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00:00I gave him the Peterland pass for basically just going along with whatever Ken said this morning
00:05when Ken was throwing his big temper tantrum.
00:07Turned into Ken's lapdog.
00:08However, however, I will not forgive him for this take.
00:13And this is a conversation that obviously stemmed from the conversations everybody's had over the week here
00:20where, oh gosh, who the hell was it now I'm forgetting,
00:23that said Todd Munkin's more likely to be one and done?
00:27Robert Mays.
00:28Robert Mays.
00:29That's who it was.
00:29Robert Mays.
00:30And then Daryl bequeathed us all this take.
00:33Todd Munkin's not going to be the head coach when they open the stadium in Brook Park.
00:37I'm convinced of that.
00:38His job right now is to put this thing back together, and if he does win, then yes.
00:45But I'm not convinced that they're going to win at the level that will prompt them to stay the course.
00:54They feel, hey, should have won seven, eight games last season.
00:57So I kind of feel like that is the bar for Todd Munkin this year.
01:01Go win those games this year that Kevin couldn't last year.
01:05That's the step forward.
01:07All right.
01:08He gave us a lot there.
01:09There are about three separate takes that you can digest from there.
01:13I hate the take.
01:15hate it, hate it, hate it, hate it.
01:17That we haven't even seen Todd Munkin coach one damn game here.
01:23We haven't even seen, like, training camp.
01:24Yeah.
01:25Right?
01:25OTAs, which we wouldn't really see.
01:26But training camp.
01:27We really haven't seen anything.
01:28We don't even know what this roster officially is going to look like by the end of the offseason.
01:34And to say what I think is wildly unfair, oh, he's not going to be here when this thing goes
01:41to Brook Park.
01:42And the reason why it's unfair is, one, half the coaches hired this last cycle aren't going to be there.
01:51If they're lucky, half the coaches won't be there by the time we get to Brook Park.
01:55We just had 10 new coaches hired this offseason.
01:57And I do think Daryl's erring on the side of, the Browns aren't the best-run organization.
02:02I don't think he was fair to Todd Munkin, though.
02:04I think you have to understand, every coach is different.
02:08And I think it's really, I think it's easy and maybe a little low-hanging fruit to kind of throw
02:14that out there for Todd Munkin when we haven't seen anything yet.
02:16There's just way too many variables at play to even start to have the convo.
02:20Now, again, I saw the path with Robert Mays.
02:24I really did.
02:24Like, there is a path out there that exists that after one season, Todd Munkin is just gone and that's
02:29it.
02:29And that pathway, it would be built around the idea that in 2027, they're lined up to take this new
02:34quarterback.
02:35Maybe Andrew Barry's also out of the mix as well.
02:37New GM in there.
02:38And they want a brand-new head coach because all of a sudden, they're in line to take Arch Manning.
02:42And the positioning is right for basically a big whale of a head coach to go ahead and step in
02:47there and do it.
02:48But there's a lot that has to happen for that to play out that way.
02:50Yeah, like, when we get back to that idea of probability, everybody talks about could it happen when a vacuum
02:56almost anything can happen.
02:58I think the things that would have to happen for Todd Munkin to be a one-and-done candidate are
03:03very far-fetched at this point.
03:05I just don't think we're there or we've seen any evidence of it.
03:09And I do think, like, there's an element of, like, I was really peeved about, not that Robert had the
03:16take, because that's fine.
03:17You can have whatever take you want.
03:19But I was peeved at the idea that the Browns would do this.
03:21And the anger came from the fact that they've done this previously.
03:25So I know they're capable of it.
03:26And it came from the fact of, I demand more from the Browns in how they treat people than treating
03:35Todd Munkin, who does not give off Freddie Kitchens vibes in any way like that after one year.
03:42And I know that there are complicating factors.
03:44And I think the Andrew Barry thing is the most likely part of this, if Andrew secretly is GMing for
03:49his job.
03:50But even then, like, getting into the, okay, I'm going to hire a new GM.
03:54Well, then you should hire a GM that rolls up or at least is hired or handpicked by Todd Munkin.
04:01Because one year is not an adequate evaluation of a coach unless, and I'll say it again, they're Freddie Kitchens,
04:09which Todd Munkin deserves more respect from that based off everything we've ever heard about the guy.
04:14Yeah.
04:14And so, all right, let's get to Daryl's side of things.
04:16Because Daryl didn't say one year.
04:17Daryl said three years, right?
04:18And so, the idea that you would be, within three years, you're going to find out more likely than not
04:23what type of coach Todd Munkin has.
04:25I think Daryl's using his, maybe his past relationships with Todd Munkin to maybe kind of get into this, which
04:30is, I think, something different than a lot of people can offer up.
04:32He's seen Todd Munkin in a day-in, day-out basis.
04:35He's seen what he can do as an OC, different as a head coach, but he knows his personality.
04:39He knows whether or not he thinks he's going to fit.
04:40And that's why I think this carries a little bit more weight than if just, like, I don't know, you
04:44or I were saying it's someone that didn't spend a lot of time around Todd Munkin.
04:48Fair.
04:49Just because he can see his personality.
04:50He can see what type of coach he thinks he'll be.
04:53He can kind of offset that and put that out a little bit more.
04:55Like, I think that's, I think he gives a unique look into Todd Munkin.
04:58Anyone that was around the team, covering them on a daily basis in 2019 can do that.
05:02Fair, but I don't think Todd Munkin is a transitional coach.
05:06And I don't think any organization that goes in thinking like that ever succeeds or lands the plane.
05:13Any time that somebody's been seen as even a short-term coach, like, ah, he'll be here for five years
05:17and then walk off in the sunset, which is like what Pete Carroll was supposed to be in Vegas.
05:22It goes poorly because, one, players sniff it out.
05:26And, two, so does the rest of the organization.
05:28And I don't think, and listen, I know the idea of Todd Munkin wasn't getting a head coaching job anywhere
05:33else.
05:34And we can take that to the finest and most extreme limit.
05:37I think if Todd Munkin thought he was a transitional coach, which is what you're saying if you think before
05:42the guy coaches a game, he's going to be gone after three years,
05:46I think he would have sussed that out, and I think he rather would not have been a head coach.
05:50Well, it just kind of falls into the bucket of, I don't know, he still might have wanted to be
05:53a head coach.
05:53Even if you told him that you get two or three years and that's it.
05:56Being an NFL head coach, that's in your obituary.
05:59That's a lifetime achievement thing.
06:01Yeah, but I don't think he wants to just be a head coach.
06:04I think he wants to be a good head coach.
06:05I imagine, yes, he'd prefer to be a good head coach than just an in-hand coach, but he wasn't
06:09getting the offers.
06:09Like, Freddie wanted to just be a head coach.
06:11That was a guy, you're 100% right to say that guy wanted his lifetime achievement.
06:15A lifetime achievement award.
06:16Yeah, because Freddie Kitchens is going to die and it'll say Cleveland Browns head coach.
06:19I don't think that's Todd Munkin.
06:20Todd Munkin seems wired differently than, even if it feels like an understatement.
06:25But I also think he's of the belief, and this is what I like about Todd,
06:29I think he's of the belief that if he got that job, even if it's an honorary type role,
06:34that he was going to be able to turn it around and show why he can have that job forever.
06:37Or have that job for five years or ten years or whatever that is.
06:40Like, that's the type of belief he has in himself, which is just, he's wired a little bit different.
06:44I like that about him.
06:45I don't think Todd Munkin's job is just to put this back together.
06:48I don't think it is to be the J.B. Bickerstaff, right?
06:52The guy that gets you on your feet and then somebody else takes over.
06:56Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr.
06:57I think he's from that Harbaugh lineage.
06:59And I don't think it's a coincidence that John Harbaugh was willing to go down with a ship in Baltimore
07:06over Todd Munkin.
07:08I think those guys seek out people who are wired like them.
07:11It's the thing that excites me most about Munkin.
07:14I don't have to worry about if that dude's fake or not.
07:16I have to worry if that guy's geared and put in the right way or what his motivations are
07:22or if he's going to say, yes, yes, sir, Mr. Berry, to literally everything or the same thing to Jimmy
07:27Haslam.
07:28I think his job is to bring a legitimacy to the Browns from the football perspective and not just that.
07:36I think his job is to bring the legitimacy back to the relationship between the Browns and the fans.
07:42I don't think it's a coincidence that Todd is a, I don't want to say, blue-collar guy
07:49because that's a little too close to on the nose.
07:52He's got a lot of horses to be a blue-collar guy.
07:54But I think he's a guy that speaks like Clevelanders do.
07:58I think he can speak to Clevelanders.
07:59If they're 5-12 this year, people aren't going to be happy.
08:03But when you have a head coach that says things that rhyme with the truth
08:07as opposed to rhyme with nothing.
08:09I know, but after three years, that's nice.
08:12But after three years, you can usually tell whether or not this guy is going to make it beyond that.
08:16And at three years, I think three is an interesting number for Daryl to bring in the equation
08:19because you would have had this year, which, call it whatever you want,
08:22but then you've got two years after that to either continue on with Shador Sanders as your guy
08:26and show what you can do that way, or with the 2027 quarterback,
08:29and you would have had two years then to go ahead and showcase why that was a solid choice.
08:34It's a good number because a lot of coaches, you know after three years what you got and don't got.
08:39I understand that I look at the Browns different than a fair amount of people nationally do.
08:44I don't think the Browns are that far off.
08:48I think this offseason is if you can get a quarterback that interests you to come in here
08:53and compete with Shador, you'll do it at this point.
08:55But beyond that, it's, hey, let's fix the offensive line and start rebuilding that,
09:01and let's get a wide receiver or two to boost the situation around the quarterback.
09:08And beyond that, I know long-term, you've got to start thinking about life after miles
09:13and Denzel and some of your older guys, but I just don't think the Browns are going to be that
09:19bad
09:19for the next three years. I don't think they're going to be that bad for 2026 unless,
09:23I mean, I'm trying to think of what would have to happen at quarterback.
09:26I think it would have to be the same thing that happened last year,
09:31but with an improved context. So I don't understand how that's possible
09:35because I would naturally just expect Shador to be better than he was last year,
09:39and I thought he was the best of the three quarterbacks.
09:41Yeah, and you're going to have an easier schedule as well,
09:43but there still are some holes to fill. You've got to get a backup tight end.
09:46You've got to get a backup running back. We've got to have, we talked about the wide receivers.
09:49Like, there's still work to do, and it just doesn't feel like there's much urgency
09:52to have them do it. And so maybe they think a lot of this can be done in the draft,
09:55but if you're doing that through the draft, then again, you're going to have rookie expectations
09:58on these guys as well.
09:59I mean, I think if you were, hey, let's just get through this year,
10:04and we, you know, and I know Jason Lloyd's been on top of this,
10:06on this station and on The Athletic before, like, hey, they're just,
10:11they hope they're competitive. Their goal is to be competitive by the time
10:14they move into Brook Park.
10:15Yeah.
10:16It is a massive failure if by the time you get to Brook Park.
10:20No, it's a massive failure if in two years you're not a much better
10:24and more competitive team.
10:25Oh, for sure. That's a lifetime from now.
10:26And in football terms, that's a lifetime from now.
10:28And so I just, I, and you're also not, it doesn't seem like they're setting up
10:32for that either. That would be, that would be way too long to just continue
10:36on the suck road.
10:36And it doesn't seem like Todd Munkin is signing up for that.
10:39So I just, I just, I really, and I told Daryl today when we talked,
10:43I was like, I'm going to kind of go at you about the Todd Munkin thing.
10:47I understand if you want to use the Browns as history as part of this.
10:51I understand everything that Daryl went at.
10:52That's kind of what that reached up to me, if we're being honest about it.
10:55It kind of fell in that same bucket of, you know,
10:57anytime we acquire a quarterback or try to do something, a quarterback,
11:00it's instantly a no. And for 25 years,
11:02the people that have just instantly said no have been right.
11:05So they just keep going back to the no thing and like, all right,
11:08maybe one day it'll bite me in the butt. But like, until then, uh, yeah,
11:11you can do the same thing with coaches. And so like, I, I feel like that,
11:14that's kind of what it felt like to me. They just did the quarterback thing,
11:17the coaching thing where it's just an instant. No.
11:19And I want to give Munkin more of a chance than that.
11:202-1-6-4-7-4-00-9-2. Are you expecting Todd Munkin to succeed?
11:25And that feels like a loaded question.
11:27Cause I don't know who else would say no other than just people who are down
11:32about the Browns. And I just,
11:35this is not really how I look at things. Like I think Andrew Barry is capable of
11:39making good decisions. He hasn't made enough of them,
11:42but the longer you stay on the job,
11:44there should be some knowledge gained and some improvements made.
11:48Um, I also look at this roster and I, I think this roster,
11:52I think it's much better. Like what was the,
11:54it was Fox sports and Pete Prisco.
11:56Yeah. Pete Prisco, CBS sports ranked the Browns 31 out of 32.
12:00Even if right now you told me Nick Shador is going to start and he's going to
12:03start all of next year.
12:05And you're going to do a wide receiver at six left tackle at 24 and then build
12:09out the rest of the roster with your remaining picks.
12:11I'm not picking them to hit the under at six and a half wins.
12:14I'm not, they might only hit the slight over at seven wins or eight wins.
12:22But I just like the idea that people think this is the second worst roster in
12:26the NFL. I, I, I don't think Todd Munkin's coming here to lose this year.
12:31And I think there are a, you,
12:33you, you have a lot of veterans on this roster mixed with a lot of young guys on
12:38the, the, the up and up like Swessinger, like Fannin. I just, I think,
12:43I think the national media is out there ass on this Browns team.
12:48Even if I still think they might only be a seven or eight win.
12:51I was going to say, it comes to that. Like, I, I want to fight back on that and
12:54be like, really like, uh, you know, really kind of, you know, go toe to toe,
12:57but we're arguing over whether or not they're a seven win team or basically a
13:00five and a half or six win team. You know, like, like the, like the,
13:04the divide here isn't like it's that large between the two outcomes.
13:07Like what has that for you? Cause I've,
13:09I've kind of said what I think has to happen for them to get a top three,
13:12top five pick next year. And it is this quarterback room is as
13:16disastrous as it was last year.
13:18Yeah. And that's, that's the main, that's the main focus on this.
13:21But the picture around them has to look the same,
13:23meaning you don't have a consistent, healthy offensive line and none of your
13:27wide receivers do anything this year,
13:29even after spending the number six pick on one hypothetically,
13:32I think you'd have to have like a door injury, something like that.
13:35And then, uh,
13:36their backup quarterback being something like Deshaun and then maybe even he gets
13:40injured and you're just, you just, it's like this cycle of suck that just
13:42continues. And you just end up in the spotlight they did last year where
13:45you're going from quarterback to quarterback to quarterback.
13:47And you're just not finding any answers.
13:49I think it's all about the quarterback at the end of the day.
13:52And so it is,
13:53but there are teams that have gone out there with questionable quarterback
13:55rooms, like Sam Darnold versus JJ McCarthy.
14:00And they won 13 games.
14:01Yeah.
14:02They had a really good team all the way around.
14:04Exactly.
14:05But, and again,
14:05we don't have one all the way around.
14:06I'm not saying there'd be a 13 win team,
14:08but it's not hard to be a seven,
14:10eight,
14:11nine win team in the NFL.
14:12No.
14:13And especially not with what this defense is supposed to be.
14:15Now,
14:15maybe the defense takes a step back and this is part of the equation as well.
14:18I think,
14:18I think a lot of people are playing with the assumption that the defense is
14:20just what it was last year.
14:22Defense variance is massive in the NFL.
14:24Like it's really easy to find offenses that go from one year to the next and
14:28it continues on.
14:29It's not as easy with defenses that way.
14:31Defenses change.
14:32They change all the time.
14:33And with a new defensive coordinator,
14:35I got to live with the assumption.
14:36They're not going to be as good as what they were last year.
14:38So I think when it comes to people saying this is one of the two worst teams,
14:44I think they're asleep at the wheel.
14:45I don't think they're paying attention to the Browns at all.
14:47And again,
14:48I'm not saying there's a Superbowl winning team.
14:51Never said that.
14:53Not a 500 ish team.
14:55I think is your ceiling as of right now.
14:57And that's if they do the things like draft the right wide receiver at six.
15:01And if they go ahead and figure out the offensive line,
15:03those are fairly enough big ifs.
15:06I get if that's the result too rich for your blood.
15:08I think,
15:09I think there's people in the national media.
15:11The second,
15:11the Browns fired Kevin Stefanski just decided the Browns weren't interesting
15:16anymore,
15:17or they,
15:17they think the Browns are stupid for firing Stefanski or that he was the fall
15:21guy.
15:22And I,
15:22I think,
15:23I think,
15:23I think everybody nationally checked out the second Stefanski got fired
15:27because I don't hear a lot of actual,
15:29like even,
15:29and I love Jordan Rodrigue.
15:31I have to say that because she is not only a genuinely awesome human being,
15:34she knows football,
15:36but her analysis of,
15:38I don't give the Browns any credit for the,
15:40the offensive lineman they brought in because they created that mess.
15:43You just described 20 out of 32 NFL GMs.
15:46Every GM is constantly trying to fix something.
15:50They didn't get green Bay.
15:51Green Bay is replacing 12 guys.
15:54So yeah,
15:54here's the problem is that every,
15:56every national convo is just going to distill itself down to the only thing
15:59they're going to know about the Browns.
16:00This is why I like bringing on people like Lindsay who does her research.
16:02And obviously you can,
16:03you can hear cares about the Browns and the convo she's going to have before
16:06she comes on it.
16:07But most of them are just going to,
16:08they're just going to dwindle it down to what do they think about the
16:10quarterback room?
16:11And that's as far as they're going to go,
16:12Nick.
16:12And you know,
16:13that they're going to get 30 seconds of hot takes off or whatever take
16:17they have.
16:17And that's all they're going to do.
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