- 2 days ago
John invites David to share his journey from the Assemblies of God into an international prophetic healing movement that claimed supernatural authority, modern apostleship, and end-time fulfillment. He explains how teachings about tongues, holiness, dominion theology, and five-fold ministry prepared him to accept increasingly dramatic prophetic claims.
Together they examine how charismatic structures can shift into authoritarian control, how miracle culture shapes belief, and how false hope surrounding healing—especially involving autism—can deeply affect families. This discussion explores Pentecostal history, prophetic movements, and the warning signs of personality-driven ministries.
00:00 Introduction
01:09 David’s Pentecostal Background
04:23 The “Calling” And Pastoral Ambition
07:02 Dominionism, Bible School, And Institutional Religion
10:16 What Pentecostal History Leaves Out
14:00 Tongues, Fear, And Salvation Anxiety
16:14 Pastoral Authority And Walking On Eggshells
22:05 Credentialing, Rejection, And Disillusionment
25:19 Leaving The Assemblies And Finding A New Teacher Online
27:59 Why Fractured Pentecostalism Pushes People Toward New Prophets
30:36 The Kenyan Prophet’s Changing Story
34:39 Why The Claims Felt Believable
36:33 Moses, Elijah, And Supernatural Power Claims
38:34 What Started Breaking The Spell
41:14 Transfiguration Imagery And Divine Status Claims
44:08 Kenya, Healing Services, And False Hope
45:10 Autism, Desperation, And Unanswered Promises
48:16 Advice For People Trying To Leave
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Together they examine how charismatic structures can shift into authoritarian control, how miracle culture shapes belief, and how false hope surrounding healing—especially involving autism—can deeply affect families. This discussion explores Pentecostal history, prophetic movements, and the warning signs of personality-driven ministries.
00:00 Introduction
01:09 David’s Pentecostal Background
04:23 The “Calling” And Pastoral Ambition
07:02 Dominionism, Bible School, And Institutional Religion
10:16 What Pentecostal History Leaves Out
14:00 Tongues, Fear, And Salvation Anxiety
16:14 Pastoral Authority And Walking On Eggshells
22:05 Credentialing, Rejection, And Disillusionment
25:19 Leaving The Assemblies And Finding A New Teacher Online
27:59 Why Fractured Pentecostalism Pushes People Toward New Prophets
30:36 The Kenyan Prophet’s Changing Story
34:39 Why The Claims Felt Believable
36:33 Moses, Elijah, And Supernatural Power Claims
38:34 What Started Breaking The Spell
41:14 Transfiguration Imagery And Divine Status Claims
44:08 Kenya, Healing Services, And False Hope
45:10 Autism, Desperation, And Unanswered Promises
48:16 Advice For People Trying To Leave
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, David Smith, former
00:45member of the Charismatic Movement.
00:48David, it's good to have you on and to talk about the Charismatic Church and the, I guess
00:52you'd call it the Prophetic Movement.
00:54I'm actually not even sure what to call the extreme thing that you got involved with
01:00or your family got involved with.
01:02So, I'm very glad to have you on and try to untangle this.
01:06If you could, just maybe tell everybody a little bit about yourself.
01:09It's great to be here.
01:10I'm like a big listener of your podcast, and I will say this.
01:15I have actually learned a lot more about the full history of Pentecostalism and the Assemblies
01:24of God than I ever did in my three years at Berean School of the Bible.
01:30So, just like a little bit of my background, I was born and raised in a Pentecostal Assemblies
01:41of God family.
01:42Now, like my father, he came from a Presbyterian family.
01:46My mother's side of the family were Assemblies of God.
01:52Her grandfather on her dad's side was actually an Assembly of God pastor.
02:00And my grandmother's side of the family, they came from a Methodist family, but then they
02:07came to Pentecostalism.
02:11And my grandmother, she is still an ordained pastor within the Assemblies of God.
02:20That's quite a connection, and I'm glad that you found the research that we've been publishing
02:24to be helpful.
02:25Now, you're still involved with the church, is that right?
02:27I still see the church as my second home, because when I was a child, my mother, she
02:36raised me and my brothers and sisters to study the scriptures, to love Christ above everything
02:44else.
02:45And so, going to church was, again, it was the second home to me.
02:51And it wasn't until, by the time I was eight years old, I went to, I was visiting my grandparents'
02:59house back in my hometown in Youngstown, Ohio.
03:04And we were, we went to their church, Highway Tabernacle, which was also the same church that
03:11I was baptized in when I was, like, later on when I was 18.
03:17But I didn't go to Sunday school class like the other kids.
03:20I stayed in the sanctuary with my, with my family.
03:25And at the time, this was when the previous pastor, Pastor Alford, was still alive.
03:34And, you know, my family, they spoke very highly of him.
03:39But while he was preaching, I was looking at him very intently, and I said to, I said to
03:44myself, I can do what he's doing.
03:46And so, later, later, when we, when we went back home, we were living in Virginia at the
03:53time, I walked into my mother, and I said, Mom, I want to be a preacher when I grow up.
03:58So, she said, well, David, you have to have a calling first.
04:05You know, I'm so curious.
04:06I know many people who have said exactly what you just said.
04:10You have to have that calling, my brother.
04:11And I watched some of the people who had the quote-unquote calling, and watched some of
04:16the things that they did, and, oh my gosh, did they, did they really have a calling?
04:20That's one of the questions that I always ask.
04:22But at the same time, well, and I'm not trying to be offensive, that's, that's kind of funny
04:28to me, but there's a serious side to it, too, because there are people who get in the
04:31movement, and they really feel like this is important to them.
04:35And I, I had an experience, but it wasn't that.
04:39It wasn't like there was a calling or anything like this.
04:41I just had an experience that said, humble yourself, but in Pentecostalism, you had to
04:46have the calling, and the calling is what moved you, and, and it's, it's this whole,
04:51it's this whole big experience.
04:52Did you have that big experience?
04:55Apparently, I, I, I did, but like, my mother told me, she said, well, David, you're, you
05:04have to have a calling first because your father, he wanted to be an Assembly of God pastor,
05:10but he didn't have the calling.
05:12So, like, you know, my, my dad, when he first became, when he, like, really became a Christian,
05:20because he was Presbyterian in name only.
05:23So, like, when he really became a Christian, he went, he went to Berean school, the Bible,
05:28and he was studying to become a pastor, but then he just gave up, and he was, he started
05:35his career in, like, the electrical engineering field.
05:39As I was growing up, I was constantly sharing the gospel with friends, kids at school, and
05:46as I got older, I started witnessing to people at work, and they would always say to me, you
05:54know, you know, David, I can see you as a pastor, and I would say, well, you know, that's
06:02nice, but, you know, at the time, I was actually wanting to be a lawyer.
06:05I said, well, that's nice, but I don't really see myself as a pastor.
06:09I, I, I'm focusing on being a lawyer, because I had these, like, this big ambition of going
06:17to law school, becoming a lawyer, and then eventually throw my hat in politics and become,
06:23like, a congressman or a senator.
06:25Uh, but unfortunately, that didn't turn quite out the way it, I expected, because then I
06:35finally said, okay, you know, I'm going to become a pastor.
06:38You know, I'm filled with questions that I'm dying to have answered, especially, so you
06:43described, you've had the Pentecostal call, then suddenly you decide you're going to become
06:48a pastor.
06:48How long does it take, exactly, whenever you feel the calling and you become a pastor,
06:54how long does it take before you suddenly feel like, okay, I'm a pastor, we're in a
06:59movement, we need to claim dominion over the people?
07:02Two years ago, I was down in D.C. for the FFC, or Faith Freedom Coalition Convention, which
07:10they're really into the whole dominionism, uh, uh, ideology, uh, they've got, like, you
07:18know, uh, a section of, like, you know, the Seven Mountains Mandate, uh, in their booklet,
07:25and, but, uh, that can be, like, another thing for another time, and it's like, wrong, because,
07:30uh, last night when I was coming home from work, I was listening to your latest episode
07:35on dominionism and the Seven Mountains Mandate, uh, but anyway, getting back to my, my story,
07:42so, uh, I went, first I went to Messianic Bible Institute, and it was in Virginia, but
07:50that school's, uh, been, it's no longer around, uh, so then, and I did that for about three
07:57years, and then I switched over to, uh, Berean School of the Bible, which is a online Bible
08:04school affiliated with the Assemblies of God organization, and, you know, I hate that term,
08:12like, uh, it just, it just isn't set well, like, even when I was reading the bylaws of
08:19the Assemblies, uh, its full corporate name is the Corporation of the Assemblies of God
08:27of Springfield, Missouri, and I'm just thinking to myself, how far have we, how far have we
08:32fallen as a church? I mean, it's like, I, like, I know that, like, I'm a big, uh, history
08:38nerd, and I've been, for like, the last, like, year and a half, like, really diving into church
08:43history, and I've always known that the church eventually had to get organized and institutionalized,
08:50but when you start calling yourself a corporation or, uh, an organization, it's just, it doesn't
08:59sound kosher, if you will. No, it doesn't. Not if you're in that type of movement. I remember being
09:05in that movement, having these, these weird critical thoughts, because if you understand
09:11how Branhamism developed, actually, if you understand how the Assemblies developed, this
09:16was a group of people who felt like the mainstream church had either grown cold and formal or apostate,
09:23or just simply weren't, early Pentecostalism, they felt like they weren't manifesting the gift,
09:28so they must not be spiritual. So we want a new thing. And many of these groups develop
09:34independently. They say we're non-denominational. We don't want to be part of the bigger thing.
09:39And then what happens is, over time, they realize that once you grow to a certain level,
09:43you have to form, you have to form an organization, because it grows out of control if you don't.
09:48There has to be some sort of a governing body that's leading it. And it presents this array
09:54of weird problems that, you know, from people who are going their own direction, and you try to stop
10:01them to what happens if one of those people goes rogue? Do they represent the entire body? So you
10:06have to have this, some sort of an organization. Yeah. And like, and so, when I started going to
10:15Berean, one of the classes I had to take was the history of Pentecostalism. Well, the thing is,
10:24is that everything that I learned about the history of Pentecostalism, it wasn't the whole entire
10:32history, because I didn't know who John Alexander Daly was. I didn't know who Frank Sanford was,
10:41or John G. Lake. They taught, they, the information that I was taught, and given was about Charles
10:50Fox Parham, how he started, like, you know, this, this class, and the one woman, she started speaking
11:01in tongues, so he started to say that this is the, this is the, the baptism of the Holy Spirit,
11:08because of Acts chapter 2. Then you go to, uh, Azusa Street, uh, and I'm just thinking, and that's
11:17like the one, it was pretty lengthy, and even to this day, like, you know, the Assemblies of God,
11:23uh, they still hold that the Azusa Street Revival was the, the third Great Awakening, and then you get
11:33to William Branham and F.F. Bosworth, and they're only, they're briefly mentioned. Uh, you don't,
11:43when it came to William Branham, uh, they talked about how he started out as a fiery, uh, Pentecostal
11:50preacher, but then, uh, during the, his latter rain movement, uh, the Assemblies, they saw that
11:58his latter rain movement was heretical, and so therefore the Assemblies broke free from,
12:04from Branham, uh, with F.F. Bosworth, uh, I didn't realize that he, among the other 300
12:15white, uh, pastors had started the, uh, assemblies because they wanted to keep everything segregated,
12:24because in the Azusa Street Revival, it was like a mixed congregation of whites and blacks,
12:30and Parham didn't like it, Bosworth didn't like it, and so they basically broke ties,
12:37started the Assemblies, and I had no idea, uh, about that either.
12:40Yeah, and you know, not just the Assemblies, but if you look at any of the different branches
12:45that came from the Pentecostal route, there's some really strange history involved, and I'm not saying
12:51that any one of them are bad necessarily, but they just have some really strange things in their
12:56history, and the sad part is, if you start to examine them, I've mentioned this before, it's like
13:02there's a incentive to cover up the sketchy past, and I'm, I'm not really sure that that's a good idea.
13:09Within Christianity, you just don't have this, you, you should be transparent, and
13:14if there, there are problems with the church, you want to document those problems, because
13:18what happens if those problems repeat themselves?
13:22Yeah, and, uh, the other thing too, like, when it, when it came to the, uh, to the Assemblies
13:28of God, uh, if I'm not mistaken, this is basically, like, you know, Pentecostalism as a whole, um,
13:37well, one is Pentecostalism, I don't consider that, I consider one is Pentecostalism, uh, heresy,
13:45but I digress on that, but one of the, one of the core beliefs of the Assemblies of God
13:53and Pentecostalism is, uh, the third work of, of grace, which I think you've probably
14:00mentioned before in, uh, past, uh, episodes, but from my, from what, my understanding as
14:08the Assemblies of God came out of the Holiness Movement, which came from the Methodist Movement,
14:12where John Wesley was talking about the second work of grace, where basically, you continue
14:21pursuing a life of holiness until, like, you know, one day you just stop sinning altogether,
14:25and that's, like, you know, the whole entire sanctification.
14:31Pentecostalism and the Assemblies of God, uh, they had preached that the baptism of the
14:39Holy Spirit with the, uh, edification of tongues, uh, being the evidence was the third work of grace,
14:48and we were also told that if you're not speaking in tongues, you are not truly born again,
14:56and you are pretty much destined for hell, and, you know, that was one thing, like,
15:02because my brother and sister, you know, they, they were, they were freaking out, they were terrified
15:09because they weren't speaking in tongues, and so because they weren't speaking in tongues,
15:15they were afraid of everlasting, uh, damnation in hell, uh, but, you know, the one thing that
15:22when it came to speaking in tongues, uh, I was familiar with the term gloss, uh, that is a tongue
15:30twist or gloss, uh, uh, where it's just gibberish, and I remember when I, uh, was going to, uh,
15:39an Assembly of God church, uh, in, uh, Newark, Delaware, and people would, uh, be giving a message
15:48in tongues, it was the same guy, and it was, he was always saying the same words, uh, like,
15:58like, like, every service, and I'm just thinking to myself, okay, this isn't tongues, this is just
16:05gibberish, he's just saying the same words again, over and over again, uh, I can go on with that,
16:13but, you know, another thing about the Assemblies of God that, uh, I had to learn the hard way
16:21was past pastoral authority, where, and by, what I mean by that is, it's almost like the, the past,
16:30the senior pastor of the church is the supreme authority, like, yeah, they have, like, you know,
16:36trustees or deacons, depending on, on the, the church, but when I was being mentored by the, uh,
16:47senior, by the senior pastor, he, he had hired a new youth pastor, uh, and the pastor had a, uh,
16:57Bible verse, or not, not a Bible verse, it was a, uh, Bible, uh, scripture, uh, tattooed on his chest,
17:05it was from Jeremiah, and the past, the youth pastor said that he was using that as a witness statement,
17:13and so, when I was in, when I was teaching Sunday school class, and I had the pastor's granddaughter
17:23as one of my students, yeah, uh, I brought up about how, you know, God has, uh, answered our prayers,
17:34because we were praying for a new, uh, youth pastor to replace the one that had left,
17:40and all the kids got excited, uh, my, uh, pastor's grant, uh, granddaughter mentioned about the tattoo
17:49of Bible verse that he had on it, on his chest, and I said, yeah, that's, that, it's good we
17:56have
17:56a new youth pastor, however, I don't encourage any of you kids to get tattoos when you get older,
18:02because we're not supposed to mark our, our bodies like, you know, the heathens do, quoting, uh, Leviticus,
18:10so then, the following week, I was at Wednesday night Bible, uh, Bible school, and, or no, Wednesday night
18:18Bible study, and once when the service was over, uh, pastor called me into his office, and so I'm
18:27thinking, okay, we're gonna, uh, talk about what we're gonna be doing on Sunday, so he had me sit
18:34down, and as soon as he sat in his chair, there was a long pause, and he looked at me
18:41dead in the
18:41eye, and he said, you broke a cardinal rule, and I was, I was like, okay, like, what, what cardinal
18:50rule?
18:50He said, whatever decision the, the senior pastor makes is final. You know, and that's just it. There
18:58is a hierarchy within each of the individual churches, because many of them don't really
19:04adhere to a formal structure, where there's a former set of, formal set of standards and rules,
19:10what happens is you end up with miniature kingdoms and empires, and the pastor becomes the king of
19:15their domain, and it's just such a problem, because when you use your authority like this,
19:22instead of just calling you aside and saying, hey, let me teach you a little bit about what I
19:26believe, when you, you instead play the authority card, what you're showing is that you have an
19:32authoritarian control over the people, and I can't even imagine, like, what, what did that make you
19:38feel whenever, whenever this happened to you? After that, I realized that I had to be very careful with
19:43what I was saying. So, it was like, after that, uh, after that little meeting that I had, it was
19:51almost like I was walking on eggshells. Exactly. And, you know, if you read the books of the Bible
19:56that are talking about the structure of the church, there are books that talk about this. Timothy,
20:01for example, the letters that Paul wrote, it talks a little bit about it. There isn't such a
20:06situation where the pastor has a governing authority. The pastors are basically, if you understand the
20:12language, the pastors are basically servants to help the people learn the gospel, help them with
20:17their problems, etc. It's not something where they become a king of their own domain. So,
20:22the structure itself just really doesn't even match the Bible.
20:25Yeah, because the way that I've always under understood it, and theoretically, this is supposed
20:32to, that this is, it's, this is how things are supposed to, to work. You have the pastor,
20:38the bishop, you know, depending on, like, you know, the, the denomination, uh, that one is in.
20:45Then you have the deacons, the elders, and then you have the, the, the lay people, the people in the
20:52congregation. And so, I always understood it, that the pastor and the deacons are supposed to,
21:02like, you know, form like this council, where they debate on certain issues, and then come to an
21:08agreement. But it's, it, the way that I had learned from the assemblies, and then later learned from,
21:18uh, the cult that my family is, is in now, that basically, that's just a show, that everything,
21:27that the pastor, the bishop, he is the supreme authority, and though the Bible says that we are
21:35to use the scriptures to correct our brothers and sisters, or even those that are in leadership, if
21:42they are in, in error, you try to, to correct them in love, they see that as, as a threat,
21:49they see that
21:50as a challenge, and you are immediately chastised, or put off to the wayside.
21:57Yeah, I can't even imagine. I mean, if something like that happened to me, that would be the last,
22:02last moments of me being in that church. I'm, I'm guessing you didn't stay very long.
22:06Once my time with Barine was over, uh, it was time for me to go down to Mechanicsburg. Uh,
22:13uh, I live in, uh, Pennsylvania. So, like, we, I was supposed to go down to Mechanicsburg,
22:20because that's where the, uh, district, uh, Presbytery Office of the Assemblies of God is
22:24located, and I had to be interviewed for my, uh, credentials. So, when I got, got there,
22:34I was thinking to myself, okay, the first question is basically going to be, tell us about your calling.
22:39That wasn't the first question. My first question was, why did I not go to a, why did I choose
22:47to
22:47go to Berean instead of going to a Bible college like Valley Forge? And I thought to myself,
22:54does it matter where I got my education from? Because according to the bylaws of the Assemblies
23:01of God, that as long as, if you went to a seminary, Bible college, vocational school,
23:08any school that's affiliated with the Assemblies of God, that you are qualified for credentials.
23:15So, after when I told them my reasons why, because it was more convenient financially,
23:22uh, then my second question was about my calling. And after when I told them my, uh, my calling,
23:31uh, started to give like a little, uh, bit of where I stood for theologically. And I told them that
23:40I
23:40was against like, you know, the whole, uh, how should I put this? Uh, not progressive church,
23:47but, uh, basically, you know, Rick Warren's, uh, purpose-driven, uh, church movement, where basically
23:54you have to cater to the masses in order to increase your numbers and to grow financially.
24:03I told them that I was against that. Uh, one of the questions that they asked me was,
24:09so if we were to credential you today, what is your main focus going to be? And I said to
24:18them that
24:18my focus was going to be on repentance and holiness to get the bride ready for the coming, uh, of
24:25the
24:25Lord. So then after when my interview was done, I got, uh, two day, I got a letter from the
24:33district
24:33presbytery office two days later. They said that although we do see God's calling to minister in
24:40your life, we feel that you should go to a Bible college solely for relationship experiences,
24:48because I was told that it's good to go to Bible college to establish relationships with other
24:56men and women that are becoming pastors or missionaries, because you need that like, you know,
25:02strong inner circle. Uh, then they also said that I had lacked, uh, immaturity, uh, for relationships.
25:10Uh, so long story short, uh, that was devastating news for me. And I got angry at God because I
25:22thought, you know, where were you when I really needed you? This was like my biggest, uh, moment
25:26and I didn't get what I wanted. So I stopped going to church and it was around this time that
25:38my, uh,
25:39mother, uh, she was, um, making YouTube, uh, teaching videos on scripture. And she was really adamant
25:53on water baptism, uh, being essential for our, our salvation. Now I personally still believe that
26:00water baptism is a part of our salvation. You know, people on the podcast, like, uh, may disagree in that
26:09and that's okay. Uh, but, uh, she was trying, she was looking at videos, trying to find, uh, other
26:19YouTubers, uh, that believed what she believed in. And that's when she found, uh, this one, uh, video
26:28from, uh, uh, uh, an African man. And he was, uh, pre, he was talking about water baptism and he
26:37must've
26:37been talking, he must've been describing it so well that she starts to listen more of his teachings.
26:45Uh, by that point we had left the assemblies because we were, because we had come to the
26:52conclusion that they weren't following the true gospel, but then we started listening to this man.
26:59Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
27:05modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe
27:10movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham
27:16Historical Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the
27:24compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon,
27:29and others with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find
27:36resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to
27:42contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.
27:48And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening
27:53to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for
27:58your support. Years ago, when I first started working with people who had escaped different
28:03branches and sects of Pentecostalism, I came across this one lady who said that she had left her
28:09specific sect, I'm not going to name which one, and somehow she had connected with this ministry in
28:15Africa. And at the time, I was thinking, well, that sounds a little bit odd. Why didn't you find a
28:20church local to your city? And I got to thinking about it. And actually, this is part of the reason
28:25I have multiple reasons, but it's part of the reason I dug really deeply into Pentecostal history.
28:31Because if you understand Pentecostalism, there was an original event in modern Pentecostalism,
28:38you can look at Azusa Street or some of the other different events. But what happens is the people
28:44see this as the original event, they form a denomination, that denomination grows, and then
28:50it splits. Then those two grow, and they split into four or five or six. And this just keeps
28:56happening time after time after time. Each different branch of this will claim, we're the ones who are
29:03like the original, all of the others aren't. And they claim rights to the original thing, not knowing
29:11that they themselves have also changed over time. And so what you end up with is in the United States,
29:16you've got all of these different flavors of Pentecostalism, there are hundreds, if not thousands
29:20of them in the world. And not a single one can really say that they're like the original, but they
29:27all claim it, which is weird. But here's the thing, whenever the people are in this experience, they have
29:35a really, really bad experience in the United States, they start to look at some of the other
29:38branches, and they see some familiarities. And so this branch, it's too much like what I came
29:44out of, I don't want this, where do I go? And oddly, they seem to find Africa, because in Africa,
29:51the same kind of thing has happened. But each one of the ministries have progressed in a much
29:56different way. So when you look at Pentecostalism there, some of them go back to John G. Lake and
30:01the, you know, the apostolic faith missions, but they have grew and splintered and grew and splintered.
30:07And some of those are just so vastly different than the United States, that if you're looking
30:12for something that makes you uncomfortable, because it's what you had, and it's similar
30:17to what you had in the United States, well, now here's one in Africa, that's totally different.
30:21And the scary part, as I've noticed, they all seem to have some sort of a guy who claims that
30:27I'm the prophet, or I'm the new apostle, much like the new apostolic reformation. And each one of
30:32them, you look at some of the things that they claim as prophecy, and you're just kind of like,
30:36I don't know if I buy into this, man.
30:39He called himself the prophet of the Lord. His backstory is always changing. So from what I do
30:46know, he was born in 1966 in a little village, I think it's called Bono, it's in Kenya. And
30:56some accounts say that he came from a humble family. Others say that he came from an elite scientific
31:05family. His father was like a civil servant, mother was a housekeeper. His conversion story
31:15changes. He says that he came to Christ when he was a boy, but then backslid. Another account says that
31:22he became born again in 1987. When he went to the Haifa University in Israel, he was saying
31:37that his Jewish colleagues were telling him, remember Moses. And then when he came here to
31:47the U.S., even then, his stories here in the U.S. change.
31:52For people on the outside looking in, they look at all of this, you know, all these conflicting
31:56stories, people who are claiming angels or demons or prophets or whatever it is, they look at it and
32:03they think, what is this? Why would anybody want this? But if you have come from one of the
32:08Pentecostal movements that teach you in the five-fold ministry or anything similar, where God is actively
32:17moving in people like the book of Acts today, what happens is you start to look for different books
32:23of Acts. Maybe I've got the wrong book. Let's go get the other book of Acts, right? But then when
32:28you
32:28get into it, you suddenly realize, wait a minute, I don't know if I believe what these people are
32:32telling me because their stories are in conflict. Some of them aren't really that biblical. They sound
32:38more like, I don't know, some of them sound like a Stephen King book to me, but they have so
32:43many
32:44internal flaws and you're not allowed to question the flaws. Worse, what they try to do in these types
32:51of movements, they try to position themselves such that when you read the Bible and you read of a
32:55figure, they're alongside of that Bible figure. Did that guy do the same thing? He said that God gave
33:02him a dream where he was before the Ark of the Covenant, Moses and Elijah was on one side of
33:09the
33:09Ark, Daniel on the other side. And then he said that he heard a voice saying that now I have
33:17all four
33:17of my prophets together. And so basically, he believed that he was the end time prophets, the prophet
33:26quoted in Deuteronomy 18, which we all know that's, that's Christ. So then he said that he was going
33:34around trying to talk to big televangelists to try to make sense of his vision. When he didn't get an
33:46answer, he decided to go back to Kenya in 2004 to start his, his own ministry. And when you see
33:57early
33:57footages of him, he's just wearing a plain suit. He's a clean shaven because he told him that the Lord
34:03commanded him to shave off his beard and hair. And he was preaching on repentance and holiness
34:11because the church was in a state of apostasy that there was a lot of sexual immorality going on in
34:21the church. And as I'm saying all this, this is probably going to be bringing up a lot of memories
34:26from the past. So his congregation started to slowly grow. But it wasn't until 2009 when he took
34:38off. So your family got involved with this ministry from Kenya, developing ministry in Kenya, I should
34:44say. You learned of all these internal conflicts and his ministries growing, developing, starting to
34:51flourish. Did you believe that some of the claims that he made, like, did you believe he was a prophet?
34:56For a while, I thought he was a prophet. Because I was a big listener and follower of David Wilkerson.
35:06And I know that David Wilkerson, some people in the Assemblies of God highly respected him, others
35:13didn't. And from my understanding, when it came to Wilkerson, he started Times Square Church because
35:26at that point, the Assemblies kicked him out. And so he started Times Square as an interdenominational
35:31church. But I quickly, I realized now whenever you hear the term interdenominational, it's Pentecostal.
35:39You know, I've often thought the same thing. Anytime you see a non-denominational church,
35:44you get in there and nine times out of 10, it is Pentecostal. It doesn't mean that they all are,
35:48but many of them are, or they are somehow connected to the charismatic movement. There's just a lot of
35:55these. So the problem is, whenever you're in one of these groups, you come in, you get acquainted,
36:01you get to know the people. They don't really tell you what's going on. But many of them believe that
36:08their leader is somehow some figure that's biblical or even mentioned in the Bible. And so you get in
36:14there and you're unsuspecting. There's just a normal preacher, normal commigration. And then
36:19suddenly you go out to dinner with one of them and say, yes, we really believe in our Elijah or
36:24Moses or David or whatever they use. And that's whenever non-denominational really turns into,
36:30oh my gosh, I somehow just got snookered into a cult.
36:33He styles himself as the two witnesses of Revelation 2 and 1, that you have to believe
36:41that he's Moses and Elijah. If you don't, then you're going to hell.
36:47Yeah, that's my exact point. And so they build you up. They give you this feeling that they're
36:52more powerful than you. In fact, some of them go so far as they claim that they have powers that
36:58God
36:59has given them that's far, far greater than any human has. Did this guy do that?
37:04He was the one who shut down the earth with coronavirus. And he would even say,
37:12I struck Chile with an earthquake. I struck Mexico with an earthquake. I did this. I did that.
37:21If you even watch clips, there was this one clip where he said that the Lord, this was all a
37:33vision
37:34to claim why he is who he says he is. And he said that in this vision, the Lord gave
37:41him a cup
37:42of poison to drink. And he drank it. And then he died. And the whole time God was laughing at
37:50him.
37:50And then he said, when he died, he saw that his spirit was leaving the body. And then Moses and
37:57Elijah just possessed his body.
38:00Again, to people who've never been involved with this kind of thing, I'm certain that you're
38:04listening to it thinking, oh my gosh, this guy's crazy. And I'm the same crazy, right? I came out of
38:10a movement where I believe just outlandish. I believe that our leader had a magical sword.
38:15That's how bad it gets. When you're in this type of movement, it puts you into an alternate reality.
38:21And while you're in that alternate reality, literally anything that they claim you can
38:25believe, no matter how big, small, great, fantastic it is, because you have now entered into their
38:32fantasy world. What was it, do you believe, that led you out of that fantasy world?
38:37So when I started listening to his claims, and they were all boasts, and I'm thinking to myself,
38:47wait a minute, the prophets of the Old Testament, they never boasted. They never glorified themselves.
38:53They always pointed the people back to God, but they never glorified themselves.
39:01But of course, the ministry does try to justify it by saying, well, if a prophet's prophecies come to
39:11pass, then they must truly be a prophet of God. And in my early years, signs of wonders are the
39:24big
39:24thing. When I first, when I was, when I first joined, the biggest thing was the sun clapping at his
39:33healing
39:34services. And they would show like, you know, footages of the sky and the sun basically just,
39:40you know, flashing, like it would go dim, and then it would become bright. And that was, and so that
39:49was
39:49like, that was one of the big things, which was actually debunked by, because it's basically a
39:54trick of the camera.
39:55That reminds me of a book I read by James Randi, the faith healers. James Randi was a magician. He
40:02knew
40:02all of the secrets of magic, and he had a pretty good stage act. But he left the stage act
40:08because he
40:08started watching these faith healers scamming people out of their money. And the faith healers were
40:13using the same types of strategies that he had used. And he knew how to debunk them all. So whether
40:19it's a trick of the light or a sleight of the hand, or there's a multiple array of different things
40:25that
40:25they were using, which developed and got stronger over time, these ministries built into big names,
40:30and they started scamming people out of money. So he's going through he's debunking them. And the
40:36problem is, the movement was growing so fast, his debunking could not really stop it. And they
40:42developed into very authoritarian leaderships. You had people with narcissistic personalities in
40:47power. And the people are just prey to these types of individuals. So as they build their empire,
40:55they become even more narcissistic.
40:57It's funny, when he claimed himself to be Elijah, he said that the Lord showed him who the other
41:05witness was, and the other witness was going to look just like him.
41:11Unbelievable. What other tricks do they have?
41:14Another thing that they have is a picture of him being transfigured on stage where he's just
41:24completely radiant. And it reminded me of that one picture of William Branham, where he had that halo
41:35over his head. But with this transfigured image, I remember listening to one video where he said that
41:49Jesus Christ was the presence of God in human form. And then he says to his bishops and pastors,
42:00he says, it looks like the Bible is repeating somewhere. And then he points a picture of him
42:07being transfigured saying, since when do you see human beings look like this? So basically,
42:12he was proclaiming himself to be the new presence of God in human form. And
42:20you, we were even told that he was also the new Ark of the Covenant. When you call him out
42:31on all these
42:34heresies, his followers always say, but he's preaching repentance and holiness. Like the devil
42:41doesn't preach repentance and holiness. And so it's like, was William Branham like that to a degree?
42:49Oh, absolutely. It's, there's a theme that grows in the movement that the end justifies the means.
42:54So if you point out something that's just unbelievable that they're making this stuff up,
43:00they're lying, the, you know, large parts of William Branham's life story are fiction.
43:05If you point out the fiction, the actual answer that I get, believe it or not, is they'll say,
43:10well, Abraham lied. It's okay. But no, it's not okay. And why would you say that Abraham is lying?
43:16But that's usually what I get. They try to justify everything that is wrong by saying, but he did good.
43:24And, you know, I hate to say this, but Jim Jones, he was in the movement as well. And he
43:28did some good
43:29things. You can read it in the newspapers. But do you want your children to go with Jim Jones to
43:34Guyana?
43:34Absolutely not. That's the real problem with these movements.
43:38Yeah. And see, like, you know, that, and even when it comes to healings, it's mostly people that are
43:47crippled, blind, or deaf. And we all know that those miracles can be manipulated. They can be fake.
43:58Exactly. I mean, there's so many different tricks. Like I said, you can read James Randi's book,
44:03and you can see how some of these guys are doing what they're doing. Did you ever get convinced
44:08that it was so real and so true, so right, that you actually went to Kenya?
44:14I went to Kenya back in August of 2019 for one of his healing services. And I remember he was
44:30coming
44:30down the stage, walking past all of us, met this one group of Kenyans. They just fell backwards,
44:37being slain in the spirit. And I'm just standing there thinking, why wasn't I affected?
44:44Uh, but when it came to cripples being healed, I remember I saw this one, uh, this one man who
44:52was
44:52crippled. He was just laying on the ground. He was trying to stand up, but he couldn't. And then
44:58one of the ushers told him that he had to leave.
45:00Usually within these types of movements where there's a healing aspect to it, usually the people
45:07attracted, they have some need that you're not going to get from an ordinary hospital. Did you,
45:12did your family have anything that would have attracted you to the healing side of the cult?
45:16So my son's autistic and we were praying and we were out and my mom asked him if he can,
45:25if he can
45:25heal my son of his autism. He basically made the decree that my son was healed. And he said to
45:32her
45:33that it would be a slow process and then one day it will be gone. My son's, my son's autism
45:40has only, has only regressed. It's, he's still like nonverbal. And actually he's been declared
45:50intellectually disabled, uh, by a school psychologist. But I remember also that in,
45:59it was one of his, uh, revival meetings in Germany back in the summer of last year where
46:06towards the end of the service, he was saying, I lift up my prophet, my, I raised my left prophetic
46:13hand and I decree that everyone here is going to be healed of all their ailments. So then he gets
46:18down
46:18and was asking if there were any cripples. And then he saw this one young man that was just staring
46:25at
46:25him. So he came up to him and said, why are you staring looking at me like that? And the
46:31man's mother
46:32said, well, he's autistic. I'm going to pray that my God will totally heal you. Not laying on hands to
46:40heal him right there. He just said, I'm going to pray that God will restore you completely. And then he
46:47walked away saying, are there any more cripples? Are there any more cripples? And I like, I can like write
46:54a whole book. That's just so sad. I, and I'm really sorry that your family's going through this.
46:59I have friends who have a son that is autistic and the struggles that they have, I would give
47:04anything to help them. If I could, I can't even imagine being one of these so-called faith healers
47:10on a platform and making a family feel like they have false this hope when it is false hope. It
47:17just
47:17angers me. And if you look back through the movement, it's not just the autism as far back as you
47:23want
47:23to go. They're telling people that they can be healed. And as I mentioned, like John Alexander
47:28Dowie, I've done the study in the book on him. There were people who were actually dying and he
47:33wasn't telling anybody that they were dying. They would sneak their bodies out after, you know,
47:38after dark. But yet these people had these false hope that their family members who they
47:43gave to Dowie's care would be healed. Now, I have a huge problem with this because if you're a good
47:49person, you don't do this. You don't give people false hope. If you're a Christian,
47:54you denounce this kind of thing. But even just, you know, take Christianity out of the equation.
47:59Just good people don't do this to other people. So, like I say, I'm sad that you're going through
48:05this. I'm actually breaking up a little bit, trying to hold my emotions in, but I'm pretty angry that
48:12this happens. If you could give advice to people who are experiencing this, not just in what you're
48:17describing, but this is a broad, this is a broad issue that's in many different groups that have
48:23descended from Pentecostalism, what advice would you give them?
48:27If the only advice, like real advice I can give them is to, first off, continue to study the scriptures
48:36scriptures. And the other thing too, the other piece of advice that I can give them is
48:46like really focus on your relationship with God. The more I started educating myself in scripture,
48:57reading the writings of the early church fathers, the reformers, and listening to podcasts and videos,
49:06like yours, for example, it does help me to solidify my decision of leaving. And the other piece of
49:22advice I can give is just, you know, don't be afraid to stand up. You know, don't be afraid to
49:28stand up for
49:29the truth. Even if your loved ones believe that you have completely turned your back on God,
49:38which was my, my case for for a long, for a long time.
49:45Well, thank you so much for doing this. And I'm just, like I said, I'm so sorry that you're having
49:50to go through this. And this is something that you'll have to go through for a long time with your
49:54son. I just, I get so angry that people would abuse somebody who's struggling. I can't, I can't
50:02imagine hitting somebody when they're down, but that's what these people do. That's what these
50:05movements do. And just to, just to let you know, and to the audience, because I'm certain you'll be
50:12curious, I'm going to go back and I'm going to cut out the name of the group that you've mentioned
50:17and cut out some of the details. Because as you've been talking, I'm pulling it up on my screen here.
50:22And this seems to be a very active group. That's very dangerous. And I don't want to do anything
50:29that would put you at further risk than you already have gotten yourself into by getting involved with
50:34this group. But I don't want any danger to you. And I don't want any risk to anybody else who
50:40might
50:40get sucked into this. So I'll be cutting the names out. Hopefully people can connect with the story
50:46anyway, because this is a common story. This is not that unusual. Yes, it's in Kenya. Yes, it's a
50:52you know, it's a quite different group than what we have in the United States. But if you look at
50:58the doctrines and look at the structural framework, how different is it? As you've mentioned, some of
51:02the things that you're seeing, they match exactly what Branham was doing. And you had all of these
51:06groups that spawned off of Branhamism. So like I say, I'm just sad that this has happened to you. So
51:13thank you so much for doing this.
51:14I am my pleasure.
51:16Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story,
51:19you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org. For more about the
51:24dark
51:24side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to
51:29the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
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