trapped. It's like, just like you people laugh
00:55:52and they say, oh, it's like Harry Potter, but it is like, I don't know if you've read the books.
00:55:56Like,
00:55:56I wasn't, we weren't allowed to read Harry Potter. But I remember reading it because I was just like,
00:56:01this is ridiculous. And nothing entered me. Although I will say people in this movement
00:56:05would probably be like, she's blinded by the spirit or that came into her from Harry Potter.
00:56:10And that's, what's so frustrating. You can't have a conversation, like a, like an actual,
00:56:16like conversation with someone who's in this movement, because it is just like a person who is
00:56:21in a cult. You, you can't have a logical conversation with like data and data points,
00:56:28because just like someone who's in a cult, like you're not going to convince them with information,
00:56:33you know, whatever, just like Steve Hassan talks about. And so it's the same thing with these extreme
00:56:39charismania, healing, deliverance, you know, sozo, that inner healing, all that stuff,
00:56:45whether it's through Bethel, Randy Clark, Toronto, all of that, you, you just, it's impossible,
00:56:51you can't. And, and they don't want to hear it. And then we'll have an, and that's the thing too,
00:56:56it's like you, they will have an answer for everything. And so it is the most brave thing.
00:57:03I'm not saying like, oh, look, I'm so, we're so amazing. We're so brave. But it is,
00:57:06like, I would challenge someone just to like, if you believe in God, like in Jesus, like he is big
00:57:13enough, like, like you were saying, he's not a weak God that is dependent upon us to like,
00:57:19go through all these deliverance things. It's like, maybe step out of it and, you know, like,
00:57:26allow yourself to do something different or, and there is that you will feel like a come down,
00:57:33weird depression, maybe you'll feel oppressed or whatever, because you're pulling yourself out of
00:57:39a system with that constant, like, feedback loop. I will say, you know, we attended a Presbyterian
00:57:46church, very traditional when we were in Virginia. And I had a hard time going to church. I was like,
00:57:53this is so boring. And, you know, the, the word was good. It was, to me, I was attracted to
00:58:00in the
00:58:00sense that it was safe, like it was a safe community, checks and balances, like, you know,
00:58:06no one's going to be weird or whatever, or at least, you know, there's checks to it.
00:58:10But I, I've really struggled with this, like, what was, how do I talk to God? What is my
00:58:17relationship with God? Because it was always in these grand gestures of like, travailing prayer,
00:58:25crying, you know, worship services where you're worshiping for hours and dancing and crying and
00:58:32singing and, and then kind of stepping, stepping out of that, like, I was burnt out after IHOPKC,
00:58:41completely burnt out. I didn't know it was burnt out. Like, I will, and I, you know, a lot of
00:58:46times,
00:58:46too, and with deliverance or whatever it is, it always puts the blame on the person, like, that's
00:58:51looking for some type of healing or to be set free. Well, you're not walking it out right, or,
00:58:58you know, you didn't hold on long enough. If you just held on long enough, like, your breakthrough
00:59:01would have come, or, I mean, I've emptied savings accounts in my early 20s and teens,
00:59:07in writing my, what I want on the memo line, write what you want on the memo line, you know,
00:59:14whatever. And still, you know, it's like, nothing. So, what it did, what you do is you end up like,
00:59:19being like, gosh, there's something wrong with me, instead of like, maybe there's something wrong
00:59:23with this movement in and of itself. And so, just, and allowing yourself to step back from that
00:59:32addictive feeling, and sitting with, like, that, you know, it's less like an addict when they cut
00:59:39themselves off from something they're addicted to, it sucks. Like, you feel sad, or like down,
00:59:46or empty. There's an empty, and you're looking for that. And so, I think there, you know, there was that
00:59:50period, like, at church where, you know, I'm like, ugh, I just, I can't stand it. So, a lot of
00:59:56times,
00:59:56I just didn't, you know, go. And I think that's fine. You can let yourself do that. You know,
01:00:02God is big enough. Because I have seen, like, through, like, deep friendships that I have,
01:00:08like, through, you know, my husband or whatever, like, the ways in which God has loved me, spoken to me,
01:00:14in very subtle ways through supportive community, and miracles in a sense of a little by little,
01:00:23where I have gotten to be able to critically think, where I have, I do feel like I'm trying to
01:00:31develop
01:00:31a sense of who I am, or whatever, outside of, like, the YWAM, I have KC Extreme, like, where your
01:00:38purpose and whatnot, of, like, going all in with God. So, when we moved out here to California,
01:00:47like, a year and a half ago, we were church shopping, and against my husband's better judgment,
01:00:53we ended up at, like, a non-denom megachurch. They had a really great kids program, and I was just,
01:01:00like, I just miss, like, really good worship, you know, whatever. So, we went, and I, we don't go
01:01:06anymore, but it just, it didn't hit, it felt inauthentic. Like, I don't, and again, I'm not
01:01:12trying to, like, dump on people who love their expressive worship, but it's just been used as
01:01:18such a tool of manipulation in my own personal life, and where I've seen it in other people's
01:01:23lives, where it just keeps you stuck. And then, if you start to follow, pull the thread, you start
01:01:30to see patterns, whether it was in the church's leadership, and like I said, they had, they're like,
01:01:36we're not charismatic, we're not this, we're non-denom. And again, it's this whole deflection
01:01:40of, like, they don't want to be held accountable for anything. But then, when I see this pastor
01:01:45opens his pulpit up to the pastor of Jesus Culture Sacramento, I was like, no, you know,
01:01:51like, no. And it's a, and I, you know, it's just this whole, I think, like, the more you know,
01:01:55and it's just, it was disheartening to me, because I'm like, you know, I don't, I don't know what my,
01:02:02you know, maybe that will never be something I'll return to with, like, the expressive worship
01:02:06or whatever. And I was even telling my husband, I was like, you know, I have to be really careful
01:02:09in any sort of, like, emotional or charismatic church environment, because I can fall back into
01:02:14old patterns of, like, either thinking that, or you learn ways in which, and again, people don't
01:02:20want to hear this, and maybe it's just me, I'm calling myself out. You know, you get attention,
01:02:25too, from the way you manifest as well. And it gives you that, that, that good feeling of,
01:02:30like, I'm special, like, I'm manifesting, you know, I'm getting this attention. It, it, it's that
01:02:37that makes you feel good. Versus, like, I would just argue, I think God can handle if you choose
01:02:45to not do that. Or, like, I read Harry Potter, the whole Harry Potter series, it was awesome.
01:02:52It was a really good book, and honestly, series of books. And I did not get attacked.
01:02:59I did not have paralyzed, you know, nightmare paralysis or whatever. And I think even if I
01:03:06did, like, you know, it's, like, it's, that's not because I read Harry Potter, you know, it's
01:03:12like those that you, you have to train yourself that way. And I would say even in, I remember
01:03:17reading whatever book, which book it was, the second or the third, I don't remember. There's
01:03:21parts in the book where I was really, like, touched, where I was like, this is similar to,
01:03:27like, the servanthood of Jesus. Like, I'm not saying Harry Potter's Jesus, but, like,
01:03:31it's that, like, self-sacrifice for your friends or, you know, greater cause or whatever. And
01:03:37it's very similar to the Chronicles of Narnia. And so, I just, I just kept thinking about
01:03:41them, like, how in the 90s, like, you know, this was demonized. And I'll tell you what led
01:03:47me to read Harry Potter was, you know, growing up was, like, J.K. Rowling was, like, the devil,
01:03:53you know, trying to convert people over into witchcraft and, like, train them, you know,
01:03:57it's a gateway drug into witchcraft. And now we have this, like, spate of, like, kids that
01:04:02are joining, you know, Satanism because of her. But then it's, like, five years, during COVID
01:04:10or whatever, the political right conservatives sort of turned against her. No, no, excuse
01:04:15me, the left, the progressives, like, I guess because she was saying something about your,
01:04:20it's, like, identity politics. And so, then all of a sudden, people on the conservative
01:04:25right were, like, embracing her. And I'm, like, okay. It's, like, the same people that demonized
01:04:32her in the 90s were all of a sudden embracing her. And so, it's, like, I'm reading this girl,
01:04:35this lady's book. I was, like, this is ridiculous, you know. And so, it is, it's, like, the older
01:04:39you get, the longer you've been around, the more you study history, you see these patterns,
01:04:44it, there is a level of, like, freedom that you can have from, and I would just, yeah,
01:04:50from stepping out of these destructive groups and cycles and really learning to trust yourself
01:05:02and trust that God gave you a brain, too. And, like, you can ask questions and it's, it's
01:05:08okay. Well, it's very good advice. Thank you so much for doing this.
01:05:11Thanks, John.
01:05:12Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the
01:05:15web. You can find us at william-branham.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic
01:05:20Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR, available
01:05:25on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:05:27Thanks for joining.
01:05:42Bye.
01:05:43Bye.
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