00:00The Ringer released their top 100 NBA players list.
00:05And for the first time in as long as I can remember, Donovan Mitchell is not in the top 10.
00:11He's 11th.
00:12And I did think it was interesting.
00:14So close yet so far.
00:15I thought it was interesting that him falling, in fairness, I think the last time I checked,
00:20it was like ninth or something like that.
00:21But him falling one or two spots made everybody go, oh.
00:25I do think it's interesting, though.
00:27I think he's finally starting to take more of a hit for the Cavs' postseason woes and lack of elite
00:38success.
00:38This list, though, at the heart of this list, is basically weighing a lot of what happened last year.
00:43And I weigh a lot with my impression of Donovan as well based off of what happened this last year.
00:48So I'm not alone in that.
00:49But do you know the two players that he's ahead of in this list?
00:53It's Tatum and Brown, right?
00:54Exactly right.
00:54I mean, he's had more guys than that.
00:56But, like, yeah, he's ahead of Tatum and Brown.
00:58So in what NBA world are we living in where Donovan Mitchell's a better player than Jason Tatum?
01:03Apparently this list.
01:04So if you're going to weigh too much into that he's not a top 10 player, it's also then the
01:08same people that probably weigh too much into him being ahead of Tatum.
01:11I just think this goes back to a lot of our discussions about the Cavs paying Donovan Mitchell and Donovan's
01:17power within the organization.
01:21I don't want to move on from Donovan.
01:24I understand that there might be some moves I would be willing to make.
01:28For instance, Donovan Mitchell for Jalen Brown in some way, even if it was Donovan not going to Boston, I
01:34would do that deal tomorrow and not think about it.
01:38But I just, I'm just so leery of giving a guy who isn't a, what I think, I don't think,
01:45I think Donovan has already topped out how good of an NBA player he can be.
01:49I think at some point he was maybe the seventh or eighth best player in the NBA, whether that's perceptional
01:55or reality.
01:55And I think that's as good as it's going to be.
01:59I agree with that, by the way.
02:00Tatum has the ceiling of one of the five best players in the NBA.
02:04I think Brown does as well.
02:05I think you start, Devin Booker, like you start to go through the guys that are behind him.
02:09And I see a lot of guys who could easily, like in reality, just be seen as a much better
02:15player and should be seen as a much better player.
02:18And I think that's where, you know, giving Donovan, LeBron power to me, and it feels like they are, by
02:24not questioning whether they should pay him or not, is just, it's interesting.
02:28I feel like that's going to be, it's going to be tough to win that battle long term.
02:34I think at some point you're going to come out on the value side of things having taken the loss.
02:39Well, but I think they're more worried about the next couple years than they are, let's say, five years from
02:42now.
02:43And I think that's kind of what they're leaning towards.
02:45It's like them giving a max contract isn't the craziest thing in the world.
02:48Mobley's got a max contract, you know, like they, they do that.
02:51And so that part, I won't hold it against them.
02:53I just, I find it interesting the years and the length that you're then committing to a guy that as
02:58we're seeing with each passing year, it's not, you're not, you're not on the rise if you're Donovan Mitchell.
03:02So I think normally I don't care about this, but it's a, it's apparent that they want to, it's apparent
03:08they value cost cutting this off season more than they do getting better.
03:13And it like one of the big rumors out there, ESPN had it on their website that they're considering shopping
03:19Dennis Schroeder.
03:20And I thought Dennis was one of your seven best players in the playoffs.
03:24I understand that teams habitually move on from Dennis.
03:27And so this will not be the first team to do it.
03:30It won't be the last team to do it.
03:31Right.
03:31But I don't know how you're going to go into next season and the only bonafide point guard you have
03:37on your roster is James Harden.
03:39I just don't.
03:40I know, I know there are people who like Craig Porter Jr.
03:43If Craig was that good, Craig would have been in the rotation by now because we're three, four years into
03:47his NBA career.
03:49Moving on from Schroeder, when you have a 37 year old, soon to be 37 year old point guard who
03:55may or may not be putting on the pounds again,
03:57it just feels like an incredible risk all in the name of saving some money.
04:00Is he putting on the pounds again?
04:02I thought we were starting to get Krispy Kreme.
04:05I like Krispy Kreme Harden.
04:06Where's his allegation coming from?
04:07Where's Fat Harden coming from?
04:09It was James Soften.
04:10What's since when?
04:11Where's his coming from?
04:12It's an angles thing.
04:13He's not shaving his beard.
04:14We saw that in the police report.
04:15Yeah, because people see his triple chin.
04:16We saw that in the police photo.
04:18He saw the apple pies coming.
04:19Yeah.
04:19He has to jump in.
04:20He was like, not since 94.
04:22Where's the allegations that he's putting on weight coming from?
04:24You've got to look at some of the angles here, the pictures.
04:26Because again, the beard hides the fatness.
04:29Right?
04:29He made a calculated decision 15 years ago to grow such a beard.
04:34Yeah.
04:35That could only be like a quarter inch of a beard there.
04:38We wouldn't know.
04:39He's got such thick hair.
04:41That could be three inches of double chin right there.
04:44We don't know.
04:45Or triple chin when it got really bad.
04:46So you've got to look at the angles and some of those angles.
04:49You can see.
04:50You can see the lilt of the stomach there.
04:54Many people are saying.
04:55I reject it.
04:56I reject the premise.
04:56Yeah, you're a hardened apologist.
04:58Yeah, I reject the premise.
04:58You've hardened for hardened.
05:00Is that right?
05:00No.
05:01No, but I...
05:04The Schroeder stuff, if they're cost cutting, is it just...
05:07Is that Gilbert just saying, we spent more money than any team in the NBA over the previous
05:11couple years and have nothing to show for it, essentially?
05:13And so now, as we are ducking to get under the apron, we just have to find ways to cost
05:18cut?
05:18I think it's Dan Gilbert saying, I don't believe this team can win a championship.
05:22Dan Gilbert has said, as long as we...
05:25As long as I think we have a chance to win a championship, I'm going to spend.
05:30Him deciding to not spend in the last six months...
05:33Well, we'll see what they replace Schroeder with if it does, in fact, go down.
05:35Because the idea on this was maneuverability, right?
05:39That's the whole tagline attached to this?
05:41Yeah, very rarely is Dan Gilbert's team going to come out and be like, we're doing this
05:44because we don't believe we can win a championship.
05:47You can't tell that to anybody.
05:49It just seems like an odd spot for him to all of a sudden retreat from spending more
05:51money than anybody in the NBA.
05:52I mean, this goes back to the Donovan thing about Donovan waiting a summer to cash in
05:58on his contract extension.
05:59But we think Donovan's only got maybe a couple years left of being Donovan.
06:01Now wouldn't be the time where you would then slash payroll in a significant way.
06:05Unless you think there's no moves you can make to win an NBA championship.
06:08And so you're going to have your cake and eat it, too.
06:10They're going to be a good 50 to 55 win regular season team.
06:14And then in the postseason, it's going to be what it's going to be.
06:17But hey, we still get hyped about the Cavs.
06:19Like, there's a decent chance that there is some acceptance here.
06:23I mean, but if you're retreating that hard, then I don't even know what we're doing here.
06:27I mean, I was just saying it.
06:29You're going to have your cake and eat it, too.
06:31You have people excited about a good Cavs team.
06:34And then the playoffs will be what the playoffs are going to be.
06:36And you'll say, we're going to get them next.
06:37We're going to figure this out.
06:38And all the while, Donovan gets paid his money.
06:41You still win 50 to 55 games a season.
06:44People still show up at the, I'm going to say the gun, because that's what it should be called.
06:50With great regularity, everybody's happy to some degree.
06:54No one's miserable.
06:55Or they're going to try to go ahead and just put different pieces around this, because they've convinced themselves.
07:00If you work in their mindset that Donovan is not actually the problem, and it's not the mindset you and
07:05I operate in, but if you work from the mindset of Donovan's not the problem, we like what this core
07:09is, then you would blame the other pieces.
07:11You'd look at the Knicks and you'd say why they won is because of all the other pieces.
07:15Our other pieces didn't do enough, and that's how we ended up failing.
07:18I just think we want to get below the second apron because of flexibility.
07:24But Shooter wasn't even one of the main parts of this whole thing.
07:26Keon Ellis is the reason why they initially made that trade.
07:28I just think that saying you want to get below the second threshold because of money is to me very
07:35similar to Donovan Mitchell saying, I'm going to wait until next year to sign my extension because there's more reasons.
07:40Well, you've got to get under it for trade reasons.
07:43You can look at that and say, okay, that's a valid reason.
07:47It doesn't mean it's the only reason.
07:49Well, you can't make some of the trades you want to make if you're still living in the second apron.
07:53It also doesn't mean they're going to make those trades.
07:55It also doesn't mean that they even really desire those trades.
08:00That might just be the reason they're getting under a different level of threshold.
08:04And hey, if something perfect pops up, we'll take it.
08:07But I don't think they've shown the sense of urgency to win a championship.
08:10I think it's simple.
08:11I think Schroeder just, I think he was brought on this team basically to goon it up.
08:14I think he makes a lot of money and he's easy to replace.
08:17He makes like $14 million.
08:18That's not a lot of money for a backup point guard.
08:20Comparatively.
08:21Comparatively.
08:22I mean, what you can get in replace of him.
08:24You can get somebody with the talent and ability that Schroeder is offering up at $2 to $3 million.
08:30And then all of a sudden, then you've got some more space to operate it.
08:33That's the vet min.
08:33Yeah.
08:34Yeah.
08:34What vet min player have they bought in?
08:36It's not like Schroeder was this amazing player.
08:39I'm confused as to why you think Schroeder was awesome.
08:41I think Schroeder was a very important part of what you did.
08:43I think Schroeder was an absolute embarrassment in the finals, in the conference finals.
08:47Yeah.
08:47What about this?
08:47He was basically a no-show.
08:49Yeah.
08:49I disagree about the first two rounds.
08:51I think he was a big part of that.
08:52And actually, I'll be honest with you.
08:54And I agree people who say you wouldn't have gotten to the Eastern Conference Finals without James Harden.
08:58You wouldn't have gotten out of the second round without Dennis Schroeder.
09:02Because Dennis Schroeder, if you go back, don't look at the box score.
09:05I don't agree with it.
09:06But okay, go ahead.
09:06If you go back and actually look at what happened, he was the only guy speeding up, getting across half
09:11court, and getting the Cavs in their offense.
09:13Every time the offense would falter, which happened repeatedly in the first two rounds of the playoffs, Dennis would get
09:19the ball, and he would make sure to get into the half court set.
09:24And yes, then they would take him out after a couple minutes on the court, but he was instrumental to
09:28their offense.
09:29They don't get out of the second round without Dennis Schroeder.
09:32We agree, by the way, on the Eastern Conference Finals.
09:34He went Thomas Bryant in the Eastern Conference Finals, but he was an integral part in the first two rounds.
09:40He had one double-digit scoring game.
09:42It was 11.
09:42I'm not looking at box score.
09:43I'm looking at what happened.
09:45I mean, the box score does tell a story, does it not?
09:47Like, we watch these games game, but it's not as if he was, like, majorly impactful to the point where
09:52I'm thinking to myself, what an awesome contribution.
09:54Yeah, him not scoring points is not what we're talking about.
09:57But, like, think back to when their offense would stagnate, they would put him in, Kenny would put him in,
10:02and he would speed up the offense.
10:04I didn't see it.
10:06There's nothing I saw out of Schroeder that tells me you had to keep him.
10:09The deal why you made that deal to begin with was because Keon Ellis.
10:11That's what you wanted out of this.
10:13Schroeder ended up—
10:13Oh, yeah, you traded for J.R. Smith because you wanted him on Shumpert, and then J.R. became a
10:18more important player.
10:18This was always probably the result for Schroeder anyway, as is.
10:21I think it's pie-in-the-sky thinking.
10:22I think it is Pollyanna to think, oh, they're just getting below that second apron so they can stay.
10:28I know you don't like game scorers.
10:29I get that.
10:30I understand it.
10:30So, like, using this is not going to help you at all.
10:32But in the final 10 games of the postseason, the second round and then the finals, he had one good
10:38game score.
10:39And not even good.
10:40It's actually considered bad.
10:41He had only had one above five.
10:44Five is criminally bad.
10:46And, like, he just wasn't good in these series.
10:47Yeah, I disagree.
10:49I think he played an integral part in what they did.
10:53And we can go back if you'd like to watch it.
10:55Maybe we can get an NBA coach to kind of decide who's right on this one.
10:59I'd love it.
10:59He had one shot in the final three games.
11:01Yeah, Eastern Conference Finals.
11:03I said he was bad.
11:04No, no, no.
11:05That was in the second round.
11:06Yeah, he also had good games.
11:07I don't know why we're – my point is, if you're not above the second apron, you're telling me you
11:13don't believe you can win a championship anymore.
11:14And that's fine, by the way.
11:17Honestly, that's better than trying to chase –
11:19You have to get below the second apron in order to make trades.
11:22That's in the CBA.
11:23That's part of the rules.
11:24And they've been above the second apron.
11:26That's why they have to get below it, because you can't live multiple years or else you have restrictions.
11:30And when they – you know what?
11:30Then we should just – let's let it play out.
11:32And then July 27th, when they haven't made a trade, I guess we'll see.
11:38Nothing materialized.
11:39I guess we're just going to stay below this first – the second apron.
11:43I don't know what to tell you.
11:44I'm just telling you the rules of the CBA.
11:45Yeah, I know, but they've been above the – I feel like we're talking in circles here.
11:49I don't feel like I'm at all.
11:51I'm just telling you – I'm telling you what the information is.
11:52Yeah, and they've been above the second apron forever and still been able to make trades.
11:55Yeah, but you can't do it in multiple years.
11:55No, you can't do it in successive years.
11:57That's why this – that's why it matters so much for this year.
11:59Part of the CBA is you can't be above it for successive years or you start getting penalized.
12:03Do you think they're going to make any moves that make them better this offseason?
12:05I think they'll make a move that probably changes it up different than Dennis Schroeder.
12:08Schroeder's not the difference.
12:09I guarantee you they don't.
12:10I guarantee you.
12:10Schroeder's not the difference in this team.
12:11They will – they will subtract Dennis Schroeder.
12:13Here's the difference in this team.
12:14You're majoring in the minor.
12:15That's not what I've said.
12:16I've said he's a good player and I thought he was one of the seven best players in the
12:20Cavs in the playoffs.
12:22Yeah, and I disagree.
12:23Yeah, I know, but my point is I didn't say he was a difference maker.
12:26I said he made a difference.
12:28That's not the same thing.
12:30Okay.
12:31I don't know why you're getting pissed about Dennis Schroeder.
12:33You're the one getting pissed about Dennis Schroeder.
12:35No, because –
12:36Well, you're arguing about box scores two weeks – two months after the NBA playoffs
12:41ended when, by the way, we all agreed where Dennis Schroeder was the first two weeks and
12:46now after the fact –
12:47No, I never once agreed on that.
12:48All right.
12:49I guess I just remember different shows.
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