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00:00I've been, you know, really locked in on the baseball season as I always am.
00:03And so I'm reading all the previews and all of that stuff.
00:05And a question was worded that I really loved off of a podcast I was listening to,
00:10which is effectively why I'll Ben Lindbergh make a rally.
00:12If you're a baseball nerd, it's a wonderful pod.
00:15But they were doing a season preview and they were asking all these beat reporters this question.
00:19And I loved the way that it was worded.
00:23And so I wanted to ask you and get your thoughts on this and then have my own as well.
00:28What constitutes success for the 2026-27 Cleveland Browns?
00:35And I love wording it in that way because then that way we're not sitting here going,
00:40well, if they don't win six games, then it's a failure.
00:42Well, if they don't win eight games, then it's a failure.
00:45Like that way we're kind of looking at this with a little bit of a wider spectrum in going,
00:51okay, what looks like success for this team?
00:56Because I think we can all look at each other and go, okay, this seems like year two of the
01:00rebuild.
01:01Might be a little rocky.
01:03Maybe we won't see this as much as the win-loss department.
01:07But is there another way that we can look at this and determine what success will look like?
01:13To me or to D and Jimmy Haslam?
01:15Because that's all that really matters.
01:16That's a good, that's a wrinkle.
01:17There's a wrinkle.
01:18So to me, let's go to Tom Withers and then we'll think of it.
01:21We'll put our, to me, success this coming season, right?
01:26Especially for Andrew Barry is to, I don't know if you have to hit a home run again in the
01:31draft,
01:32but you got to hit a triple, right?
01:34You got to have another really strong draft because that's obviously where you feel like you're,
01:39the core of your rebuild is going to come from.
01:42Got to have a good draft.
01:43You feel like you've had a pretty good free agency, right?
01:45You've addressed some needs, okay?
01:48So you got to get the draft right.
01:50The quarterback conundrum continues, right?
01:53So you've got to figure out if you're going with a bridge,
01:56if you're going to continue to develop Shadour, whatever the case may be,
02:01you've got to make ground at the quarterback position, whatever that looks like, okay?
02:06And however that plan goes.
02:09You've got to take then last year's draft class and continue to develop it.
02:14Oh, by the way, with mostly a new coaching staff, right?
02:18So it has to shift from, okay, we got you the guys.
02:21Here are the guys.
02:23Make them better.
02:24That has to happen as well.
02:26And I think you've got to win six games or more.
02:32Like if I've got, if you have to, if you're going to mandate Dan putting a number on wins,
02:36you've got to go six plus minimum.
02:39And this is where I get into a little bit of a weird take on how this is going to
02:45go for Todd Munkin,
02:46because I know Todd Munkin, who has waited his entire life for this kind of job,
02:50is going to want to win.
02:51And I think it's going to be very difficult, as we've heard this from other managers
02:54and other coaches in various sports, it is so hard to develop and win at the same time.
03:00It's impossible.
03:01It really is.
03:01So I think that's going to be the dilemma for Todd, at least in the early stages of this season.
03:06And again, all that matters to him is whatever the mandate is that's coming down from above,
03:10because that's how you save your ass is by, excuse me, save your job, is by doing what the boss
03:17tells you to do.
03:18So that's first and foremost.
03:20So my first one of what will constitute a success for this season is a very, very simple one.
03:26Just be watchable.
03:27Like, I know that sounds really, really like bare minimum.
03:31Aren't they always watchable?
03:32It's watchable.
03:32No, last year it was not watchable for a chunk of it.
03:36It was painful.
03:37Yeah.
03:38The offense was so inept at any point.
03:42It was just horrendous.
03:43It was, to use the Jeff Phelps word, it was putrid to sit there and watch that offense.
03:48And that was mostly during the Gabriel games.
03:50Correct.
03:50And then at least when Shador came onto the field.
03:52But even with Flacco in the beginning.
03:54Yeah, it was bad.
03:54It was bad.
03:55It was unwatchable football.
03:57The defensive side was so much fun to watch because they were just absolutely dominant.
04:02But boy, it takes a very, very keen eye to thoroughly enjoy a defensive struggle and thoroughly enjoy the greatness
04:09that defense makes.
04:10Yeah.
04:11A lot of people were tuning in because they want to watch fireworks.
04:14I think that's part of the reason why as many people as they do and still are on the Shador
04:18bandwagon saying that he should be the starter.
04:20Because at least when he came in, the ball got moved down the field.
04:22It was watchable.
04:23You're right.
04:23It became watchable.
04:24You're right.
04:24So, like, I know that sounds so bad.
04:27And you were looking for nuance at that point, right?
04:29You were, like, breaking down his throws, his dropbacks, all of that stuff.
04:33So, it became watchable from an X's and O's standpoint because not only were you excited to see him out
04:38there actually throwing the ball down the field,
04:40but you wanted to see progress and you wanted to see development.
04:42Well, in goodness, Tom, the ball was going 10 yards down the field in the air.
04:46Like, just even, like, watching that compared to, like, it looked like for a while with Dylan Gabriel, it was
04:52a borderline service academy.
04:53Like, it felt like you were sitting there watching that.
04:56They're running the veer again.
04:57Where you're sitting there.
04:58We always used to joke at the Army-Navy game is it's the only, if you drank for every forward
05:03pass that was caught,
05:04it's the only drinking game you could ever play where you could still drive home.
05:06There you go.
05:07And that was how I felt watching the Browns offense at one point.
05:09Where it was, like, the ball went 10 yards down the field.
05:13Yeah.
05:14Like, what?
05:14What are we doing?
05:15Okay, so then beyond watchable, what else?
05:17So, I know that sounds really, really like.
05:19Yeah, give me some other quantitative, though, beyond watchable.
05:22So, baseline is be watchable.
05:23The other side of it, too, is I said the goal last year of the Cleveland Browns in 2025-26
05:30was to figure out if the quarterback of the future was either A, on the roster, or B, in the
05:36draft.
05:37And that a failure of that season would be if the answer is C, uh-uh.
05:41Yeah.
05:41And sadly, we felt a, uh-uh.
05:44And so now we're rolling into the season, and I think the same goal remains, which is figure out if
05:50the quarterback of the future of the Cleveland Browns is either A, on the roster, or B, in the draft.
05:56And if we walk out once again with, uh-uh, we have a real problem on our hands that we
06:01need to solve.
06:01Well, that won't be the case, though, because you've already moved to the point where Shadur is, at least you're,
06:07if not the guy, at least somebody that you're going to give the keys to the card to for a
06:13number of games.
06:14Right?
06:14And I do think, at the end of the day, that is what is going to happen.
06:17I agree with you as well.
06:18I know people keep talking about this competition in the spring or what have you.
06:22Unless something very dramatic happens, I think Shadur Sanders is going to be your starter on opening day.
06:26I do.
06:27That could change in about five minutes, too, with the way things happen, especially with the Browns.
06:33But I don't think, Dan, I don't think you're going to come out of the season, like you said, saying,
06:37uh, because we're not going to know.
06:39Because I think five games in, you're going to know whether or not this guy is going to be your
06:43franchise quarterback going forward.
06:45And we're not there yet.
06:46They're not there yet.
06:46I look at this Browns season, and to me, they're in year two of the rebuild, Tom.
06:51Like, that's what this is.
06:52This is year two of the rebuild.
06:53They've revamped the line.
06:54They brought in a whole bunch of veterans.
06:56They're probably going to bring in a rookie left tackle as well.
06:59We assume that's where that's going to go.
07:01Are they?
07:02You think?
07:03Yeah, I think so.
07:04Do you?
07:04Yeah.
07:05Why?
07:05You just can't trust DeJuan as necessarily the...
07:08I don't think he can stay healthy.
07:09Yeah.
07:10You know, I was talking about that with somebody.
07:11Oh, it was Scott Petrak earlier today.
07:14I had a little phone conversation this morning.
07:17DeJuan's an interesting case, isn't he?
07:18I mean, it was really...
07:19It was bad luck last year, right?
07:21It was a borderline dirty hit.
07:22It was.
07:23That cost him the rest of the season.
07:24It was.
07:25It was.
07:25You're right.
07:26Yeah, I know it's hard to, like, put faith into him there.
07:29But, I mean, are you going to take a guy at six with not really a proven...
07:34I mean, you can't...
07:35I guess you could talk me into the Georgia kid, the Freeland kid, because I know he kind
07:39of fits the profile, checks a lot of the boxes.
07:42Right.
07:42I'm not sure that's the way I go.
07:44But, anyway, I got you off track.
07:45No, no, no, no, no.
07:46Dude, we're shooting a breeze about sports.
07:48I got you.
07:49I got you.
07:49So, like, it's...
07:52I'm with you on that one, and I know this sounds so bad as well, but it's kind of like
07:56one
07:56of those where it's like you're looking at all these guys, especially now, modern college
08:01football.
08:02I mean, I will never forget, we were talking with Mike Martz about this, and Martz said
08:06as he goes, offensive line play in college has never been worse than it is right now,
08:09because everybody is in the spread offenses, get the ball out quick, all that kind of stuff.
08:15Nobody is working with these guys.
08:16You can't figure out what they are.
08:17Yeah, no one's working with these guys.
08:19I'm footwork.
08:19No one's working with these guys.
08:21I'm pass blocking, hand placement, all that kind of stuff.
08:23It's basically like, okay, here's the bare minimum.
08:25All right, giant human, make sure the other guy doesn't get past you.
08:28And I'll never, I'll never get that out of my head as Mike Martz saying that to me.
08:34So, anytime you get these guys coming in, it's going to fall on an offensive line coach,
08:39and you're essentially doing nothing but saying, okay, this set of tools can be developed
08:44to a step farther to where this guy can be an above-average offensive line coach.
08:48That's interesting you say that, Dan, and especially given this year where they're talking about
08:51a couple of these projected tackles as being guards and vice versa.
08:56Like, you're not even sure where they're going to play in the NFL.
08:59Right.
08:59But goodness, I'll give you the perfect example.
09:01Guy you signed in, Elgin Jenkins.
09:03Elgin Jenkins has played tackle for the Packers.
09:06He's played center for the Packers.
09:07He's played guard for the Packers.
09:08He's done all those things.
09:09Now, that's also a Packers thing where they train all of their offensive linemen to play all three.
09:12Interchangeables, yeah.
09:13To make them interchangeable so then that way they can get their best five on the field at all times.
09:16And it works for them besides last year, but that's – nobody cares.
09:20We're not in Wisconsin doing, you know, open radio.
09:24So, it's – I wonder when it comes to, like, those kind of guys who are saying, okay,
09:30well, he can go in and play guard as well.
09:32Like, Elgin Jenkins is a guard.
09:33Like, if you talk to anybody there, they will tell you Elgin Jenkins should be playing guard.
09:37That's his best position.
09:39That's where he would make an all-pro or possibly a pro bowl.
09:42He can play center, but that's not his strength.
09:44And I wonder if maybe that's the era we're in now where all of these guys are just going to
09:49end up being some level of interchangeable outside of somebody –
09:53I mean, like, Makai Becton is the perfect example.
09:56They brought Makai Becton in, and he was super raw out of Louisville.
10:00And – oh, shoot.
10:02The Jets were the ones who brought him in.
10:04And they worked with him for a period of time.
10:06The Eagles picked him up after the Jets went, eh, he doesn't have it.
10:09Said he's a guard.
10:09Bopped him to guard.
10:11Worked with him on guard.
10:12Now, granted, they had that O-line coach who's –
10:13Is that DeJuan Jones, by the way?
10:15Maybe that is.
10:16And maybe that turns into the DeJuan Jones story is that you – the same way you see Makai Becton.
10:20But I wonder with DeJuan as well if he's – destiny might be right tackle instead of left tackle.
10:25You know, if maybe that footwork has something to do with it.
10:28But, yeah, yeah, maybe.
10:30I mean, they devoted some time to him in trying to figure it out, right?
10:33Yeah.
10:33And I thought he looked pretty good.
10:34I mean, all things considered, right?
10:36Right.
10:36He's been kind of a diamond in the rough, if you will, for them over the last couple years.
10:40Got to stay healthy.
10:41Got to stay on the field.
10:42But he's carried so much weight.
10:44I know.
10:44And that's the other part of it is, I mean, you know, goodness, I mean, offensive linemen are like hockey
10:49players
10:49where they're, you know, nursing these injuries that you have no idea about until the end of the year.
10:53Exactly.
10:54And then all of a sudden, Joel Batonio's like, yeah, at about week six, I had a punctured lung for
10:58about two weeks in between there.
10:59And, you know, actually –
11:00Throw some dirt on it and got out there.
11:01And, you know, Joel Batonio's like, yeah, you know, week 10, my left arm fell off.
11:05And we popped that back in and taped it up.
11:07And I went the rest of the game.
11:08And you're just like, what are you – what are you, a Viking?
11:10Yeah.
11:10Like, this is insanity.
11:12And so I wonder if maybe that's where it is.
11:16So I would go tackle if you're – but the number one thing is you brought George Warhop in here.
11:21And he's got such this, like, track record that I hope they're sitting down with him and going, all right,
11:25here's Monroe Freeling.
11:27What do we got?
11:28Here's the kid from Miami whose name I can never pronounce.
11:32Manua or Manua, whatever.
11:33Yeah, I got you.
11:34Yep, yep.
11:34And the two guys from Utah.
11:36Yep.
11:36Watch this tape.
11:37Mm-hmm.
11:38Of these four, tell me which one is your favorite.
11:40And then give me your second favorite for left tackle.
11:43And then watch them and tell me who's your favorite and your second favorite for guard.
11:49And then have – you know, because you've got these guys in there, and I bet they're doing this.
11:53And then I would make either six or –
11:57Twenty-four.
11:58Twenty-four.
11:59That would be the move that I would go with, depending on what your offensive line guru is telling you.
12:04I don't disagree with you, except, though, it feels like their moves in free agency are getting you away from
12:09that.
12:10I think it's going more toward now wide receiver slash best player available at both –
12:17Actually, I'm sticking with what I've been thinking since day one, which is that they're going to trade out a
12:21six.
12:22Because I feel like they don't necessarily have – they can obviously add some assets.
12:27I don't hate that.
12:28Yeah.
12:29But there's also another part of me that's like, man, you need –
12:32Don't pass on – yeah.
12:33You need blue chippers.
12:34You do.
12:34You need blue chippers on offense.
12:36We have seen enough times – like, I love – one of my favorite exercises to do is to look
12:40at the final four teams every single year in the conference championships and see how they're built.
12:45And, like, you need blue chippers.
12:48And one – by the way, one of the things that I found out of that, if you want something
12:51that'll make you feel good about the Browns coming in the next season, middle defensive tackle pass rush.
12:57Right?
12:58Those guys coming in, pushing those guards, pushing those centers, the four teams that made it to the conference championships
13:03were the top four teams in defensive tackle pass rush.
13:08You were right there, too.
13:10Yeah.
13:11I think the Browns were either five or six.
13:13Is that right?
13:13Mm-hmm.
13:13Well, as we've seen, D-tackles make your superstar D-end a lot better.
13:18Exactly.
13:18And help out with –
13:19So if you want to feel good about the direction of this franchise, that's one of the ways that you
13:22can circle.
13:23Which is, again, very nuanced and minutiae, but one of those things I went, damn, okay, that's good to know.
13:28But also interesting to hear Andrew Barry say that they were going to rebuild their line in the framework of
13:33the Chicago Bears and how they did it.
13:35Right.
13:35And we've seen some of that already in free agency.
13:38Yeah.
13:39So, again, that's what leads me to believe that that's not necessarily where they're going to go in the first
13:43round.
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