- 14 minutes ago
Dallas Cowboys Executive Vice President Stephen Jones joined the K&C Masterpiece ahead of the NFL Draft. They discussed roster-building philosophy, the importance of the draft, and how the Cowboys evaluate prospects. Jones also broke down the value of 30 visits, the dynamic of draft trades, and more.
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00:00Bring on Dallas Cowboys Executive Vice President Stephen Jones.
00:04Good afternoon, sir.
00:05Good afternoon, guys.
00:07Man, how are we doing? It's been a while since we chatted.
00:10Well, I'm doing really good.
00:12You've just been, I had a busy offseason, as you know,
00:15between our and our defensive coaching staff,
00:19free agency, and then draft preparation, we've had our hands full.
00:23You know, and I heard, and there's even more than that.
00:26But, you know, there's reports that Jerry was at the bargaining session last week
00:32with the Referees Association, and I would love to know from you,
00:36especially being part of the competition committee,
00:38how important do you believe it is for the NFL to get a deal done
00:42with the Referees Association and the regular refs for the regular season?
00:46Well, because of my role on the competition, I was actually there as well.
00:51And certainly, you know, we'd like to agree to a deal with our officials.
00:57You know, at the same time, it's a work in progress.
01:00We have a lot of respect, but also, you know, it's business.
01:04And, you know, just like any other negotiation, until it's done,
01:08you really don't like to comment on anything.
01:10These are always cordial visits, too, right?
01:12No fisticuffs breaking out there?
01:14No, they were professional and cordial.
01:16Okay, I like to hear that.
01:17You know, we've talked with you a lot about the salary cap in the past,
01:23and I know people get caught up about when they talk about the draft,
01:26they say, hey, what does the team need right now?
01:29But whenever you talk about the salary cap,
01:31you talk about planning two, three, four years into the future.
01:35Do you have to have that same kind of mindset when you go into these drafts?
01:40Yeah, I think it's all part of, you know, the bigger picture.
01:45And you certainly, you know, as you focus on the draft and what it can be for you
01:51and what that's going to look, I mean, one of the great things about our draft,
01:56especially this day and time, whether it's college or almost anything,
02:00for us to have, you know, personnel certainty, if you can have success in the draft,
02:07you know you're going to have that player either four or five years, you know,
02:12at a number that's reasonable.
02:14And certainly that's why I think, you know, most teams would tell you
02:19that's the foundation of their football team.
02:23You know, with the salary cap that we have today, it's so important.
02:27You know, the draft's just so important.
02:29Would that potentially lure you into saying, you know what,
02:33we'd be okay taking an older player in the draft because maybe as they get a little older,
02:38we don't have to get that second contract with them.
02:40Where does that matter?
02:41Well, it's interesting you bring that up.
02:43I think, you know, these players that are older, I think it's a two-edged sword.
02:48One is really good.
02:50Certainly you're seeing it with quarterbacks.
02:53We were just talking about offensive linemen, how important it is as well.
02:58But some of these guys coming out are 24, 25 years old.
03:02But the flip side of that is they have a tremendous amount of experience,
03:08which really helps them transition right into the professional game.
03:13You know, the more and more you look at these things,
03:16these players who only have started, you know, 12 games in college, you know,
03:2124 is obviously a lot better, and 36 is better than that,
03:25and a four-year starter is better than that.
03:27But, you know, that really enables them to transition usually at a faster rate.
03:34If they have the – right, you've still got to have the skill set
03:37and the things that come with being a professional football player, but that helps.
03:42Now, the downside of that is some of them are going to be then 28, 29, 30 years old
03:48when they come up on their second contract.
03:51Now, you just mentioned, obviously, quarterback could be one position,
03:55that that would be beneficial.
03:56Are there any other positions the team has identified as saying,
03:59you know what, more starts, and perhaps sometimes an older player
04:03is not so bad at these positions either?
04:05No, I just mentioned it.
04:07The offensive line, I think, is really – it's an advantage to have played.
04:11It's really coming into play in our evaluations.
04:14How many years have they started at a particular school?
04:18So, certainly, you know, anything that – any position that gets into
04:24a really, you know, needing experience is helpful.
04:28Obviously, some of the more skilled, highly, highly skilled positions,
04:34whether it's a corner or a receiver or a running back, those type of places,
04:39you could obviously get away with having elite athletic skills
04:43and being, you know, quite a bit younger and not as much experience.
04:47Now, Stephen, have you fallen in love with any one particular player
04:53or do you think there will be a player you're going to love landing at 12
04:56no matter what?
04:57Well, in the draft, you can fall in love with many, unlike life.
05:04You're with your wife.
05:07In the draft, you certainly can fall in love with multiple players,
05:13and certainly we have a bunch of players on the board that we really have a high opinion of
05:19that we think could really help our football team.
05:22And certainly that's how you end up stacking them.
05:24And if they're in our first round, probably any team would say this,
05:31then there's a lot of love for that player.
05:33I'm guessing perhaps, since you just mentioned that, the draft board isn't totally locked in just yet,
05:38but do you have a general idea of maybe how many first-round grades y'all are going to have?
05:44It's still a little early, but, you know, usually we're in that 16 to 20, 21, 22 range.
05:51That's a big number right there.
05:53I like hearing that one right now.
05:54I don't know that we'll get there this year, you know, in terms of the 20s,
06:00but, you know, we're grinding it out right now, and as you said,
06:05we hadn't put the final grades on anything, and, you know,
06:09this will obviously evolve into a board that we really have confidence in.
06:15As you guys are putting together that board, I've always been fascinated.
06:18How much do you feel like you can learn from the players that have the draft visits with y'all,
06:23that obviously wouldn't pop up by just watching film?
06:27Yeah, I think any time you get to spend more time with a player,
06:30and especially when you bring one in for a 30 visit,
06:32you're getting almost 24 hours with that player to really, you know,
06:37delve deep into a lot of areas, and, you know,
06:41I think that's why we've ended up over the years drafting quite a few guys
06:45that were actually in on the 30 visit.
06:48Now, they're coming on the 30 visit because, obviously,
06:50we've seen a lot of things that are interesting to us,
06:54and we want to get to know more about those particular players
06:58and even have more detailed work on them.
07:01We've discussed Jermaud McCoy a lot, special talent, as a lot of these guys are.
07:07We did hear Jerry say no red shirts, and we've kind of stuck with that a lot.
07:11Do you think he qualifies a red shirt, or has he cleared that hurdle for you guys?
07:15Yeah, that's a work in progress.
07:17We're trying to, you know, do all the work that we need to do to, you know,
07:22to get our hands around what his status will be for, you know,
07:28we start with everything, what his status is for the mini camps,
07:31what his status is for the training camp,
07:34and then ultimately we'll be able to play part of the season, none of the season.
07:40You know, all those are levels that then we put into an equation
07:44and decide where we might come down on that particular player.
07:49And you kind of discussed, you know, the amount of games earlier,
07:52but how much does missing one full year affect your approach with a guy?
07:57No, this happens, and there's been a lot of players in this league
08:00that miss a year due to injury that really come back and have great careers.
08:04So I don't know that that's a deciding factor.
08:08I think, obviously, you know, if you miss the entire year this year
08:14or miss the back half of the year,
08:16but it's going to linger into a big part of our coming season,
08:20then that's probably a bigger factor than somebody who just missed last year
08:25but is ready to go, already ready to go and start mini camp.
08:29There are a lot of folks who kind of think this draft will be more trade-filled
08:34than past drafts.
08:35Have you gotten that sense at all nine days out that have there been more phone calls
08:39or pre-draft team-to-team discussion compared to maybe a usual draft?
08:45No, I think it's too early to tell that.
08:47I think, you know, next week as people finalize their boards
08:51and start to strategize, have their strategy sessions,
08:55then that comes into play.
08:56But I'm still a big believer that most of these trades, you know,
09:00happen, you know, as you're on the board.
09:02Players fall off that you wanted and then you're willing to come out.
09:07Players are staying on the board that you might not think might be there
09:10and then you're tempted to move up a little bit.
09:13You might not be willing to, you know, give up what it costs to go way up the draft.
09:19But if a player starts to fall, then you get a little thought that, hey,
09:24maybe we could move up and it wouldn't cost as much
09:27and we still get the guy that, you know, that we think is the best player for us
09:32in a particular draft depending on where you pick.
09:35Can you – I always love, Kevin, and I try to play this game a little bit.
09:38Can you describe the anatomy of a trade?
09:41Like what's that really like in that room on those phones from your past experience as that?
09:46My past experience is that normally when you're on the clock is when the activity starts
09:55and usually it's someone calling you wanting to move up is usually how it happens.
10:02Usually if you're wanting to move down and you're starting to have to call, you know,
10:06the next 15 teams below you, that's not a good sign.
10:09Usually if someone's wanting to come up, they're calling you.
10:12And especially, you know, in the first round, but usually that holds for the whole draft
10:18that, you know, teams see a player they want and they call.
10:22And, you know, you hope in a lot of cases that two or three teams are calling for the pick
10:26and then you have a competitive situation for your particular pick
10:31and especially if you're willing to come out of it.
10:33But you would never, never say, well, really?
10:36Because the Ravens just said they would offer me this as a bluff, right?
10:40Well, I can't speak for other people and I probably shouldn't speak to us.
10:46Okay.
10:47All right.
10:47Fair enough.
10:48I think they're always honest, Kevin.
10:49Sure.
10:50Everybody in all aspects of life is always honest.
10:53Now, we've talked a lot about the origins way back in the day of the Jimmy Johnson trade value chart
10:59for the draft.
11:00How much has that evolved, whether it's, you know, more of a Rich Hill model or anything else?
11:05Has that draft value chart changed a lot over the decades?
11:10Well, I have to correct you in all due respect.
11:15That was a Mike McCoy draft chart.
11:18At the end of the day, I watched him put it together and he showed me how he was putting
11:23it together.
11:23Obviously, Jimmy and Jerry used it.
11:25But that was a Mike McCoy draft chart who was a valedictorian at Oklahoma and petroleum engineers and understood how
11:34to chart those things and come up with values.
11:38Now, you can imagine with analytics and AI the way they are today, these charts are constantly evolving.
11:45You've got to know the data that's going into them to understand it.
11:50Everybody has, you know, what is, quote, unquote, what most people feel like is a standard over the last, you
11:58know, three to five years.
12:00But then there's always one that you might have that you say, hey, we think the draft charts evolved and
12:07it may give you an advantage if someone's willing to go off the old chart.
12:11It may give you an advantage in what you feel analytically is the true value.
12:16I like how he's giving those engineers their credit.
12:19Oh, yeah.
12:19No, I appreciate that info.
12:22Steven, I always wonder how challenging it is to get a read on players from smaller programs like, say, a
12:28Toledo or something like that versus bigger programs like maybe a Texas based on how their competition is.
12:35How much weight does that have and how do you all go through that?
12:39Yeah, I think it's big.
12:40I mean, obviously, it's able to project, you know, if you're coming from a power four school, you know, for
12:47a top program playing against the very best.
12:50And obviously, you know, that's even more so the case today is some of these smaller school young men, you
12:59know, have found their way to the top power four schools within IL and all the things that are out
13:04there now.
13:04So there's not near as many, you know, players playing at, you know, at the smaller schools, obviously, you know,
13:13you have had the occasional I mean, rebel was one of those guys that was at a small school and
13:19he stuck with, you know, where he was and you run across those guys.
13:24So, but at the end of the day, certainly, you like to see that's why you have a senior bowl,
13:31you like to see these guys going against, you know, top level competition that are going to be drafted as
13:38well, versus, you know, it's harder to project when you see them against a lot lesser level of competition.
13:45Now, obviously, they should be dominant, but you still got to do some projecting that is more difficult than when
13:52you, you know, you see Alabama and Georgia going at it and seeing those guys compete against one another, you
13:59get a better feel for what it's going to look like on our level.
14:03Obviously, Stephen, for us, it's really exciting to have two first round picks.
14:07It's a, you know, opportunity to do something special.
14:10How much of a culture changing mentality are you looking for in one or both of these picks?
14:15Does that need to be a factor?
14:17Yeah, I think it all factors in at the end of the day.
14:21And certainly we're trying to create an identity and a culture overall for this football team.
14:27Certainly on defense, we felt like we lacked that last year, defense in particular, that we didn't have the identity,
14:35the culture, you know, that we needed, that the players were buying into and playing with an edge.
14:42And certainly that's the goal.
14:44And then ultimately the goal is to have a culture and an identity for our entire football team that Shottie's
14:50trying to develop in terms of, you know, the type of men that we bring in here to compete day
14:56in and day out.
14:57You know, that certainly, you know, when they're working together every day are a positive influence on what we're ultimately
15:05trying to be as an organization, as a football team.
15:08You know, we're talking to Stephen Jones right here on 105.3 The Fan.
15:11You walk through something that I think is really fascinating and fans fall into this trap.
15:15I have been guilty of this trap.
15:18Do you think sometimes the fan base might underestimate the difficulty of trading back when you were lining up like,
15:25hey, we should have traded back.
15:27We could have got that same player.
15:28Do you think people underestimate how tough it is when your pick is up and nobody is calling?
15:33There's that old deal when the phone doesn't ring.
15:37You know it's me or it's a problem.
15:40And certainly, you know, when you're trying to call and go back, the price goes way down and it's really
15:47hard to get value.
15:48We've certainly attempted if we really do want to trade down.
15:53But most of the time, you know, when you're having to make those calls to say, hey, would you give
15:58me something for this?
15:59What would you give me for this pick?
16:01Or here's what the chart says.
16:03Would you be willing to do it?
16:05We're willing to come out.
16:06It's not near as successful as when the phone's ringing and they're wanting to come up and get the pick.
16:11Have you guys, I know you said it'll heat up a lot last week.
16:14Can you confirm or deny if you guys have gotten any calls for first round pick offers for George Pickens
16:20thus far?
16:22Yeah, you know, you hate to get into things like that.
16:25But no, we've had no one call, you know, with interest in George Pickens.
16:32All right, last thing from me, Stephen, before we let you go.
16:34Could you see yourself falling in love with an Ohio State player?
16:39Absolutely.
16:41You look at that and no way is this being critical.
16:45But you look at some of their guys and you go, how in the hell did they ever lose a
16:49football game?
16:51But when you look at all the Buckeyes that are on the board, and obviously they had a great, great
16:55football team.
16:57And hats off to Indiana.
16:59They ended up putting it together and were able to pull it off and win the thing.
17:04But certainly the Buckeyes have more than their fair share of guys in the first round of this draft.
17:11Thank you very much for the time, as always.
17:14And we'll catch up with you again after the draft.
17:16Appreciate being on with you guys.
17:17There you go, Stephen Jones right here on 105.3 The Fan.
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