What Bethel’s Crisis Reveals About Church Power | Ben Armstrong News | Jed Hartley | Episode 598 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Jed examine the latest controversy surrounding Bethel Church, including public allegations involving Ben Armstrong and the broader leadership culture that has drawn growing scrutiny. They explore how terms like "moral failure" can soften public perception, why honor culture can shield influential figures, and how victims can be left without meaningful paths to justice.  The conversation also traces the issue beyond one headline and into the deeper structure of New Apostolic Reformation style authority. John and Jed connect Bethel, IHOPKC, and related movements to a pattern of centralized leadership, miracle-centered credibility, weak accountability, and spiritualized power that can make serious allegations harder to confront.  00:00 Introduction 01:37 Jed Introduces The Bethel Allegations 04:38 Bethel’s Public Framing And The 2009 Incident 07:06 Sarah’s Story And The “Affair” Language 10:57 Bethel, Sean Bolz, And Repeating Patterns 15:00 From “Moral Failure” To Abuse 16:06 Why The Scandal Is Now Part Of The History 18:06 Five-Fold Ministry And Apostolic Authority 21:08 A Movement Designed To Enable Abuse 23:09 Unaccountable Apostles And Protected Leaders 27:24 Affair Language, Consent, And Whitewashing 31:38 Why The Foundation Needs To Be Questioned 33:46 Church Leadership As A Business Structure 35:25 What Good Leadership Should Have Done 37:48 Why People Do Not Simply Walk Away 42:05 Bethel As Brand, Business, And Community 45:07 Miracle Culture And Fear Of Questioning Leaders 49:09 Honor Culture And The Business Of Risk 52:52 Why Victims Have So Little Recourse 57:30 Why “Why Didn’t They Go To Police?” Misses The Point 1:00:51 The System Needs To Change ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org,

00:00:42and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of a false prophet and former member

00:00:47of the International House of Prayer.

00:00:50Jed, I know you and I are going to sound like broken records today.

00:00:53We're going to be talking about yet another scandal that has hit the church, and we're talking today about Bethel,

00:00:59so it's in the eyes of the New Apostolic Reformation, this is kind of a big one, I guess I

00:01:04would say.

00:01:05And it's been ongoing. I had not heard about it until you brought it up, but apparently, as I'm looking

00:01:11through the news,

00:01:12this has kind of been going on since February and has grown to a bit of a head because there

00:01:17are some questionable things that are happening.

00:01:20I'll just say it like that, but anyway, I'll let you introduce it, and it's good to be back and

00:01:25talk about these scandals that just, I don't know, for what reason they keep recurring.

00:01:31It feels a little like the Twilight Zone, like we're getting the, it's just the same story repeated.

00:01:36And that's what, like, I think that as we go, maybe even in future episodes, we could get into more

00:01:46of the details of this scandal that is popping up.

00:01:53But when I've been reading about it and researching it, I actually heard about it several months ago, and I,

00:01:59when I first was listening to one of the victim's testimonies, I had to shut it off.

00:02:05And I think for several weeks, I didn't come back to it because it's just the same story over and

00:02:13over again.

00:02:14And it was so eerily similar to stories with my dad and Mike Bickle and Sean Bowles and Bob Jones

00:02:26of yet another male pastor in the New Apostolic Reformation churches.

00:02:35Well, not even the New Apostolic Reformation, like we're not even casting a wide net.

00:02:39I really have just only been talking about IOP and Bethel, and it's just those two churches that I've personally

00:02:48been, I mean, I've talked a little bit about YWAM too, but just from those two churches, there's, what, maybe

00:02:56a dozen or so sexual abusers who have been exposed for their abusive tendencies.

00:03:05And so yet, again, again, this is just, it's like a broken record, you know?

00:03:11So this, the man who is being accused, his name is Ben Armstrong.

00:03:18Now, I do know Ben Armstrong.

00:03:20I've met him and spoke with him before.

00:03:22I don't know him well.

00:03:24So while I am an individual who has been pretty tightly involved with both Bethel and the International House of

00:03:34Prayer through my dad, this is, I'm not sharing, this is, the details of this event is just everything that

00:03:44I've claimed from listening to different podcasts and reading the news about it.

00:03:48But this is not, I'm not giving sort of first person primary information or I haven't talked with any of

00:03:57the victims yet.

00:03:59Although I definitely will want to be looking into this more because, again, there are just some eerie overlaps with

00:04:08the way that Bethel handled this whole situation and whatnot.

00:04:12But the gist of it is, long and short of it is, is that there is a man named Ben

00:04:19Armstrong who has been involved in Bethel leadership for quite some time.

00:04:26He is, I mean, if you've been at Bethel, you've seen him up at speaking from the pulpit several different

00:04:36times.

00:04:36I mean, he was an influential leader in 2009, Ben was involved in what, this is how Bethel has framed

00:04:48it.

00:04:48So I'll first give the Bethel framing because in February, Bethel released a couple statements about this.

00:04:57Apparently, Bethel was aware in 2009 that there was a moral failure.

00:05:03That's how they described it.

00:05:04Um, and in 2009, he was removed from ministry.

00:05:09Um, he repented and, uh, he was restored to ministry a few years later.

00:05:17Um, this was, this is sort of the narrative that Bethel has been giving, uh, or just in February.

00:05:24There is a woman who came forward who, um, talked about another incident that Bethel was not aware of, of

00:05:32grooming.

00:05:33Um, and that, again, this feels like broken records stuff.

00:05:38The same sort of, um, find a woman who is within your ministry or within your church or within the

00:05:48church school.

00:05:49Give her specific attention, uh, using the term woman loosely because it's, it's a young woman.

00:05:56Like, usually this is in the twenties and in other cases in teens.

00:06:01But I believe this woman was in her twenties.

00:06:04Um, give her specific attention.

00:06:08Um, single her out and then begin to try to groom her for, um, sexual purposes.

00:06:15And this is what was going on that a woman came forward and spoke about that Bethel was not aware

00:06:23of, and that they had not heard about, according to their statement.

00:06:27Um, when they heard about it, they released a statement that they're okay.

00:06:33We're, we're aware of it.

00:06:34We are aware of, um, what happened in 2009.

00:06:38He, this has been a known, you know, what happened in 2009.

00:06:43There was this known failure.

00:06:45Um, he's again, been removed from ministry, um, and, and restored.

00:06:52He's repented for these things.

00:06:54Um, and they labeled it an affair.

00:06:58So on February 13th, when Bethel releases this statement, um, the wake up and win, uh, podcast, which is hosted

00:07:08by two people who are actually from IHOP and who I knew and who were, um, very instrumental in helping

00:07:15expose some of, um, the, uh, scandal that was going on with Mike Bickle and everyone else at IHOP, um,

00:07:22in 2023, um, their names blaze and Christina.

00:07:26Um, they hosted on their podcast, uh, a woman named Sarah, who was the alleged victim, um, that Bethel was

00:07:38aware of in 2009.

00:07:40Now, this is the woman who was involved with, um, Ben, who Bethel framed as an affair.

00:07:51Uh, that's how, that's how the situation with Sarah was what Bethel was again, aware of, and they framed as

00:07:58an affair.

00:08:00This podcast is released, um, the, the wake up and win, which I really encourage people to watch.

00:08:06Um, I'm, I'm a big fan of, uh, blaze and Christina.

00:08:11I think that they do an excellent job.

00:08:13Again, they were super instrumental in exposing some of the things, um, that were going on, uh, during, with, uh,

00:08:18with IHOP in 2023.

00:08:20Um, and actually blaze has been, um, an advocate for reform.

00:08:25I remember back in 2010 and, or even before that, I think, um, he was at IHOP and, um, he

00:08:32was, uh, he's a few years older than me.

00:08:35And I remember him being kind of one of the first voices that I remember who was speaking out against

00:08:41some of the stuff that was going on in IHOP.

00:08:43So anyway, um, really encourage you to watch that.

00:08:47Um, Sarah is very vulnerable and believable and genuine on that podcast.

00:08:53And she explains the story, um, really, really well and, uh, heartbreakingly so, um, but the incident that Bethel labeled

00:09:03affair was she, um, Sarah, um, alleged, uh, it was assault instead.

00:09:12Um, and, um, she talked about two different specific instances of, of SA and it was a similar situation to

00:09:23something that we've seen in the past with others.

00:09:25Um, she was an intern for Ben.

00:09:27Um, she was connected through Bethel to, um, Ben.

00:09:32She was living with, um, the family, um, and, uh, Ben Armstrong was, was married, um, during the time.

00:09:39He's still married.

00:09:40Um, and so she was, she was living with them, was interning for Ben, working with him, traveling with him.

00:09:49Um, he constantly was doing different grooming behaviors, telling her to, um, be more vulnerable, um, physically, um, touching her

00:10:03in ways that weren't initially sexual, but just trying to break that barrier down.

00:10:10Um, of, of, of physical touch and, um, I mean, follows all sort of similar grooming patterns using both spiritual,

00:10:19um, and emotional sort of coercive control, um, to eventually have, uh, allegedly, um, instances of SA.

00:10:31So, um, so that's the long and short of it.

00:10:33That's what's going on.

00:10:34I, I definitely encourage, um, people to, to watch that episode and hear it from her directly.

00:10:39And again, to, so there's this incident and then there was another incident, um, that has, um, of, of this,

00:10:48of grooming, um, that has been reported.

00:10:51And this is all what's causing the stir, uh, and attention on Bethel.

00:10:56If you haven't been paying attention to Bethel or I, I know that of course you don't have John, but

00:11:03for people who are listening, if they, um, missed some of previous episodes, there was also, uh, the huge scandal

00:11:09that involved, um, Sean Bowles.

00:11:11And him using prophetic, um, uh, his prophetic authority to, um, leverage himself into positions where he was, um, uh,

00:11:24abusing different individuals, um, and also interns, um, in, in those, or, or people who are working with him or

00:11:32for him, um, was also abusing the prophetic, was doing a whole list, laundry list of things.

00:11:39Bethel came out and very tearfully, uh, uh, apologized for how they handled the Sean Bowles thing.

00:11:45And by, I say, by Bethel, I mean, um, Bill Johnson and, uh, Chris Vallotton came up to the front,

00:11:54um, and before a Sunday service, this was, I think only a few months ago, um, were genuinely like, or

00:12:03they appeared to be genuinely remorseful for the way that they handled the Sean Bowles situation.

00:12:08And we're extremely like, it looked very shook from the whole, um, uh, situation again, this is what it appeared

00:12:18to be now.

00:12:19I'm not so sure because like more stuff is coming out and it just feels like if you genuinely were

00:12:25shook by these things, how is it keep happening over and over again?

00:12:30Now, to be fair, the Ben Armstrong incident happened in 2009.

00:12:34The incident with my dad, um, happened in 2010 to 2000, sort of 15, or actually 17.

00:12:43There was multiple instances.

00:12:45Well, and then again in 2023.

00:12:47So in that sort of like decade, decade and a half, there were several instances, um, and then with Sean

00:12:58Bowles, sort of the same in the 2010s, um, into the 2020s, sort of same range.

00:13:04So within this like sort of decade, decade and a half, there was three different men at least who were

00:13:10all doing the same pattern of, um, using their authority that had been given to them by Bethel, um, to

00:13:18abuse interns that were all connected to them through Bethel and Bethel's leadership.

00:13:24So this is just, um, again, we're seeing a very consistent pattern and, and I will say that, you know,

00:13:32I can speak very confidently about what I know with my own father's situation.

00:13:37Um, you know, the other two situations, uh, Sean Bowles, I have actually spoken to some of the victims and

00:13:45have, um, more firsthand information.

00:13:48All of this of course is alleged information that, um, is being told.

00:13:53But again, I would, I, there's many brave people who are speaking up and, uh, sharing their voices.

00:14:00I encourage people to listen to the, the victims themselves and don't just take my word for it and hear

00:14:07their stories because, um, it's, it's really compelling.

00:14:12And I think that there is sort of this weird campaign that's going on now where Bethel is trying to

00:14:18frame their problem as something small while trying to pull the rug out under some of these victims to lessen

00:14:30the impact.

00:14:31And I think that all of that goes back to the way that Bethel is a framing this all as

00:14:36enough, like the flame framing the, um, situation with Sarah as an affair rather than essay.

00:14:45Um, I mean, I think that at the heart of it, that's the biggest issue, at least when we're looking

00:14:53at Bethel and, and how they're handling everything, um, that needs to like, has to be addressed.

00:14:59Um, it's, um, it's a pattern that I saw repeated.

00:15:03Um, this was something that happened with Bob Jones where, um, I always was told when I was young that

00:15:13Bob Jones had an affair and that was what caused his sort of, um, there was a, there was a,

00:15:19a moral failure.

00:15:22Very similar to, to, to how they're framing it with, with, with Ben Armstrong.

00:15:26Um, but there was some moral failure that, that, uh, Bob Jones had committed that I wasn't aware of any

00:15:37of the details, but it, to me, it was always told that it was some sort of affair and it

00:15:41sounded very consensual.

00:15:43Um, and it was a, uh, lapse in decision-making that he spent several years repenting for.

00:15:49And although of course it's not good and you don't want your spiritual leaders to be rampantly having an affair,

00:15:55um, that's not the situation that we're dealing with.

00:15:58That's just not, that's how it's attempted to be framed, but it is not a situation of moral failures.

00:16:07It's a situation of abuse.

00:16:09I really don't dig into scandals very much because it's, it really turns into this weird head hunt where you're

00:16:17looking to find a scandal.

00:16:18Yeah.

00:16:18And I'm more interested in the history than the scandal.

00:16:21Yeah.

00:16:21So it puts me in an odd place though, because what has happened over the past few years, the scandal

00:16:28has become the history.

00:16:29It's not like there's a need to go try to find a scandal.

00:16:33So literally you can almost go to any of the big new apostolic reformation churches and the history is writing

00:16:41itself as we, as we're looking at it.

00:16:43I don't have to go be a heresy hunter to go find somebody who's having a scandal.

00:16:49So for me, the scandal isn't really Ben Armstrong as weird as that sounds.

00:16:54I, I realized that, that, you know, that's awful what has happened.

00:16:57If it's true, it's at this point, I'm not going to say it is or isn't, but I've read through

00:17:02the news reports that exist.

00:17:05And the problem for me really is about the structure that enables it more than the individual scandals and how

00:17:13awful they are.

00:17:14Because when you look at the new apostolic reformation in the way that it's formed, it is an extension of

00:17:21what I came out of.

00:17:23When, when, what we were in, we claimed to be this divine healing movement that if you stayed in the

00:17:30movement, you had free access to healing that the outside churches did not have.

00:17:35And yet I knew several people who desperately needed to be healed and weren't.

00:17:41In fact, the batting average of those healed versus those who remain sick or afflicted or chronic diseases, it was

00:17:49like a 5% batting average.

00:17:50It was very, very low.

00:17:52And so that's really our only, that's really the only thing that we had other than this dead prophet guy.

00:17:58But we believed his prophecies were true.

00:18:01And when I found out that those were failed, what, what are you left with?

00:18:04There's not really much left.

00:18:06So of the five-fold ministry, we were in a one-fold ministry.

00:18:10We had a prophet.

00:18:13But William Branham laid down the foundation that all of this is built upon.

00:18:17And he did build it upon the five-fold ministry concept, which was not the one that's mentioned in Ephesians,

00:18:24but it's a, it's a very authoritarian type construct.

00:18:28And the guy at the top, you, you might call them the general.

00:18:32Those are the apostles.

00:18:33And then under them are lieutenants all the way down to the rank and file privates, right?

00:18:38So he created this very militant structure in the model after Joel's army manifested sons of God and then rewrote

00:18:46what each of these, he called them offices, each of these offices in the five-fold ministry meant.

00:18:53So an apostle is somebody who is sent out.

00:18:55It's a missionary who is an evangelist, but it's a missionary sent with authority, if you follow the biblical term

00:19:01of what an apostle is.

00:19:03In the way that it was rewritten for latter rain, it's more of a general who never leaves, who does

00:19:09all the strategic planning, who has a direct contact with the Holy Spirit or Jesus or God or divine revelation,

00:19:16whatever is their, their gimmick that they claim to have.

00:19:21Such that their church becomes operating as an office that the people who are Christian can come to and get

00:19:30access to God that they can't get in other places.

00:19:34Now, they won't come out and say, we are, we are the only one where it don't go to the

00:19:39other churches.

00:19:39What they instead do is they will give you a little bit of reverse psychology and say, the other churches

00:19:45don't have what we have and then go off into all of these things.

00:19:49Well, if you follow all this out to its logical conclusion, it means that God is present in the appointing,

00:19:56the leadership, the structure, and the control of the church.

00:20:01Otherwise, why would you want to submit your authority to these apostles and prophets, etc.?

00:20:07So, when you have a structure where you must believe that the leadership is appointed by God, what happens whenever

00:20:16one of them isn't?

00:20:17And that's really what we're facing here because every scandal that I've looked at, it's reached the point where it

00:20:24has now become historical.

00:20:26This is a historical subject we're talking about.

00:20:28In every case, what I just described is the case.

00:20:32They believe that the leadership is appointed by God because the apostle or prophet is the mediator between God and

00:20:40man.

00:20:41Because they have chosen the wrong mediator, now these mediators are choosing humans that are the wrong humans.

00:20:47And so, in the end, the chain of command has deviated from what the Christian Bible says as a chain

00:20:54of command, the Holy Spirit will lead and guide you, to now we have this human hierarchy of generals, lieutenants,

00:21:02all the way down to privates.

00:21:03So, for me, it's more about the structure, the scandal itself.

00:21:07Yes, it's bad.

00:21:09Yes, it's awful if you were a victim in one of these scandals.

00:21:12But historically speaking, you are in a movement that has been designed, really, to allow and create these.

00:21:20I think that's such a horrible truth, but a powerful truth that you're just, I mean, that's, it was created

00:21:31to facilitate this type of abuse.

00:21:35And, I mean, when you were talking, everything you were saying, I think is really poignant of, it's not, like,

00:21:46yes, we are seeing another scandal.

00:21:48This is not new to this world or to, I mean, the story of a man in power using that

00:21:58power to abuse a young victim is, unfortunately, a scandal that is prevalent in all sorts of communities and religions.

00:22:10And, I mean, at university, this happens a lot, in work positions, this happens, other churches, like, this is stuff

00:22:21that we've seen.

00:22:23And anybody who has their eyes open to see these things are probably going to know and see a lot

00:22:29of different instances of this happening in their own life.

00:22:34Because it just is, it's something that unfortunately happens a lot.

00:22:39But I think that what you're getting at is, okay, well, what specifically is happening in this new apostolic reformation

00:22:47that enables this story to, one, be repeated far more often than I would say in other communities and circumstances.

00:23:02And, two, for it to be so much more intense like this, I think that this is some of the

00:23:09things that you're hitting on when you have an appointed apostle who is either the one who's committing the abuse

00:23:16or who's condoning or covering up in the case of, like, a Bill Johnson, who is not he himself accused,

00:23:27at least from what I'm aware of, of abuse.

00:23:31But has been present and for a lot of, has been aware, made aware of a lot of this abuse

00:23:40happening under sort of his watch in his church and has largely worked to cover and protect the leaders that

00:23:49he sort of invites into his church and his community.

00:23:54Because these appointed apostles have unflinching and unwavering authority, they are the kings of their own castles.

00:24:12So, I think that even, let's take the example of the International House of Prayer.

00:24:20There has been an abundant amount of exposure that has happened about how Mike Bickle was abusing many people and

00:24:32had been doing that for decades.

00:24:35To this point, there has not been any consequence that is not just social consequence.

00:24:44I mean, so he was removed from IHOP leadership.

00:24:49There has been exposure online.

00:24:51And all of this, of course, is good and important.

00:24:53And I think I don't want to minimize the fact that a lot of this, just like people knowing and

00:24:59having this exposed to the public is extremely important.

00:25:04But Mike Bickle has not paid restitution.

00:25:07He's not been, there's been no civil suits.

00:25:10There's been no criminal actions against him because of this sort of long pattern of covering up and making it

00:25:20so victims in these communities do not have a voice.

00:25:26It is really made it difficult for victims to come forward and be able to get any sort of resolution,

00:25:39restitution consequences, especially with in the Mike Bickle's case, because there's been several decades that have passed since many of

00:25:48the incidents, incidences occurred.

00:25:51Um, because there wasn't really any opportunity for these women to speak out, um, until now, uh, there's this sort

00:26:01of like, well, what can we do about it now?

00:26:03And I, and laws are being changed in Missouri to, to shift that, I will say, but right now it's,

00:26:10it is looking like it's difficult.

00:26:12Um, now it's not the end of the story, um, there might be some consequences that are coming for Mike

00:26:18Bickle.

00:26:18Like it's the, I know that there's several things that are happening, um, and whether or not, you know, we

00:26:25will see some, uh, legal consequences unfold, um, is yet to be seen.

00:26:31But largely even with the, I mean, the, probably the biggest representation of, of someone who has been abusing his

00:26:44power in this, this, um, new apostolic reformation world that has many different, you know, corroborating testimonies and all sorts

00:26:54of evidence.

00:26:54I mean, even this individual, Mike Bickle, who has had all of this information about him, the fact that he

00:27:00hasn't even faced any consequences paints a really dire picture on how, um, people are, are silenced in this and

00:27:13how victims are not given paths to, um, find any sense of, of justice in these worlds.

00:27:21And with Bethel, this is the story.

00:27:26It's the story of how a church community has one enabled and structured itself to, um, allow and condone these

00:27:37under the table, um, abuses, uh, grooming of vulnerable individuals by, uh, predatory leaders in their community.

00:27:47Um, so it's, it's, it's the cause, but it's also the continuation of it and how, um, by framing things

00:27:54as, um, an affair versus assault, how the entire notion of consent, um, and, uh, has been almost eradicated in

00:28:11these communities because it's just sexual sin versus not.

00:28:17That's it. And if two people were engaged in a situation, who cares? I mean, I hate to say it

00:28:26in this way because I, obviously no one, no one would say it quite this, um, absurdly, but it really

00:28:32seems to be the, the pattern.

00:28:34It's like, who cares whether or not it was consensual. They both engaged in something, um, whether she was coerced,

00:28:42um, or he was coerced.

00:28:43I mean, these victims are not always female, but, um, if the victim, regardless of whether or not the victim

00:28:51was coerced, um, into the situation, um, whether they said no or didn't, whether they, um, were young and didn't,

00:29:03were being manipulated, all of these sort of things have been completely like eradicated from the conversation.

00:29:10And then it's just a matter of, oh, well, he had an affair. And so instead the victim of it

00:29:15is his Ben Armstrong's wife.

00:29:18That's the person who's like, oh, maybe he, he had an affair and, and maybe it's even Ben Armstrong himself.

00:29:25Like he harmed himself. And I know that that sounds crazy, but like, that is how I always heard frames

00:29:32with my dad.

00:29:33Like when I heard Bill, um, or Chris or others talk with my dad about his own moral failures, um,

00:29:42and not again, moral failures is, is, I, I don't want to repeat the same sort of, um, whitewashing that

00:29:53I heard.

00:29:53It's really difficult for me to even have these conversations about these things without whitewashing it in my common, just

00:30:00talking about it because I've been so inundated in this world that does this whitewashing of it.

00:30:06But in what they would call his moral failures, it was always, Bob, look, what are you doing to yourself?

00:30:12Like you have such an, a mantle and such an authority and we want you to be used by God.

00:30:19And if you are getting distracted, if you are getting pulled away, if you are allowing yourself to be tempted

00:30:27by the enemy, you are, um, lessening your power and authority that you have, which is just like an insane

00:30:36way to handle abuse.

00:30:39Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

00:30:47reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

00:30:52You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

00:31:00On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

00:31:08John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

00:31:14You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

00:31:21If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

00:31:27top.

00:31:27And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

00:31:33watching.

00:31:34On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:31:39Earlier I said the foundation needs to be in question, and I think I should probably qualify that a little

00:31:46bit,

00:31:46because for somebody who's new, who hasn't read through all of the research or watched all the videos,

00:31:52there was this intent to change and morph the way the Christian religion was portrayed to the Christian people,

00:32:01starting after latter reign.

00:32:02So after the history I was in, it started to change quite a bit.

00:32:06We believed in a pre-tribulation rapture.

00:32:09We were going up right before the atomic bomb hit, and we were the ones who would be coming back

00:32:14down

00:32:15and walking on the ashes of the dead.

00:32:17That was our weird end-of-day, doomsday theology.

00:32:21But the New Apostolic Reformation has morphed it.

00:32:24What they did was they took the five-fold ministry concept that I mentioned earlier,

00:32:28and they took the authority of leading and guiding away from the Holy Spirit to these other mediators,

00:32:34these apostles and prophets.

00:32:37So in doing that, and the reason why they did that, they wanted to say that we are,

00:32:43they used the we are little gods theology, all of these things to say that we're the new breed of

00:32:49Christianity.

00:32:50And it's quite different than the old breed, because we are the ones who will now rule and reign.

00:32:55We need to go take charge of our kingdom.

00:32:57So the theology shifted in that way.

00:33:00Well, what it does, because it puts it into a human perspective with human leadership,

00:33:07human appointing of these apostles and prophets, and these mantles being passed, all of the weird stuff,

00:33:14in the end, what happens is you're running it as a human, as a business.

00:33:19And the sad truth of it is, in the United States, for you to have a church, it has to

00:33:24run as a business,

00:33:25from a small church to a large one, right?

00:33:29So logically speaking, you can't have it both ways.

00:33:32If you're going to be led by the Holy Spirit and let the Holy Spirit do the choosing, you go

00:33:36that direction.

00:33:37If you're going to govern it as a human who's running a business, you go the New Apostolic Reformation.

00:33:43It's one of two choices, and you can't have it both ways.

00:33:46The problem is people don't think of all of the logic that goes with that.

00:33:52If you're choosing the human side and they're running it as business, now you have to think of these guys

00:33:57like your employers.

00:33:58Put yourself into the position of a boss at work.

00:34:03I have been over teams of people, and I have worked with other team leaders who have been over teams

00:34:09of people.

00:34:11In the IT world, I have been at the executive level.

00:34:15So I can watch all of this from kind of like the Apostle level of a business side.

00:34:22And people have people problems.

00:34:24There are some people who just, sadly, you put them with the opposite sex,

00:34:29and there's going to be this thing happens that either they behave correctly or they don't,

00:34:34because they're human and humans have flaws.

00:34:36So as an employer, you can kind of recognize when this is happening.

00:34:42And as a leader, you will make things happen to make sure, A, if it's a female, she's protected.

00:34:50And oddly, in today's world, as a male, make sure he's protected, because you might have the opposite.

00:34:56And you do things strategically so that there's nothing that can happen that is negative for either side.

00:35:05You're a leader.

00:35:06You're leading the people.

00:35:07And you're the one to watch over.

00:35:08You're the one in charge.

00:35:10Go back to my example.

00:35:12Either the Holy Spirit is in charge or these people, these apostles and prophets, they're in charge.

00:35:16Well, if they are, and that's what the people have chosen who attend these churches, they have to be thinking

00:35:22like this.

00:35:23They have to be watching these people.

00:35:24So here, for me, is where the real issue lies with this particular issue.

00:35:29As I understand it in reading through the news, this is an event that happened, well, like you just said,

00:35:34in 2009.

00:35:35Well, in 2009, that was the point, if you're looking at it like the employer, the employers found out, right?

00:35:43What did they do to protect anyone?

00:35:46What did they do to change and make sure that nothing was going to happen?

00:35:49Are they good employers or are they bad employers?

00:35:52Would you be at a job where you're knowingly unprotected from this type of risk by your employer?

00:36:01I know I wouldn't.

00:36:02I would be finding a new job.

00:36:04The problem is people can't logically make this connection.

00:36:09You're either led by the Holy Spirit or you're led by the apostle.

00:36:12It's one or the two.

00:36:15Scripture aside, there are Bible passages that talk about there is only one mediator between God and man.

00:36:21That's Jesus Christ.

00:36:22And Jesus said, I will send the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you.

00:36:26If you're wanting to just ignore all that part of the Scripture and take the human path, you have to

00:36:32take the human consequences.

00:36:34So the other thing that I really struggle with here, we have a timeline that suggests the leadership may not

00:36:40have been good leadership.

00:36:41I'll say it like that and keep it simple.

00:36:44But then you have people who knowingly choose leaders who will do this to them.

00:36:50And when it happens, they stay in the church.

00:36:53They don't leave the job.

00:36:54They don't go find a new employer.

00:36:55They don't go find employment that is healthy.

00:36:57So this is a vicious cycle that I know that I'll get backlash for saying this.

00:37:04Yes, I see a problem with the leadership.

00:37:06But look at the people who enabled us.

00:37:09It's really what what world would you be in where a company would not have his employees riot if they

00:37:15saw that they're at this type of risk.

00:37:17No, man, you're not going to do this to me.

00:37:19You can't do this and be my boss.

00:37:21We'll all walk out and we'll stage a walk out.

00:37:24What church has had us walk out when one of these things happened?

00:37:27Instead, what they do is they want to go back to the mediator situation.

00:37:31And it's just circular logic.

00:37:33We're going to go back to the very thing that created the issue in the first place.

00:37:38And we're going to enable ourselves to be victimized.

00:37:41What business would not have their employees walk out after this something like this happened?

00:37:48I think it's such a good question because it is really true.

00:37:55And I think there's there's a few different things that we can give us not necessarily answers, but can help

00:38:04understand why we're not seeing a mass exodus from Bethel.

00:38:08And perhaps there will be.

00:38:10Let's, you know, we will see what there certainly was from IHOP to some extent.

00:38:17And so maybe this is just an instance where the larger congregation just was their eyes were totally blind to

00:38:25what was going on in their community until hopefully now they're starting to see it.

00:38:33But, I mean, this goes back to why Bethel needs to be a place of miracles, right?

00:38:42And that's why this goes back to why individuals can get individuals who are heroes, miracle workers of the faith

00:38:55get away with.

00:38:56I mean, right up to murder, you know, I haven't heard of murder yet, but I, you know, at some

00:39:05point, John, you're going to tell me a story and I'm going to fully believe it.

00:39:08But I mean, usually it's a euphemism getting away with murder, but we're really we're really trending in that direction

00:39:15because it's just like that.

00:39:16I mean, truly getting away with with some unbelievable things that a boss would never, you know, using using your

00:39:28authority can only get you so far in conventional sort of circumstances.

00:39:33Your boss abuses you only to so much, especially now that we have more structures of accountability, not that it

00:39:41doesn't happen.

00:39:41I mean, this happens in other settings, too, but if it's widespread sort of systematic, you know, there's there's methods

00:39:51of allowing people to get to just from a liability standpoint.

00:39:57Like at at I've worked at different universities and like when I was working as a graduate teaching instructor at

00:40:05Colorado State, I remember we had like a dozen.

00:40:12What were they called? But a dozen like HR sessions.

00:40:16And it was just the entire time.

00:40:18It was just like, do not have relationships with your students in any way.

00:40:22Like giving us it was sometimes it was like so repetitive and so like straightforward of just like, what about

00:40:30in this circumstance?

00:40:31The answer is no.

00:40:32What about in this circumstance?

00:40:33Answer is no, because clearly it was just like, OK, this opens us up to so much liability.

00:40:39Like Colorado State isn't it's not like they were a beacon of progressive and ethical understanding where they were like,

00:40:52we really want to make sure that we are not creating a culture in which people are victims of abusers.

00:41:01There's I'm sure that they cared about that, too, but largely it was a liability thing.

00:41:05They were like, OK, we get sued if a teacher has a relationship with the student and there's any sort

00:41:11of improper relationship there that opens us up to a million dollar lawsuit.

00:41:17So there are these systems in place because it's a business.

00:41:20And when you're working there, you understand a little bit.

00:41:23It's a business.

00:41:24You go home and you're like, yeah, sure.

00:41:26I went to the school and I learned some different things.

00:41:30I, you know, it was very big part of my life, but it was still like removed from my personal

00:41:36life in some senses.

00:41:38So there is those sort of like there should be these sort of proper boundaries around a business.

00:41:46And the whole HR department is there to sort of structure it so that there are proper boundaries in place,

00:41:53whether they do that well or not.

00:41:56Obviously, that that depends.

00:41:58But that's the philosophy behind sort of how these businesses are structured to handle these different things.

00:42:04But in these specifically in these new apostolic reformation churches and this latter ring movement, you have people who the

00:42:15followers don't know it's a business.

00:42:16The leaders do.

00:42:18The leaders are fully aware that this is like, okay, a way of making money, a way of building platforms

00:42:25with this is structured.

00:42:27This is not like a church.

00:42:28And I know this, like this is not me just saying this as if it's my opinion.

00:42:32I've had the conversation with leaders.

00:42:34Like I explicitly had a conversation with Chris Vallotton where he was like, hey, man, we're big.

00:42:41We're a big church.

00:42:42We can't be aware of everything that's going on in our community and our congregation.

00:42:49And because he was telling me why they were not taking the situation with my dad very seriously and we're

00:42:57not doing something about it.

00:43:00And he was just kind of like, yeah, yeah, because he was telling me without explicitly saying, hey, we're a

00:43:05business and we're trying to sell our product and like we're not a church that cares about our community.

00:43:12He almost explicitly said those exact things of just being like we're big and we have, you know, he even

00:43:20talked about how many albums they sold in that conversation and how many people were listening or playing Bethel music

00:43:31where it was just like it was basically Bethel is more than just a business is a brand is what

00:43:38he was telling me.

00:43:39And so like the leaders understand this, they understand that there is this dynamic going on, but the followers don't.

00:43:46They genuinely feel like it's a church community, that they are being spiritually fed and that they're in a community

00:43:56and a place that cares about them.

00:43:58And in some respects, they are, there is community that will center around it.

00:44:04But then I think that that's probably the whiplash we're seeing is that there's a bunch of individuals who are

00:44:09now seeing that like, oh man, Bill Johnson's not a shepherd, not in any sense of the word is he

00:44:17taking care of his flock.

00:44:19Like he's a businessman and that having that whiplash of changing that perspective on who their leaders are is something

00:44:30that like needs to happen more.

00:44:32And I think that this is where I think it's right to call out some of the Bethel community and

00:44:37even the following Bethel community of like, we gotta, we gotta figure it out.

00:44:42I say we, I'm obviously not a part of that community, but as someone who grew up and felt a

00:44:49part of that community as once, like, I do feel like this is a sort of, I feel, I empathize

00:44:54with that feeling of being like, okay, I have to, I have to come to terms with what's going on

00:45:01in my community.

00:45:02And it's a difficult thing to do, but like, it has to be done.

00:45:07And so going back to the original point that I said, but that's why they need to be all miracle

00:45:12workers, why these leaders need to be miracle workers.

00:45:15Because in these instances in which you now have a congregation or a group of people who are starting to

00:45:23get wise to the abusive tendencies of their employers and their leaders.

00:45:30I cannot tell you how much the belief in miracles and these leaders as miracle workers helps put a severe

00:45:49lid on the freedom and the ability to question leadership.

00:45:57Because as soon as you do say, you're someone who's been at Bethel for a long period of time and

00:46:03who has seen some of these things happen behind the scenes and have never felt the sort of like courage

00:46:09to think about it.

00:46:11And now is being sort of forced to do so because you're hearing these testimonies where you like have to

00:46:18come to terms.

00:46:19You're either going to be like, okay, this happened or this didn't happen.

00:46:21And you can't, you can't just look away in this instance.

00:46:28I know how so many of individuals in this world think, and I know so many of them are being

00:46:35like, yeah, but I, I saw gold fall from the ceiling at Bethel.

00:46:39I saw and heard about a man getting up and walking.

00:46:46I know I've heard Bob Hartley give prophetic words that I, you know, I've seen people weep and double over

00:46:55because he called them out from a random crowd.

00:47:00And I saw Bill Johnson tell me stories of, of people being healed in Africa and, and the crazy miracles

00:47:14in Southeast Asia and all of these different things.

00:47:17This, this is, this is, this is, this is God, God has done all of this.

00:47:21And if I then recognize the flaw in these leaders, if I recognize them as abusers, all of that, that

00:47:31I've believed in disappears.

00:47:34And I have to contend, or I have to somehow square the circle and be like, oh, I guess God

00:47:44doesn't care about abusive people.

00:47:46Like, I guess God is, is anointing these people who are some of the most horrible abusers that I've ever

00:47:54met in my life.

00:47:55And that's, and that's how we get a whole twisted.

00:47:59And that's how it repeats because then it's like, oh, okay, well, I guess God's okay with it.

00:48:02And if God's okay with it, why can't I do it?

00:48:06And, you know, maybe I need to do it in some, maybe I need to be in this place where

00:48:12I'm really allowing myself to, to give myself over to the power and the whole aura of being this like

00:48:23prophetic abuser, which I know sounds, again, sounds ridiculous.

00:48:28But like the allure of this like powerful person who is able to get, to take control over individuals and

00:48:41take control over like vulnerable people, it genuinely appeals to a lot of, a lot of, a lot of individuals

00:48:52in these communities.

00:48:53And so you see sort of this pattern of, of the worst, the worst tendencies and the worst people are

00:49:00being pulled into leadership because there's this sort of allure of the power and the abuse.

00:49:07So, yeah.

00:49:09This kind of thing really angers me.

00:49:11And here's why.

00:49:12I'll be very blunt.

00:49:14Yeah.

00:49:14I'm not usually that blunt.

00:49:16You know me well enough to know this.

00:49:18The heart of this issue is really the, the honor culture that exists.

00:49:23Yeah.

00:49:24And I'm going to go back to my business example, but because I think people will understand why this angers

00:49:28me so much.

00:49:30When I began my consulting business, I, I was the business entity.

00:49:35I was the face of my business.

00:49:37And whenever I would do executive level consulting with a company, they would interface with me and I might have

00:49:43a team under me, but I was the face of the business.

00:49:47And whoever I handpicked for whatever project we had in operation, they would interface with me to appoint the right

00:49:56people.

00:49:57And I would choose the people that I felt were best suited for the job.

00:50:01And if any way along the mission that we were tasked to complete, if there was anything that put our

00:50:09project at risk, even if it was a good person I confided in and had full trust in, I would

00:50:16go to the company and I would, I would have to say, here are the risks that we have.

00:50:20Here is what's happening.

00:50:22And here's what I'm doing to mitigate that risk.

00:50:25There's always this complete control of the situation.

00:50:28And if you don't have it, you're not a good leader.

00:50:32The problem that I have is this honor culture has created an atmosphere where the leaders are operating the, these

00:50:41businesses in these new apostolic reformation churches where they are usurping the role of the Holy Spirit so that they

00:50:49can handpick the anointed individuals to help them with their operation.

00:50:53And it doesn't matter how they come out and apologize and say, hey, this happened.

00:50:58I'm so sorry.

00:50:59We didn't know that this was going to result in this.

00:51:03Yes, we knew this was a problem years ago.

00:51:06Yes, we continue to use this person, but we thought it was going to come out better because God is

00:51:11with us.

00:51:13There is no apology for this.

00:51:16If you're the face of your business, you're the one who handpicked them.

00:51:20But it's even worse for these guys than it is for my business.

00:51:24Say I did have an employee that did something horrific and my company had to eat the money and pay

00:51:30for the pay for the fix.

00:51:32That's bad.

00:51:33But look what these people are doing.

00:51:35They're saying literally that God is with us, leading us, giving us these miracles.

00:51:41And it's God that is appointing these people, not us.

00:51:45If you follow what they say out to their logical conclusion, that is what it is.

00:51:49They may say, I'm human, just like you, and then go do all of these things that they say are

00:51:55greater than any human.

00:51:57You in the seats can't do this because we're the apostle.

00:51:59We're the prophet.

00:52:00So they have elevated themselves into the status up here.

00:52:04That's fine if you do this.

00:52:06But you own each mistake that happens because you are the face of your business.

00:52:14The reason this angers me so much is because in the business example that I gave for my company, money

00:52:22was the risk.

00:52:23If I got engaged in a project, I might lose some money.

00:52:28I might go without food for a bit, but I can go get a job.

00:52:32There's really no human risk.

00:52:34But we're talking about the lives of people.

00:52:37Yeah.

00:52:38So if you want to find out how you can anger John, put somebody's life at risk.

00:52:43Yeah.

00:52:43While also you're making the money of the business, and I will get very angry.

00:52:48Yeah.

00:52:49That is the one thing that will just make me irate.

00:52:52Yeah.

00:52:52And I think that even in our legal system, there's less recourse for people who have been taken advantage using

00:53:02their life and their beliefs as leverage versus money.

00:53:06In a business setting, if you have an employer who is sexually harassing you and then you get fired because

00:53:15you rebuffed their advances, there's pretty good systems of recourse for that now.

00:53:23There didn't used to be 60, 70 years ago, but now that is something that there's more structure around.

00:53:30I'm not saying that it always happens, and I think that there probably should be more robust resources for individuals

00:53:38in those situations.

00:53:40But there is a path and a method for sort of restitution in those settings.

00:53:50But if you're a volunteer who's working for a religious leader who is in an unofficial capacity, you never signed

00:53:59anything, you never were – there is no HR department.

00:54:04You just started there.

00:54:06And especially if you're young, I mean, there are – this is not like a very specific random situation.

00:54:14This happens.

00:54:14I mean, there are probably 1,000 people in this situation right now in just like YWAM, IHOP, and Bethel.

00:54:25Just in those three sort of communities, even right now, there are young adults who are totally giving their time.

00:54:32They're not being paid anything.

00:54:33They're finding ways to either work on the side or something like that.

00:54:39And then they're giving a lot of their time and energy to help a spiritual advisor or a spiritual hero

00:54:46in the community.

00:54:48I mean, this is exactly what was going on with several of the victims of Sean Bulls, of Ben Armstrong,

00:54:56of my father, of Mike Pickle.

00:55:00There are people who are saying, okay, this is – I am giving my life to this movement.

00:55:06Genuinely, they're devoting their life to a movement.

00:55:10And they see these heroes in the community as the sort of personification of that movement.

00:55:19And so, they're dedicating their lives to this person.

00:55:22And they're young and naive and don't understand why that's a terrible decision.

00:55:27But, you know, because they're in their teens and 20s, this is something that everybody around them has said is

00:55:34really good.

00:55:35Because everybody around them has told them that this community is, I mean, at the forefront, the forerunners for God

00:55:43himself.

00:55:45And so, all of this time and energy is dedicated to it.

00:55:50They then are abused or manipulated or let's say that they even rebuff the advances of this abuser, which rarely

00:56:01people have the capacity to do because of these circumstances.

00:56:07But let's say they do and then they get ostracized from the community.

00:56:11What's the consequences?

00:56:12Do you go call a lawyer?

00:56:15Do you find someone who is going to take that case?

00:56:20Maybe.

00:56:22But the path, I will tell you, as someone who works in this world and has advocated for individuals, the

00:56:27path is not as easy for that.

00:56:30Now, I still think that there are paths for it.

00:56:32And hopefully we will see some legal changes that enable that.

00:56:40But it's crazy to me that someone who's volunteering, who's not getting any money, who is in a situation where

00:56:49their whole community, they risk social alienation.

00:56:53They risk spiritual alienation.

00:56:58They're very, like you said, their very lives are at stake.

00:57:02Have little to no recourse for the abuse that's perpetuated on them, both within the legal system and obviously within

00:57:11the communities themselves.

00:57:14And I mean, this is so this is what we're seeing, why we see it, our pattern, why we see

00:57:19it keep happening over and over again.

00:57:21And if you're talking about what makes you mad, obviously, all of this makes me mad and I get mad

00:57:28far more often on this.

00:57:30So so so maybe this isn't as rare.

00:57:33But one thing that really gets me upset is when I think that even good natured people who are listening

00:57:42to a podcast like this or I remember this happening a lot when when I first was speaking up about

00:57:49the abuses that were going on with my dad.

00:57:51There's this question of like, why didn't they go to the police?

00:57:54Why didn't they get you know, why isn't the legal system done anything about this?

00:58:00And this is the same. We will see this parroted by even leaders in the community.

00:58:04They're like, hey, we're going to reserve judgment until like the legal system has played out.

00:58:09The entire legal system is structured in a way to make these things really, really difficult for these people to

00:58:17be able to get any form of of of of restitution or get any form of punishment.

00:58:24And because it's just one, there's a lot of freedom in religious communities.

00:58:30I mean, that's that is as American as apple pie is the freedom of the Christian religious movement.

00:58:38And I know that people don't want to agree or believe in that.

00:58:42That is just a fact of the matter of is like the if you are a Christian pastor in the

00:58:49United States, your freedom to do some really great things, both in like abusive ways and in financial ways.

00:59:01Like I have seen people get away with so much and use sort of the shield of a religious freedom

00:59:11to to really keep them away from any sort of accountability.

00:59:20I mean, this this is a whole that's probably a whole different podcast, so I'm not going to get on

00:59:25that.

00:59:26But when I get so upset when people are like, well, why isn't any why aren't these men in jail?

00:59:34Why isn't there lawsuits? And one, there are still like just because you don't know about it doesn't mean that

00:59:40there aren't some things like this.

00:59:43Not everything that is going on is public. And a lot of times when it gets into this now legal

00:59:48setting, people have to be more careful about how they talk about it.

00:59:51But to like that is so incredibly difficult for there to be success.

00:59:59And it is so intimidating to go into that world.

01:00:04And so people are so nonchalant of what they think should happen in this world.

01:00:09And like, I agree. And this is where I think that there are some people like this are well meaning

01:00:14where they're like, man, these people, if this is all true, these people should be in jail.

01:00:17And it's like, yes, they should be. That's not the world we live in, though, right now.

01:00:22And I think that we're we're going to see some of that play out with this, too.

01:00:26And I am positive, positive that some of the people from Bethel will frame it in this like, well, let's

01:00:36wait until the justice system plays out.

01:00:38And everything and and and and punt it to the justice system and be like, OK, well, we don't know.

01:00:44And Bethel hasn't no one's gone to prison yet. So nothing bad really happened.

01:00:48I'm positive that's going to be the strategy.

01:00:50I agree. And like I say, this the whole thing really angers me.

01:00:54And it isn't that I'm pointing fingers at just the apostles, the prophets or the people who are involved in

01:01:01the abuse.

01:01:02This is a systematic problem. It's really the system that needs to change.

01:01:06So thank you for doing this. Yeah, my pleasure.

01:01:09Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the Web.

01:01:12You can find us at William dash Branham dot org for more about the dark side of the new apostolic

01:01:16reformation.

01:01:17You can read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon, Kindle and Audible.

01:01:51You can find us at the end of the new apostolic reformation.

01:01:53You can find us at the end of the new apostolic reformation.

01:02:27You can find us at the end of the new apostolic reformation.

01:02:29You can find us at the end of the new apostolic reformation.

01:02:30You can find us at the end of the new apostolic reformation.

01:02:31You can find us at the end of the new apostolic reformation.

What Bethel’s Crisis Reveals About Church Power | Ben Armstrong News | Jed Hartley | Episode 598

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