- 20 hours ago
John and Bruce trace the cultural and spiritual shifts that changed church music from hymns and organs to emotionally driven worship built around guitars, performance, and mass appeal. Along the way, they examine John Wimber’s role in the Righteous Brothers, his conversion, his influence at Calvary Chapel Yorba Linda, and the larger musical trends that helped prepare audiences for the Jesus Movement and later charismatic expressions.
The discussion also explores how biblical themes appeared in mainstream rock before the Jesus Movement, how music can shape emotion and group psychology, and how those dynamics contributed to later religious developments tied to Vineyard, healing culture, and the New Apostolic Reformation. With personal reflections, historical examples, and movement analysis, John and Bruce consider whether modern worship became a vehicle for spiritual formation or a shortcut that opened the door to manipulation.
00:00 Introduction
03:55 Bruce Hayne Frames Music, Culture, And John Wimber
06:47 Condemnation, Cult Control, And The Fear Of Secular Music
11:22 Hymnology, Emotion, And The Shift Toward Vineyard Worship
12:46 John Wimber, The Righteous Brothers, And The 1960s Music Explosion
16:55 Organ Music, Guitars, Elvis, And Revival Manipulation
20:59 Wimber As Entertainer, Worship Leader, And Emotional Catalyst
23:25 The “Church At Home On The Couch” And The Collapse Of Emotional Movements
25:44 Bob Dylan, The Rolling Stones, And Bible Themes Before The Jesus Movement
27:37 Worship Wars From Hymns To Hip-Hop
30:26 John Wimber As A Mixed Bag
33:35 Sponsor Break
34:33 Nixon, Branham, Roy Davis, And Music As A Persuasive Tool
40:55 Church Music, Manipulation, And The Problem Of Emotional Shortcuts
44:21 Music As A Vehicle: Who Is Driving It?
47:27 Entertainment, Options, And The Search For A “Good” Church
51:24 Charismatic Music, Shortcuts, And Private Revelation
52:43 Music, Open Minds, And Spiritual Abuse
54:32 Emotion Over Substance And The Need For A Solid Church
57:06 Closing
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The discussion also explores how biblical themes appeared in mainstream rock before the Jesus Movement, how music can shape emotion and group psychology, and how those dynamics contributed to later religious developments tied to Vineyard, healing culture, and the New Apostolic Reformation. With personal reflections, historical examples, and movement analysis, John and Bruce consider whether modern worship became a vehicle for spiritual formation or a shortcut that opened the door to manipulation.
00:00 Introduction
03:55 Bruce Hayne Frames Music, Culture, And John Wimber
06:47 Condemnation, Cult Control, And The Fear Of Secular Music
11:22 Hymnology, Emotion, And The Shift Toward Vineyard Worship
12:46 John Wimber, The Righteous Brothers, And The 1960s Music Explosion
16:55 Organ Music, Guitars, Elvis, And Revival Manipulation
20:59 Wimber As Entertainer, Worship Leader, And Emotional Catalyst
23:25 The “Church At Home On The Couch” And The Collapse Of Emotional Movements
25:44 Bob Dylan, The Rolling Stones, And Bible Themes Before The Jesus Movement
27:37 Worship Wars From Hymns To Hip-Hop
30:26 John Wimber As A Mixed Bag
33:35 Sponsor Break
34:33 Nixon, Branham, Roy Davis, And Music As A Persuasive Tool
40:55 Church Music, Manipulation, And The Problem Of Emotional Shortcuts
44:21 Music As A Vehicle: Who Is Driving It?
47:27 Entertainment, Options, And The Search For A “Good” Church
51:24 Charismatic Music, Shortcuts, And Private Revelation
52:43 Music, Open Minds, And Spiritual Abuse
54:32 Emotion Over Substance And The Need For A Solid Church
57:06 Closing
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Bruce Haying, former
00:46member of Calvary Chapel and close friend of John Wimber.
00:50Bruce, it's good to have you back on and to talk about all things music.
00:54You and I have chatted a little bit offline, so you know some of this, but you don't know
00:59the extent.
01:00I was leaving the cult at 37 years old, having been told that the only kind of music that
01:08I could listen to was the 1950s-style quartet music.
01:12And even the modern music, the stuff we're going to talk about today, John Wimber's music,
01:16that was taboo in our particular sect of the Pentecostal faith.
01:22In fact, I knew I had friends that would listen to the modern music, and I would hear sermons
01:27preached against them for doing it, so it was quite an unusual journey.
01:31But at the same time, we had all the elements of a destructive cult.
01:37I did the—they call it chanting.
01:39I know in the cult, you perceive it as different, but when you're in the mall, when you're in
01:45a restaurant, and they're playing music that everybody else thinks is old-timey, old-fashioned,
01:53soothing music, to us, the old-fashioned music was rock and roll, and that rock and roll
01:58was evil.
01:59So in my head, I would chant and block it.
02:02And so whenever I left this group at age 37, it was the year 2012, I had never really
02:10heard rock and roll.
02:12I had successfully blocked it.
02:14I had been in places where they played it, but mentally, I never heard it.
02:18So I started on this journey, this musical journey, that I'm going to share some today.
02:25I don't think I've shared as much as I'm going to today in previous podcasts, but I
02:30started from scratch.
02:31I didn't know anything, and I literally—I found this one website that had this crazy
02:35collection, and I literally started at 1940, and I said, give me the top songs of 1940 of
02:43all genres, 1941, 1942, and I did this for the better part of a year.
02:49You'll never understand my surprise when I heard the birds, to everything, turn, turn,
02:56turn.
02:56When I heard that song, and it's right out of Ecclesiastes, I thought, what in the world
03:01were we blocking this good music for?
03:04This is good music.
03:05And what's really interesting, and as it relates to the conversation you and I are having, that
03:11song by the birds predates the Jesus movement by—
03:14Correct, yes.
03:15I think it was five years, something like that, right?
03:17Yeah.
03:18So music as an industry was shaping what would become the Jesus movement, and not many people
03:26realize that because of the names involved with the Jesus movement, but the music was
03:31shifting towards a more religious plane, and there's a lot of reasons for that, which
03:35I don't know if we'll get into that in the podcast, but needless to say, the invention
03:41of the style of music that was coming to be in the Jesus movement, it actually didn't
03:47come from the people who we think and we credit for having shifted the music.
03:52So let's talk through music culture.
03:54I'd love to.
03:55This is right up my alley, and I have spent, you know, for those of you that are perhaps
04:00hearing me on here the first time, I am a piano tuner who has done it for 50 years, and
04:08I
04:08can do it in my sleep.
04:09So what I've spent years doing is sitting on pianos, tuning pianos, thinking about music
04:16and culture and what's happened.
04:19And so this is completely up my alley, and especially when it comes in regards to Vineyard
04:26and John Wimber, a reminder for those that may not have heard any of the other podcasts,
04:31John was my dad's best friend.
04:32He's buried at the foot of my father.
04:35I love John and was frustrated by John all at the same time.
04:41And so in this podcast, you will probably, if you're someone that thinks John Wimber was
04:46wonderful, there will be parts of this podcast you probably won't like.
04:52And if you're someone that thinks John Wimber was evil and the devil, there's going to be
04:57parts of this podcast you don't like.
04:59I'll probably anger everyone here, John.
05:02But we can go back into the music, and to tell you the truth, I really think a great place
05:08to start is you can go back to the Reformation with Luther and how church music started.
05:17And Luther wrote some just tremendous hymns.
05:21And then, you know, by the time Luther dies, we have John Wesley and Charles Wesley.
05:27And of course, the hymnologist of the church was Charles.
05:32I think they say he wrote somewhere between 6,500 and 9,000 hymns, Charles Wesley.
05:39He is just a, the church is replete with Charles Wesley hymns.
05:45And they were tremendous.
05:47And to tell you the truth, they kept the church together.
05:50This hymnology kept the church together for years.
05:54So much of life depends on when you're born.
05:57And I'm old enough to be your dad.
06:01I'm 70, almost 72.
06:04So, so much of life depends on when you were born.
06:07And this period of time that I was born, I saw this evolution of music.
06:12And Wimber was involved in this transition.
06:17And so, we can head down this road and I can talk aloud about what happened as I saw the
06:24transition of music
06:26to go from the unity that was happening in the 50s and then in the early 60s.
06:33And then something happened in the 60s.
06:37And we can talk about that.
06:38And you already alluded to it a little bit with your talk about music.
06:43Well, to be fair, I'm going to anger everybody as well.
06:46Okay.
06:47There are, you've been disconnected from this movement for a while.
06:50But the movement shifted in a really weird way where it was more popular to condemn people
06:56than it was to help uplift and encourage people.
06:59And I say this openly because no matter what church I go to, even after leaving the cultish environment that
07:06I left,
07:07I find people who will be even out on the streets and just rebuke somebody for no apparent reason.
07:15Or what's more common is they'll see something that they, it doesn't sit right with what their personal convictions are.
07:24And they'll go just talk about whoever did whatever it was that they did until the, you know,
07:31it turns into a group of just condemning people for the sake of condemning them.
07:36I'll say it like that.
07:37And that's actually entered the denominational world, not just the non-denominational world.
07:43So when I left Branhamism and I tried to enter into some of the Protestant denominations and even some that
07:51aren't denominational,
07:52I had this real trouble everywhere I went because I could pick up on the destructive nature that had crept
08:00in.
08:01And I can truly say it crept in because of Branhamism and some of the things that we're talking about
08:06today.
08:06Not all, but some of them to the extent that we served an inferior God.
08:12And I'm, I'm saying that I know I'm going to anger people,
08:16but there are people who think that all music that is not Christian is inspired by Satan.
08:24And though you've probably seen it,
08:26they'll paint these pictures in your mind of like the band kiss.
08:31Let's say that's nights in Satan service.
08:33That's exactly what that is because they've,
08:35they've come up with a catchy acronym that makes people convinced that that's why they did it.
08:40I know the history of the band kiss and no,
08:42that's not at all why they did it.
08:44And the band had a name before this.
08:47And if you don't know that history,
08:50go,
08:50go watch a few documentaries.
08:52It's,
08:52it's kind of Alice Cooper would be Alice Cooper would be another one that everyone thought.
08:56And he actually happened to be a man devoted to God.
09:00Believe it or not.
09:01Absolutely.
09:02So we had this inferior God,
09:05that we believed could only act within the group that was righteous.
09:13In other words,
09:14if you were unrighteous,
09:15God couldn't persuade you to come to him.
09:17You had to come to him through the mediator.
09:20And we had elected who the mediators are.
09:22These are these apostles and prophets,
09:25et cetera.
09:27And through the music,
09:29music helped me realize how wrong that was because I started listening to music like no man's business.
09:36I can't tell you how much music I listened to in 2012.
09:39Oh,
09:40that's great.
09:40One of them,
09:41I could go straight down the line.
09:43I don't think this podcast could contain it if I just fully opened up.
09:47But what's a good song?
09:50All Along the Watchtower.
09:52Beautiful song.
09:54Dave Mason.
09:55He just passed away.
09:56Yes.
09:57If you've never heard this,
09:59think the book of Revelation.
10:02Think about all of the themes.
10:04Think of Isaiah.
10:05I think even some scholars or some historians have tried to tie that song to Isaiah 21,
10:11if I remember correctly.
10:12Right, right.
10:12But basically,
10:13it's talking about a watchtower and a watchman,
10:15all of the themes of the Bible,
10:17like the judgment and fall of Babylon,
10:20et cetera.
10:21You can walk straight through the song and you can see the imagery that is in the Bible.
10:26And granted,
10:27this is not written at all to a religious audience,
10:30not by any means,
10:32but it's the inspiration.
10:34So I began to realize that God gives the inspiration.
10:38How we use it and how we apply it,
10:41that's on us.
10:42But how can you say that inspiration comes from something else?
10:47If you do that,
10:48you're basically making Satan the creator and not God.
10:51And I can truly tell you that this song,
10:54All Along the Watchtower,
10:55that's beautiful music.
10:56That's one of my favorites.
10:58And it's just one in this long line of songs that when I began to hear it,
11:03I started to hear things that,
11:05for me,
11:05it carried a deeper spiritual meaning.
11:08That song was,
11:09if I remember correctly,
11:10and you'll correct me if I'm wrong,
11:11I think it was like 1967.
11:13So it's just right before the Jesus movement started to form.
11:18This was happening all across the music industry.
11:21Yeah.
11:22You know,
11:23and again,
11:24my connection in the church was started out musically with the hymnology of the church.
11:33I have a saying,
11:34and I actually believe this,
11:37that if you lost the Bible,
11:41there's enough good doctrine in a hymnal to get you through.
11:47Now,
11:48something shifted in the 60s.
11:52And for anyone that may be wondering,
11:55like,
11:56where are we going with this?
11:58Is music good?
11:59Is music bad?
12:01Music,
12:02music's been the center of my life.
12:04It's not that the church music that we see today is not good.
12:10There's a lot of great stuff.
12:12Sometimes what's happened is the emotionalism.
12:15And as we shift more towards Vineyard,
12:17you can see that it's what it kind of replaced.
12:22The emotionalism of music.
12:26And you can see John Collins talking about it,
12:29the emotions that it stirs in John.
12:32And this emotion that you just saw in John is what stirred all of us
12:37in the late 70s at Vineyard.
12:42But let me go back.
12:441961.
12:46America is changing.
12:50JFK is president.
12:52John Wimber is 26 years old.
12:55And he and a friend of his named Mike Patterson
12:59get two guys together
13:01who they thought could sing and could sing pretty good.
13:04And these two guys,
13:05their name was Bobby Hatfield and Bill Medley.
13:08And John Wimber at 26 years old
13:10forms the Righteous Brothers.
13:13Okay.
13:14And I don't know, John,
13:15if you're very aware of the Righteous Brothers music.
13:17You probably are.
13:19But you look on those albums,
13:21those albums say arranged and conducted by Johnny Wimber.
13:26And so, what happens is at 26 years old,
13:30John is at his peak in the music business.
13:35Saxophone was his number one instrument,
13:37but he could do it all.
13:39And he was in Vegas every week,
13:43making more money than he ever thought possible.
13:46He had a wife.
13:48He had four kids.
13:49His personal life was an absolute mess.
13:52Okay.
13:53He was hardly a Christian.
13:54He was drinking too much.
13:56He was doing drugs.
13:57But musically, he's at the top of his game.
14:01Okay.
14:02He's part of this whole culture.
14:06And I tell you,
14:08something happened to him
14:10when my father and mother
14:13invited he and Carol to their home
14:16and they became Christians.
14:18And for those of you that don't like John Wimber,
14:21you're not going to like what I am going to say.
14:23If those of you that love John Wimber,
14:25you'll like this.
14:26John did something that I don't know that I could do.
14:30John walked away from all of it.
14:33Me becoming a Christian didn't cost me any money.
14:37It cost job.
14:38John, his position in the music business,
14:42he walked away from it all with no job,
14:45no money.
14:46Who does that?
14:48This was a man serious about God.
14:51Okay.
14:52But he was a rock and roller.
14:54And he was used to that lifestyle.
14:58And he was an entertainer as well.
15:01And over time,
15:03he probably thought that entertainment part of him
15:06was done.
15:08But it most certainly was not.
15:11Because there was change coming
15:13that was exacerbated by what was happening
15:16in the 60s.
15:18By 63,
15:19by the end of,
15:22towards the end of 62,
15:23the Beatles hit
15:24in
15:25England.
15:28By
15:28the 22nd of November,
15:31in that same year,
15:32JFK is assassinated.
15:34The Beatles come to the United States
15:36shortly thereafter.
15:37And musically,
15:39the world explodes
15:40with the British invasion.
15:42What does this have to do with Christianity?
15:45Well,
15:46in many ways,
15:47everything with what would happen
15:49within about another five,
15:51six short years
15:52with the Jesus people movement
15:55and music.
15:56It affected it.
15:58So,
15:59I know I've talked a lot
16:00right there,
16:01but
16:02I,
16:02you know,
16:03we can go down this road a lot
16:05because it's,
16:06this affected
16:07Chuck Smith.
16:09It affected
16:10Lonnie Frisbee.
16:11Ultimately,
16:12affected John Wimber
16:13and music.
16:15The music
16:16that
16:16we started
16:18participating in
16:19by the time you got to the 70s
16:21was
16:22unthinkable.
16:23I never thought
16:24we could have guitars
16:25and,
16:26and drums
16:28in a service.
16:30John,
16:30last thing.
16:31Like I say,
16:32I'm a piano tuner.
16:3350 years ago
16:33when I started
16:34tuning pianos,
16:35it was
16:36very rare
16:37for me to go
16:38into any church
16:39and not see an organ.
16:42I never went
16:43into a church
16:4350 years ago
16:44and saw a set of drums.
16:46Now,
16:47it's the opposite.
16:48Am I saying
16:49that's good or bad?
16:50No,
16:50that's not even the point.
16:51It's just
16:52how much
16:53things have changed.
16:55Well,
16:55I've done
16:56several podcasts
16:57on the
16:58manipulation
16:58techniques
16:59of music
17:00because
17:00if you're a musician
17:02you understand
17:02how this works.
17:03If you're not,
17:04you don't realize
17:05how much
17:05your mind
17:06can be swayed
17:07by the music.
17:09And
17:09the organ music,
17:10for example,
17:11this was really big
17:13in these
17:13tent revivals
17:14because you could
17:15set the pace.
17:16Yes.
17:17That,
17:17that,
17:17that pulsation
17:19that the organ
17:19gives in the,
17:20in the,
17:21I don't know
17:21what you call it
17:22inside of it,
17:23but that pulsation
17:24matches your heart rhythm
17:26and you can bring
17:27people to this
17:28calm sense
17:29right before the
17:29service starts.
17:30That's one of the
17:31reasons why the organ
17:32was chosen.
17:33But the guitars,
17:35my,
17:36my family was really
17:37strong against
17:38guitars in church.
17:39In fact,
17:40my grandfather was
17:41against guitars
17:42in general.
17:43All of it comes
17:44back to the time
17:45period that you're
17:46talking about.
17:47Not many people
17:48realize this
17:49and it's one
17:50of the things
17:50that just
17:51really excites
17:52me.
17:52Elvis Presley,
17:54he was so popular
17:55because he blended
17:56his bluesy style
17:58with the style
17:59from the,
18:00the black churches.
18:01He was hearing
18:02how the black churches
18:04and,
18:05and churches
18:05that were
18:06mimicking that
18:07style,
18:08how that could
18:09be applied
18:09to old,
18:11you know,
18:12honky tonk music,
18:13country music,
18:14and he basically
18:14blended all this
18:15together and formed
18:16a,
18:17not unique,
18:18but a new brand
18:19of rock and roll
18:20and the hips
18:22weighing all of this.
18:23It came from that
18:24beat that really
18:25came from the,
18:26from the black
18:27style singing
18:29worship songs.
18:30Elvis Presley
18:31for us in the cult
18:32was number one
18:33public enemy.
18:34It wasn't just
18:35we could not listen
18:36to rock and roll,
18:37but Elvis
18:37specifically,
18:38we were actually
18:40forbidden as a
18:41weird rule.
18:42We could not even
18:43name our children
18:44Elvis as if we
18:45wanted to,
18:46but that was one
18:47of the rules that
18:47stuck in
18:482012.
18:49We're telling,
18:50I'm hearing sermons
18:51how we can't
18:52name our child
18:52Elvis.
18:53That's how bad
18:54they viewed Elvis.
18:56And it's because
18:57he was mixing
18:58this gospel style
18:59beat with rock
19:01and roll themes
19:01and music.
19:02Yeah.
19:02And they saw
19:03this as condemnation
19:04instead of inspiration.
19:06And then I heard
19:07him sing
19:08Only Believe,
19:09which was the theme
19:10song for our
19:11entire religion.
19:12Oh my God.
19:13Oh my God.
19:13I'm hearing all
19:14these weird mixtures.
19:15It's kind of crazy.
19:16Yeah.
19:17But one of the
19:19other songs,
19:19so I'm going to
19:20get crazy excited.
19:21And like you said,
19:23that is the feeling.
19:24That's why people
19:25adopted this.
19:27I heard the
19:28Rolling Stones,
19:29the song
19:30Sympathy for the Devil.
19:32The first time
19:33I saw the music
19:35come into the,
19:36it was in one
19:37of the top charts.
19:37I can't remember
19:38what year.
19:38But when I saw
19:39that,
19:40instantly I hated it
19:41because of the title,
19:43Sympathy for the Devil.
19:44And I listened to it
19:45and I'll be honest,
19:46the first time I listened
19:47to it,
19:47my mind was still
19:48programmed.
19:49I thought this is evil,
19:51these guys are
19:51worshipping Satan,
19:52all of the stuff
19:53that's in my head.
19:55But after I was able
19:56to critically think,
19:57it is one of the
19:58most amazing songs ever.
20:00It mentions all the
20:01things that you just
20:02mentioned,
20:02JFK,
20:03all of this timeline.
20:04But it's showing you
20:06how evil
20:06has swayed
20:08the history
20:09of the world.
20:11And it goes
20:12all the way
20:12back to where
20:14Satan from the
20:15beginning was
20:15swaying evil
20:16in the world
20:17and takes you
20:18all the way
20:18to the modern times.
20:20And then I heard
20:21this song,
20:22I don't know
20:22if you've heard it,
20:23but there's a song
20:24that also came out,
20:25I think this one
20:26was also before
20:27the Jesus Movement.
20:28It's the,
20:29I think it's even
20:30called Prodigal Son.
20:32And it's basically
20:33this retelling
20:34of the Prodigal Son
20:37themes from the Bible.
20:38And in fact,
20:40the Rolling Stones
20:40had a cover
20:41on one of the,
20:43I think it was even
20:44one of the albums
20:45had a cover
20:45by some famous
20:48minister.
20:48So they were working
20:50hand in hand
20:51with religion
20:51to tell a story.
20:54And that story
20:55was more appealing
20:55because we're talking
20:56about a time
20:57when people are
20:58more religious.
20:59Boy,
21:01you know,
21:02going back
21:03to John,
21:04again,
21:04he was
21:05an entertainer.
21:08when John
21:08came to Christ,
21:10he sold it all
21:13to follow Christ
21:15without the consideration
21:18that he would ever
21:19be an entertainer again.
21:20Well,
21:21he became
21:22an entertainer again.
21:24And what you and I,
21:28I can't remember,
21:29John,
21:29have you been
21:30a worship leader
21:31or just in a worship
21:33setting as a worship,
21:35in a worship band
21:36or something?
21:37What about you?
21:37I played in the band
21:38in a few services.
21:39I've never been a leader.
21:41Okay.
21:41You know,
21:42I was a worship leader
21:43at Calvary Chapel
21:44for some years
21:45and then I was
21:45on worship teams
21:47at Vineyard Anaheim.
21:49And so I'm aware
21:51of,
21:52you know,
21:53hey,
21:54people thought
21:54I was anointed.
21:55Why?
21:56I play a decent piano.
21:59I know the Bible
22:00halfway.
22:00I know about God.
22:02Knowing God
22:03and knowing about God,
22:04two different things.
22:05And so,
22:06you know,
22:07I saw
22:08what the emotions
22:09could do.
22:09I used to do
22:10a song
22:11when I led worship.
22:12I would do,
22:13and it was actually
22:14Elvis Presley
22:15did the song.
22:16Elvis Presley's
22:17How Great Thou Art.
22:19We did that
22:20and I could,
22:21let me tell you,
22:22I could crescendo
22:23on the piano
22:23and get the emotions
22:25flowing on that thing.
22:27And the thing
22:28about emotions
22:30is that
22:31here's what we know.
22:33emotions go up,
22:35emotions go down.
22:38And the bigger picture,
22:40John,
22:41in all this,
22:42as you have done
22:43all this work
22:44with this historical institute,
22:46is seeing these periods
22:48of time
22:49with the spirit moving.
22:51Now,
22:52what spirit
22:53that is
22:54that's moving
22:54could be up
22:55for conjecture,
22:56okay?
22:56but
22:59I always
23:00want to look
23:01and see
23:01what's happened
23:02to that,
23:03those people
23:0420 years
23:05after that
23:06died out.
23:07And I can tell you
23:09that I live here
23:09in Yorba Linda
23:12where Vineyard
23:13was in its heyday.
23:15And
23:17I don't want
23:18to tell you
23:18that it's dead,
23:19but
23:20Vineyard Anaheim
23:21is no more.
23:22It's in ashes,
23:24okay?
23:24It's done.
23:25It's over.
23:26And the people,
23:27I don't know,
23:28John,
23:28if you're aware
23:29of right now
23:30the fastest growing
23:31church
23:32in America.
23:33Now,
23:34this is kind
23:34of a trick question,
23:36but you'll get it.
23:37The fastest growing
23:39church in America
23:40right now
23:41is the church
23:42at home
23:44on the couch.
23:46It's people
23:47who have decided,
23:48you know,
23:48I'm saved.
23:50I'm done.
23:51I don't trust
23:52the church anymore.
23:53I'm done.
23:54And this is
23:56a sad commentary.
23:57People have
23:58given up.
23:59The emotions
24:00died out.
24:01And the emotions
24:03of what happened,
24:04and I was there
24:05in the middle
24:05of the whole
24:06Calvary Chapel.
24:07I loved those,
24:08the music
24:08that they did.
24:10And then,
24:11but to be honest
24:12with you,
24:13people don't know this,
24:14but Calvary Chapel
24:15in the day
24:15on a Sunday morning,
24:17if you went to
24:17Calvary Chapel
24:18on a Sunday morning,
24:19there were no
24:20worship bands.
24:21You did hymns.
24:22You sang
24:23Oh,
24:23For a Thousand
24:24Tongues to Sing
24:25and Holy,
24:26Holy,
24:26Holy.
24:29But Calvary Chapel
24:30didn't have
24:31worship bands.
24:32That didn't happen
24:33until John Wimber
24:36and Calvary Chapel
24:37Yorba Linda
24:38started doing it
24:40in the late 70s.
24:42That was the only place,
24:44at least in California,
24:46that you had that.
24:47And it was wonderful.
24:49It was emotional.
24:51But guess what
24:52happened over time?
24:53We tired
24:54of that
24:56liturgy
24:57and we needed
24:58a new drug.
25:00What was that
25:01new drug?
25:02Well,
25:03the Holy Spirit
25:04healing
25:05the Christian life.
25:08Oh,
25:09friends,
25:10we're going to die.
25:10John's gone.
25:12My dad's gone.
25:13I'm on the home stretch.
25:15I'm going to die.
25:17And
25:19I want God
25:20to heal me,
25:21but what I want
25:22Him to heal
25:23is my heart.
25:24That's what I need
25:25is I need
25:26this heart healed
25:27before I die
25:29because I'm going
25:30to die.
25:31And so,
25:32these emotions
25:33that we've lived
25:34off of
25:35won't
25:36last.
25:37Most of the
25:38Christian life
25:39is met
25:40with pain.
25:42That's been
25:43my experience,
25:44John.
25:44Well,
25:45and that's just it.
25:45The pain,
25:46I think people
25:47were feeling
25:48the pain
25:48and the music
25:49was a response
25:50to this,
25:50not just within
25:51the Christian circle.
25:52As you go outside
25:53of it,
25:54there was,
25:55I don't know
25:55if you've seen
25:55the movie or not.
25:56It was a great movie
25:58and I'm drawing
25:59a blank on the name
26:00of it,
26:00but the movie
26:00that came out
26:01recently about
26:02Bob Dylan.
26:03Bob Dylan,
26:04his music.
26:05Like a Rolling Stone.
26:06Like a Rolling Stone.
26:07His music is phenomenal.
26:09I don't so much
26:10like his voice,
26:11which is kind of funny,
26:12but the words,
26:13the music is great.
26:14Well,
26:15he was appealing
26:16to an audience
26:16that were hurting
26:17and a lot of his lyrics,
26:20if you go back
26:21to the Bible themes,
26:22he is using themes
26:23from the Bible
26:24and then adding,
26:26constantly adding
26:27modern words to it,
26:28right?
26:28Constantly.
26:29So he has basically
26:30primed a subset
26:31of America
26:32to be more receptive
26:34to this kind of music.
26:35And to your point,
26:36the music style
26:37that came out
26:38during the Jesus movement,
26:40it would have been taboo
26:42had not all of these others
26:43paved the groundwork
26:44where people,
26:46the average person
26:46could now come into church
26:47and recognize this
26:49as this is the way
26:51that music is moving me.
26:53Whereas before,
26:54it was just the organ,
26:55it was slow,
26:56it was solemn.
26:57That kind of music,
26:59I hate to say it,
27:01while it is worship,
27:02it did not appeal
27:04to people
27:04who were broken
27:05and hurting.
27:05So you had people
27:07like Bob Dylan,
27:08you had the Rolling Stones,
27:09you had all of these
27:10groups of music genres
27:12that were coming together,
27:13bringing Bible themes
27:14and opening hearts
27:16that could then join
27:18the Jesus movement
27:20and the music
27:20would appeal to them.
27:21So it was as though
27:23there were these stages
27:25of leading up
27:26to the Jesus movement
27:27that started way
27:28before the date
27:28that,
27:29what is it,
27:30late 1968,
27:31I think,
27:32that they credit
27:33the movement
27:34from starting.
27:34I say it started
27:35much before.
27:36I agree.
27:37Yeah, I agree.
27:38Yeah, and look,
27:40these worship,
27:43these debates on worship
27:44have been going on
27:46a long time.
27:47You have to understand
27:48that when you look
27:50through a hymnal,
27:51there's hymns
27:52you might look through
27:52there.
27:53Yeah, for instance,
27:54the song
27:54What a Friend We Have
27:56in Jesus.
27:56You know that one,
27:57right?
27:58Who doesn't?
27:59When I say who doesn't,
28:00that's actually kind
28:01of a foolish question.
28:02My kids wouldn't
28:03know that song
28:04because my kids
28:05weren't raised.
28:06We have a whole
28:07generation of kids
28:08now that have no idea
28:09about a church hymnal,
28:10have no idea
28:11about a mighty fortress
28:12as our God.
28:14But the point is
28:15is that when
28:16What a Friend We Have
28:17in Jesus came out
28:18or Leaning on the
28:20Everlasting Arms
28:21came out,
28:22that was scandalous
28:23in the church.
28:24There were people
28:24that said
28:25that is not
28:26a hymn.
28:28We need
28:29Charles Wesley's
28:31Hark the Herald Angels
28:32Sing
28:33or Luther's
28:34A Mighty Fortress
28:34Is Our God
28:36with that kind
28:37of theology
28:38and that kind
28:38of style.
28:39And so,
28:40the worship debates
28:42have been going
28:43on a long time.
28:44I think the
28:45discouraging thing
28:46now,
28:46and we know this
28:47generally about
28:48the culture,
28:49we know the culture
28:50is changing.
28:51I think what's
28:51alarming to us
28:52is how quickly
28:54the culture
28:54is changing.
28:56What's going to
28:57happen in two years?
28:58I mean,
28:59it's just
29:00fascinating.
29:00I can remember
29:01saying to my wife
29:02a couple years ago,
29:03I'm so glad I won't
29:04be around to see
29:05this AI thing.
29:06Oh,
29:07wrong,
29:07wrong,
29:08wrong,
29:08wrong.
29:09Now,
29:10for me now,
29:10as I'm slowing up,
29:12I'm still tuning
29:13pianos,
29:14but understand,
29:16John,
29:16these worship wars
29:17are going on.
29:19I am in,
29:21I tune pianos
29:22at a lot of churches.
29:23I always tell
29:24pastors when I
29:25meet them
29:26that they have
29:27the third hardest
29:28job in the church,
29:29and I'm serious.
29:32The third hardest
29:34job is the pastor.
29:35The second hardest
29:36job is the pastor's
29:37wife.
29:38The hardest job
29:39in a church
29:40is music pastor.
29:42I am in churches
29:44now that are
29:45doing hip-hop music.
29:47Wow.
29:48Oh,
29:48no,
29:48I see it.
29:49Hip-hop music
29:50is in some
29:50of these churches.
29:51Now,
29:53depending on
29:54your age,
29:55if I talk
29:55to an older
29:56person,
29:56they will have
29:57a look that
29:57you just gave.
29:58Are you kidding
29:59me?
29:59I can't,
30:00you know,
30:01and of course,
30:01then the other
30:02thing is,
30:03well,
30:03if it ministers
30:04to them,
30:05okay?
30:06So,
30:06so,
30:07so the problem
30:08is,
30:08is that the church
30:09starts to
30:11fragment
30:11and in
30:14regards to
30:15unity
30:16and what
30:17worship is
30:18and so
30:19there's a part
30:20of me that
30:20misses the
30:21simplicity
30:23of the
30:24hymnal.
30:25And I
30:26loved so
30:27many of the
30:28songs that
30:29we did in
30:30the day that
30:30were good.
30:31There were
30:31some that
30:32weren't so
30:32good.
30:33There was
30:33some that
30:34theology was
30:35not good
30:36and some
30:38of the,
30:38you guys,
30:39the Christian
30:39life is met
30:41with.
30:41We are
30:41just all
30:42muddling
30:43our way
30:43through life.
30:44People tend
30:45to view,
30:46like John
30:46Wimber,
30:47good or
30:47bad,
30:48you know,
30:50we have
30:51to,
30:52you know,
30:53I live here
30:53in Yorba Linda,
30:54kind of
30:55sidetracking
30:56a bit.
30:57Here in
30:57Yorba Linda,
30:58Yorba Linda
30:59is known
30:59because it's
31:00the birthplace
31:01of the 37th
31:02President of
31:03the United
31:03States,
31:03Richard Nixon.
31:04Okay?
31:05I am a
31:06docent at
31:07the library
31:07there.
31:08I lead
31:08tours.
31:08I've got
31:09one tomorrow
31:09morning.
31:12And what
31:13I say
31:14about Richard
31:14Nixon,
31:15and this
31:15is similar
31:16to John
31:16Wimber and
31:17so many
31:18leaders.
31:19Richard Nixon
31:20was like a
31:21layer cake.
31:22The first
31:22layer of
31:23Nixon was
31:23patriot.
31:24The next
31:25layer was
31:27mistrusting.
31:28The next
31:29layer is
31:30loving family
31:31man.
31:31The next
31:32layer is
31:33vindictive.
31:33He's all
31:34those things.
31:35You want
31:35to know what
31:35Nixon's like?
31:36Take a bite
31:36of that cake.
31:37He's all
31:37those things.
31:38And then
31:39I tell
31:39people,
31:39you know
31:40who else
31:40is like
31:40that?
31:41Me.
31:42So when
31:43we come
31:44to John
31:44Wimber,
31:46John's
31:47like a
31:47layer cake.
31:48Okay?
31:50Wimber is
31:51when people
31:51tend to
31:52think,
31:52and I've
31:52seen it
31:53from reading
31:53some of
31:54the comments
31:54on these
31:55podcasts,
31:56there are
31:57people that
31:57say,
31:57oh,
31:57Wimber was
31:58evil.
31:58That's
31:59fascinating
31:59to me.
32:02John was
32:04like me,
32:05a mixed
32:06bag,
32:07seeing if
32:08I can
32:08shorten the
32:10list of
32:10hypocrisies in
32:12my life
32:12before I
32:14die.
32:14That's my
32:15goal.
32:16So in all
32:17these movements,
32:19there's good
32:20people, and
32:21there's people
32:22who are
32:22broken and
32:23leaking.
32:25And,
32:25you know,
32:27if the music
32:28ministers to
32:29people,
32:30that's
32:30great.
32:30But remember
32:31people,
32:32the emotions
32:33will die.
32:34The emotions
32:35will die.
32:36And with
32:38Wimber and
32:39Vineyard,
32:40which led
32:40to this
32:41whole,
32:42because we
32:42started out
32:42this whole
32:43thing talking
32:43about what's
32:44happened now
32:45as it's
32:46moved toward
32:46NAR,
32:47the new
32:48apostolic
32:48reformation,
32:49which blows
32:51my mind
32:51that anyone
32:52even could
32:53believe this
32:54is a real
32:54thing.
32:55But I
32:56guess,
32:56John,
32:56there's people
32:57that really
32:57believe in
32:58this new
32:59apostolic,
32:59it's
33:00hilarious to
33:01me.
33:01I just,
33:02I can't
33:02believe we've
33:03gone that
33:03far.
33:05And I
33:06know I
33:06just covered
33:07a lot of
33:07material,
33:08but you
33:09and I
33:09started three
33:10podcasts ago
33:11talking about
33:11what led
33:12to NAR,
33:13and all
33:15this is a
33:16mixture that
33:17I'm sure
33:18the enemy
33:19used,
33:23and it's
33:24very sad
33:25that where
33:26it's led
33:26to is
33:27that the
33:28fastest
33:28growing
33:28church
33:29is the
33:30church
33:30on the
33:31couch.
33:32COVID
33:32obviously
33:33exacerbated
33:34that.
33:35Have you
33:35ever wondered
33:36how the
33:36Pentecostal
33:37movement started,
33:38or how the
33:39progression of
33:40modern Pentecostalism
33:41transitioned through
33:42the latter reign,
33:43charismatic,
33:44and other fringe
33:45movements into
33:46the new
33:46apostolic
33:47reformation?
33:48You can learn
33:49this and more
33:50on William Branham
33:51Historical Research's
33:52website,
33:53william-branham.org.
33:55On the books
33:56page of the
33:57website,
33:57you can find
33:58the compiled
33:59research of
34:00John Collins,
34:01Charles Paisley,
34:02Stephen Montgomery,
34:03John McKinnon,
34:04and others,
34:05with links to
34:06the paper,
34:06audio,
34:07and digital
34:08versions of
34:09each book.
34:09You can also
34:10find resources
34:11and documentation
34:12on various
34:13people and
34:14topics related
34:15to those
34:15movements.
34:16If you want
34:17to contribute
34:17to the cause,
34:18you can support
34:19the podcast
34:20by clicking
34:21the contribute
34:21button at
34:22the top.
34:23And as
34:23always,
34:24be sure to
34:24like and
34:25subscribe to
34:26the audio
34:26or video
34:27version that
34:27you're listening
34:28to or watching.
34:29On behalf of
34:30William Branham
34:30Historical Research,
34:32we want to
34:32thank you for
34:33your support.
34:34So let's talk
34:35about some
34:36weird histories.
34:37I have studied
34:38music to no end
34:39and I've studied
34:40all of the
34:41different things
34:41that you've
34:42mentioned to
34:42no end.
34:43But let's
34:44start in a
34:44weird place.
34:45So Yorblenda
34:45is where John
34:46Wimber started
34:48this big movement.
34:51Yorblenda,
34:51as you mentioned,
34:52is tied to
34:53Richard Nixon.
34:54Richard Nixon,
34:55as I have
34:56presented in
34:57multiple books
34:58and multiple
34:59videos,
35:00is strongly
35:00tied to this
35:01weird movement
35:02that I came
35:03out of.
35:03I've got
35:04photographs of
35:05William Branham
35:06sitting in a
35:08room where
35:08Richard Nixon
35:10is telling all
35:11the evangelical
35:12people that
35:13the battle
35:14is in the
35:15minds and
35:15we need you
35:16ministers to
35:17get into
35:17their heads.
35:18If you
35:18paraphrase
35:19what he's
35:19saying,
35:19he's saying
35:20get into
35:20the people's
35:21heads because
35:23exactly what
35:24you said,
35:25people are
35:25starting to
35:26deconvert and
35:26think they
35:27don't even
35:27need the
35:28religion.
35:28That was
35:29the whole
35:29speech that
35:30he gave.
35:30And then
35:31later,
35:32I've got a
35:33book,
35:34Weaponized
35:35Religion from
35:36Lateran to
35:37Colonia
35:37Dignidad,
35:38where Nixon
35:39is working
35:39with one of
35:40the more
35:42sinister
35:43compounds of
35:44the movement
35:45that I
35:45escaped that
35:46was working
35:46with the
35:47Nazis.
35:47It's a
35:48crazy history.
35:48I won't go
35:49there in
35:49this podcast.
35:50But now
35:51take that
35:51backwards in
35:52time.
35:52So you've
35:53got this
35:54movement which
35:55is using
35:56all means
35:57possible to
35:58convince the
35:59minds to
36:00believe whatever
36:02it is they're
36:02preaching from
36:03the evangelical
36:03side.
36:04Some of it
36:05good, some
36:05of it bad.
36:07They were
36:08using music as
36:10a tool long
36:11before Wimber.
36:12I've mentioned
36:13the organs, how
36:14the tent
36:15revivals would
36:16use these
36:16things.
36:17Well, whenever
36:18I learned that
36:19Elvis Presley
36:20was the one
36:21who really
36:22popularized the
36:23Only Believe
36:23song, I
36:25found out in
36:25history that it
36:26wasn't the first
36:27time it was
36:28popular.
36:29Back during the
36:30Christian and
36:32Missionary Alliance
36:33days, during its
36:34heyday, they
36:35wanted a way to
36:38assimilate parts
36:39of Africa.
36:39And the problem
36:41that they had is
36:41that the music
36:43from their
36:44style of worship
36:44was so
36:45simplified and
36:47had really
36:48gone astray
36:49from what the
36:50beautiful hymnal
36:51music that you're
36:52talking about
36:52was, they
36:54needed something
36:55that was more
36:55appealing to the
36:56tribes in Africa.
36:57And so what
36:59they did was
36:59they went to
37:00the growing and
37:02developing jazz
37:04industry, and
37:06they started to
37:06combine jazz
37:07themes and the
37:08jazz beat with
37:09Christian lyrics,
37:10and they
37:11created the
37:11song Only
37:11Believe.
37:12So it was
37:13actually made to
37:14try to persuade
37:15people of a
37:16different tribe,
37:17right?
37:18Go back further
37:19in time.
37:20William Branham's
37:21mentor, as we've
37:22mentioned, Roy
37:23Davis, was in
37:24the Klan, and
37:26he was the second
37:27in command of
37:27the Klan.
37:28Most people, when
37:30you say that word,
37:31they're thinking
37:31that this is just
37:32solely a group
37:34that hates black
37:35people.
37:36But that's not
37:37true.
37:37That's how
37:38Hollywood portrays
37:39it.
37:39It was actually
37:40a religious
37:40institution.
37:41It was a, more
37:43to the point, it
37:44was a religious
37:45fraternal order.
37:47That fraternal
37:48order was to try
37:49to persuade
37:50people to
37:51believe the
37:52Christian themes
37:52and ideology
37:53that the Klan
37:54stood for.
37:56Well, Branham's
37:56mentor, the way
37:57that he persuaded
37:58people, was
37:59through music.
38:00In fact, if you
38:01read any of the
38:02newspaper articles
38:03that talks about
38:04how he was
38:05bringing the music
38:06to the people,
38:07the people would
38:07come for the big
38:08revival to hear
38:09him sing, hear
38:10his bands, he
38:11had these
38:12competition choirs
38:14that would sing
38:14with him, I
38:16found him hosting
38:17one of the
38:20quartet conventions
38:21out in Los
38:22Angeles.
38:23So not far from
38:24where the area
38:25you're talking
38:25about, he's
38:26bringing all the
38:27Christian musicians
38:28around in the
38:29Los Angeles area
38:30during the years
38:32that the California
38:33clan was developing
38:34and rebirthing
38:35itself, 1944,
38:391945, and it
38:41wasn't long after
38:41that that the
38:42third wave of the
38:43clan swept across
38:44the United States.
38:45Well, he's there
38:46and the newspaper
38:47article mentions
38:48something really
38:49odd.
38:49I still don't know
38:50what to make of
38:51it.
38:52In the article
38:53where he's the
38:54emcee and all
38:55of these famous
38:56groups are coming
38:56in, names that I
38:57recognize, Blackwood
38:58Brothers, some
38:59other, I think
39:00Blackwood Brothers,
39:02these groups are
39:03coming to hear
39:03him because he
39:05was the emcee due
39:06to the fact that
39:07he was in the
39:08original Stamps
39:09Quartet, if you
39:10believe the
39:11newspaper article.
39:13Stamps Quartet
39:14was J.D.
39:15Sumner and the
39:15Stamps who sang
39:18as the pre-show
39:21for Elvis
39:21Presley.
39:22So now this
39:24would have been a
39:24different group,
39:25the Stamps had
39:26different iterations,
39:26but all of this
39:28to link back,
39:29you can link all
39:30the way in circle
39:31all the way back
39:32to Elvis Presley,
39:33which is weird.
39:35And I grew up
39:36listening to J.D.
39:37Sumner and the
39:37Stamps.
39:38He held the
39:39world's record
39:40in the, I think
39:41he's the only
39:41person in the
39:43Guinness Book of
39:44World Records
39:45for having the
39:46lowest vocal
39:47chords.
39:49I think it was
39:50seven notes below
39:51the last key on
39:52the piano.
39:53So all of this
39:54weird history to
39:55say music was a
39:57tool.
39:57I found one
39:59article where
39:59Roy Davis, he
40:00was well known
40:01for all kinds
40:02of things, many
40:02of them sexual
40:03immorality.
40:05Newspapers labeled
40:06him a singer
40:07and a masher.
40:08And back during
40:09the day, a masher
40:10meant somebody who
40:11would go after
40:11your wife if you
40:12got them in the
40:13same room.
40:14So he was
40:16attracting people
40:17by music long
40:18before the Jesus
40:19movement ever
40:20started, and they
40:21were using songs
40:23that would have
40:23been taboo for
40:24their era.
40:25So when I look
40:27at the Jesus
40:27movement, and the
40:28big excitement is
40:29they brought
40:31excitement into
40:32the music.
40:32They brought
40:33modern style into
40:34the music in
40:351968.
40:36Well, you can
40:37almost go back
40:38every single
40:39decade in time,
40:40which I partially
40:41did right here.
40:42You can find
40:44somebody else who
40:45is doing this
40:46because music
40:47was a tool.
40:48I can go back
40:49all the way to
40:50the early 1800s.
40:51Music is still a
40:52tool as far back
40:53in time as you
40:54go.
40:54Something that
40:55maybe could
40:56encourage people
40:58and get the
40:58correct view about
41:00church music, which
41:02can be all over
41:03the map, I think
41:04the mistake would
41:05be to view that
41:08your church and
41:09the music is
41:10good, bad,
41:13whatever.
41:14When I am in
41:15tuning pianos, I
41:16was at a
41:17Presbyterian church
41:18recently, and I
41:19asked the pastor,
41:20hey, what's the
41:22music like?
41:22The worship like
41:24at your service.
41:25And he said to
41:26me, you know,
41:27Bruce, we have a
41:29blended service,
41:30which is code for
41:32nobody's really
41:33happy.
41:34Okay?
41:36And so he's
41:37trying to mix,
41:38you know, some
41:39praise music with
41:40guitars and then
41:41a hymn here and
41:42there.
41:43And of course, the
41:44tendency, if you're
41:45an older person who
41:46likes the hymns,
41:47that's the good
41:48stuff and the other
41:49stuff is the bad
41:50stuff.
41:50And so it's
41:51not that any
41:54of this stuff
41:55per se that
41:57is directed in
41:58praise towards
41:58God is bad.
42:01What's bad is
42:03what it can,
42:04especially when
42:06it comes to the
42:07emotional music,
42:08and that's what
42:08John Collins is
42:09talking about here,
42:11this emotional
42:12thing that we're
42:13talking about that
42:14can manipulate,
42:15that is what
42:18is potentially
42:20bad because
42:21it's what it's
42:22replaced.
42:23It's replaced
42:25the day-in,
42:27day-out
42:28grind of the
42:31Christian life
42:32which is met
42:32with pain,
42:34which is met
42:35with disappointment,
42:36which is met
42:37with children
42:39being sick,
42:40with a marriage
42:41that's difficult.
42:45you're not
42:46going to solve
42:47those problems
42:48from singing
42:49an emotional
42:50worship song.
42:51It's not that
42:52it's bad,
42:53it's just
42:54it's what
42:55this stuff
42:55can replace,
42:57and it's the
42:58shortcut that
42:59people think
43:00can get them
43:02into being
43:03spiritual.
43:04A mistake.
43:06Wrong.
43:07So don't
43:08view that
43:09this person's
43:10music is good,
43:11bad,
43:11right,
43:11or wrong.
43:12There's no
43:13shortcuts when
43:14it comes to
43:14God.
43:15There just
43:16isn't.
43:17And that
43:18was probably
43:18my biggest
43:19frustration in
43:21being at
43:21Vineyard is
43:22everybody
43:23wanted a
43:25shortcut.
43:26And John
43:27Wimber,
43:28who was an
43:28entertainer,
43:30in a sense
43:32propagated,
43:33often,
43:34a shortcut.
43:36just come
43:37up after
43:38these emotional
43:39songs,
43:40ask the
43:40Holy Spirit
43:41to come in
43:42you,
43:42walk out,
43:43and your
43:43issues will
43:43be dealt
43:44with.
43:45And John,
43:46you were in
43:47a cult.
43:49And again,
43:50I can't,
43:51I was in a
43:51different thing
43:52than you.
43:53I was fortunate
43:54to be in
43:55Vineyard compared
43:56to what you
43:57went through
43:58in Branham.
43:59So you went
44:00through a
44:01different thing.
44:01I can't
44:02imagine.
44:04mine was
44:06an emotional
44:07thing that
44:08got us
44:09swept up,
44:10but I will
44:11say that
44:1125 years
44:13later,
44:14after John
44:15Wimber died,
44:17it's a
44:17shell of
44:18what it was
44:19here in
44:19Yorba,
44:19Linda.
44:20A shell.
44:21I look at
44:22music a lot
44:23differently than
44:23a lot of
44:24other people
44:25who are
44:25my peers.
44:27Usually,
44:27my peers will
44:28look at the
44:29music as
44:30though it
44:30must be
44:31worship,
44:31it must
44:32be a
44:33certain
44:34style,
44:34a certain
44:34technique.
44:35If you
44:35stray from
44:36that
44:36technique,
44:37then you're
44:38really
44:38straying from
44:39the worship
44:39and it's
44:39more about
44:40the music
44:40than the
44:40people.
44:41There's all
44:42this weirdness
44:43about music.
44:44I don't look
44:45at it like
44:46this.
44:46Music is a
44:47vehicle.
44:48And a
44:48vehicle takes
44:49you wherever
44:50you turn the
44:50steering wheel
44:51to drive.
44:52Whenever I
44:53look at
44:53music,
44:53I don't
44:54look at
44:55it in
44:56such a way
44:57that it
44:57has to be
44:58contained in
44:58a box.
45:00Because of
45:00the exact
45:01problem that
45:01you mentioned,
45:03all of the
45:03older people,
45:04they're more
45:05comfortable with
45:05the older
45:06style songs
45:07because that's
45:07what they're
45:08familiar with.
45:09That makes
45:09them feel
45:10happy.
45:11That is
45:11taking the
45:12wheel and
45:13the vehicle
45:13and turning
45:14it that
45:14direction.
45:15Modern people,
45:16they're listening
45:17to hip-hop
45:18stuff that I
45:18still can't
45:20force myself
45:20to listen
45:21to another
45:21story for
45:22another day.
45:23But it's
45:24because that's
45:24not what I'm
45:25familiar with.
45:25I like the
45:27complexity of
45:28music and
45:29when I
45:29listen to
45:29hip-hop,
45:31often it's
45:32like two or
45:32three notes
45:33and they're
45:33just banging
45:34the same
45:34notes on
45:34the piano.
45:35I like the
45:36really fine
45:36complex music
45:38that invokes
45:39this thought
45:40process in
45:41your head.
45:42But to
45:43be fair,
45:44that's because
45:46I'm in
45:46control of
45:47the vehicle
45:47and it's
45:47taking me
45:48in the
45:48direction I
45:49want.
45:49Not the
45:50direction that
45:51the young
45:51people want.
45:52So true.
45:53John Wimber,
45:55I'm going
45:56to say
45:56something that
45:57the people
45:57who are
45:58fans of
45:58John Wimber
45:59will like.
46:00He had
46:00control of
46:01the wheel
46:01and he
46:02took it
46:02in the
46:03direction
46:03that was
46:05best suited
46:06to appease
46:07the larger
46:07number of
46:08people.
46:08He brought
46:09it back to
46:10this simple
46:10style that
46:11everybody wanted
46:13to get rid
46:14of all of
46:14this fear
46:16and this
46:16burden,
46:17all of the
46:18outside world
46:18pain that
46:19they're suffering
46:20with during
46:21that era.
46:22There were
46:22so many
46:23bad things
46:24happening.
46:24Well, he
46:25gave them
46:25an answer,
46:26come to
46:27us and
46:27there's
46:27peace.
46:28So he
46:28took the
46:28steering wheel
46:29and he
46:29drove it
46:30in the
46:30right
46:31direction.
46:32Does that
46:33mean that
46:33because he
46:34did that,
46:35that's the
46:36same right
46:36direction for
46:37today?
46:38What's not
46:38going to apply
46:39to your
46:39younger crowd
46:40that wants
46:40to hear
46:40hip-hop,
46:41right?
46:41You have
46:42to take
46:43the steering
46:43wheel and
46:43you have
46:44to be in
46:44control of
46:44the vehicle.
46:45For me,
46:46the biggest
46:47problem that
46:47I see,
46:48and this
46:49is not just
46:50in the
46:50destructive
46:50cults,
46:51I'm
46:51talking
46:51widespread,
46:53they're
46:54not
46:54controlling
46:55the vehicle
46:56according to
46:57what the
46:57people need,
46:58but it's
46:59more about
46:59what we
47:00as the
47:01church
47:01want to
47:02say that
47:02is either
47:04our marketing
47:05or our
47:06strategy
47:06or our
47:07technique
47:07or even
47:08simply the
47:09face of
47:10the organization.
47:11In other
47:11words,
47:12this vehicle
47:13is for us,
47:14it's not
47:14for you,
47:14the people.
47:16And for me,
47:16that's problematic.
47:18Music is a
47:19vehicle that
47:19should invite
47:20people to
47:21enjoy,
47:22to like,
47:22to be
47:23inspired.
47:24And you
47:25have to
47:25drive the
47:26vehicle in
47:26the correct
47:26way.
47:27Yeah,
47:28you know,
47:28we've also
47:29in this
47:30age of
47:32options,
47:34my wife
47:35and I
47:35went out
47:35to dinner
47:36the other
47:36night to
47:36a restaurant
47:37that had
47:39a menu
47:39that was
47:39too big.
47:42And I
47:43ordered the
47:44chicken and
47:44later on
47:45wished I
47:45would have
47:46got the
47:46steak.
47:47There were
47:48so many
47:48options on
47:49this menu.
47:51This is
47:52kind of
47:52what's
47:53happened in
47:53the church
47:54today.
47:54There are
47:55so many
47:57options.
47:58People go
47:59from Friday
48:00night going to
48:01see a movie
48:02and you want
48:02to see a
48:02good movie.
48:03And when you
48:04go to dinner,
48:05you want to
48:05have a good
48:05dinner.
48:06And then on
48:07Sunday,
48:07if you decide
48:08you're going
48:09to bulk up
48:10and take a
48:10shower and get
48:11to church,
48:12you want to
48:13go to a
48:13good church.
48:14You want
48:15good music.
48:17There's
48:17nothing worse.
48:18John, you
48:19know this.
48:19This is the
48:20part of you
48:20and I that
48:21are snobs.
48:22There's
48:22nothing worse
48:23than bad
48:24music.
48:25Whatever you
48:26do, do it
48:26well, make
48:27it beautiful.
48:28And when I
48:29go, I want
48:30to hear good
48:30music.
48:31I also want
48:32to hear a
48:32good sermon.
48:34Now, the
48:34problem, sometimes
48:35I look back
48:36at my life,
48:38I would have
48:39rather heard
48:40John Wimber
48:41speak than
48:43heard our
48:44former pastor
48:45at the
48:46Your Belinda
48:47Friends Church
48:47who was
48:48John's
48:48senior pastor.
48:50Why would
48:50I have
48:51rather heard
48:51John?
48:52Oh, he
48:54was far
48:54more
48:54entertaining.
48:56Okay?
48:57Was
48:58John's
48:59content
48:59good?
49:01Not
49:01always.
49:02Okay?
49:03So, the
49:04problem is
49:05that there's
49:06so many
49:07options today.
49:08People can
49:09look for
49:10the flashy.
49:12I want
49:12someone that
49:13will entertain
49:14me from
49:14the pulpit.
49:16And, you
49:17know, this
49:17is part of
49:18the problem.
49:19You know, we've
49:20said some good
49:21things about
49:21John, but the
49:23problem with
49:24John is he
49:25would begin to
49:27say things.
49:28Some of you
49:29have seen that
49:30interview that he
49:31did with Peter
49:32Jennings.
49:32John Collins, I'm
49:34sure you've seen
49:34it, where John
49:35said, look, I
49:36gave up drugs for
49:37this thing.
49:38Have you seen
49:39that one?
49:39Yeah, yeah.
49:41Yeah, you
49:42know, and you
49:44know for a
49:45fact, if John
49:46came back
49:47today, oh, he'd
49:48hate that he
49:49said that, you
49:50know.
49:51But by that
49:52point, John had
49:53gotten to the
49:53point where he
49:54felt he could
49:55say anything.
49:57And so, when
49:58people are
49:59looking for
49:59churches, try
50:02to be careful
50:03just trying to
50:04find a pastor
50:05that'll tickle
50:06your ears and
50:06say wonderful
50:07things and hold
50:08your interest.
50:10You know,
50:11Christianity is
50:12marked with
50:14difficulty.
50:15If any man
50:17come after me,
50:18let him deny
50:19himself, pick
50:21up his cross.
50:22I used to say
50:24regularly, I
50:27just want to be
50:28like Jesus.
50:29And what I've
50:30learned over the
50:31years is I
50:32really don't.
50:33I only want to
50:34be like Jesus
50:35if it's easy.
50:37don't insult
50:38me.
50:39Lord, make my
50:40life easy.
50:42And if it's
50:43easy, I want to
50:44be like Jesus.
50:45But most of the
50:46time, I really
50:47don't.
50:48And the
50:49Christian life is
50:50marked more
50:51with pain, and
50:53ultimately, we are
50:54going to die.
50:55And this is why
50:56the early
50:57Christians were
50:58just so
50:58incredible.
50:59You know, you
51:00would see people
51:01that would be
51:05taken and
51:06imprisoned, and
51:07many of them
51:08martyred, and
51:09they really
51:10believed that
51:11verse, blessed
51:12are you, and
51:13men shall
51:13revile you, and
51:14persecute you, and
51:15say all manner of
51:16evil against you
51:16falsely for my
51:18sake.
51:19Rejoice and be
51:19exceeding glad, for
51:21great is your
51:21reward in heaven.
51:23So, the
51:24charismatic
51:24movement has
51:26some elements in
51:27it that are
51:27really good, but
51:28it has some
51:29elements in it,
51:30and John
51:30Wimber was a
51:31part of this,
51:32that propagated
51:34emotions through
51:36music, which I
51:37loved, and
51:39shortcuts, which I
51:41grew to loathe,
51:44because God
51:45never has given
51:46me a shortcut.
51:47I've wanted
51:48them, I wish I
51:50could have had
51:51some, but I've
51:52never got
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