00:00You were the first and only name I ever heard her say.
00:02Oh wow.
00:03And then to now to the point where you've done a Wuthering Heights album,
00:06like we were just hoping for one song.
00:15First time we met was at the studio when we watched Wuthering Heights for the first time.
00:20Yeah, and that was the first time you were seeing the film as well.
00:25Very first time I saw it, yeah.
00:27And you cried?
00:27I did, I cried.
00:29Did you cry?
00:29I didn't cry, but I have a heart of stone, so I have a heart of stone.
00:37Do you cry a lot in movies?
00:38Like when I'm watching?
00:39Yeah.
00:40You know, it's really hit or miss depending on where I am and what I'm going through.
00:46Sometimes I'm a really big crier and I'm in like a deep crying phase and sometimes like the saddest
00:53thing can be happening in front of me and I'll just be like, yeah.
00:56Do you cry a lot in real life?
00:57Yes.
00:58Oh really?
00:59Yeah, and the wreck.
01:01You're like Kathy, she cries at the top of her heart.
01:03Yeah, yeah.
01:04But no, I remember watching with you and it was us and Emerald and Finn who worked on the
01:13soundtrack with me and I think it must have been a really sort of immense experience for you to
01:23watch yourself in such a kind of like, it's sort of the love story, you know?
01:29Yeah, and it's funny because that was like the first of many iterations of the movie and of
01:35course you watched it so early too because you were working on all the songs and to see
01:39it kind of evolve and to see the versions that this movie also could have been and then to
01:44know the place where we ended up and I'm so happy where we ended up, I think it ended up
01:49in the place
01:50of like, this gives you maximum satisfaction as an audience member, like maximum feel.
01:55How do you feel when obviously you're kind of wearing like two hats in that scenario where obviously
02:03you're the actor but you're also the producer, do you find it hard to kind of like separate the
02:09two sort of styles of notes that you're giving or now that you've kind of been doing it for quite
02:15a
02:15while, is it very sort of like easy and effortless for you to sort of bounce between those two roles
02:20whilst watching yourself in a film? I have always found it easy to compartmentalize. Even at the
02:25beginning of producing, I could easily watch something and be like, right, okay, no, it's weird when
02:30she does that and blah, blah, blah. I don't even think of it as being like when I do that,
02:33I'm like when
02:33she does that, no, we don't need that and dah, dah, dah. Did you know from sort of the beginning
02:39that you
02:39always wanted to produce? I didn't know that I wanted to produce per se, I knew that I wanted to
02:47do more, have a handle on more of the filmmaking process, like just acting in a film wasn't an,
02:54it didn't feel like enough of, I wanted more of the experience. The way I articulated it to my
02:59producing partners, Josie and Tom back in the day. So when we met in 2013 and I said,
03:04what do you guys want to do? And they said, oh, we want to produce. And I was like, yeah,
03:07I want to make my own stuff too. So let's do that together. So that's how I thought of it.
03:10As I said,
03:11I want to make my own stuff as opposed to, I want to be a producer. And then we started
03:15a production
03:15company and you know, that was 11, 12 years ago. So yeah, that's, that's, and then of course it became
03:23producing, but in my head, it was just like, I want to make movies was always the thing I wanted
03:27to do.
03:28Did you find like part of the drive of you wanting to, to make your own stuff was because
03:37you were craving roles that weren't in existence for you? Or was it more just like you had stories
03:44to tell and you wanted to tell them in your way? It was never like, I know what I, there
03:51are roles
03:51I want to play. So if I don't make them, they'll never happen. It was more like, it's so crazy
03:56to me
03:56that every time I read a script, the dudes are the most interesting characters. And I was like,
04:01this is just crazy. Like, can't we just have a few more stories where like the actresses reading it
04:08are going to be like, yes, I got the best role. So many times I was like, he's got the
04:10best role.
04:11He's got the best role. He's got the best role. And, uh, it'd be nice, you know, to, I'll do
04:14that
04:14role, I guess, because it'd be cool to be in this movie. A lot of the drive and the reason
04:19like Lucky
04:19Chap is so like female focused is because some of those earliest conversations were,
04:23why can't we have more scripts where the, the women have the best roles? I love the process so
04:28much of making a movie and I, and I am quite, you know, business minded too. I like going through
04:33schedules and budgets and doing the financing stuff. It's like, I kind of like it. So yeah.
04:40And there's a lot of that with producing. Yeah. I, I mean, I've sort of just begun that journey
04:45myself. And for me, did you produce the moment? Yeah. Cool. Yeah.
04:48Was that the first film that you've produced? Yes. Yes. Yes. I found it to be such a hard and
04:56fast
04:56learning curve. We were really on this like expedited timeline, um, which brought this energy
05:04to the film, which you can really feel there is this kind of like super sort of like spontaneous
05:12feelings to the cinematography and to the score and even the performances. Cause we weren't ever really
05:18shooting traditional coverage. It was always sort of like using the camera almost as a character
05:23in a way where like sometimes if the camera got bored, it would just sort of like drift off,
05:28which was really, it's kind of like an interesting, like, and quite dynamic way to work with something
05:34that can sometimes feel quite like start and stop when you're, you know, trying to get like the specific
05:39coverage and shots and things like that. So it was like a, I would say a very specific project to
05:46produce in a way. How different was it to putting together like an album or even a music video?
05:53Because I feel like that's each of those things feel like their projects in themselves. And then you
05:56like, you kind of produce it, I guess, when you're like, okay, I need to pull together a team of
06:02people
06:02to help execute this vision. And I have a, I imagine you're like, I have a vision for this song.
06:06If it's a
06:06video clip, let's say like, or an album, like I have a vision for what I need. And now I
06:10need to bring in
06:11these kind of people. Yeah, it's funny. It's like with me with my records, I'm quite insular.
06:18Like with Brat, for example, it was like me kind of stewing since like the end of 2022 about like
06:24the themes of the album, like certain like marketing beats that I wanted to do without
06:30even having made any music. And that was very kind of like alone. And then eventually down the line,
06:35I would be like, I know I want to put the album cover on a big sort of like outdoor
06:41space, whether
06:42that's like on a truck, on a wall, on a building, like, and then we kind of like workshop how
06:48we
06:48could like make it happen. And it kind of, you bring more, more people in and it becomes this
06:53really kind of enriching, like creative conversation, which I really like. With music videos, I mean,
07:00God, babe, they're so last minute. I can't even tell you. It is like a true nightmare.
07:05I got that impression. Even with your Wuthering Heights album, like we were getting sent through
07:09like concepts and like, and they're shooting this like on Thursday. And I'm like, oh my gosh,
07:14that's crazy. Yes. It's very much like with a couple of videos I've done recently, I made this
07:19video with Billie Eilish called Guess. And I think we like decided we were going to do it on Monday.
07:23And by Thursday we were shooting it and it's a scramble. It's very, it's like old school filmmaking.
07:29It is. It's a scramble and you're like trying to find the money, like trying to find the extras,
07:33trying to find, it's like, and then sometimes it just, the magic comes together and it happens.
07:40And I think what's very interesting is because I come from that world, now it's sort of beginning
07:45to start, you know, working in film. I'm a bit like, well, let's go. And they're like, yeah,
07:51but we don't like have to do it like that. And I'm like, but why not? Let's go. Let's go.
07:56Let's start shooting. They're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's break. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
08:00It's been very interesting to sort of learn like the pacing differences between the two,
08:06the two things. I mean, when, when did you and Emerald first know that you were going to do this
08:12together? Do Wuthering? Yeah. I think she's wanted to make Wuthering Heights since she was
08:16a teenager, but I knew that she wanted to do Wuthering Heights. She told us when we were doing Salt
08:21Burn, she said, I know what the next thing is that we're going to do. We're going to do Wuthering
08:24Heights.
08:25And I was like, great. Because we've worked as producer, you know, producer, director,
08:29producer, producer for so long, you know, on Promising a Woman and then Salt Burn. And then
08:33we started out, you know, I was just the producer on this as well. And then to make the first
08:37move to
08:38be like, by the way, you know, I wouldn't mind playing Cathy. It was kind of like doing like the
08:43yawn and the arm over someone. And it's like, it's honestly leaning in to kiss your friend and hoping that
08:48they feel that way about you too. And then be like, I don't want to ruin our friendship. Did I
08:51make it
08:51weird by like, you know, like trying to take this thing? We already have a dynamic and now I'm adding
08:57a layer to it and has, have I ruined it now? I don't want her to feel like she has
09:00to say yes
09:01to this in any way. And she was like, I feel the same. Yeah. But no, it wasn't until we
09:06were like
09:07in the casting process really that I was, that I threw my hat in the ring before that I was
09:10just
09:10thinking of it as a producer. Yeah. And how was it kind of sort of transitioning your relationship
09:16with Emerald from, you know, mainly sort of working on projects as a producer to acting?
09:22Honestly, I think we both compartmentalize really easily. I think we're both kind of like,
09:26okay, we're, we're talking as producers now. And then we swap and I'm like, I'm your actor,
09:29you're my director. I don't know. We can like switch gears pretty quickly. And I have to say,
09:34you were in some of our very first conversations. I'm not even joking. I'm not even saying this,
09:38because we're doing a thing. Like she was like, okay, so it's going to be like Wuthering Heights.
09:42She's like, I want it to fit. When she started describing, she was like,
09:44I want it to feel like a fifties soundstage musical. And it's going to have like some
09:48amazing, hopefully like, you know, like I want like an original song from like Charlie XCX.
09:53And I was like, Oh, cool. Okay. And then I'm like, you know, I'm like, okay, so it's,
09:57so it's going to have like modern elements and it's going to, you know, I'm kind of calibrating
10:00what the vision is sort of thing, but you were the first and only name I ever heard her say.
10:04Oh, wow. And then you, to now to the point where you've done a Wuthering Heights album,
10:08like we were just hoping for one song, the fact that you a said yes to that, but then you
10:13were like,
10:14once and more, I'm like, yes.
10:16Well, to be honest, I just, I felt so inspired by the screenplay. It was such a visceral first read.
10:23She, she texted me out of the blue and I mean, we, we like know each other a little bit,
10:27but prior to
10:28that text, like, you know, in a very kind of like, Hey, like, Hey, like, you know, she'd used my
10:33song
10:33in Promising Young Woman. We'd met, we have some mutual friends, but I wasn't expecting a text
10:39from Emerald in December of 2024. First of all, she like prank called me by, she kind of like
10:45ass called me, she like butt dialed me. And I was like, hello. I was like, what? It was like,
10:51so out of the blue. And then she sort of panicked and like hung up and then text me being
10:55like,
10:56sorry. I was like, Oh, she must've just like been trying to call someone else. Okay. And then she
11:01sort of, you know, came through and was like, I am, I'm, you know, doing my interpretation of
11:07Wuthering Heights. I'd love for you to read the screenplay and maybe do a song. And I, I literally
11:12think I read it like that day and the day after, and it was in London at the time and
11:16it was freezing
11:17cold, like getting dark at 3 PM kind of a thing. And I just felt big. I was like already
11:22beginning
11:23to like slip into the world that she had created on the page. I just felt so immediately inspired to,
11:33I don't know, like write songs, like straight away. How quickly did you write?
11:38Well, I mean, it was so, it's funny because she did ask at the beginning, she was like,
11:43would you do a song? And I remember I immediately called Finn and I was like, okay, Emerald wants me
11:50to do this. She wants a song, but we're going to get her to let us do an album. We're
11:54just going to
11:55make it happen. And he was like, okay. And I was like, it's happening. I want it. I really want
11:59to
11:59do the whole record. Like I just felt so inspired and just immediately started sending her stuff
12:04actually before you were shooting. Cause when did you start shooting like, like late January?
12:09Yeah. Late January of 25. Yeah. And she was sending me sort of like the kind of drawings of,
12:17you know, the set and like some mock images of the house and things like that. I just felt so
12:24inspired.
12:24So I just wanted to jump at it. Was Chains of Love the first one that you got down?
12:31No, the first one that we got down was no, it's this song called open up, which doesn't really have
12:40many lyrics. And this is in the film where you're sort of like on the moors. It's very windy.
12:46Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's been used in some of the things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I don't know how
12:51people make songs and it amazes me. And every time I'm like, Oh God, people are so talented.
12:55You're so talented. Is it like you and Finn in a room being like, you've got a guitar. He's on
13:01the
13:01piano and you're like, what about this? What about this? And then you're like, all right,
13:05let's put a track down. Like in my head, that's how it goes. But like, how do you do it?
13:09In a way it's, it's so different to acting, but there is a through thread in that it's in ways
13:16like
13:17just this instinct that you have, right. Or this response that you have to what's on the page or to
13:25to how you feel. I find it's like a lot of channeling feeling. It's like the beginnings of
13:32the creation process for me. And with these songs in particular, it was like, I feel this atmosphere.
13:38I, I, I want to capture this feeling in a song. I have Emerald's words. So let's begin.
13:47Yeah. I mean, how did you feel prepping for this role? I mean, you've done this quite incredible thing
13:55where you've made her sort of like lovable and also very spontaneous and stubborn and
14:08sort of like immovable in her view, which obviously is, is the way that she is in, in the book.
14:16It's like,
14:16I want to be her. I know she's such a diva in a way. She's a nightmare. I mean, she's
14:23a total nightmare.
14:25But like, you're kind of like, I love you. Yeah. How did you get there? How did you, I like
14:30find,
14:31I'm quite endeared to people who are exasperating in that way, who like push you to your limits.
14:36And then, but you're still kind of like, but there's something about you that I'll, I will put up with
14:41it
14:41because I don't know why you're worth the effort than the emotional, um, toll that you take on me,
14:48but sounds very toxic. Yeah. But like she is, I mean, Kathy's a total nightmare and a total madam.
14:55It's like some of the first things Emerald said about her and she didn't want to shy away from
14:59that. She can be very, very selfish and immature and cruel. And I knew Emerald was going to go for
15:06it,
15:07not soften those edges, which is why I love her films and why I love her. I think most people's
15:12instincts, especially when it comes to female roles, they're like, well, that's, you know,
15:18because we'll probably lose the audience at that point. And I really appreciate a filmmaker who's
15:23brave enough to be like, no, no, no, we're going to go to the absolute furthest point. And if we
15:27need
15:28to win the audience back over, then we're going to have to work extremely hard to win them back over.
15:31So we're just going to have to be even better, which is so much more ambitious, I think,
15:36than being like, well, let's soft play it. So she's not that unlikable. And then, you know,
15:39she'll still be likable at the end. And it's like, well, what's the point of that? I can't take
15:44credit. I could give any version of Kathy that I knew Emerald would, you know, I try to give every
15:49version that, you know, paint with all the kind of colors and hit, hit both ends of the spectrum
15:54and everything in between when I give takes and know that Emerald, you know, is going to have
15:59everything she needs in the edit. But knowing Emerald, I knew she'd want to be like hitting the extremes
16:04with the character. Yeah, yeah. And that's so fun. So much more fun.
16:09Yeah. And I've sort of seen you and Jacob talking about your kind of chemistry on the set
16:17and how like, it almost feels like, it felt like you were like, actually truly like inhabiting the
16:23roles like, like on and off. Like, you know, it's like, it felt like you were like, from what I've
16:29seen
16:29you say about the sort of shooting of this film so far, that you were really like, you just like
16:35fell into the whole atmosphere of that. It was like, yeah, no, we definitely, it was,
16:41it's like that thing. And I don't know if there's like a feeling like this when you're performing as
16:46a musician, or if you felt this when you've been acting as well. But like, a few times in my
16:53career,
16:53I've truly forgotten that I, where I was and what I was doing and who I was. And you just
16:58kind of
16:58transcend space and time for a second. And you are that character and you are in that place.
17:03And there is no crew around you, like everything else falls away. And that's when they had like,
17:08truly felt that that's happened a few times in my entire career. I remember one time I felt it with
17:12Saoirse Ronan, when we did Mary Queen of Scots, and it was so powerful and was so locked in. And
17:18we were
17:19like on the same wavelength coming at it with so much buildup that I truly forgot I was in a
17:24movie
17:25and I, and it was just her and I. That feeling has, is, will like sustain me the rest of
17:30my career.
17:30I will, I will always keep searching to have that feeling again. And I, and we had it, Jacob and
17:35I
17:35had it. There was a moment where it actually felt like he was Heathcliff and I was Kathy and we
17:39were on
17:40the moors. And it was like, like we transcended the moment. It wasn't us and there wasn't a crew.
17:45And it was like, we became them for a second. And it was so crazy. And I didn't say it
17:50out loud.
17:50And I heard him say it. And he was like, there was this moment. I was like, I felt the
17:53same thing.
17:54That's so crazy. And it's like, those moments are like, that's movie magic. That's like the thing
18:00that we keep chasing. Do you ever feel that kind of moment where you're like, so in it? Or what's
18:04the equivalent of being like, so in it? Yeah. No, I mean, I've definitely felt that. I mean, in this
18:09film that I, you know, just made, I play like a heightened version of myself and essentially
18:15the film is kind of about if I had made like completely different choices over the past
18:19two years and, and sort of been like buckled under the pressure and kind of like completely
18:25lost myself in this insane, like transition phase in my life because it was me kind of acting
18:35out these things that were so like close to reality, but I just took a right turn at the
18:43end and avoided it. It was cathartic, but also a little scary because I was like, oh damn,
18:50like I do see myself really here. Like I, you know what I mean? It's like, I, I have seen
18:56myself
18:57like crying and screaming in the back of the car and like having a total breakdown. That is so real
19:03to me and specifically in that moment, because I really could have been there truly in my life
19:08in that exact moment. It's so funny with making this album when obviously like making it in,
19:17at points in isolation, because I mean, the thing that was amazing for, for me about Emerald was how
19:24unbelievably trusting she was. And I mean, you too, as a producer, like you guys really just let me
19:30do my thing, you know? And, and I really, it's like, that is really not the way I find with
19:37making music for films. And I think it takes a lot of confidence and security in the project
19:44and what you want to say to actually be able to like let people go and like do what they
19:50do.
19:50So I really appreciate the way you guys wanted to work with me like that. And I think having made
19:57a lot of the music kind of in isolation on my own and then beginning to sort of see things
20:02that you
20:03had been shooting and then seeing the film and applying it to the film. What was so interesting
20:09was whilst I have always loved the songs, seeing the opening of the film for the first time with
20:16house and you know, the hanging and the, the moors, it's, I was like, I had shivers.
20:25Yeah. No, me too.
20:26I had full shivers and I was, I'll never forget Emerald playing, playing house.
20:30Because obviously we use temp music until we can get your music in there.
20:34It coursed through my body. Like I felt like, and this, it was just like, and then John Cale's
20:41voice and then like your voice. And then like also Heathcliff's dad, like, yeah. And you're just
20:46like, there was like this, it was like a thrumming, it like almost thrown through my body. And I was
20:51like, whoa. And we'd always wanted that opening to really like, like shock you into this time and
20:57place. And then, but that I could never have predicted that that would be the song that you
21:02would give us for that moment. Like I never would have predicted it. That's why you shouldn't try to
21:07restrict artists and be like, we trust you. Give us what you think. Because otherwise,
21:11if we'd been too prescriptive, it would have just been like, you know, probably like a cool,
21:17but maybe forgettable moment. And instead it like, yeah, it elevated the moment so much. It's so,
21:22it's so unexpected and so perfect for it. Without giving too much away, I suppose,
21:30what was your favorite part of this film to shoot? And what is your favorite or one of your favorite
21:37scenes when you watch it? I loved shooting all the montage pieces was so fun to shoot. And there,
21:44I mean, that's when your songs where you get to really, really appreciate like, because we couldn't
21:48fully use the lyrics when you're playing that over the montage stuff as well. In like Linton's house.
21:52Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That stuff, because that was just a total scramble. That was like
21:56you making music videos. It was always like, we had 20 minutes left at the end of the day. And
21:59we'd
22:00always be like, it was like a free for all. And we'd be like, grab something, put that like,
22:05put like putting on those red glasses or whatever. It'd be like, and then it was like, you know,
22:09Aussie, our steadicam operators, like just like trying to capture anything. And then same with like the,
22:14the kind of like romantics montage sequence of Jacob and I, that was also like always spare at the
22:20minute, like particularly out in the moors, it would be like, if we're waiting for light,
22:24we'd be like, I'd be like, Oh, it looks pretty over there. Emerald would be like,
22:27the lights good over there. Oh, go, go. And we'd just sprint. And like,
22:30I remember one time Jacob was standing so far away and, and we were like, Oh,
22:35we've lost the light. We've lost the light. And Linus has got his thing out. And he's like,
22:38no, we can. Yeah. I mean, we've pretty much lost it. And we're like, should we just try and get
22:41it?
22:41Let's try and get it. And like, Emerald's just get it, go. And I like screamed at Jacob. I'm like,
22:46I'm just going to run at you. Okay. And he was like, what? And I was like, I'm just,
22:50just, I'm going to run at you. And I'm going to kiss you. Okay. And he's like,
22:54I can't eat. And I was like, forget it. And they were like, action. And I was like,
22:57ran at him. And I don't think he knew what was happening because he couldn't hear me.
23:00And I like ran and like jumped and you have to jump because he's so tall, jumped into his arms
23:04and we
23:05kissed. And then like Ozzy just like wrapped around and the crew were like dropping down to the ground
23:10because no one wanted to be in the back of this 360 shot that no one had planned. And it
23:14was just like
23:14this. And anyways, hopefully you'll see the movie if you're watching this conversation right now.
23:19That was just one of those spare of the moment. Everyone like just, you know,
23:24you can spend spontaneous, just hundreds of people spend months and months and months carefully
23:28and intentionally planning things. And then there'll be something like that,
23:32that no one planned for. And then you watch it in the movie and you're like,
23:36I don't know for me, I'm like, I will remember that shot till the day I die. Like, I love
23:39it.
23:39And then you're like, I'm going to wash it.
23:40I don't know what to do.
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